Byzantine Catholics.

[Byzantine2008]

I was surfing the net and stumbled across this site. At first I thought it was another Orthodox Forum. Then I opened a topics and discovered that they are pope venerators.

What a sham! Where and when did this rite originate?

It makes my blood boil reading their posts that denigrate our Holy Faith.

Have a browse through it yoursleves.
 

Link Removed


Lord Jesus Christ Son of God Have Mercy on me a sinner


Link was removed as according to forum rules.

-- Friul

[Entscheidungsproblem]

I was surfing the net and stumbled across this site. At first I thought it was another Orthodox Forum.

What a sham! Where and when did this rite originate?

Are you trying to tell me that you have never heard of the sui iuris Eastern-Rite Catholic Churches, many of which follow the Byzantine liturgical tradition?  Also, on that particular forum, there did appear to be Orthodox members.

Then I opened a topics and discovered that they are pope venerators.

I venerate Popes too.  St. Linus, St. Anacletus, St. Clement I, St. Evaristus, St. Alexander I, St. Sixtus I, St. Telesphorus, St. Hyginus, St. Pius I, St. Anicetus, St. Soter, St. Eleutherius, St. Victor I, St. Zephyrinus, St. Callistus I, St. Urban I, St. Pontain, St. Anterus, St. Fabian, St. Cornelius, St. Lucius, St. Stephen I, St. Sixtus II, St. Dionysius, St. Felix I, St. Eutychian, St. Caius, St. Marcellinus, St. Marcellus I, St. Eusebius, St. Miltiades, St. Sylvester I, St. Marcus, St. Julius I, St. Liberius, St. Damasus I, St. Siricius, St. Anastasius I, St. Innocent I, St. Zosimus, St. Boniface I, St. Celestine I, St. Sixtus III, St. Leo I, St. Hilarius, St. Simplicius, St. Felix III, St. Gelasius I, St. Anastasius II, St. Symmachus, St. Hormisdas, St. John I, St. Felix IV, St. Agapetus I, St. Silverius, St. Gregory I, St. Boniface IV, St. Deusdedit, St. Martin I, St. Eugene I, St. Vitalian, St. Agatho, St. Leo II, St. Benedict II, St. Sergius I, St. Gregory II, St. Gregory III, and St. Zachary. 

Holy Orthodox Popes of Old Rome, pray to God for us!

(No I didn't forget all the saintly Popes and Patriarchs of Alexandria and All Africa, but my list was getting long.  )

[Byzantine2008]

Are you trying to tell me that you have never heard of the sui iuris Eastern-Rite Catholic Churches, many of which follow the Byzantine liturgical tradition?  Also, on that particular forum, there did appear to be Orthodox members.

I venerate Popes too.  St. Linus, St. Anacletus, St. Clement I, St. Evaristus, St. Alexander I, St. Sixtus I, St. Telesphorus, St. Hyginus, St. Pius I, St. Anicetus, St. Soter, St. Eleutherius, St. Victor I, St. Zephyrinus, St. Callistus I, St. Urban I, St. Pontain, St. Anterus, St. Fabian, St. Cornelius, St. Lucius, St. Stephen I, St. Sixtus II, St. Dionysius, St. Felix I, St. Eutychian, St. Caius, St. Marcellinus, St. Marcellus I, St. Eusebius, St. Miltiades, St. Sylvester I, St. Marcus, St. Julius I, St. Liberius, St. Damasus I, St. Siricius, St. Anastasius I, St. Innocent I, St. Zosimus, St. Boniface I, St. Celestine I, St. Sixtus III, St. Leo I, St. Hilarius, St. Simplicius, St. Felix III, St. Gelasius I, St. Anastasius II, St. Symmachus, St. Hormisdas, St. John I, St. Felix IV, St. Agapetus I, St. Silverius, St. Gregory I, St. Boniface IV, St. Deusdedit, St. Martin I, St. Eugene I, St. Vitalian, St. Agatho, St. Leo II, St. Benedict II, St. Sergius I, St. Gregory II, St. Gregory III, and St. Zachary. 

Holy Orthodox Popes of Old Rome, pray to God for us!

(No I didn't forget all the saintly Popes and Patriarchs of Alexandria and All Africa, but my list was getting long.  )

Thank you for your sarcasm, its good see you have a sense of humour.

