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Offline yas

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little "t" traditions and cultures
« on: February 21, 2016, 10:40:14 PM »
So I have been in a few different churches since my journey started. I am currently in the Greek OC. I have been to a Russian OC and spent  over 6 months in an Antiochian OC. So I have noticed the small "t" traditions. I am wondering, are there other cultures besides Russian, Greek, and Antiochian?

At the Greek OC I am a part of now, we have some Russian women who do certain traditions from their upbringing. It is interesting to learn about, but of course, makes me feel like an outsider. I guess I hope someone would say, "Oh sure there are Irish and/or Swedish Orthodox Churches!" And therefore small "t" traditions from them. I guess what I am trying to work out, is that I would feel like a fake to make a Koliva, for an example.

I am someone who is attached to their traditions (being brought up Irish RC, there are a lot of small "t" traditions as well). So I feel like I am pretending. It's funny since Father spoke about how these small "t" traditions are not as big of a deal and that we should focus on the Big "T" traditions that make the OC the OC.

Do any other converts feel the same way? It's like I want to dive right in and become a part of my church's culture, but I feel like a big fool at the same time!

And I am married and wonder what would happen when I have children? Do I bring them up with these Greek and Russian little "t" traditions that are not my own?  :-\

The things I worry about...Lord have mercy.

Offline hecma925

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2016, 10:45:39 PM »
I made koliva for a panakhida.  One Russian lady whose husband we were also commemorating commented how my koliva was very Greek.  But she gave me a big hug, because everyone received plenty.

Just be real with the faith and with love.
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Offline yas

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2016, 10:48:14 PM »
I made koliva for a panakhida.  One Russian lady whose husband we were also commemorating commented how my koliva was very Greek.  But she gave me a big hug, because everyone received plenty.

Just be real with the faith and with love.

Thank you! I tend to worry about these insignificant details. Perhaps I need to pray more and worry less. :)


Offline hecma925

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2016, 10:58:11 PM »
Perhaps I need to pray more and worry less. :)
Sounds like a good suggestion for all.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2016, 11:43:57 PM »
My diocese has Greek origins, but it went under Polish omophorion and tried to get some Slavic traditions. It's pretty mixed.
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Offline Dominika

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2016, 06:12:36 AM »
My diocese has Greek origins, but it went under Polish omophorion and tried to get some Slavic traditions. It's pretty mixed.

Actually, Polish Church before the Russian occuppation used to be more tied to Southern Slavic traditions than Russian ones. Now, at some parishes and monasteries, fortunately the thigns are coming back.

But, e.g which Greek traditions do you maintain?
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2016, 06:50:13 AM »
Actually, Polish Church before the Russian occuppation used to be more tied to Southern Slavic traditions than Russian ones. Now, at some parishes and monasteries, fortunately the thigns are coming back.

This is very interesting. Can you give some examples of things that are coming back in some Polish parishes and monasteries? Also, if you know, can you say something about what people think about this? (My experience has been that in general people don't very much like change, especially in religion.)

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2016, 09:32:01 AM »
As I told my priest when we were preparing to enter the church, I already have an ethnic heritage (multiple, actually); I don't intend to become Ukrainian. He agreed.

That being said, we're incorporating some of the customs we find into our own family life, and we're bringing some of our own customs into church life. For example, my family has always made pizzagaina (Italian Easter pie) for Easter. We now put this in our Pascha basket. It even has more meaning now, because pizzagaina is a pie filled with meats and cheeses. I never got the connection before entering the Orthodox Church.

Eventually, those of us "in the diaspora" will develop our own unique flavor of customs as all of these disparate cultures blend together.
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Offline Dominika

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2016, 09:41:01 AM »
Actually, Polish Church before the Russian occuppation used to be more tied to Southern Slavic traditions than Russian ones. Now, at some parishes and monasteries, fortunately the thigns are coming back.

This is very interesting. Can you give some examples of things that are coming back in some Polish parishes and monasteries? Also, if you know, can you say something about what people think about this? (My experience has been that in general people don't very much like change, especially in religion.)

