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Author Topic: Open and loud corrections during and after Liturgy by Hierarchs  (Read 3668 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 08, 2008, 08:27:39 PM »

I realize that my question may not apply to those Orthodox whose parish perform the Divine Liturgy 100% in English and your input is welcome.

In the GOA, my Hierarch likes to openly (and loudly) correct his Deacons, the Chanters and anyone else if a Greek word is mispronounced.  Is there a way to tactfully deal with a Hierarch's open and loud corrections short of telling the Hierarch if He doesn't like how people are speaking the Liturgy (in Greek) that He can serve the entire Liturgy alone without Chanters, Choirs, etc.

Mods - if this is suited for something other than Liturgy, please move accordingly.   Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2008, 08:43:12 PM »

Well, it depends how it happens:

If the chanters chant something, and the Hierarch simply repeats the mispronounced word, there's nothing outrageously wrong with that, though still a little odd.

If, however, he stops Liturgy or makes a big deal about it, or causes disruption, then there are two things that could be done:

1.) Approach him after he is finished handing out the antidoron and politely point out that it's distracting when he loudly corrects things. If he becomes aggressive, then engage him in a conversation about it, making sure to firmly get your point across;

2.) Approach your priest and tell him the bishop is being out of line.


I would probably opt for #1, but then again I'm young and idealistic.  Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2008, 09:18:28 PM »

I personally know two priests who do this quite regularly. Also, I know a choir director who makes the choir stop and re-sing or re-say a word in the slavonic which has not been sung/said properly. I have started to see this as a good thing-much like the careful attention to detail attributed to the scribes as they scrupulously copied the Torah. It is this attention to detail which likely has  helped to preserve our Faith intact to this day. I know what my godly Russian friends would say! "It's good for humility!"

I remember one time at a vigil service, the choir forgot to sing "Blessed is the Man" and in its place started singing "Gospodi Vozvakh" (Lord I have cried). I was busy praying at the time, not so much concentrating on the words, and so I was very puzzled why our good deacon was standing up there frantically  punctuating the air with his orar', glancing over to the choir and saying firmly, "Blazhen Muzh!" (Blessed is the Man). This happened several times, until finally, he realized it was a lost cause-the choir was clueless that night! Just a folksy little tale of fond memory...
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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2008, 09:25:48 PM »

Two thoughts (and I make them knowing fully why your hierarch does this - I've heard him do it myself):

1. The hierarch in question doesn't like it when people who can't speak a foreign language do it anyway; if you can't do Greek, then don't.  The Liturgy isn't a means of practice, and it certainly isn't Language Lab for the celebrants; and it cannot be gibberish to those listening - if you're trying to speak Greek, do it well, just as if you're trying to speak English, do it well also.  If I spork Angles nat tu wel, then in the context of Liturgy it trivializes the service to a point.

2. Correcting on the spot, while in bad taste and not very helpful to those who are making the mistakes (btw: I'm against correcting on the spot - I'd rather wait for a quiet moment to do it), it does actually clarify what the word is supposed to be for those listening intently.  Remember, books are a recent addition (and I don't think they are as much an aid as a distraction), and additionally, we are a Faith that has fought over one letter in a word before (Homoousios versus Homoiousios) - proper pronunciation and speech is critical to staying out of heresy.   
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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2008, 10:19:19 PM »

 
Two thoughts (and I make them knowing fully why your hierarch does this - I've heard him do it myself):

1. The hierarch in question doesn't like it when people who can't speak a foreign language do it anyway; if you can't do Greek, then don't.  The Liturgy isn't a means of practice, and it certainly isn't Language Lab for the celebrants; and it cannot be gibberish to those listening - if you're trying to speak Greek, do it well, just as if you're trying to speak English, do it well also.  If I spork Angles nat tu wel, then in the context of Liturgy it trivializes the service to a point.

I'm in agreement with you.  In fact, one would be motivated to use English because His Emimence was born in USA - not in a Greek speaking land.  Personally, I would use the language of the vernacular (e.g. English) in any dealings I have with His Emimence.

2. Correcting on the spot, while in bad taste and not very helpful to those who are making the mistakes (btw: I'm against correcting on the spot - I'd rather wait for a quiet moment to do it), it does actually clarify what the word is supposed to be for those listening intently.  Remember, books are a recent addition (and I don't think they are as much an aid as a distraction), and additionally, we are a Faith that has fought over one letter in a word before (Homoousios versus Homoiousios) - proper pronunciation and speech is critical to staying out of heresy.

