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Author Topic: IndianOrthodox Church Face Online Threat From Eastern Rite Catholic Church  (Read 2654 times) Average Rating: 0
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theorthodoxchurch
georgy
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« on: August 10, 2008, 04:12:53 AM »


I would like to invite the attention of all members to an important issue.


Kindly read the following

Indian(Malankara) Orthodox Church/Orthodox Syrian Church of the East the Church of St.Thomas


Relationship between Indian (Malankara) Orthodox Church and Malankara Catholic Rite

There have been some tensions between the two Churches since the origin of the Malankara Catholic Rite in 1930 when Archbishop Mar Ivanious joined the Roman Catholic Church. During the past three years the tension are on the hike even though it is not been exhibited publicly. This was especially after the declaration of the Malankara Catholic Rite that their primate has been elevated to the Position of ‘Catholicose’ in the year 2005, along with the elevation of their Church to the Archie- Episcopal Status by the Holy See. This has caused further confusions for the Orthodox Church of the East.

The Malankara Orthodox Church had an enquiry with the Vatican on the issue. The Holy See responded that ‘Catholicose’ title has not been granted to the Major Archbishop of the Malankara Catholic Rite. This has been clearly mentioned in the letter (PRONT N: 2581/2005/h) send to the Malankara Orthodox Church from the Holy See by His Eminence Cardinal Walter Casper dated on 18 June 2005. But it seems that the declarations from the Holy See are not at all applicable to the Malankara Catholic Rite and her Leadership. Many a times they have used the title ‘Catholicose’ along with Major Archbishop, to address the Primate of the Malankara Catholic Church in news papers, public forum, official documents of the Church, magazines, Church publication etc.

The Issue

The New Malankara Metropolitan Angry

Check the following link
http://www.catholicate.net/major_archbishop.html

http://www.malankara.net/about.php?id=75

International Home page

http://www.syromalankara.org/church/the-hierarchy.html


All the above websites claim the following

MORAN MOR BASELIOS CLEEMIS CATHOLICOS is the

Successor of the Apostolic See of St. Thomas in India

Malankara Metropolitan

Major Archbishop-Catholicos
of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church

Major Archbishop of Trivandrum

As accepted worldwide there is only one Successor to the Apostolic See of St Thomas and that is His Holiness Catholicose of the all East and Malankara Metropolitan who is the Supreme Primate of the Malankara Orthodox Church. The present Catholicose of the East and Malankara Metropolitan is His Holiness Moran Mor Baseluis Marthoma Dydimos I. Then how can His Grace BASELIOS CLEEMIS claim that he is enthroned on the Throne of St.Thomas?

As per the doctrines, faith and believes of the Roman Catholic Church, there is only one Apostolic Throne and that is the Throne of St. Peter His Holiness Pope is enthroned on throne of St. Peter. Then how can be there another throne in the Roman Catholic Church which belongs to St.Thomas?

Many a times the Priest and lay men of the Malankara Catholic Rite has used the title ‘His Holiness BASELIOS CLEEMIS CATHOLICOS’ at several public forums and meetings. There is only one His Holiness in the Roman Catholic Church and that is His Holiness Pope Himself, then how can there be another His Holiness along with His Holiness Pope?

Earlier they claimed the throne of Malankara and now they claim the throne of St Thomas. Very shortly all Kalpana by the Major Archbishop will carry the title ‘Successor of St Thomas’.

Remember the recent books; a statement from Vatican does not address the Syro Malankara Major Archbishop as Catholicose.

I have some questions for the Malankara Catholic

1. The People and the Malankara Catholic Prelates claim the H B Baselious Clemis Can Use the title ‘Catholicose’. But what about the letter issued by the Holy See (PRONT N: 2581/2005/h) which Cleary mentions that ‘no Catholicose’ title has been issued to the Head of Malankara Catholic rite. Decisions taken by the Holy See is normally applicable to all rites, but what is very special to the Malankara Catholic Rite? Is the Malankara Catholic rite above the Holy See?

2. There is only one His Holiness in the Roman Catholic Church and that is His Holiness Pope Himself. Then How does anther ‘HIS HOLINESS’ possible in one of most tiny rites in the Roman Catholic Church?? The Malankara Catholic Rite has publicly displayed boards at Trivandrum and elsewhere addressing their Primate as His Holiness!! Are they still under the Control of Rome or does HB Baselious Cleemis considered above the status of His Holiness Poe by the rest of the Roman Catholic rites and members?? Then What about the Status of His Eminence Cardinal and Major Archbishop Mar Varkey Vithayathil and Archbishop His Grace Most. Rev.Dr. M. Soosa Pakiam??? Are they both above below His Holiness Pope or HB Baselious Cleemis???

3. In the recent books, notes, documents issued by Vatican it has been clearly mentioned that the title of the Primate of the Malankara Catholic rite is Major Archbishop, nothing more or nothing less!!!

4. According to the beliefs and traditions of the Roman Catholic Church there is one Apostolic Throne and that is the Throne of St.Peter and His Holiness Pope is enthroned on it. The how can be another Throne (Throne of St Thomas) in the Same Roman Catholic Church?? How can His Beatitude Baselius Cleemis Enthroned on the Apostolic Throne of St.Thomas???

5. The Vatican Has recognized the Supreme Primate of the Malankara Orthodox Church as the 'Catholicose of the Apostolic Throne of St.Thomasand Malankara Metropolitan'.

