OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 22, 2014, 05:05:33 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Hair coverings  (Read 12168 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
zebu
Mot à ta mère!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 338

aimovoroi tourkoi!


« on: August 18, 2008, 03:48:40 PM »

Oh, and none of the women at Assumption cover their hair.  It might be best not to do that...Again, I think the most important thing in visiting other parishes is to not make a scene of ourselves and to try to do what everyone else does, so that the worship remains orderly and about God, so that we don't distract anyone or make ourselves a temptation for others to judge us.
Logged

Жизнь прожить не поле перейти
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2008, 03:50:45 PM »

I don't know if I can leave off the headcoverings. I will talk to my husband about it. To me that isn't just a "parish thing" or a "cultural thing."
Logged
zebu
Mot à ta mère!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 338

aimovoroi tourkoi!


« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2008, 04:05:26 PM »

Hmmm I am sorry if I said too much.  Cover your hair if you want...it's not a problem...Personally, I think women should cover their hair. I said what I said because I know several women in that parish who are outright OPPOSED to women covering their hair and who can be quite judgmental about it. But whenever I visit with my goddaughter (who covers her hair), everyone is nice to her. 
Logged

Жизнь прожить не поле перейти
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2008, 04:26:07 PM »

I don't care if I am judged for having my daughters and I wear headcoverings. It is a personal conviction, I don't judge others in choosing not to wear headcoverings either (unless of course they are required to do so by rules of a monastery/parish and try to fight it. That is horrible).
Logged
katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 889


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2008, 07:29:00 PM »

Unfortunately, some women who do wear headcoverings are very judgmental of women who don't and make a very lot of incorrect assumptions.  I didn't wear a headcovering for a long time because of that.  I just started wearing a scarf a couple of years ago when I moved here.  Our priest prefers it but doesn't push the issue.  I've known holy women who wear them and holy women who don't.  So, those of us who do wear them need to be careful of what we say.  I've seen some pretty awful things said about women who don't. 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 07:29:40 PM by katherine 2001 » Logged
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2008, 08:57:55 PM »

Unfortunately, some women who do wear headcoverings are very judgmental of women who don't and make a very lot of incorrect assumptions.  I didn't wear a headcovering for a long time because of that.  I just started wearing a scarf a couple of years ago when I moved here.  Our priest prefers it but doesn't push the issue.  I've known holy women who wear them and holy women who don't.  So, those of us who do wear them need to be careful of what we say.  I've seen some pretty awful things said about women who don't. 

I realize this is rather a tangent for this thread, but this is an interesting topic. I also have very strong convictions about covering my head in church, but I need to be very, very careful not to become judgmental towards those who don't!

This is my question: how important is this tradition in the Orthodox Church? On what level is the woman's headcovering next to all the other traditions/doctrines of the Church? Obviously, it is recorded in the NT, which alone makes it important, but how does it stand in importance, next to, say, the Holy Mysteries of the Church?
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2008, 09:23:43 PM »

I generally don't say anything about headcoverings to anyone. But I do require that my daughters and myself wear them. And the only males in our household that wear shorts are those that aren't potty trained Roll Eyes
Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2008, 10:00:17 PM »

Let me clarify further.

If we are in the nave my daughters and I wear headcoverings. Otherwise we do not. There are some women in our parish that always wear some sort of headcovering in daily as well as parish life. I don't do that.
Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,132



« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 10:20:08 PM »

How important is it?  I have been told that the Patriarch of Antioch, Ignatius IV, has insisted that women DON'T wear headcoverings because it gives the mistaken impression that they are Muslim.  I've heard that he has even descended his patriarchal throne to remove a woman's headcovering.  Just because the Muslims have usurped one of our traditions doesn't mean that it should be abandoned.  However, I have also heard that the Patriarch has Okayed it for women as they approach to receive the Eucharist. 
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2008, 10:31:13 PM »

I guess it seems a bit strange to think that as  Christians we should have our lives and actions dictated by what muslims do or do not do. The fact that it is a biblical NT command and that the Church has practised this custom for centuries is enough for me to want to practise it as well. There are ways one can wear a headcovering that are not sterotypically islamic. We also wear our baptismal crosses, which should also point to the fact that we are Christians, not muslims.  I usually put on my scarf before I head out the door for church and many muslims see me as I travel to church. In fact, this has lead to conversations  which otherwise would not have taken place. I can tell them I am an Orthodox Christian and that we cover our heads according to 1 Corinthians 11. This has always been very well-received and I am always treated with great respect by all the muslims I know.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
jlerms
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 826


O sweet Jesus, cleanse my soul.


« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2008, 10:37:43 PM »

I used to wear a scarf at Divine Liturgy until one of my daughters (now 2yrs.old) kept pulling it off my head constantly.  Tongue I got tired of it distracting me from the service and encouraging her to try again every time I put it back on.  They also keep it rather warm in my church and I was getting quite hot with it on...so for these reasons I stopped wearing a headcovering.  I will eventually return to wearing a scarf out of a personal preference. But I certainly do not have any problems with women who decide to remain uncovered. 
 :)Juliana
Logged
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,724


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2008, 11:11:09 PM »

Yeah, kids do interesting things with the scarves you wear.  I tend to prefer long rectangular scarves, partly because they are comfortable and partly because those tend to be more popular in my church.  So one year I was teaching kindergarten Sunday school and I had the kids in church with me for part of the liturgy.  One of the boys had the sniffles and he reached for the end of my scarf and wiped his nose with it.  I couldn't get mad at him, he just needed something to wipe his nose with. 
Logged

Cassiel
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 91


WWW
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2008, 11:12:25 PM »

What do we make of the context of that passage regarding headcoverings, though - where Paul ends with "16But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God."  I am totally ignorant of the Bible - really - I read it and try to learn from commentaries. I could be reading this completely wrong and probably am.  To me, though, this has always made it sound like "it isn't worth arguing over."  

Our oldest archpriest (we have four) once said to me, while I was a catechumen, "I think it's nice when women cover their heads."  He's quite subtle.  Wink   So for a long time I did.  Recently, though, for various reasons, I've been covering it only for liturgy and not for other services.  In our parish it's customary for many women to cover only for communion and confession.  Some of the younger women don't cover it at all (I'm 28, but a recent convert, so I'm more concerned with what my priest suggests than with the trend.  My own spiritual father - who this eldest priest is not - says he doesn't care whether women cover or not).  It does seem strange to cover your head in church and not otherwise, though.  The passage in 1 Corinthians says "because of the angels," and we always have our guardian angels around, right?

Logged

More than you should want to know about Cassiel.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,652


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2008, 12:00:28 AM »

One of the boys had the sniffles and he reached for the end of my scarf and wiped his nose with it.  I couldn't get mad at him, he just needed something to wipe his nose with. 
EEEWWWW!  Gross! Tongue  LOL!
Logged
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,724


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2008, 12:13:27 AM »

EEEWWWW!  Gross! Tongue  LOL!

You get that reaction a lot when teaching very young Sunday school students.  You just can't show it, especially when they give you a waist hug and wipe their noses on the front of your dress during the hug.  It's surprising how much mucous small children produce.   Smiley
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 12:14:19 AM by Salpy » Logged

JHP17
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 34


OC.net


« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2008, 02:53:35 AM »

i vaguely remember reading somewhere that head coverings originiated with the assyrians and the christians and muslims adapted this practice from them. i think it's a personal choice and i would never judge anyone one way or another. i don't think head coverings are the issue really when i see all the woman/girls at church on parade in skimpy/tight clothing.
Logged

NULL
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,652


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2008, 03:46:56 AM »

i vaguely remember reading somewhere that head coverings originiated with the assyrians and the christians and muslims adapted this practice from them. i think it's a personal choice and i would never judge anyone one way or another. i don't think head coverings are the issue really when i see all the woman/girls at church on parade in skimpy/tight clothing.
And no mention of how us men often dress just as inappropriately for church?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 03:47:20 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
EofK
Mrs. Y
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 3,976


lolcat addict


« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2008, 09:05:02 AM »

I have the same struggle with Caitlin trying to pull scarves off my head.  I think I'm just going to start wearing hats or knit caps or something that's not so easy to yank off my head.  Is there any precedence for or restriction against this?