If you love them so much then go and kiss the ring on the current popes hand.

Lord have mercy
 

[Byzantine2008]

Are you trying to tell me that you have never heard of the sui iuris Eastern-Rite Catholic Churches, many of which follow the Byzantine liturgical tradition?  Also, on that particular forum, there did appear to be Orthodox members.

I venerate Popes too.  St. Linus, St. Anacletus, St. Clement I, St. Evaristus, St. Alexander I, St. Sixtus I, St. Telesphorus, St. Hyginus, St. Pius I, St. Anicetus, St. Soter, St. Eleutherius, St. Victor I, St. Zephyrinus, St. Callistus I, St. Urban I, St. Pontain, St. Anterus, St. Fabian, St. Cornelius, St. Lucius, St. Stephen I, St. Sixtus II, St. Dionysius, St. Felix I, St. Eutychian, St. Caius, St. Marcellinus, St. Marcellus I, St. Eusebius, St. Miltiades, St. Sylvester I, St. Marcus, St. Julius I, St. Liberius, St. Damasus I, St. Siricius, St. Anastasius I, St. Innocent I, St. Zosimus, St. Boniface I, St. Celestine I, St. Sixtus III, St. Leo I, St. Hilarius, St. Simplicius, St. Felix III, St. Gelasius I, St. Anastasius II, St. Symmachus, St. Hormisdas, St. John I, St. Felix IV, St. Agapetus I, St. Silverius, St. Gregory I, St. Boniface IV, St. Deusdedit, St. Martin I, St. Eugene I, St. Vitalian, St. Agatho, St. Leo II, St. Benedict II, St. Sergius I, St. Gregory II, St. Gregory III, and St. Zachary. 

Holy Orthodox Popes of Old Rome, pray to God for us!



(No I didn't forget all the saintly Popes and Patriarchs of Alexandria and All Africa, but my list was getting long.  )

Its sympathisers like you that are destroying Orthodox Christianity to the core.

 

[Veniamin]

Its sympathisers like you that are destroying Orthodox Christianity to the core.

 

Just how, pray tell, is venerating a saint of the Orthodox Church who happened to be a Pope of Rome destructive to Orthodox Christianity?  Or have you intentionally forgotten that Rome was steadfastly Orthodox for a thousand years before succumbing?

[Byzantine2008]

Just how, pray tell, is venerating a saint of the Orthodox Church who happened to be a Pope of Rome destructive to Orthodox Christianity?  Or have you intentionally forgotten that Rome was steadfastly Orthodox for a thousand years before succumbing?

I am not referring to that time, in fact I am referring to the last thousand years where the catholics have done nothing but openly persecute and undermine Christian Orthodoxy. 

Lord have Mercy

[Rosehip]

May we, as Orthodox Christians rise above all this and exhibit a true spirit of Christian love and forgiveness. Let's make sure we remember our own sins as a Church first and foremost. We may be persecuted, but the gospels say, "blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you for My sake." We are also told  to love those who hate us. The main thing is not to be involved in persecuting others-in this way we show a true Christian example to those around us that will not go unnoticed. 

[Byzantine2008]

May we, as Orthodox Christians rise above all this and exhibit a true spirit of Christian love and forgiveness. Let's make sure we remember our own sins as a Church first and foremost. We may be persecuted, but the gospels say, "blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you for My sake." We are also told  to love those who hate us. The main thing is not to be involved in persecuting others-in this way we show a true Christian example to those around us that will not go unnoticed. 

Thank You for that.

God bless you.

 

[Anastasios]

I am not referring to that time, in fact I am referring to the last thousand years where the catholics have done nothing but openly persecute and undermine Christian Orthodoxy. 

Lord have Mercy

I used to be a Byzantine Catholic. While they are under the Pope of Rome and accept many of the Roman Catholic heresies, it is not primarily their fault they are in the position they are in. Most of them think they are either Orthodox or "close enough" already.  They were formed primarily by forced conversions of Orthodox hierarchs when political boundaries changed, although in several prominent cases, people converted of their own free will.  During Stalin's tenure, many of them were forced to become Orthodox (at gun point) and that did not make them too happy towards us. So while they may be wrong, instead of condemning them, maybe we should have some compassion and sympathy for people who love our Church but don't understand they are not in it. We should be flattered they want to use our liturgy and icons and we should remind them that they came from us and are welcome and encouraged to return--but when you make a post saying they are all a big sham that probably does not make them consider that seriously.