Unfortunately, we know quite a little about customs here before Russians came. For sure, there was a huge variety, you can't compare Lemkos (that still maintanin their own traditions) and Huculs with Podlachians and people in Lubelszczyzna. And some of these customs were of the Greek Catholic period.

For example, very little thing, but still: less Russian phenolions, instead of them flat ones. Way of chanting (e.g we had own Supraśl chant, and now Russians do more it than plus; moroerve, some of chans coming from Polish lands are somwhere in German or other archives, as they were stolen). Frescoes in new churches.

Don't know actually what people think about it, but in villages close to Saki monastery faithful rather paprove it, but it's a great and constant work of the monks.
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Offline mike

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2016, 10:32:31 AM »
Unfortunately, we know quite a little about customs here before Russians came. For sure, there was a huge variety, you can't compare Lemkos (that still maintanin their own traditions) and Huculs with Podlachians and people in Lubelszczyzna. And some of these customs were of the Greek Catholic period.

For example, very little thing, but still: less Russian phenolions, instead of them flat ones. Way of chanting (e.g we had own Supraśl chant, and now Russians do more it than plus; moroerve, some of chans coming from Polish lands are somwhere in German or other archives, as they were stolen). Frescoes in new churches.

If little is known about customs before "Russians came" how do you know they were closer to Balkan ones?
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Offline Dominika

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2016, 10:40:02 AM »
Unfortunately, we know quite a little about customs here before Russians came. For sure, there was a huge variety, you can't compare Lemkos (that still maintanin their own traditions) and Huculs with Podlachians and people in Lubelszczyzna. And some of these customs were of the Greek Catholic period.

For example, very little thing, but still: less Russian phenolions, instead of them flat ones. Way of chanting (e.g we had own Supraśl chant, and now Russians do more it than plus; moroerve, some of chans coming from Polish lands are somwhere in German or other archives, as they were stolen). Frescoes in new churches.

If little is known about customs before "Russians came" how do you know they were closer to Balkan ones?

Little known doesn't mean "nothing".

Well, some things were transmteid orally, e.g I've heard from people (that heard from their ancestors) there was  atradtion of huge crosses in the middle of the church (as it's in Georgia), flat phenolions were a characterisitc feature of priests coming from Poland to Russia, it's also said we don't have exact typikon as Russian one, closer to Southern Slavic ones (that's what I've heard from one of the professors), there are also works on the ties between Polish Orthodox and Serbs (frescoes in Supraśl are a clear example, but there was something more I've read by profesor Czarota, and also heard from T. Sulima).

Anyway, I wish there were much more investigations, both on Western and Southern influences on Orthodoxy in Poland before Russian period.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2016, 12:45:25 PM »
My diocese has Greek origins, but it went under Polish omophorion and tried to get some Slavic traditions. It's pretty mixed.

Actually, Polish Church before the Russian occuppation used to be more tied to Southern Slavic traditions than Russian ones. Now, at some parishes and monasteries, fortunately the thigns are coming back.

But, e.g which Greek traditions do you maintain?

Interesting, I recall Abp. Chrysostom talking about how diverse the ecclesiastical customs in Poland were, maybe this Russian + South Slavic mix has something to do with it?

On Greek traditions, we use a Greek style of chant (Byzantine maybe?), some Greek keywords and sentences inside the Portuguese text and we don't have those small prosphora. There are some other details a Russian deacon mentioned to me, but I don't remember all of them right now. I think kissing the calyx and singing the Symbol of Faith and the Lord's Prayer, though, are Slavic customs that we do. I may be wrong.

Yesterday I saw a Patriarchal celebration in an Antiochian cathedral and this same Russian deacon first sung the Symbol of Faith, then recited the Lord's Prayer. Maybe the custom there was to recite both and he unknowingly sung the Creed, then he was corrected and proceeded to recite the Lord's Prayer?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2016, 01:52:52 PM »
...there was  atradtion of huge crosses in the middle of the church (as it's in Georgia)...

Interesting.  Would you speak about this a little more, either here or in another thread? 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Alpo

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2016, 02:02:33 PM »
I guess I hope someone would say, "Oh sure there are Irish and/or Swedish Orthodox Churches!"

