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Author Topic: Is this rude?  (Read 2197 times) Average Rating: 0
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Myrrh23
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« on: August 27, 2008, 10:23:27 PM »

As long as you don't do it practically with a megaphone, would it be considered rude to say "From the Father through the Son" while attending Catholic Mass for Catholic family members, even though everyone else around you is saying, "From the Father and the Son"? Thanks!
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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2008, 09:41:11 AM »

As long as you don't do it practically with a megaphone, would it be considered rude to say "From the Father through the Son" while attending Catholic Mass for Catholic family members, even though everyone else around you is saying, "From the Father and the Son"? Thanks!

I don't think it is rude, but why do you think you should attend the Catholic Mass in the first place? What good does it do to you OR to your relatives?
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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2008, 09:49:08 AM »

As long as you don't do it practically with a megaphone, would it be considered rude to say "From the Father through the Son" while attending Catholic Mass for Catholic family members, even though everyone else around you is saying, "From the Father and the Son"? Thanks!
Would anyone notice if you just said "from the Father" and left it at that?  At least this way you're not playing any games with the words.
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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2008, 09:58:03 AM »

If you have to attend Mass out of a promise to a relative I would say the Creed the Orthodox way and I'm sure no one will notice.  It would be weird if people were quiet to listen to how you recite it! Tongue

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« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2008, 10:16:11 AM »

As someone who has had to listen to Roman Catholics seeking shelter from their local happyclappydippy post V2 Latin church literally shout "AND THE SON!" during the singing of the Creed in a filioque-less ByzCath church, it would be quite rude, disruptive and just plain spiteful.  Such an attitude has no place in any Christian church especially from an invited guest.

It would be far more appropriate for you to not even pray along and omit "..and the Son" because the Creed in ICEL English is presently worded in the first person plural ("We believe...") as opposed to the original first person singular.




edit: minor vocabulary change
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2008, 12:01:03 PM »

If you have to attend Mass out of a promise to a relative I would say the Creed the Orthodox way and I'm sure no one will notice.  It would be weird if people were quiet to listen to how you recite it! Tongue

juliana
I attended a Protestant college, and at the beginning of one class we were required to recite the Lord's Prayer. I simply stopped after "deliver us from the evil one." Several noticed, but no one said anything except the professor, who understood Catholic liturgical tradition enough to understand why I'm not used to reciting the rest.
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 12:21:51 PM »

I don't think it is rude, but why do you think you should attend the Catholic Mass in the first place? What good does it do to you OR to your relatives?

My biological mother and my brother are Roman Catholics, not that I would enjoy being with them, much less celebrate some family achievement at their Church. I would just do it for my father, who's a liberal Muslim, but who still wants us to be somewhat of a family...

As someone who has had to listen to Roman Catholics seeking shelter from their local happyclappydippy post V2 Latin church literally shout "AND THE SON!" during the singing of the Creed in a filioque-less ByzCath church, it would be quite rude, disruptive and just plain spiteful.  Such an attitude has no place in any Christian church especially from an invited guest.

It would be far more appropriate for you to not even pray along and omit "..and the Son" because the Creed in ICEL English is presently worded in the first person plural ("We believe...") as opposed to the original first person singular.


LMAO @ the first part! laugh
I don't know if I agree with the latter part. I wouldn't be shouting as if I were at a baseball game, but at the same time, why should I leave my beliefs at the door, even though I'm not yet an officially recognized Orthodox?

I attended a Protestant college, and at the beginning of one class we were required to recite the Lord's Prayer. I simply stopped after "deliver us from the evil one."

That's funny those Protestants would change the Lord's Prayer as it was given to us by Jesus Himself, seeing as how many Protestants are sola scriptura... Tongue
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 01:08:15 PM by Myrrh23 » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 12:54:50 PM »

it would be quite rude, disruptive and just plain spiteful.  Such an attitude has no place in any Christian church especially from an invited guest.


Eactly.

We must respect others beliefs.
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2008, 01:02:47 PM »

I don't know if I agree with the latter part. I wouldn't be shouting as if I at a baseball game, but at the same time, why should I leave my beliefs at the door, even though I'm not yet an officially recognized Orthodox?


You're not leaving them at the door.  Indeed, your silence during the Roman Catholic recitation of the Creed with the Filioque is your statement of belief.  There are Orthodox clergy and laity who would most likely counsel you to not even join in the Our Father. 

I would also add that the simple fact that you feel compelled to ask this question means that your conscience is uncomfortable with the idea.  I've always been raised with the idea that if you have to ask if something is rude or inappropriate, it probably is.
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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2008, 02:10:13 PM »

Something else to think about:

Why would you replace one unauthorized alteration to the Creed with another equally unauthorized alteration to the Creed?  "Through the Son" may be better theology than "and from the Son", but neither was ever properly approved for use in the Creed.