As for the little mucous faucets:  Indeed, it is incredible how much goo can come out of one little baby and the best place to wipe it is always Mom's pretty dress!
Logged

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2008, 10:37:25 AM »

How can we grow into a deeper understanding as Christian women as to the full spiritual significance of the veiling?
What level of importance does this custom maintain in the life of the Church? Looking forward to everyone's thoughts!
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
EofK
Mrs. Y
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 3,976


lolcat addict


« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2008, 10:42:13 AM »

I was under the impression that it was to avoid distracting others with elaborate hairstyles or paying more attention to our appearance than to worship. 
Logged

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams
Nyssa The Hobbit
Used to be OrthodoxFairyQueen
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian as of 1/10/09
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 396



WWW
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2008, 09:07:05 PM »

I realize this is rather a tangent for this thread, but this is an interesting topic. I also have very strong convictions about covering my head in church, but I need to be very, very careful not to become judgmental towards those who don't!

This is my question: how important is this tradition in the Orthodox Church? On what level is the woman's headcovering next to all the other traditions/doctrines of the Church? Obviously, it is recorded in the NT, which alone makes it important, but how does it stand in importance, next to, say, the Holy Mysteries of the Church?

In my Greek Orthodox Church, I never see such headcoverings.  Even the elderly women rarely wear hats.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 09:10:08 PM by OrthodoxFairyQueen » Logged

Author of "Tojet" (fantasy) and "The Lighthouse" (Gothic), info available at my website URL.
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,083


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2008, 09:15:44 PM »

i vaguely remember reading somewhere that head coverings originiated with the assyrians and the christians and muslims adapted this practice from them. i think it's a personal choice and i would never judge anyone one way or another. i don't think head coverings are the issue really when i see all the woman/girls at church on parade in skimpy/tight clothing.

I Bet it's a continuation from the synagoge . Jewish women who are Orthodox cover their heads as do the men.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2008, 09:53:02 PM »

^ This is what I've always assumed as well. I do wonder, however, just why Paul decided that men were no longer to cover their heads?

Do you all think it's important to understand this whole matter of headcovering intellectually? I have evangelical friends who feel it is very important that each woman understands this biblical doctrine  intellectually and emotionally, or else something is wrong and it is not being taken very seriously and will likely die out as a practice.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,468


WWW
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2008, 10:38:52 PM »

^ The Amish and Mennonite women still wear headcoverings as a sign of conscious modesty.

We live in an age where a huge majority of Orthodox women are no longer interested in modesty although I've been exposed to culture shock the first few times I attended OCA and/or Antiochian Churches where a good number of women wore headcoverings.

At a recent Lenten Orthodox Youth Retreat in PA - I remember a handful of women wearing headcoverings.

Having rarely seen headcoverings worn by women younger than 75 in GOA, I have no opinion on whether women ought to wear headcoverings.  I do admit that I've gone 2 years without attending Church in a suit and tie because of ill-fitting dress shoes.   Cry
Logged
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2008, 11:09:16 PM »

I have the same struggle with Caitlin trying to pull scarves off my head.  I think I'm just going to start wearing hats or knit caps or something that's not so easy to yank off my head.  Is there any precedence for or restriction against this?

As for the little mucous faucets:  Indeed, it is incredible how much goo can come out of one little baby and the best place to wipe it is always Mom's pretty dress!


 A lot of women in the Rusyn/Western Ukrainian parishes wear paňi hats, or at least that's what I've heard some people call them.  They're just like big brimmed hats with a flower on them. 


not in response to the quote from Mrs. Y
Also I know a lot of women that are my friends that don't cover their heads. They are devout and dedicated Orthodox women who are involved with community outreach ministry and attend every service they can.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 11:29:03 PM by username! » Logged

Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2008, 11:56:16 PM »

Growing up in the Antiochian tradition, I was never instructed to wear a headcovering. The only time I have worn one was when I have visited a ROCOR parish in SF. For me, the headcovering reflects an ancient cultural symbol of modesty that no longer has the same meaning it did 2000 thousand years ago. I believe in those times women wore the headcovering ANYTIME they were seen in public (not just for worship). In fact, I believe ancient Jewish women would cover their lower faces when they went out. In modern times, women no longer cover their heads or faces whenever they leave the home. So I follow the 21st century dictum's of modesty when attending church. I wear either a dress or skirt which reaches at least to my knees, I will pair it with a long sleeve sweater or shirt and no low necklines. My hairstyle is very simply and does not require much time (wash, air dry, then brush out the knots). I keep make-up and jewelry to a minimum.