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« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 02:03:04 PM by Alpo »
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Offline Dominika

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2016, 05:33:44 PM »
RaphaCam, thank you for much for the info, it's very interesting :); unfortunately, we don't know so much about life of our parishes in Brazil.

I think kissing the calyx and singing the Symbol of Faith and the Lord's Prayer, though, are Slavic customs that we do. I may be wrong.
Kissing - only Eastern Slavic (and I'm even not sure that Lemkos and other Rusyns do that), e.g in Serbia it's not present.
The Credo - among various Slavs actually both traditions - of singing and of reciting it - exist. Even there is a diversity in the Serbian Church (among parishes), in Polish too.

...there was  atradtion of huge crosses in the middle of the church (as it's in Georgia)...

Interesting.  Would you speak about this a little more, either here or in another thread?
Well, I've been just informed that it used to be; now in Polish churches, like among (other) Eastern Slavs, there are crosses of the Christ's crucifixion, with the Theotokos and st. John. And sometimes - depending on the parish - they're in the middle of the temple during the Great Lent (that's not correct, as crucifixion hasn't happenned before Good Friday plus Great Lent it's not about Christ's passion like it's in RC Church and Protestant ones), but some concious priests are struggling with this "tradition".

The "Georgian" crosses are different froom the crucifixion ones, as they present major feasts.

Similarly, in Serbian tradition, in the middle of the church there is a kind of round platform (it can be from stone or a material placed on the wood) and it's not only for bishop. And it's the same place like of these huge crosses, maybe it's a coincidence, and maybe not...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 05:33:58 PM by Dominika »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2016, 05:51:46 PM »
...there was  atradtion of huge crosses in the middle of the church (as it's in Georgia)...

Interesting.  Would you speak about this a little more, either here or in another thread?
Well, I've been just informed that it used to be; now in Polish churches, like among (other) Eastern Slavs, there are crosses of the Christ's crucifixion, with the Theotokos and st. John. And sometimes - depending on the parish - they're in the middle of the temple during the Great Lent (that's not correct, as crucifixion hasn't happenned before Good Friday plus Great Lent it's not about Christ's passion like it's in RC Church and Protestant ones), but some concious priests are struggling with this "tradition".

The "Georgian" crosses are different froom the crucifixion ones, as they present major feasts.

Similarly, in Serbian tradition, in the middle of the church there is a kind of round platform (it can be from stone or a material placed on the wood) and it's not only for bishop. And it's the same place like of these huge crosses, maybe it's a coincidence, and maybe not...

So these are not specifically "Lenten" practices?
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Dominika

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2016, 05:57:09 PM »
...there was  atradtion of huge crosses in the middle of the church (as it's in Georgia)...

Interesting.  Would you speak about this a little more, either here or in another thread?
Well, I've been just informed that it used to be; now in Polish churches, like among (other) Eastern Slavs, there are crosses of the Christ's crucifixion, with the Theotokos and st. John. And sometimes - depending on the parish - they're in the middle of the temple during the Great Lent (that's not correct, as crucifixion hasn't happenned before Good Friday plus Great Lent it's not about Christ's passion like it's in RC Church and Protestant ones), but some concious priests are struggling with this "tradition".

The "Georgian" crosses are different froom the crucifixion ones, as they present major feasts.

Similarly, in Serbian tradition, in the middle of the church there is a kind of round platform (it can be from stone or a material placed on the wood) and it's not only for bishop. And it's the same place like of these huge crosses, maybe it's a coincidence, and maybe not...

So these are not specifically "Lenten" practices?
Wow, I've just seen I hadn't ended the sentence, I'm sorry:
now in Polish churches, like among (other) Eastern Slavs, there are crosses of the Christ's crucifixion, with the Theotokos and st. John
on the left or right wall of the church the whole year. The rest goes as I've written, plus that these Gergian crosses are the whole year in the middle of the church (and that's what used to be Polish tradition too).
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2016, 06:11:49 PM »
...there was  atradtion of huge crosses in the middle of the church (as it's in Georgia)...