And the "keeping up appearances" part:  Didn't the priest Eleazar show us in 2 Macabees that it's better just to be honest and avoid even the appearance of compromise?
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Myrrh23
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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2008, 02:27:49 PM »

Something else to think about:

Why would you replace one unauthorized alteration to the Creed with another equally unauthorized alteration to the Creed?  "Through the Son" may be better theology than "and from the Son", but neither was ever properly approved for use in the Creed.

And the "keeping up appearances" part:  Didn't the priest Eleazar show us in 2 Macabees that it's better just to be honest and avoid even the appearance of compromise?

Didn't know it was unauthorized.
PTA, eh....you lost me on the "keeping up appearances" thing... Embarrassed
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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2008, 03:20:53 PM »

Didn't know it was unauthorized.
The only authorized statement is that which was drafted in the original wording of the Creed and ratified by the second and subsequent ecumenical councils:  "I believe... in the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father [FULL STOP]."

Quote
PTA, eh....you lost me on the "keeping up appearances" thing... Embarrassed

2 Maccabees 6:18-28 (RSV)

Eleazar, one of the scribes in high position, a man now advanced in age and of noble presence, was being forced to open his mouth to eat swine's flesh.  But he, welcoming death with honor rather than life with pollution, went up to the the rack of his own accord, spitting out the flesh, as men ought to go who have the courage to refuse things that it is not right to taste, even for the natural love of life.

Those who were in charge of that unlawful sacrifice took the man aside, because of their long acquaintance with him, and privately urged him to bring meat of his own providing, proper for him to use, and pretend that he was eating the flesh of the sacrificial meal which had been commanded by the king, so that by doing this he might be saved from death, and be treated kindly on account of his old friendship with them.  But making a high resolve, worthy of his years and the dignity of his old age and the gray hairs which he had reached with distinction and his excellent life even from childhood, and moreover according to the holy God-given law, he declared himself quickly, telling them to send him to Hades.  "Such pretense is not worthy of our time of life," he said, "lest many of the young should suppose that Eleazar in his ninetieth year has gone over to an alien religion, and through my pretense, for the sake of living a brief moment longer, they should be led astray because of me, while I defile and disgrace my old age.  For even if for the present I should avoid the punishment of men, yet whether I live or die I shall not escape the hands of the Almighty.  Therefore, by manfully giving up my life now, I will show myself worthy of my old age and leave to the young a noble example of how to die a good death willingly and nobly for the revered and holy laws."

When he had said this, he went at once to the rack.


Why else would you want to say "THROUGH the Son" except to present the appearance (pretense) that you're reciting the Creed in the Roman way when you're actually not?
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« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2008, 05:00:02 PM »

That's funny those Protestants would change the Lord's Prayer as it was given to us by Jesus Himself, seeing as how many Protestants are sola scriptura... Tongue
Many Protestants, especially evangelicals, also believe that the priesthood of all believers (an Orthodox idea) superseded a liturgical priesthood. Therefore, in their view, it would be correct to corporately recite the priest's part.
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« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2008, 09:32:21 PM »

the Creed in ICEL English is presently worded in the first person plural ("We believe...") as opposed to the original first person singular.


Not that it really matters to this discussion, but the original wording was first person plural, and is still preserved that way in the OO Churches. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2008.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10855.0.html#top

http://www.maderafcc.org/churchfathers/ec.html#1
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Myrrh23
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« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2008, 11:39:41 PM »

Why else would you want to say "THROUGH the Son" except to present the appearance (pretense) that you're reciting the Creed in the Roman way when you're actually not?

I understand. It's like being a poser?
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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2008, 12:04:52 AM »

I understand. It's like being a poser?
If by "poser" (alt. "poseur"?) you mean a person who habitually pretends to be something he is not ("poser." WordNet® 3.0. Princeton University. 28 Aug. 2008. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/poser>.), then yeah, it is like that. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2008, 10:17:42 AM »


Not that it really matters to this discussion, but the original wording was first person plural, and is still preserved that way in the OO Churches. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2008.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10855.0.html#top

http://www.maderafcc.org/churchfathers/ec.html#1

By "original" I was referring to the Latin "original" credo of the Creed in the Roman Ordo Missae from which the ICEL is supposed to be translating.  Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2008, 11:34:42 AM »

I understand. It's like being a poser?
Yes.

PTA: I speak teenager. Grin
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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2008, 04:13:13 PM »

The tangent on teenager-speak has been split off and moved to Other Topics:

I Speak Teenager.
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