It is not an issue to me at all if some women choose to wear a headcovering in church. But I am glad that in the Antiochian tradition it is a decision that each woman can make according to her conscience.



Logged
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2008, 08:27:57 AM »

And yet it is only in the relatively recent past that women have stopped covering their heads for church services. Only a few decades ago, basically all women, Protestant or Catholic, did so. This leads me to believe it is not merely an ancient cultural thing, but something precious we are losing due to modernism and a loss of traditional values.

I wonder why the Russians have managed to keep this tradition so successfully? At my parish, almost everyone wears a scarf or some sort of headcovering and in this the Russians have my deepest respect.

Please note: I am not judging anyone who does not cover, but see it as an opportunity to receive a great blessing. There seems to be such joy in obeying the NT commands.  Also, I do not cover all the time, so in this I could improve as well. If I would be married to a man who desired this of me, I would gladly do do!
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
EofK
Mrs. Y
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 3,976


lolcat addict


« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2008, 08:37:07 AM »

I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like I sing better when I wear a headscarf.  Maybe it's just so tight over my ears that I can hear myself a little better.  LOL
Logged

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2008, 09:21:17 AM »

And yet it is only in the relatively recent past that women have stopped covering their heads for church services. Only a few decades ago, basically all women, Protestant or Catholic, did so. This leads me to believe it is not merely an ancient cultural thing, but something precious we are losing due to modernism and a loss of traditional values.

I wonder why the Russians have managed to keep this tradition so successfully? At my parish, almost everyone wears a scarf or some sort of headcovering and in this the Russians have my deepest respect.

Please note: I am not judging anyone who does not cover, but see it as an opportunity to receive a great blessing. There seems to be such joy in obeying the NT commands.  Also, I do not cover all the time, so in this I could improve as well. If I would be married to a man who desired this of me, I would gladly do do!

I think you are right about this recent practice. In my home Greek parish, adult women wore headcoverings. Both grandmothers, my mother, all aunts wore usually a light dark lace thingie or a real hat (whatever term is appropriate for ladies' head-wear.) There was never any discussion about NOT doing so.
Few do so now in my Greek parish, but many do in our ACROD parish among the more mature ladies - not the younger ones. Even my wife, a convert who displays usual convert zeal for Orthopraxis refuses ("I'll never wear those little white doilies" -cute Rusyn tradition.) No amount of my input will sway her, especially when she replies, "I'll wear a scarf when Pani covers her head!" Aristokles is silenced... Embarrassed Should have known better...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 09:22:50 AM by Αριστοκλής » Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2008, 10:45:21 AM »

And yet it is only in the relatively recent past that women have stopped covering their heads for church services. Only a few decades ago, basically all women, Protestant or Catholic, did so. This leads me to believe it is not merely an ancient cultural thing, but something precious we are losing due to modernism and a loss of traditional values.

I wonder why the Russians have managed to keep this tradition so successfully? At my parish, almost everyone wears a scarf or some sort of headcovering and in this the Russians have my deepest respect.

Please note: I am not judging anyone who does not cover, but see it as an opportunity to receive a great blessing. There seems to be such joy in obeying the NT commands.  Also, I do not cover all the time, so in this I could improve as well. If I would be married to a man who desired this of me, I would gladly do do!

I do remember a few women wearing a round lace doily on their heads in the sixties but one could still see most of their hair so I am not sure what the point of it was. Perhaps in the Antiochian church the headcover fell out of favor due to the rise of muslim fundamentalism in the middle east. In that fundamentalist culture, women must always cover and the hijab and niqab are a sign of the less-than-human status of women and of their subservience to men. I think someone further up mentioned the patriarch of Antioch instructing women NOT to wear a headcovering. I had never heard that before but it doesn't surprise me. Great pains have been made to raise the status of women within the Antiochian church because unfortunately, even some Arab Christian men* tend to view the male as superior to the female. I believe this view of women by Arab men is DUE to the muslim influence in that region.
In the Russian tradition, Orthodoxy was the major religion so there was no cultural influence by other religions to effect this particular tradition.