Interesting.  Would you speak about this a little more, either here or in another thread?
Well, I've been just informed that it used to be; now in Polish churches, like among (other) Eastern Slavs, there are crosses of the Christ's crucifixion, with the Theotokos and st. John. And sometimes - depending on the parish - they're in the middle of the temple during the Great Lent (that's not correct, as crucifixion hasn't happenned before Good Friday plus Great Lent it's not about Christ's passion like it's in RC Church and Protestant ones), but some concious priests are struggling with this "tradition".

The "Georgian" crosses are different froom the crucifixion ones, as they present major feasts.

Similarly, in Serbian tradition, in the middle of the church there is a kind of round platform (it can be from stone or a material placed on the wood) and it's not only for bishop. And it's the same place like of these huge crosses, maybe it's a coincidence, and maybe not...

So these are not specifically "Lenten" practices?
Wow, I've just seen I hadn't ended the sentence, I'm sorry:
now in Polish churches, like among (other) Eastern Slavs, there are crosses of the Christ's crucifixion, with the Theotokos and st. John
on the left or right wall of the church the whole year.

Gotcha!

Quote
The rest goes as I've written, plus that these Gergian crosses are the whole year in the middle of the church (and that's what used to be Polish tradition too).

This is what I am particularly interested in, if you ever come across any information about it: origins, practice, variations, etc.
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Agabus

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2016, 06:26:37 PM »
My time has been spent in two parishes that serve all of the Orthodox community around because there aren't enough of us to make for multiple ethnic-qualifier churches. I'm honestly unsure what traditions are Greek, Russian, etc., since the priests and laity seem pretty happy to celebrate them all. Since I don't know the difference, it's all Orthodox tradition to me.

FWIW, if you spent time in an Arab-heavy Antiochian parish, you probably saw some Russian traditions. Antiochians do all sorts of Russian stuff.
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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2016, 07:21:53 PM »
That being said, we're incorporating some of the customs we find into our own family life, and we're bringing some of our own customs into church life. For example, my family has always made pizzagaina (Italian Easter pie) for Easter. We now put this in our Pascha basket. It even has more meaning now, because pizzagaina is a pie filled with meats and cheeses. I never got the connection before entering the Orthodox Church.

There is also an "Italian Easter Bread" I believe it is called, that has whole Easter eggs baked into it.

Offline yas

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2016, 08:04:08 PM »
I am so glad to hear that many people incorporate their own past traditions into their lives within OC little "t" traditions! I am very much into family and cultural traditions so I love this and it is important to me. My husband; not so much. He didn't even know he was Russian and Native American until I did some research and found out!

Offline mike

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2016, 10:26:04 AM »
Unfortunately, we know quite a little about customs here before Russians came. For sure, there was a huge variety, you can't compare Lemkos (that still maintanin their own traditions) and Huculs with Podlachians and people in Lubelszczyzna. And some of these customs were of the Greek Catholic period.

For example, very little thing, but still: less Russian phenolions, instead of them flat ones. Way of chanting (e.g we had own Supraśl chant, and now Russians do more it than plus; moroerve, some of chans coming from Polish lands are somwhere in German or other archives, as they were stolen). Frescoes in new churches.

If little is known about customs before "Russians came" how do you know they were closer to Balkan ones?

Little known doesn't mean "nothing".

Well, some things were transmteid orally, e.g I've heard from people (that heard from their ancestors) there was  atradtion of huge crosses in the middle of the church (as it's in Georgia), flat phenolions were a characterisitc feature of priests coming from Poland to Russia, it's also said we don't have exact typikon as Russian one, closer to Southern Slavic ones (that's what I've heard from one of the professors), there are also works on the ties between Polish Orthodox and Serbs (frescoes in Supraśl are a clear example, but there was something more I've read by profesor Czarota, and also heard from T. Sulima).

Anyway, I wish there were much more investigations, both on Western and Southern influences on Orthodoxy in Poland before Russian period.