[Pravoslavbob]

I used to be a Byzantine Catholic. While they are under the Pope of Rome and accept many of the Roman Catholic heresies, it is not primarily their fault they are in the position they are in. Most of them think they are either Orthodox or "close enough" already.  They were formed primarily by forced conversions of Orthodox hierarchs when political boundaries changed, although in several prominent cases, people converted of their own free will.  During Stalin's tenure, many of them were forced to become Orthodox (at gun point) and that did not make them too happy towards us. So while they may be wrong, instead of condemning them, maybe we should have some compassion and sympathy for people who love our Church but don't understand they are not in it. We should be flattered they want to use our liturgy and icons and we should remind them that they came from us and are welcome and encouraged to return--but when you make a post saying they are all a big sham that probably does not make them consider that seriously.

Post of the month!

[Byzantine2008]

I used to be a Byzantine Catholic. While they are under the Pope of Rome and accept many of the Roman Catholic heresies, it is not primarily their fault they are in the position they are in. Most of them think they are either Orthodox or "close enough" already.  They were formed primarily by forced conversions of Orthodox hierarchs when political boundaries changed, although in several prominent cases, people converted of their own free will.  During Stalin's tenure, many of them were forced to become Orthodox (at gun point) and that did not make them too happy towards us. So while they may be wrong, instead of condemning them, maybe we should have some compassion and sympathy for people who love our Church but don't understand they are not in it. We should be flattered they want to use our liturgy and icons and we should remind them that they came from us and are welcome and encouraged to return--but when you make a post saying they are all a big sham that probably does not make them consider that seriously.

I am flattered and humbled by your post.

I have modified the title.

God Bless you and thank you.

[Anastasios]

I am flattered and humbled by your post.

I have modified the title.

God Bless you and thank you.

Your willingness to change and humility is impressive.

For many Orthodox, especially Greeks (where there are only 2000 Byzantine Catholics in the whole country) when they find out about Byzantine Catholics they are shocked. So your reaction was understandable. Indeed, many of us have had a rough time on that other forum as well.

But there is hope for them to return to their Orthodox roots. I did, as did several other members of this forum.

[prodromas]

I am flattered and humbled by your post.

I have modified the title.

God Bless you and thank you.

If you want to read a good story brother, read the story of Saint Alexis who brought 20,000 byzantine Catholics back to the Orthodox faith.

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Alexis_of_Wilkes-Barre

[Byzantine2008]

If you want to read a good story brother, read the story of Saint Alexis who brought 20,000 byzantine Catholics back to the Orthodox faith.

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Alexis_of_Wilkes-Barre

Awsome absolutely awsome.

Glory to God

Thanks for the link 

[Orthodoc]

I used to be a Byzantine Catholic. While they are under the Pope of Rome and accept many of the Roman Catholic heresies, it is not primarily their fault they are in the position they are in. Most of them think they are either Orthodox or "close enough" already.  They were formed primarily by forced conversions of Orthodox hierarchs when political boundaries changed, although in several prominent cases, people converted of their own free will.  During Stalin's tenure, many of them were forced to become Orthodox (at gun point) and that did not make them too happy towards us. So while they may be wrong, instead of condemning them, maybe we should have some compassion and sympathy for people who love our Church but don't understand they are not in it.

I have to concur with most of what Fr Anastasios writes.  Especially the portion I have copied and pasted above.

I spent a few years posting in the website you came across.  And probably have the distinction of having more reprimands or 30 day suspensions than anyone else.  And all for defending the Orthodox faith and stating historical facts regarding their origins that they did not want to hear.

There are Orthodox Catholics who still participate on the site and, in fact, one of them is a female moderator who claims to be Greek Orthodox!  Low and behold she is one of the reasons I left the site after having two altercations  with her over slanderous information regarding not only Orthodoxy but the OCA.  It seems she is an avid ecumenist who thinks we should all just wash over our differences and sing Kumbaya!