Said Hierarch once told a choir director why he didn't use so and so's arraignment for the Divine Liturgy rather than such and such's arraignment (It was Pascha and I forgot the names of the arraignments).  While the Hierarch means well in correcting the Greek, I agree that there is a better time and place for a correction or for providing constructive criticism than during the middle of the Divine Liturgy.  After all, Christ didn't rebuke those who mocked him and neither ought an Hierarch publicly rebuke those who minister to the Lord Himself.   Smiley  I would use that as a comeback if I were rebuked....
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2008, 02:19:20 AM »

1. The hierarch in question doesn't like it when people who can't speak a foreign language do it anyway; if you can't do Greek, then don't.  The Liturgy isn't a means of practice, and it certainly isn't Language Lab for the celebrants; and it cannot be gibberish to those listening - if you're trying to speak Greek, do it well, just as if you're trying to speak English, do it well also.  If I spork Angles nat tu wel, then in the context of Liturgy it trivializes the service to a point.

So, if a Greek priest came into my parish and tried to sing the Trisagion in English, even though he could not do it very well and some of the words became slurred, I would be justified in yelling, "It's Holy! Not Oley!"

Frankly, if I mispronounce a word during a Greek hymn, I don't care one bit. And if the priest/bishop/yaya doesn't like it, then either deal with it, or change the language of the Liturgy to the country it is being practiced in. And personally, I wouldn't want the latter, because I think Greek is a beautiful language.
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2008, 12:12:26 AM »

arraignment
I believe you may mean "arrangement."
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2008, 12:47:49 AM »

^ Thank You once again, Mr. Y!  I could have swore that my first spelling was applicable for music and I'm glad that I learned otherwise.    Wink
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2008, 01:48:14 PM »

The hierarch in question should be more tactful, but I have to sympathize with his wish for things to be said correctly.  Nothing annoys me more than when chanters accidentally say something that's not just incorrect but happens to be blasphemous, and don't bother to go back and say it right.  It wouldn't always be appropriate for someone else to say something loudly to correct that person, but I can understand why they do.
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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2008, 02:12:01 PM »

So, if a Greek priest came into my parish and tried to sing the Trisagion in English, even though he could not do it very well and some of the words became slurred, I would be justified in yelling, "It's Holy! Not Oley!"

While that's funny, I had clearly stated that I don't think it's ok to correct in mid-service.  So no, you wouldn't be justified.

Frankly, if I mispronounce a word during a Greek hymn, I don't care one bit. And if the priest/bishop/yaya doesn't like it, then either deal with it, or change the language of the Liturgy to the country it is being practiced in. And personally, I wouldn't want the latter, because I think Greek is a beautiful language.

You should care quite a bit - if you're mispronouncing the word, then you're either changing the meaning of the hymn, or saying baby-talk.  Either way, you've done what you shouldn't do, which is change the divine services for no reason.  Greek is indeed a beautiful language, and if you want to sing it in church, one should practice outside of church to work on one's pronunciation.  (Of course I'm a big hypocrite.... Please forgive me.)
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2008, 10:15:55 PM »

There has been a lot of water under the bridge (linguistically speaking) since the Liturgy was composed in the common language of the people. So, considering that the language of the Liturgy is one that is really no longer spoken, do we actually know if anyone, even the Greeks, pronounce it correctly? And even the Greeks have different regional accents that must affect the way things are pronounced? I don't ask this to be contentious, but out of genuine interest.
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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2008, 07:42:45 PM »

^ Thank You once again, Mr. Y!  I could have swore that my first spelling was applicable for music and I'm glad that I learned otherwise.    Wink
Actually, your spelling is a legal term meaning "calling someone to court to answer an indictment."
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« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2008, 09:04:21 PM »

There has been a lot of water under the bridge (linguistically speaking) since the Liturgy was composed in the common language of the people. So, considering that the language of the Liturgy is one that is really no longer spoken,

Greek pronunciation has remained constant throughout the Centuries.

do we actually know if anyone, even the Greeks, pronounce it correctly? And even the Greeks have different regional accents that must affect the way things are pronounced? I don't ask this to be contentious, but out of genuine interest.