Since the Church in Poland "went under Russia" in 1686 it's hard for me to believe there is organic memory about customs before that time. And prior to the Synod of Połock most parishes were Greek Catolic and heavily latinised. Russians reintroduced Orthodoxy on those lands but IMO it's not proper to say they destroyed local Orthodox traditions as there were no local Orthodox traditions at that time. They just introduced their own intead of Corpus Christi, organs and what else had been present in Greek Catholic parishes of that time.
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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2016, 10:38:28 AM »
I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the Latinization of Greek Catholic parishes requires a complete transplant of Russian Orthodox customs for them to return to Orthodoxy. Also, the zeal for de-Latinization has often resulted in the abolition of authentic Orthodox traditions which happened not to fit with dominant Russian or Greek practice- for instance, replacing prostopinije with Kievan chant or Russian choral compositions.
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Offline mike

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2016, 10:49:45 AM »
I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the Latinization of Greek Catholic parishes requires a complete transplant of Russian Orthodox customs for them to return to Orthodoxy. Also, the zeal for de-Latinization has often resulted in the abolition of authentic Orthodox traditions which happened not to fit with dominant Russian or Greek practice- for instance, replacing prostopinije with Kievan chant or Russian choral compositions.

Prior to Synod of Polotsk Eastern Catholics in Poland and Belarus had organs, pews, Corpus Christi, confessionals, no iconostasises, rosaries, silent Liturgies, stations of the Cross, sanctus bells, and bishops looking like that. It's not that "evil Russians" came and imposed high phelonions.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 10:52:17 AM by mike »
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Offline Dominika

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2016, 01:04:21 PM »
I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the Latinization of Greek Catholic parishes requires a complete transplant of Russian Orthodox customs for them to return to Orthodoxy. Also, the zeal for de-Latinization has often resulted in the abolition of authentic Orthodox traditions which happened not to fit with dominant Russian or Greek practice- for instance, replacing prostopinije with Kievan chant or Russian choral compositions.
+1
And especially that Russian Church that time was highly influenced by Western world too, but not in form of Greek Catholics of course.


Mike, how would you explain this fact then, that Lemkos in Poland, who used to be Greek Catholic for a long time period, maintained their local customs, that are similar to Southern Slavnic, not Russian ones?

I'm aware of the fact that Greek Catholicism destroyed a lot of pure Orthodox things, but, still, they were Eastern.
And the pics of the bishop you posted is quite similar to the Serbian bishops of that time (not only in the regions that were occuppied by Austria).






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Offline Ainnir

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2016, 04:25:22 PM »
There is also an "Italian Easter Bread" I believe it is called, that has whole Easter eggs baked into it.

My mom made that!  We're not at all Italian, though, I don't think.

I'm not opposed to walking into an ethnic church and observing whatever it is they are used to observing.  It's my household that I'd like to keep true to our own mixed heritages, such as they are.  We're 3rd and 4th or better generation; so much is watered down.

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2016, 05:43:08 PM »
I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the Latinization of Greek Catholic parishes requires a complete transplant of Russian Orthodox customs for them to return to Orthodoxy. Also, the zeal for de-Latinization has often resulted in the abolition of authentic Orthodox traditions which happened not to fit with dominant Russian or Greek practice- for instance, replacing prostopinije with Kievan chant or Russian choral compositions.
+1
And especially that Russian Church that time was highly influenced by Western world too, but not in form of Greek Catholics of course.


Mike, how would you explain this fact then, that Lemkos in Poland, who used to be Greek Catholic for a long time period, maintained their local customs, that are similar to Southern Slavnic, not Russian ones?

I'm aware of the fact that Greek Catholicism destroyed a lot of pure Orthodox things, but, still, they were Eastern.
And the pics of the bishop you posted is quite similar to the Serbian bishops of that time (not only in the regions that were occuppied by Austria).







I had been told that in areas where the influence of the Basilian order was highest, the eagerness to Latinize was the fiercest.
Where they were not as influential and where the Jesuits (yes, those Jesuits) had greater influence, the westernization was never as fierce. this may be due to the preferences of the ruling powers - as the Basilians were not powerful in the AH kingdom. One can see this to the present day simply by observing the rubrics of the independent (sui juris not in the UGCC)  Greek Catholic Eparchy of Mucachevo from the neighboring Eparchies of the UGCC. The Polish Kingdom was after all overwhelmingly Roman Catholic, while the Austro-Hungarian Kingdom was both religiously and ethnically diverse.