*a double standard exists to this day in regard to how sons and daughters are raised. Arab men have no problem sleeping around before marriage and there is no retribution for them to pay. But the virginity of a women is sacred and I had one girlfriend tell me her father told her he would kill her if she got pregnant while she was single. They were an Orthodox Christian family.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 10:53:55 AM by Tamara » Logged
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2008, 11:08:58 AM »

Another story I would like to share is in regard to some Antiochian Churches which have been started by some converts.
I realize in some Antiochian parishes many women cover which is fine when it is a choice and not something done out of fear or parish political pressure. Since I now attend a parish started by converts, many of them shared with me that in the beginning of their parish formation, they were forced to wear headcoverings and long dresses because their priest made it part of the culture of their church. They covered out of fear of what he would do if they didn't. I don't think this is the right way to encourage women to cover. Once this man was thrown out of our archdiocese due to embezzling money and many other problems, everyone in the parish breathed a collective sigh of relief and started to dress in 20th century style clothing. Some women chose to cover, others did not (this is still the case today in our parish). Our Khouria doesn't cover because she doesn't want anyone in the parish to feel pressure to cover due to peer pressure or coercion because of what happened to them in the beginning of their transition into Orthodoxy.
Logged
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2008, 11:38:34 AM »

Our Khouria doesn't cover because she doesn't want anyone in the parish to feel pressure to cover due to peer pressure or coercion because of what happened to them in the beginning of their transition into Orthodoxy.

I am touched by the consideration of your Khouria.  This is a difficult position to be in.  Personally, I do not cover my head in church.  It is not the tradition in our parish, and the elder presbytera (whose example I strive to follow as the younger presbytera-- she is a wonderful, pious woman) does not cover hers. 

I do, however, try very hard to dress appropriately according to what others are wearing, while still setting the example of being conservative.  While I don't necessarily wear long sleeves (especially not right now, since this is Atlanta and it's usually over 90 degrees during the summer), I make sure that my shoulders are covered and that my skirts (never pants) are an appropriate length.  It saddens me when I see young girls come in to church with bare shoulders and low-cut tops/dresses.  It saddens me even more when I see their mothers wearing the same things. 

God bless,
Presbytera Mari
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
Maksim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 86


« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2008, 02:06:17 PM »

And yet it is only in the relatively recent past that women have stopped covering their heads for church services. Only a few decades ago, basically all women, Protestant or Catholic, did so. This leads me to believe it is not merely an ancient cultural thing, but something precious we are losing due to modernism and a loss of traditional values.

St. John Chrysostom refers to a woman covering her head in church as a matter of "the very laws of nature".  I think the idea that it is "cultural" (and thus can be discarded) is more or less a 20th-century rationalization.  St. John certainly seems to view it as a universal spiritual issue and not relative to the surrounding society.

What's interesting is that each group seems to have its own reasons for why headcoverings are now optional (or even discouraged).  For example, I have heard Serbs say that women should no longer cover their heads because "that's what the Muslims do".  And Greeks say that women shouldn't because "we're not Old Calendarists".  And Americans say "it's no longer culturally relevant".  And so on.  The more I read or hear about it, the more I see how little has changed since the days of the divine Chrysostom.
Logged
Amdetsion
Worship God with all thy strength and all thy might
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Patriarchate; Addis Abebe Ethiopia
Posts: 931


HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2008, 02:15:03 PM »

...but how does it stand in importance, next to, say, the Holy Mysteries of the Church?

Good question?

Seems whenever this issue is discussed the question you ask is never asked.

Ordaination is a Holy Sacrament.

Only the 'ordained' and or the 'tonsured' is allowed to wear head covering in the church. Such as the priests, bishops, and deacons particularly archdeacons, nuns, monks etc.

Only one exception is: 'Women'

Sorry no men allowed; unless they are 'ordained' or 'tonsured' monks.

Women however; are permitted to stand with the 'ordained' and the 'tonsured' just by her nature.

This is a special gift that women are blessed with which is grounded in holiness evidenced throughout the scripture and ancient church tradition. 'She' is co-opted with the holy order without having to be given election or permissions.

'She' is thus priviledged. Blessed among the blessed.

Seems that men are the ones who are denied in the church NOT women.

Men are relegated to the left side and women to the 'right' side of the church. This is very much a proof of holiness and acceptance.