Those of us have attended Ecumenical Patriarchal Divine Liturgies where 99.9999% of everything is done in Greek.  All Greek words are pronounced correctly independent of regional accents, etc.  I've never seen a Patriarch openly correct anyone during a Liturgy even though my presence at one Liturgy in 2004 isn't enough of a basis to conclude anything.   Wink
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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2008, 09:09:11 PM »

Greek pronunciation has remained constant throughout the Centuries.

That's not true; there is textual evidence through the tracking of errors and mistakes that proves that pronunciation has changed, and that pronunciation changes have led to spelling changes.

Those of us have attended Ecumenical Patriarchal Divine Liturgies where 99.9999% of everything is done in Greek.  All Greek words are pronounced correctly independent of regional accents, etc.  I've never seen a Patriarch openly correct anyone during a Liturgy even though my presence at one Liturgy in 2004 isn't enough of a basis to conclude anything.   Wink

Well, there is a Cypriot accent - but you are correct that Liturgical Greek is pronounced the same way in all areas (or, at least that is my experience).  By the way - if you're serving Liturgy with the Patriarch, chances are better than not that (a) you don't need correction, or (b) that one of the Metropolitans will do the correcting for him.  I know (b) has happened, as I've heard stories from hierarchs about their time as deacons at the Patriarchate, either making mistakes or making the mistake of being too proud/flashy.
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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2008, 10:25:44 PM »

Greek pronunciation has remained constant throughout the Centuries.

This is, of course, impossible.  Smiley

Quote
All Greek words are pronounced correctly independent of regional accents, etc. 

I'm not sure that this is the case. I suppose the attempt can be made, but in the end an accent (regional, English, American, whatever) will affect the way Greek words are pronounced. I remember attending a Liturgy where an American priest, who had lived for many years in Greece, was serving and behind me a Greek lady was complaining about the priest's pronunciation to her English husband all the way through.
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2008, 11:04:13 PM »


I'm not sure that this is the case. I suppose the attempt can be made, but in the end an accent (regional, English, American, whatever) will affect the way Greek words are pronounced.

Quite true! His Eminence KALLISTOS of Diokleia has a very dignified English accent, which is striking to hear when expressed through Greek!
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2008, 11:36:30 PM »

I realize that my question may not apply to those Orthodox whose parish perform the Divine Liturgy 100% in English and your input is welcome.
Here's my $0.02 fwiw.  The Divine Liturgy should be spoken in the lingua franca of the country it's being celebrated, ergo, in America it should be said/sung in English.  Forcing Americans to speak another language that most don't understand is silly and 1) makes Eastern Orthodox Christians seem like nationalistic foreigners or some kind of culture club at best and 2) makes unity that much more of a pipe dream.  I don't say this to hurt anyone (and btw, I love hearing the DL in other languages), but this is something that will need to be addressed eventually.

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Gabriel   
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2008, 11:42:47 PM »

Here's my $0.02 fwiw.  The Divine Liturgy should be spoken in the lingua franca of the country it's being celebrated, ergo, in America it should be said/sung in English.  Forcing Americans to speak another language that most don't understand is silly and 1) makes Eastern Orthodox Christians seem like nationalistic foreigners or some kind of culture club at best and 2) makes unity that much more of a pipe dream.  I don't say this to hurt anyone (and btw, I love hearing the DL in other languages), but this is something that will need to be addressed eventually.

In Christ,

Gabriel   

I absolutely agree and I don't think that they should abolish the language completely but rather have it on certain special occasions instead of English being on a special occasion (which happens in Melbourne, Victoria where our parishes have 100% greek)
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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2008, 11:48:09 PM »

Here's my $0.02 fwiw.  The Divine Liturgy should be spoken in the lingua franca of the country it's being celebrated, ergo, in America it should be said/sung in English.  Forcing Americans to speak another language that most don't understand is silly and 1) makes Eastern Orthodox Christians seem like nationalistic foreigners or some kind of culture club at best and 2) makes unity that much more of a pipe dream.  I don't say this to hurt anyone (and btw, I love hearing the DL in other languages), but this is something that will need to be addressed eventually.