6. The title Catholicose of the all East has been granted by the Jerusalem Synod. The First catholicose of the East was St.Thomas Himself. The Present Catholicose of the East is His Holiness Baselius Marthoma Dydioms I who is the 90th successor to the throen of St Thomas. Then how can

Online Evidence: (CNEWA (Catholic Near East Welfare Association Website- A Papal Agency for humanitarian and Patrol Support )

http://www.cnewa.us/ecc-bodypg-us.aspx?eccpageID=9&IndexView=toc


Check below what the Holy See has mentioned about the title of the Primate of the Syr-Malankara Church.

http://www.cnewa.us/ecc-bodypg-us.aspx?eccpageID=66&IndexView=toc

It has been clearly mentioned that the title is - Major Archbishop of Trivandrum of the Syro-Malankars.

It is always better to remember the following

“You may fool some people some time
You may fool some people all the time,
But you cannot fool all people all the time”


I request all forum memebers to respond to this posting


Thanks
George Alexander
www.theorthodoxchurch.info
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 05:55:25 AM by theorthodoxchurch » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2008, 06:32:59 AM »

What response do you want?
On one hand the a pope admits (supposedly) that unity based on the ________ (insert appropriate "U"-word) model was a mistake while on the other hand it continues to employ that exact same method.
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2008, 07:51:58 PM »

In reply to your questions:

1.  The current Code of Canon of the Eastern Churches does not list the title Catholicos.  The Codes formerly in force did equate the title of Catholicos with Major Archbishop, i.e an Archbishop with jurisdiction over metropolitans but without the title of patriarch.  I assume the Syro Malankar Catholics use the title because it is the one traditionally used in that tradition.

2.  All the above sites reference Mar Baselios as His Beatitude, the correct address for a major archbishop/patriarch not His Holiness.

3.  See 1.

4.  Untrue, the Catholic Church recognizes that other Sees are Apostolic, particularly Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem.

5.  Rome recognizes three Catholic and two Orthodox Patriarchs in Antioch, it can recognize two in India.

6.  See 5.   

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2008, 03:29:38 AM »

Dear Fr. Deacon Lance

Consider the Following

We Indian (Malankara) Orthodox Church does not have a problem in Major Archbishop title of the Syro -Malankra Primate. We do accept it.

What we are against is the use of title 'Catholicose'  and Malankara Metropolitan, as well as claiming that their primate i the Successor of St.Thomas in India. What is the number of his successorship to the throne of St.Thomas? Why did they start claiming it after the year 2005' ie  after raising their Church to the Archi - Episcopal Status by the Vatican?? Prior to that the never claimed it. They started using the 'throne of Malankara and then slowly shifted to the 'Throne of St.Thomas'. Is this the right attitude. This is double stand and not expected of a Church. 

The Syro Malakara Catholic Rite also use term Moron Mar to address their Primate. It means His Holiness. There is only one His Holiness in the Roman Catholic Church and it is His Holiness Pope or did the Pope himself gave a special consideration to the Primate of the Syro malankara Rite???

What about the letter issued by the Vatican (PRONT N: 2581/2005/h) which clearly mentions that ‘no Catholicose’ title has been issued to the Head of Malankara Catholic rite. Is this applicable to the Malankara Catholic Rite. If it is not applicable, that means they are not in communion with the Vatican.

Consider the below link

CNEWA (Catholic Near East Welfare Association Website- A Papal Agency for humanitarian and Patrol Support )

http://www.cnewa.us/ecc-bodypg-us.aspx?eccpageID=9&IndexView=toc

The Vatican Clearly mentions the title of the Primate of the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church as the Catholicos of  the Apostolic Throne of St Thomas!!!

Also Check

Check below what the Holy See has mentioned about the title of the Primate of the Syro-Malankara Church.

http://www.cnewa.us/ecc-bodypg-us.aspx?eccpageID=66&IndexView=toc

It has been clearly mentioned that the title is - Major Archbishop of Trivandrum of the Syro-Malankars.

If the above details are not applicable to the Syro Malankara Catholic Rite they are again in breach with the Rome.

Yes Rome do recognize Other Apostolic Sees, but do the Roman Catholic Church recognize two Apostolic Thrones in the Same Church Huh One by St Peter and Poe as the Successor and the Other by St.Thomas were the Primate of Syro- Malankara id Enthroned??   How does both thrones cope up?? are they of the equal status?? If they are of the equal status, His Holiness Pope and Hid Beatitude Baseliuos Cleemis are of the equal status!!! Is that possible in the Roman Catholic Church???

Or kindly as Vatican to withdrew their website!!!


regards
George Alexander
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2008, 10:08:52 PM »

I would suggest to the Catholic Church in India to elect a Catholicos that would be he spiritual leader for the three rites that are practiced in India: Syro-Jacobite (Malankar), Syro-Chaldean (Malabar) and even the Latin Rite.

This way, the term Catholicos would make more sense and would be used by a Bishop who would be the Primate of All India for Catholics. It would also help Malabars to solve their own problems by being part of a National Church (they complain that the Vatican wants them to be under the jurisdiction of the Chaldean Patriarchate in Iraq).

After all, the Indian Catholic Churches seem to be some of the most succesful all over the world.
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 09:53:01 AM »

What response do you want?
On one hand the a pope admits (supposedly) that unity based on the ________ (insert appropriate "U"-word) model was a mistake while on the other hand it continues to employ that exact same method.

This seems to be the same as with the move from Lviv to Kiev of his primate for his Ukrainians.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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