The covering is a crown. It is an immense and glorious symbol of embrace and love of God and his unity - oneness with His Holy Church that only a women can truly exhibit. Christ said "I am the groom and the church is my bride".  This is the nature of our true holy orthodox heritage.

Each man and wife are a microcosm of Christ and His Church. Each women in her faith is a bride of Christ.

Every Sunday, every day really..is the wedding and the wedding feast.

It is unfortunate that the vail for the women (except for weddings the "fashion" aspect is the only holding power in this case) is abhored by some women who misunderstand and are not being properly guided and educated about who women are in the holy faith. Thus they have "thrown the baby out with the bath water". They have discarded the blessing of God rendering it as something worthless not realizing that such regard is actually a measure of whom they are in the faith.

We are a holy people; chosen...a holy nation.

Imagine a "holy nation" that likes that they are "holy" but prefers to embrace all things contrary to that holiness. It is their right. But what is to be made of it?

It is like a clergymen that prefers to be seen and treated as a laymen but still be a clergymen. It may be his right but what is to be made of him? Can a priest, deacon etc. do his duty in jeans and an old Led Zeplin T shirt?  Maybe?......

It is like all else in our true faith. We must decide on how much of our blessing we are willing to keep and love. It is not an obligation. It is a gift from God.

How fast we loose our way.


Logged

"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2008, 02:30:06 PM »

I feel like the tides have turned and now those of us that wear a head covering are judged. My daughter came home telling me about how she doesn't "have to" wear a head covering. And I am sad to say that they had her take it off as soon as I left her on Monday. It is fine that they don't wear a headcovering. But to indoctrinate my daughter against them behind my back is usurping my authority as a parent. And that is wrong.
Logged
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,816



« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2008, 02:33:12 PM »

This question often comes up in convert parishes where many older cradle Orthodox do not  cover their heads and  younger convert women  look to Slavic churches as more spiritual will  begin to believe they need to cover their heads.  This issue can be very divisive in some parishes and can be the cause of division rather than unity of the faith as one side seeks to judge the other side. Here are some excepts of an article I wrote some years ago that put it into perspective for the women in our parish and resulted in less judgement of each other.

The Tradition of Women Covering their Head when They Pray

For nearly two thousand years, Orthodox women, according to the words of the holy Apostle Paul, have gone to God's church with covered heads.  Until recently, this custom has been kept by faithful women and has been handed down from generation to generation. It is a custom not only of the local churches, but also in worldwide Orthodox churches,  whether one is in the Greek, Antiochian, Russian, eastern European, or African Orthodox Church, women in the church have their heads covered.

In the United States since the 1960s ( after the Roman Catholic decision of Vatican II that women did not have to cover their heads), some Orthodox women have chosen not to follow this custom.  They have felt that it was dated custom that had no place in the practice of modern Orthopraxis. While head coverings are still the norm in the Old Country (Greece, Antioch, Russia, etc) in the so called diaspora, the response to this is varied by the jurisdictions in the United States.  In most Russian and Slavic Churches, head coverings are still required and a woman is not communed without a head covering. In the Greek, Antiochian, and many OCA parishes head coverings are not required and the practice is left as a pious custom that women may use or not use as they wish. Many parishes, like ours, have head coverings for women who wish them but do not require them.

SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR WOMEN COVERING THEIR HEADS
We find the basis for this pious custom of covering the head in Sacred Scripture itself, in the New Testament. The Most Holy Virgin Mary covered her head in the holy temple from her young years. According to tradition, her veil (head covering) in the Jerusalem temple was light blue; therefore, on the feast days of the Theotokos, Orthodox clergy often wear light blue vestments. The Most Holy Theotokos wore a veil (head covering) as a sign of her humility and submissiveness to God's will, which was manifested on the day of the Annunciation. Later the Apostle Paul reiterated the importance of this when he addressed the model for men and women as they prayed:  
"...ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you. But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man: and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered disgraceth his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven. For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. The man indeed ought not to cover his head: because he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man [c.f. Genesis 2-3]. For the man was not created for the woman: but the woman for the man. Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels. But yet neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman: but all things of God. You yourselves judge. Doth it become a woman to pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman nourish her hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the Church of God [i.e., if anyone want to complain about this, we have no other way of doing things, this is our practice; all the churches believe the same way]. Now this I ordain: not praising you, that you come together, not for the better, but for the worse. "(1 Corinthians 11:1-17)

According to St. Paul, Orthodox Women veil themselves as a sign that His glory, not theirs, should be the focus at worship, and as a sign of our submission to authority. It is an outward sign of our recognizing headship, both of God and man, and a sign of our respecting the presence of the Heavenly Hosts at the Divine Liturgy. In veiling, we reflect the divine invisible order and make it visible. This St. Paul presents clearly as a practice of all the churches of his time.