In Christ,

Gabriel   

Regardless of your reasonable and well-supported opinion, this discussion isn't about what languages should be used in Liturgy, but rather about which ones are, and how they are rendered, and how to appropriately deal with incorrect rendering of said language.  From my experience serving with every hierarch of the GOA's synod save Bishop DEMETRIOS of Mokissos (Chancellor of Chicago), the hierarchs don't want clergy to use a language that they can't properly render; usually it is the individual clergy who are at fault for using a language that they can't properly render.  I've even seen a few hierarchs specifically instruct deacons and priests to not use Greek (because said hierarch knew that the person wouldn't speak it properly), and then seen the clergyman in question use it anyway, often with disastrous results.  While pride may indeed be present in the person of the corrector (who decides to do such correction during the divine services, for all to hear), it is also likely present in the correctee.
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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2008, 10:10:30 PM »

Regardless of your reasonable and well-supported opinion, this discussion isn't about what languages should be used in Liturgy, but rather about which ones are, and how they are rendered, and how to appropriately deal with incorrect rendering of said language. 
Unless I misunderstood the quote from the OP (found below), I believe the discussion was actually meant to address a particular hierarch's tactles and insulting behavior.  If I'm correct in my understanding, I would seek a private audience with said hierarch and explain that his well-meaning corrections are alienating his parishoners; embarrasing them and creating feelings of resentment.  I would further point out that, as a shephard of souls, and that since he cares deeply about his flock, maybe he could pull them aside individually and praise them for trying to speak a language they don't fully understand, much less speak.  In my experience in management, sincere praise and approbation will always trump criticism.   

Is there a way to tactfully deal with a Hierarch's open and loud corrections short of telling the Hierarch if He doesn't like how people are speaking the Liturgy (in Greek) that He can serve the entire Liturgy alone without Chanters, Choirs, etc.

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Gabriel
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2008, 11:34:48 PM »

Unless I misunderstood the quote from the OP (found below), I believe the discussion was actually meant to address a particular hierarch's tactles and insulting behavior.

Your interpretation is correct.  I was looking for feedback from others in this forum who probably don't have a Hierarch as abrasive as mine in the New Jersey Metropolitanate.   Smiley  I realize that the laity and the Archons in the Metropolitan of New Jersey have very little if any sway as to mending this Hierarch's ways.

If I'm correct in my understanding, I would seek a private audience with said hierarch and explain that his well-meaning corrections are alienating his parishoners; embarrasing them and creating feelings of resentment.  I would further point out that, as a shephard of souls, and that since he cares deeply about his flock, maybe he could pull them aside individually and praise them for trying to speak a language they don't fully understand, much less speak.  In my experience in management, sincere praise and approbation will always trump criticism. 

You can take the Hierarch out of Astoria, NY but you can't take the Astoria, NY out of the Hierarch.  His predecessor, Bishop George of Blessed Memory: a widower, was a very intelligent and well-spoken individual who wasn't abrasive.
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2008, 08:26:38 PM »

You can take the Hierarch out of Astoria, NY but you can't take the Astoria, NY out of the Hierarch.  His predecessor, Bishop George of Blessed Memory: a widower, was a very intelligent and well-spoken individual who wasn't abrasive.

The best way to deal with your hierarch's loud corrections of others is to have one of his trusted priests address it to him (which they're not going to do, BTW).  Otherwise, prayer, patience, and fasting are your weapons.
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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2008, 01:48:55 AM »

Ironically, in each of the hierarchical liturgies I've been at, the bishop has made some change in the liturgy which had the choir madly paging to figure out where he had jumped to.
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2008, 12:57:43 AM »

I realize that my question may not apply to those Orthodox whose parish perform the Divine Liturgy 100% in English and your input is welcome.

In the GOA, my Hierarch likes to openly (and loudly) correct his Deacons, the Chanters and anyone else if a Greek word is mispronounced.  Is there a way to tactfully deal with a Hierarch's open and loud corrections short of telling the Hierarch if He doesn't like how people are speaking the Liturgy (in Greek) that He can serve the entire Liturgy alone without Chanters, Choirs, etc.