The first altercation I had was a few years back when this moderator posted that she had attended 'education day' at St Vladimir's and was present at the out door Liturgy.  I happened to be at the same Liturgy that day.  She further went on to say that both she and her husband were elated when, as an ecumenical gesture, Pope John Paul II was commerated during the Liturgy.  I can assure you no such thing happened!  I responded by telling her that and stating that perhaps, since it was a Hierachal Liturgy, that she heard the word Pope (which is used to commerate the Patriarch of Alexandra'.  She replied back that both her & her husband distinctly heard the words John Paul II.  Even after I received a denial from St Vlad's (Fr John Matusiak) and two OCA priests that served she insisted the Pope was commerated that day.  Of couse she was backed by all the Byzantine Catholic &  Ukrainian GC posters who were probably laughing behind her back.  She obviously could not understand the implications of what she was claiming.  For if it was true it had meant that both the OCA & St Vlad's had apostatized the Orthodox faith &  had become (that word that begins with a 'U' and we are not allowed to use on this form lest we offend someone)!  Her response (since she was a moderator) was delte my post, publically reprimand me, and suspend me for 30 days!  At this point I came to the conclusion that I wasn't being allowed to defend Orthodoxy (by an Orthodox) and after two or three years of dialogue had come to the conclusion that it was impossible to discuss theology with them since they had no idea what their theology was supposed to be.  If you brought up a specific doctrine for discussion you could never get a unified reponse on their stance.  Some believed it, some didn't, and those that were unsure classified it as theologumenia!
It was at this point I logged off.  And stayed away for a year or so.  (I'm sure many of them were elated I wasn't there anymore).

The second altercation came a year or so later when I received a private email from an Orthodox stating that a Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest from Ireland had posted on the site that the OCA, once again as an ecumenical jesture, had sanctioned the veneration of St Josephat!  Any Orthodox of Slav origin who knows church history knows what an insult this would be if it were true.  For this man was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthodox Christians!  So once again I signed on to defend both my Orthodox faith & jurisdiction against this slander being perpetuated by a UGC priest!  I asked the good Father for sources to back up his claim.  He responded that it was PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE and was disseminated by someone high up in the OCA!   When I asked for the name of the source he replied that he wouldn't reveal it because he was afraid of reprisals aginst this person if he did.  One would wonder what reprisals if it was indeed PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE as he claimed.  At this point the Greek Orthodox moderator came in with reprimands and references to our previous encounter and locked the folder so I was unable to respond! 
At this point I thought - 'What's the use' and logged off the site.

Since then I receved another private email from someone who stated what the priest was referring to was the OCA 'Priests Service Book' put out by Bishop Dimitri (OCA Diocese of the south) where it lists on page 336 under the monthly calendar of saints for November 19th the following -

And of our Venerable Fathers Barlaam and JOSEPHAT, Princes of Greater India

Now, since it's very hard for me to believe that this UGC priest believes that St Josephat of Ukraine was also a prince of India I have to assume he was -

1.  Either trying to be smug and purposely maligning both Orthodoxy & the OCA
2.  Or was going by someone had told him and purposely posting it on a public forum to     
     malign Orthodoxy & the OCA.

The sad part is that, because of  a fellow Orthodox, I was unable to address or correct the problem.  Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

And, as I said concerning the site itself, it's very hard to discuss theology with people who base their faith on ritual, customs, traditions, and ethnic idenity rather than the doctrines which define just what and who they are.

Orthodoc

Just added a quote tag to make your quote and reply clearer.  --EofK

[Αριστοκλής]

Orthodoc,

The Greek Orthodox ecumenist over there you write of is a member here, but hasn't logged in in over 18 months. That says something even if I don't know exactly what. 
And the Greek orthodox priest who is administrator there ( ) is a member here (under a screen name) and he does occasionally post here.
Both of them as mysteries to me. I used to check up over there daily...now one a month or less. Too taxing of my patience.
But I remember your crusades. You're made of sterner stuff than I.

[username!]

Awsome absolutely awsome.

Glory to God

Thanks for the link 

Check out my avatar!  St. Alexis Toth brought a Greek Catholic parish over to Orthodoxy that isn't but 17 miles or so from my house.

