Author Topic: BEM and the Lima Liturgy  (Read 2295 times)

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Offline CBGardner

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BEM and the Lima Liturgy
« on: May 19, 2011, 08:44:51 PM »
In 1982 the WCC released a paper Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry which was supposed to help member churches reach agreement on sacraments with the specific goal being inter-Eucharist (the Lima Liturgy being a service that was created for RC's, EO's, and Protestants to share communion at). Supposedly there is an Orthodox response to this, but I'm having trouble finding it. Does anyone have any resources on the Orthodox response?

A google search offered this (http://www.usccb.org/seia/valamo.shtml), but that's an Orthodox/Catholic response which I am weary of. Any help would be nice!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 08:45:11 PM by CBGardner »
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: BEM and the Lima Liturgy
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2011, 02:13:52 PM »
I don't know if there is an Orthodox rejection or position paper on this so-called Lima 'Liturgy', however, this link from the WCC itself, "The Special Commission on Orthodox Participation in the World Council of Churches: Frequently asked questions" is interesting to say the least and, from my point of view, debunks many of the more wild critiques that certain dissident Orthodox groups have made against 'world' Orthodoxy, i.e.the mainstream Orthodox world. http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/who/special-faqs-e.html  There is this passing reference to the 'Lima Liturgy':

"Why is the term "common prayer" being suggested to replace "ecumenical worship"?

The term "ecumenical worship" which is used very widely among the English-speaking Protestant churches has created difficulties when translated into an Orthodox setting and the respective languages. Worship, in an Orthodox setting, refers quite naturally to the liturgy which always includes the celebration of the Eucharist.

"Ecumenical worship", in addition, gives the impression that the ecumenical movement has reached the point where there is a common liturgy. While many in the Protestant churches have felt that the "Lima Liturgy" had the authority of an ecumenical liturgy and therefore enabled the member churches of the WCC to celebrate the Eucharist together, in fact, the "Lima liturgy" has not been officially adopted by any church, and the WCC cannot issue its own liturgy."

Offline Peter J

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Re: BEM and the Lima Liturgy
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2011, 10:38:04 PM »
I don't know if there is an Orthodox rejection or position paper on this so-called Lima 'Liturgy', however, this link from the WCC itself, "The Special Commission on Orthodox Participation in the World Council of Churches: Frequently asked questions" is interesting to say the least and, from my point of view, debunks many of the more wild critiques that certain dissident Orthodox groups have made against 'world' Orthodoxy, i.e.the mainstream Orthodox world. http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/who/special-faqs-e.html  There is this passing reference to the 'Lima Liturgy':

"Why is the term "common prayer" being suggested to replace "ecumenical worship"?

The term "ecumenical worship" which is used very widely among the English-speaking Protestant churches has created difficulties when translated into an Orthodox setting and the respective languages. Worship, in an Orthodox setting, refers quite naturally to the liturgy which always includes the celebration of the Eucharist.

"Ecumenical worship", in addition, gives the impression that the ecumenical movement has reached the point where there is a common liturgy. While many in the Protestant churches have felt that the "Lima Liturgy" had the authority of an ecumenical liturgy and therefore enabled the member churches of the WCC to celebrate the Eucharist together, in fact, the "Lima liturgy" has not been officially adopted by any church, and the WCC cannot issue its own liturgy."


Good quote. I think the Catholic objections are similar.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 10:39:32 PM by Peter J »
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Offline mike

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Re: BEM and the Lima Liturgy
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2011, 06:38:30 AM »
The RCC is not a member of the WCC.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: BEM and the Lima Liturgy
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2011, 08:11:22 AM »
The RCC is not a member of the WCC.

True.
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Offline CBGardner

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Re: BEM and the Lima Liturgy
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2011, 11:37:03 PM »
Well here is the report of the special committee (http://www2.wcc-coe.org/ccdocuments.nsf/index/gen-5-en.html) and is lists in it that the Orthodox churhces wrote a specific response which it what I'm trying to locate.

Thanks for the comments so far.
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Offline jah777

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Re: BEM and the Lima Liturgy
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2011, 02:16:53 AM »
Well here is the report of the special committee (http://www2.wcc-coe.org/ccdocuments.nsf/index/gen-5-en.html) and is lists in it that the Orthodox churhces wrote a specific response which it what I'm trying to locate.

Thanks for the comments so far.

Could you quote the part of the text which indicates that the Orthodox churches wrote a specific response to BEM?  I haven't heard of such an official response from any Orthodox church.  In the document you referenced, this is the only statement I could find that seemed relevant:

Quote
19. Future discussions can build upon work already done together over many years, including The Toronto Statement; The New Delhi Statement together with the Orthodox response; The Canberra Statement; The Common Understanding and Vision of the WCC; Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry and the church responses. It is important to take account of work already done on ecclesiology. The leadership of the WCC is asked to promote that work both within the structures of the WCC and by encouraging churches to continue in a process of reflection and response to that work.

It states that there was specifically an “Orthodox response” to the New Delhi Statement, but then it just says “[BEM] and the church responses.”  To me it is not clear whether this refers to an Orthodox response that was actually made, responses from non-Orthodox “churches” which would be discussed with the Orthodox as part of the Special Commission process, or hoped-for future Orthodox responses to BEM.  Is this the text you are referring to, or does it say somewhere else more explicitly that there were one or more official Orthodox responses?

Offline jah777

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Re: BEM and the Lima Liturgy
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2011, 09:50:42 AM »
Well here is the report of the special committee (http://www2.wcc-coe.org/ccdocuments.nsf/index/gen-5-en.html) and is lists in it that the Orthodox churhces wrote a specific response which it what I'm trying to locate.

Thanks for the comments so far.

Could you quote the part of the text which indicates that the Orthodox churches wrote a specific response to BEM?  I haven't heard of such an official response from any Orthodox church.  In the document you referenced, this is the only statement I could find that seemed relevant:

Quote
19. Future discussions can build upon work already done together over many years, including The Toronto Statement; The New Delhi Statement together with the Orthodox response; The Canberra Statement; The Common Understanding and Vision of the WCC; Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry and the church responses. It is important to take account of work already done on ecclesiology. The leadership of the WCC is asked to promote that work both within the structures of the WCC and by encouraging churches to continue in a process of reflection and response to that work.

It states that there was specifically an “Orthodox response” to the New Delhi Statement, but then it just says “Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry and the church responses.”  To me it is not clear whether this refers to an Orthodox response that was actually made, responses from non-Orthodox “churches” which would be discussed with the Orthodox as part of the Special Commission process, or hoped-for future Orthodox responses to BEM.  Is this the text you are referring to, or does it say somewhere else more explicitly that there were one or more official Orthodox responses?