Mods - if this is suited for something other than Liturgy, please move accordingly.   Smiley
I was at a Holy Week Service, where I am quite sure I was the only non-Greek, where the VERY Greek hierarch repeatedly "corrected" the choir, chanters, etc. by singing, at certain points (it seemed in an attempt at some equilibrium) LOUDLY in English, after they started in Greek.  Afterwards he gave a sermon in English and Greek, speaking about how the Americans are deprived of these services, by being in an unknown language, etc. Since this hierarch has a (well earned) reputation of being ethno-centric, it was nice to see things aren't always what they seem.
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2010, 03:39:33 AM »

Two thoughts (and I make them knowing fully why your hierarch does this - I've heard him do it myself):

1. The hierarch in question doesn't like it when people who can't speak a foreign language do it anyway; if you can't do Greek, then don't.  The Liturgy isn't a means of practice, and it certainly isn't Language Lab for the celebrants; and it cannot be gibberish to those listening - if you're trying to speak Greek, do it well, just as if you're trying to speak English, do it well also.  If I spork Angles nat tu wel, then in the context of Liturgy it trivializes the service to a point.

2. Correcting on the spot, while in bad taste and not very helpful to those who are making the mistakes (btw: I'm against correcting on the spot - I'd rather wait for a quiet moment to do it), it does actually clarify what the word is supposed to be for those listening intently.  Remember, books are a recent addition (and I don't think they are as much an aid as a distraction), and additionally, we are a Faith that has fought over one letter in a word before (Homoousios versus Homoiousios) - proper pronunciation and speech is critical to staying out of heresy.  

I'm coming very late to the party to say that I agree with this.

I have been corrected numerous times, usually after the service or quietly in the altar.  I suppose some mistakes require immediate correction for the sake of the faithful or of preventing sure and certain disruption to the service if it is allowed to continue.  I always welcome the correction because my faith is grounded in the liturgies of the Church in many ways, and I have known, from time to time, what it is to have my prayer and worship disrupted by clergy/servers/readers/choir, innovating, bumbling, or generally taking a slipshod approach to the worship of God.  It can cause frustration, which is most unhealthy as we approach the throne of God in worship, and it is sometimes difficult to return to the place of humility and awe that should be our mindset in the Liturgy.

In taking part in the liturgical offering to God, I want to give the best that I can and I certainly do not want to cause a similar temptation to others.  I fail but then I try again.  I would think that all of us would have that attitude.  Therefore, if I'm doing something incorrectly, I want to know about it so I can improve myself.  So yes, I am grateful for correction, and I usually thank people when they offer it, (or engage in discussion with them afterwards if it's something on which I know there is legitimate variation or when I wish for them to clarify so I can understand my mistake).  I certainly don't want to be "that slovenly subdeacon who keeps messing things up", to the point where I'm more of a hindrance than a help, and clergy try to find some reason not to invite me to serve without hurting my feelings if I visit their churches on special occasions.

So while I agree that very public correction is perhaps not the best way to go about things, (unless absolutely necessary), and that a bishop who habitually does this perhaps needs to re-examine the necessity of it and take into consideration the embarrassment and unnecessary hurt that this can cause, I also think that those who are corrected in this way should also practise some humble introspection.

St Barsanuphius the Great:
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'When anyone is disturbed or saddened under the pretext of a good and soul-profiting matter, and is angered against his neighbour, it is evident that this is not according to God: for everything that is of God is peaceful and useful and leads a man to humility and to judging himself.

Instead of arching my back and taking offence because a bishop/priest/layperson has become frustrated with my mistakes and corrected me, I should remember that such frustration does not exist in a vacuum but that it is a response to my mistakes - something I have done.  While the person doing the correcting may be wrong to get frustrated and may be wrong to humiliate me by correcting me in such a loud and public way, the fact remains that the temptation for him to do this would not be there at all if I would just do things properly in the first place.  How can we lay temptations before people and then condemn them when they fall?  Even if we ourselves don't consider the matter to be of any great significance, and don't mind whether it is done one way or another, surely we should still try to do it well if only for the sake of avoiding causing our brother to stumble.

Whatever it is, just do it properly.  If you don't know how, ask somebody to teach you.  If you know how but can't do it well, ask for guidace or get somebody to help you practise.  We are brothers and sisters - we help each other and grow together.  Then we come together and offer the best we have to God.  And if we make a mistake, which happens sometimes, then we simply ask forgiveness and try again, because what I find as somebody who, (for various personal reasons) has had "doing it well", "getting it right" drilled into me from childhood as the way to approach anything, is that this is not a legalistic perfectionism.  What bothers me is not when people are trying to do it well and make a mistake, but rather when they do it incorrectly, make mistakes, and seem not to be bothered, making no effort at correction or improvement, and then react with pride when people try to offer help.  I am not a very good Christian in many ways, but it seems to me that this is not how we should come before our Maker in worship.