[lubeltri]

And, as I said concerning the site itself, it's very hard to discuss theology with people who base their faith on ritual, customs, traditions, and ethnic identity rather than the doctrines which define just what and who they are.   

To be fair, you could say the same about many EO. Sure, I've met some who used the filioque hammer on me, but upon questioning, they didn't even know what the filioque meant.

[Orthodoc]

To be fair, you could say the same about many EO. Sure, I've met some who used the filioque hammer on me, but upon questioning, they didn't even know what the filioque meant.

How many Roman Catholics do you know that can explain the Filioque? 

Most Byzantine or Ukrainian Greek Catholics have no idea what it means to be 'In Communion With Rome'!  And either don't seem understand or admit that this very communion signififies that they required to accept all Roman Catholic doctrine.  If not, then it sure doesn't make sense to be under the authority, and recognize the supremacy of, a Bishop who defends and upholds doctrine one does not believe in or accept.  It's like admitting you are knowingly and willingly under a heterodox bishop.

Read some of the archives over at the other site where there is a difference of opinion between the Latin Rites and Byzantine Rites concerning what they are required to believe as a sui juris church.

The very fact that some of them clasify themselves as "Orthodox In Communion With Rome'  indicates what they base their faith on.  And it sure isn't doctrine.  Since the only things they share similiarities with the Orthodox are ritual, customs, traditions, and ethnic identity.

Othodoc

[Mickey]

Hooray! Orthodoc has returned!   

[FrChris]

Hooray! Orthodoc has returned!   

Hooray indeed! 

[lubeltri]

Orthodoc,

I would be glad to look, but I do not know the site in question.

[Αριστοκλής]

Yes. seems the link was removed as per rules, but the name of the site/forum.....? Of course, those of us who've been there, know.

[Heracleides]

^ Of course, taking the title of this thread as a starting point, all one has to do in Google is add the word 'forum' and the site is the first to be listed. 

[Paisius]

I used to be a Byzantine Catholic. While they are under the Pope of Rome and accept many of the Roman Catholic heresies, it is not primarily their fault they are in the position they are in. Most of them think they are either Orthodox or "close enough" already.

 
Amen.

No Byzantine Catholic alive today had anything to do with the worst of the uniate tactics. No Byzantine Catholic alive today intentionally left the Orthodox Faith. For them it is the faith of their fathers and to ask them to leave the Catholic Church would be asking them to leave the only faith they've ever known. We should pray for them, offer gentle correction when necessary. The tactics that brought many of them into the Catholic Church should be condemned but they deserve nothing but our love.


Yours in Christ
Joe

[Byzantine2008]

Fr Anastasios writes:  I used to be a Byzantine Catholic. While they are under the Pope of Rome and accept many of the Roman Catholic heresies, it is not primarily their fault they are in the position they are in. Most of them think they are either Orthodox or "close enough" already.  They were formed primarily by forced conversions of Orthodox hierarchs when political boundaries changed, although in several prominent cases, people converted of their own free will.  During Stalin's tenure, many of them were forced to become Orthodox (at gun point) and that did not make them too happy towards us. So while they may be wrong, instead of condemning them, maybe we should have some compassion and sympathy for people who love our Church but don't understand they are not in it.

Reply:

I have to concur with most of what Fr Anastasios writes.  Especially the portion I have copied and pasted above.

I spent a few years posting in the website you came across.  And probably have the distinction of having more reprimands or 30 day suspensions than anyone else.  And all for defending the Orthodox faith and stating historical facts regarding their origins that they did not want to hear.

There are Orthodox Catholics who still participate on the site and, in fact, one of them is a female moderator who claims to be Greek Orthodox!  Low and behold she is one of the reasons I left the site after having two altercations  with her over slanderous information regarding not only Orthodoxy but the OCA.  It seems she is an avid ecumenist who thinks we should all just wash over our differences and sing Kumbaya!