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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2016, 06:16:17 PM »
What does all of that ^^^ have to do with this:

So I have been in a few different churches since my journey started. I am currently in the Greek OC. I have been to a Russian OC and spent  over 6 months in an Antiochian OC. So I have noticed the small "t" traditions. I am wondering, are there other cultures besides Russian, Greek, and Antiochian?

At the Greek OC I am a part of now, we have some Russian women who do certain traditions from their upbringing. It is interesting to learn about, but of course, makes me feel like an outsider. I guess I hope someone would say, "Oh sure there are Irish and/or Swedish Orthodox Churches!" And therefore small "t" traditions from them. I guess what I am trying to work out, is that I would feel like a fake to make a Koliva, for an example.

I am someone who is attached to their traditions (being brought up Irish RC, there are a lot of small "t" traditions as well). So I feel like I am pretending. It's funny since Father spoke about how these small "t" traditions are not as big of a deal and that we should focus on the Big "T" traditions that make the OC the OC.

Do any other converts feel the same way? It's like I want to dive right in and become a part of my church's culture, but I feel like a big fool at the same time!

And I am married and wonder what would happen when I have children? Do I bring them up with these Greek and Russian little "t" traditions that are not my own?  :-\

The things I worry about...Lord have mercy.
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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2016, 07:23:25 PM »
What does all of that ^^^ have to do with this:

So I have been in a few different churches since my journey started. I am currently in the Greek OC. I have been to a Russian OC and spent  over 6 months in an Antiochian OC. So I have noticed the small "t" traditions. I am wondering, are there other cultures besides Russian, Greek, and Antiochian?

At the Greek OC I am a part of now, we have some Russian women who do certain traditions from their upbringing. It is interesting to learn about, but of course, makes me feel like an outsider. I guess I hope someone would say, "Oh sure there are Irish and/or Swedish Orthodox Churches!" And therefore small "t" traditions from them. I guess what I am trying to work out, is that I would feel like a fake to make a Koliva, for an example.

I am someone who is attached to their traditions (being brought up Irish RC, there are a lot of small "t" traditions as well). So I feel like I am pretending. It's funny since Father spoke about how these small "t" traditions are not as big of a deal and that we should focus on the Big "T" traditions that make the OC the OC.

Do any other converts feel the same way? It's like I want to dive right in and become a part of my church's culture, but I feel like a big fool at the same time!

And I am married and wonder what would happen when I have children? Do I bring them up with these Greek and Russian little "t" traditions that are not my own?  :-\

The things I worry about...Lord have mercy.

If you don't know, what something has to do with another thing, it's always about money. Or power. Or sex.

But, actually, it's a classical off-top, the thing that started to exist when Internet forums were invented.

And the off-top is caused by European Orthodox cradles (well, I'm half cradle) that don't understand American dilemmas.
Because, even if in Poland a RC Pole converts to Orthodoxy, he/she meets very similar customs, or even the same. It's usually more about liturgics (and in some cases, the liturgical language).
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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2016, 09:52:30 PM »
I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the Latinization of Greek Catholic parishes requires a complete transplant of Russian Orthodox customs for them to return to Orthodoxy. Also, the zeal for de-Latinization has often resulted in the abolition of authentic Orthodox traditions which happened not to fit with dominant Russian or Greek practice- for instance, replacing prostopinije with Kievan chant or Russian choral compositions.

Prior to Synod of Polotsk Eastern Catholics in Poland and Belarus had organs, pews, Corpus Christi, confessionals, no iconostasises, rosaries, silent Liturgies, stations of the Cross, sanctus bells, and bishops looking like that. It's not that "evil Russians" came and imposed high phelonions.
Nobody is calling the Russians evil, denying that Greek Catholics had Latinizations but not all were as latinized to the same degree nor did being latinized make their native traditions un-Orthodox, like the now called Ruthenian Recension liturgics or plain chant style which were replaced by Niconian liturgics and Russian style chant and polyphony.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 09:53:29 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Re: little "t" traditions and cultures
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2016, 06:21:38 AM »
Mike, how would you explain this fact then, that Lemkos in Poland, who used to be Greek Catholic for a long time period, maintained their local customs, that are similar to Southern Slavnic, not Russian ones?

Because they (partly) went under Russians only after WW II and some have never been.
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