In Christ,
the liturgically-inept-but-trying-his-hardest Subdeacon Michael
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2010, 10:23:44 AM »

Whatever the language, it should be clear and intelligible. The work of God should not be performed shoddily. And that's just not my inner Benedictine speaking. (Out-loud correction may be lacking in tact, but I would prefer it to the lash.)
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« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2010, 11:09:36 AM »

Overall, the following advice from Apostle Paul should be paramount: "So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified." (1 Corinthians 14:15-17).

The practical application would be to use the vernacular and not a liturgical language. For example, the use of Church Slavonic in Russian speaking parishes and other-than-vernacular Greek in Greek-speaking parishes is simply wrong. The use of other than the vernacular is indeed like those Pentecostals who pray in unknown tongues.
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« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2010, 12:37:19 PM »

Two thoughts (and I make them knowing fully why your hierarch does this - I've heard him do it myself):

1. The hierarch in question doesn't like it when people who can't speak a foreign language do it anyway; if you can't do Greek, then don't.  The Liturgy isn't a means of practice, and it certainly isn't Language Lab for the celebrants; and it cannot be gibberish to those listening - if you're trying to speak Greek, do it well, just as if you're trying to speak English, do it well also.  If I spork Angles nat tu wel, then in the context of Liturgy it trivializes the service to a point.

2. Correcting on the spot, while in bad taste and not very helpful to those who are making the mistakes (btw: I'm against correcting on the spot - I'd rather wait for a quiet moment to do it), it does actually clarify what the word is supposed to be for those listening intently.  Remember, books are a recent addition (and I don't think they are as much an aid as a distraction), and additionally, we are a Faith that has fought over one letter in a word before (Homoousios versus Homoiousios) - proper pronunciation and speech is critical to staying out of heresy.   

Here's ethics:

Does the Diocese provide Greek language education? I mean a real, rigorous language education.

What about scholarships to University (home or abroad) for Greek classes?


While there is of course no excuse for ignorance, of any kind, ever, it is a hard thing for authorities to impose "correction" upon those who have little primary substance to improve on in the first place.

What language are people speaking at trapeza anyway?
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« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2010, 01:10:02 PM »

Here's ethics:

Does the Diocese provide Greek language education? I mean a real, rigorous language education.

What about scholarships to University (home or abroad) for Greek classes?

While there is of course no excuse for ignorance, of any kind, ever, it is a hard thing for authorities to impose "correction" upon those who have little primary substance to improve on in the first place.

What language are people speaking at trapeza anyway?

My point was that if one cannot speak Greek, or at least read it aloud well, then one shouldn't attempt it in Liturgy, period.  We don't have 6 year-olds who cannot pronounce "Corinthians" go up and read the Epistle - the message would be lost in the gibberish.  Loud corrections notwithstanding, most hierarchs I have served with or spoken to would rather have the deacon or priest not even attempt the petition/prayer in Greek if they cannot read/exclaim it properly (That's Liturgical Ethics) - this is divorced from the debate about what language should be used in the Liturgy.  If you are a Greek-speaking deacon in the CoG and want to do English petitions because you have tourists, you should only do them if you can read/pronounce them correctly.  If you're going to sound like you're saying, (Lord, forgive me) "For the piss from above, and the salivation of our souls, lit us prayee to the Lord,"  then don't bother - read it in your comfortable language instead.
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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2010, 01:16:18 PM »

Here's ethics:

Does the Diocese provide Greek language education? I mean a real, rigorous language education.

What about scholarships to University (home or abroad) for Greek classes?

While there is of course no excuse for ignorance, of any kind, ever, it is a hard thing for authorities to impose "correction" upon those who have little primary substance to improve on in the first place.

What language are people speaking at trapeza anyway?

My point was that if one cannot speak Greek, or at least read it aloud well, then one shouldn't attempt it in Liturgy, period.  We don't have 6 year-olds who cannot pronounce "Corinthians" go up and read the Epistle - the message would be lost in the gibberish.  Loud corrections notwithstanding, most hierarchs I have served with or spoken to would rather have the deacon or priest not even attempt the petition/prayer in Greek if they cannot read/exclaim it properly (That's Liturgical Ethics) - this is divorced from the debate about what language should be used in the Liturgy.  If you are a Greek-speaking deacon in the CoG and want to do English petitions because you have tourists, you should only do them if you can read/pronounce them correctly.  If you're going to sound like you're saying, (Lord, forgive me) "For the piss from above, and the salivation of our souls, lit us prayee to the Lord,"  then don't bother - read it in your comfortable language instead.