THE ARGUMENT AGAINST HEADCOVERINGS
Faithful Orthodox women who choose to not cover their head in church note that they believe that St. Paul was speaking as a man of his time, and that this ordinance no longer applies in modern context.  They view this often more as a custom from the old world and not one that translates well into modern life. An example given is that in the Old Country, Orthodox married women always had a head covering on to identify themselves as married and to help them protect themselves from the elements (much like to bonnets of pioneer women in the early US history). Women who choose not to wear a head covering note that several jurisdictions in the United States no longer require this custom after 1960s choosing to leave it a practice of personal piety.  As a result of these issues they see no mandate for the continued veiling of American  Orthodox women.

Often the detractors of those women who choose not to veil will judge them by saying their only reason for not veiling is that veils and headscarves are not in style, "I don't want to want to spoil my hair style"  The reality is that for the faithful Orthodox Woman, who chooses not cover her head, there is no spiritual value to their covering their heads and so they choose to not cover their heads.

THE ARGUMENT FOR HEADCOVERINGS
Faithful Orthodox women who choose to wear a head covering (veil) believe that in doing so she recalls the image of her who was vouchsafed to carry the Savior Himself. If the Most Pure and Most Blessed One herself had a covered head, shall we really consider the imitation of her as foolish or old fashioned?  To these women every outward action, accompanied by the correct Christian inward disposition, brings benefit to the soul. The action of wearing a head covering is one of obedience to the Holy Scripture and the tradition of the Church. The act is so rich with symbolism to these women. They often note that it is a submission to authority, a surrender to God, an imitation of the Most Holy Theotokos as a woman who uttered her "fiat!"; the covering of my glory for His glory, and a sign of modesty and chastity. Many converts feel that the veil is a symbol of their adoption into the Holy Orthodox Church through all of the ages and the women who are their spiritual ancestors and examples.  One person interviewed noted that in all the icons of Holy women, the one common point of most is the covering of their head by veil or scarf.

Just as there are detractors for those who choose not veil, those who choose to cover the head in church have their detractors who will judge them as old fashioned and out of touch with the modern or too legalistic.  The reality is that for the Orthodox Woman, who chooses to cover her head, there is real spiritual value and identification with the Church in the covering of their head and so they cover their heads.

TO VEIL OR NOT TO VEIL?
The Antiochian Archdiocese does not require women to cover their heads in church. Our bishops have wisely determined that this act is a voluntary pious act that has meaning to one who does it and understands why they do it. They do not require it, as an act of obedience, for those to whom it has no spiritual value. The greatest danger to our spiritual life is not whether a woman chooses to veil or not veil herself when praying, but lies in our judging her decision to do so, for when we so judge we put our own  salvation in peril.


As one can see from Tamara's  note above, she was raised in an Antiochian Church in which few if any women  vieled their heads and in my parish it is about 50/50.  The key to veiling one's hair in reality should be the expression of the spirituality one receives by veiling or not veiling. If it means some thing to you spiritually veil your head, if it does not mean anything to you it is a worthless action.

Thomas
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,468


WWW
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2008, 08:19:15 PM »

I feel like the tides have turned and now those of us that wear a head covering are judged. My daughter came home telling me about how she doesn't "have to" wear a head covering. And I am sad to say that they had her take it off as soon as I left her on Monday. It is fine that they don't wear a headcovering. But to indoctrinate my daughter against them behind my back is usurping my authority as a parent. And that is wrong.

You would have to tell these people to mind their own business when it comes to your daughter's headcoverings.  If they persist in having your daughter's headcovering removed, remove her from the camp and demand a refund.  Not every Orthodox woman is going to look like Maria Menounos or some Miley Cyrus wannabe.