The first altercation I had was a few years back when this moderator posted that she had attended 'education day' at St Vladimir's and was present at the out door Liturgy.  I happened to be at the same Liturgy that day.  She further went on to say that both she and her husband were elated when, as an ecumenical gesture, Pope John Paul II was commerated during the Liturgy.  I can assure you no such thing happened!  I responded by telling her that and stating that perhaps, since it was a Hierachal Liturgy, that she heard the word Pope (which is used to commerate the Patriarch of Alexandra'.  She replied back that both her & her husband distinctly heard the words John Paul II.  Even after I received a denial from St Vlad's (Fr John Matusiak) and two OCA priests that served she insisted the Pope was commerated that day.  Of couse she was backed by all the Byzantine Catholic &  Ukrainian GC posters who were probably laughing behind her back.  She obviously could not understand the implications of what she was claiming.  For if it was true it had meant that both the OCA & St Vlad's had apostatized the Orthodox faith &  had become (that word that begins with a 'U' and we are not allowed to use on this form lest we offend someone)!  Her response (since she was a moderator) was delte my post, publically reprimand me, and suspend me for 30 days!  At this point I came to the conclusion that I wasn't being allowed to defend Orthodoxy (by an Orthodox) and after two or three years of dialogue had come to the conclusion that it was impossible to discuss theology with them since they had no idea what their theology was supposed to be.  If you brought up a specific doctrine for discussion you could never get a unified reponse on their stance.  Some believed it, some didn't, and those that were unsure classified it as theologumenia!
It was at this point I logged off.  And stayed away for a year or so.  (I'm sure many of them were elated I wasn't there anymore).

The second altercation came a year or so later when I received a private email from an Orthodox stating that a Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest from Ireland had posted on the site that the OCA, once again as an ecumenical jesture, had sanctioned the veneration of St Josephat!  Any Orthodox of Slav origin who knows church history knows what an insult this would be if it were true.  For this man was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthodox Christians!  So once again I signed on to defend both my Orthodox faith & jurisdiction against this slander being perpetuated by a UGC priest!  I asked the good Father for sources to back up his claim.  He responded that it was PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE and was disseminated by someone high up in the OCA!   When I asked for the name of the source he replied that he wouldn't reveal it because he was afraid of reprisals aginst this person if he did.  One would wonder what reprisals if it was indeed PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE as he claimed.  At this point the Greek Orthodox moderator came in with reprimands and references to our previous encounter and locked the folder so I was unable to respond! 
At this point I thought - 'What's the use' and logged off the site.

Since then I receved another private email from someone who stated what the priest was referring to was the OCA 'Priests Service Book' put out by Bishop Dimitri (OCA Diocese of the south) where it lists on page 336 under the monthly calendar of saints for November 19th the following -

And of our Venerable Fathers Barlaam and JOSEPHAT, Princes of Greater India

Now, since it's very hard for me to believe that this UGC priest believes that St Josephat of Ukraine was also a prince of India I have to assume he was -

1.  Either trying to be smug and purposely maligning both Orthodoxy & the OCA
2.  Or was going by someone had told him and purposely posting it on a public forum to     
     malign Orthodoxy & the OCA.

The sad part is that, because of  a fellow Orthodox, I was unable to address or correct the problem.  Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

And, as I said concerning the site itself, it's very hard to discuss theology with people who base their faith on ritual, customs, traditions, and ethnic idenity rather than the doctrines which define just what and who they are.

Orthodoc


   

Thank you brother for that history lesson.

God Bless you for defending the faith.

 

[Orual]

No Byzantine Catholic alive today intentionally left the Orthodox Faith.

Not to take away from your general point, but I have known a few people who did exactly that, left Orthodoxy intentionally and became Byzantine Catholic.  It's painful to watch people abandon the fountain of living water so that they can draw from an empty well, but I just wanted to point out that not all the Byzantine Catholics are innocent victims.

[Αριστοκλής]

Not to take away from your general point, but I have known a few people who did exactly that, left Orthodoxy intentionally and became Byzantine Catholic.  It's painful to watch people abandon the fountain of living water so that they can draw from an empty well, but I just wanted to point out that not all the Byzantine Catholics are innocent victims.

Interesting, The only one I ever knew who did this soon returned, penitently, to Orthodoxy (and profusely apologized to all his Orthodox friends who knew of his diversion for his mistake. Used to post here, too.)

[johnmac]

The Eastern Chruches are hardly empty and dry or whatever term you wish use. There are many faithful and pious christians here. I would like to see people both catholics and orthodox talk about how we can work together and work for a better world. This is the faith of my family and I am very proud of this and of them and the faith we profess.

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