Father, that reminds me when Pope Paul VI came to NYC and celebrated the Liturgy, when he said "Peace be with you."  It sounds like what you stated above.  After that all Liturgies by the Pope, when visiting a country, where in Latin.   Shocked
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« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2010, 01:22:35 PM »

I think there are two ways that one can make public corrections: lovingly and coldly.  I have seen both.  Of course, how such nuances are interpreted is a matter of personality and, more especially, culture.

As a whole, I think Mediterraneans such as Western and Eastern Italians (some call the latter 'Greeks,' but as an Italian I know the truth Wink ) tend to play 'hard ball' in public settings much more than Anglos and Northern Italians (such as Germans and Swedes), who tend to be more stoic in public.  Italians have no problem screaming at each other even in public, whereas most 'Mericans would wince in horror at such episodes.

Nonetheless, I have seen hierarchs chide people during services, and do it in such a way that the point was made without embarrassment or hard feelings.

One thing which is very important for hierarchs and clergy to realize is that their behavior must be acceptable to all those present, and not scandalize the visitor.  This is an impossible task in certain respects, since so much of what we do as Orthodox is scandalous to this generation, but we must nonetheless make our best effort not to embarrass ourselves in front of our guests, if only for the Gospel.
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« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2010, 01:29:50 PM »

My bishop, Archbishop Antony, when he corrects me does it after the Liturgy. Tho, I think a couple of times he has done it during the Liturgy, but very quietly.  And he usually apologizes for doing so.
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« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2010, 01:38:03 PM »

When Metropolitan Paul of Australia visited our parish, people were a bit timid on the Amens at the epiclesis, and he turned around and said, "What's the matter? You don't agree with me?" After that, they said the Amens louder.

I've been at a service where a bishop said, "Louder!" during the Creed, and "Chant it, Father" when the priest read the Gospel without intonation.
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« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2010, 02:07:37 PM »

If you are a Greek-speaking deacon in the CoG and want to do English petitions because you have tourists, you should only do them if you can read/pronounce them correctly.  If you're going to sound like you're saying, (Lord, forgive me) "For the piss from above, and the salivation of our souls, lit us prayee to the Lord,"  then don't bother...

Fr George, thank you so much for this well-needed laugh.

Father, that reminds me when Pope Paul VI came to NYC and celebrated the Liturgy, when he said "Peace be with you."  It sounds like what you stated above.

At least they got to say, 'And also with you'  laugh

M
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« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2010, 02:41:36 PM »

Here's ethics:

Does the Diocese provide Greek language education? I mean a real, rigorous language education.

What about scholarships to University (home or abroad) for Greek classes?

While there is of course no excuse for ignorance, of any kind, ever, it is a hard thing for authorities to impose "correction" upon those who have little primary substance to improve on in the first place.

What language are people speaking at trapeza anyway?

My point was that if one cannot speak Greek, or at least read it aloud well, then one shouldn't attempt it in Liturgy, period.  We don't have 6 year-olds who cannot pronounce "Corinthians" go up and read the Epistle - the message would be lost in the gibberish.  Loud corrections notwithstanding, most hierarchs I have served with or spoken to would rather have the deacon or priest not even attempt the petition/prayer in Greek if they cannot read/exclaim it properly (That's Liturgical Ethics) - this is divorced from the debate about what language should be used in the Liturgy.  If you are a Greek-speaking deacon in the CoG and want to do English petitions because you have tourists, you should only do them if you can read/pronounce them correctly.  If you're going to sound like you're saying, (Lord, forgive me) "For the piss from above, and the salivation of our souls, lit us prayee to the Lord,"  then don't bother - read it in your comfortable language instead.

I didn't realize that a choice was implied. That makes a big difference. I think you're right. People are basically just making mistakes on purpose in that scenario.

By the way, I'm giving a piano concert tonight on behalf of my favorite charity. I don't actually play the piano, but somebody has to do it. Kidding.

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