You and your daughter could also take your shoes off and shake the dust off of them if they remain stubborn.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 08:20:24 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,724


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2008, 11:02:21 PM »

I feel like the tides have turned and now those of us that wear a head covering are judged. My daughter came home telling me about how she doesn't "have to" wear a head covering. And I am sad to say that they had her take it off as soon as I left her on Monday. It is fine that they don't wear a headcovering. But to indoctrinate my daughter against them behind my back is usurping my authority as a parent. And that is wrong.

That's too bad.  They should respect your family's tradition.
Logged

Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,724


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2008, 11:10:25 PM »

Ordaination is a Holy Sacrament.

Only the 'ordained' and or the 'tonsured' is allowed to wear head covering in the church. Such as the priests, bishops, and deacons particularly archdeacons, nuns, monks etc.

Only one exception is: 'Women'

Sorry no men allowed; unless they are 'ordained' or 'tonsured' monks.

Women however; are permitted to stand with the 'ordained' and the 'tonsured' just by her nature.

This is a special gift that women are blessed with which is grounded in holiness evidenced throughout the scripture and ancient church tradition. 'She' is co-opted with the holy order without having to be given election or permissions.

'She' is thus priviledged. Blessed among the blessed.

Seems that men are the ones who are denied in the church NOT women.

Men are relegated to the left side and women to the 'right' side of the church. This is very much a proof of holiness and acceptance.

The covering is a crown. It is an immense and glorious symbol of embrace and love of God and his unity - oneness with His Holy Church that only a women can truly exhibit. Christ said "I am the groom and the church is my bride".  This is the nature of our true holy orthodox heritage.

Each man and wife are a microcosm of Christ and His Church. Each women in her faith is a bride of Christ.

Every Sunday, every day really..is the wedding and the wedding feast.




Thank you, Deacon, for this insight.  Wearing a head covering can be a very positive thing and I think people have lost sight of that.

Back when I taught the Sunday school kindergarten class I mentioned above, I would give little head coverings to the little girls in the class before taking them into church.  They were unspeakably cute.   Smiley 

I never told them that they "have to" wear the head coverings.  I used to tell them they were lucky because they "get to" wear them.  The boys would even sometimes look a little jealous.   Smiley
Logged

PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,652


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2008, 11:11:25 PM »

I never told them that they "have to" wear the head coverings.  I used to tell them they were lucky because they "get to" wear them.  The boys would even sometimes look a little jealous.   Smiley
It's all a matter of how you spin the message. Wink
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2008, 09:10:35 AM »

It's all a matter of how you spin the message. Wink
Isn't that the truth! Cheesy
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2009, 09:35:02 PM »

Forgive me for posting on old threads, but I couldn't resist! I grew up in the RCC and I noticed, as a young boy, that my mother would never enter church unless her head was covered. Slacks or pants were a big no-no for her, and she wouldn't take communion unless she had confessed the night before and was on a strict fast (moderator sir, I know this belongs on another thread, forgive me Roll Eyes). I know things change, but some things shouldn't. That's just my opinion.
Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
Xenia1918
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Praying for Divine guidance
Posts: 569



« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2011, 10:53:14 PM »

i vaguely remember reading somewhere that head coverings originiated with the assyrians and the christians and muslims adapted this practice from them. i think it's a personal choice and i would never judge anyone one way or another. i don't think head coverings are the issue really when i see all the woman/girls at church on parade in skimpy/tight clothing.

I Bet it's a continuation from the synagoge . Jewish women who are Orthodox cover their heads as do the men.

In Orthodox Judaism, only MARRIED women cover their hair....and its their hair they are covering, not so much their head (though of course by covering their hair they also cover their head.) They cannot let even one strand of hair show, and many wear sheitlach (which are wigs designed to cover all their natural hair.) The intent is to make them unattractive to men other than their husbands.

In Numbers chapter 5 part of the test for an adulterous woman is to remove her head covering (because in ancient times only prostitutes went about uncovered). This is why the Theotokos is always portrayed with a headcovering, in both Eastern and Western art.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 10:59:50 PM by Xenia1918 » Logged

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

REAL RC: http://www.traditionalmass.org
REAL OC: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com
Tags: head coverings proper behavior 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.153 seconds with 70 queries.