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Poll
Question: What situation would you approve of for unity among Christians?
1. Heterodox change to Orthodox, EO doesn't change - 108 (81.8%)
2. Heterodox accepted under no conditions - 4 (3%)
3. EO changes and conforms to others - 3 (2.3%)
4. EO and heterodox meet halfway (all change) - 5 (3.8%)
5. No union under any circumstances - 12 (9.1%)
Total Voters: 132

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Author Topic: Ecumenism... Your opinion  (Read 16604 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« on: July 21, 2008, 01:41:37 PM »

I've seen many varying opinions on ecumenism on here, and I'm still not entirely sure what the definition of it is, or if everyone has varying definitions of it.

Do you support "ecumenism" and unity under which circumstances?

1. Heterodox churches interested in union w/ the Eastern Orthodox Church reject all heterodox beliefs and doctrines and accept Orthodox ones.
2. Heterodox churches are accepted under no pre-conditions and can continue in their current ways.
3. Unity is acheived through the alteration of Orthodoxy to conform to other churches.
4. Everyone meets halfway and everyone changes (Orthodox and heterodox).
5. No union at all under any circumstances

Personally, from what I've understood, to most Orthodox, the first condition is the one that is more Orthodox. That other churches have to change and become Orthodox and reject heterodox/offending beliefs.

I'm just interested to see what others think about this. Because I've seen so many various opinions about it, and how some people are very radically anti-union and others are dangerously (IMO) pro-union.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 09:43:41 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2008, 05:52:18 PM »

Personally, from what I've understood, to most Orthodox, the first condition is the one that is more Orthodox.
Nah.  Not the more Orthodox view; rather, the ONLY Orthodox view. Wink
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2008, 12:45:23 AM »

Nah.  Not the more Orthodox view; rather, the ONLY Orthodox view. Wink

Yup. Completely agree.
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2008, 01:41:53 AM »

^^Ditto that, brethren.
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2008, 01:55:05 AM »

"The fundamental goal and the primary task of the ecumenical movement is to re-interpret Christianity—or, in other words, to annihilate Orthodoxy completely." - Hieromonk Savva of the Holy Monastery of Decani, Serbia

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ecumenism_goals.aspx

What Are the Goals of Ecumenism?
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2008, 02:02:09 AM »

Members of heterodox communions are not Orthodox even if they accept Orthodox teachings. They would need to be recieved into the church thru the proper praxis, whether it be thru baptism and or chrismation or whatever kind of oikonomia for the reception of converts is allowable. They then must be placed under a right believing bishop with apostolic sucession (not back under the untrained formerly heterodox cleric) . 
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2008, 02:15:47 AM »

I don't remember who made the quote which I paraphrase as: Each non-Orthodox entity has to discover their own Orthodoxy from within and come back to the Church established by Christ through the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2008, 03:40:48 AM »

True Ecumenism is part of Orthodox Christianity being the one Universal True Faith in Jesus Christ which brings all mankind into unity.

The modern day ecumenism movement is just another man made Christian religion with its aim to distort the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Gospel and accept heretical and even blasphemous teachings which conform to the world.

Orthodox should not budge for no one.

Why aren’t the Catholics part of it?

Correct me if I'm wrong
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2008, 11:04:02 AM »

I thought this thread would discuss/debate the benefit or not of Christians of different groups talking to each other, which I support.

You can describe it as 'teaching the heterodox'.

No surprise here. 1. is the Orthodox position, end of story.

Roman Catholics do participate in ecumenism (officially since the 1960s) and on the same terms as the Orthodox: no compromise on the belief they are the one true church and no intercommunion/concelebration/clergy exchange.
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2008, 12:57:31 PM »

Why is it that it seems some people on this forum seem to believe the EP and others do not accept number 1 as an Orthodox answer... Yet others believe the EP and other leaders strictly abide by answer 1?

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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2008, 01:19:57 PM »

Why is it that it seems some people on this forum seem to believe the EP and others do not accept number 1 as an Orthodox answer... Yet others believe the EP and other leaders strictly abide by answer 1?



Because its obvious to some that the EP has at times wavered on the issue.
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2008, 02:14:24 PM »

Also, while reading "The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware... I was wondering, how can Orthodox learn from western Christians when western Christianity doesn't even reflect the Apostolic teachings/tradition at all?

If Orthodoxy became more open to the west, would it put itself very dangerously close to becoming more open to legalism, liberalism and modernism?

What does he mean when he says Orthodox must be more willing to learn from the west?
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2008, 02:53:26 PM »

I am firmly against what I see today; this "movement" ....'called' "ecumenism".

I completely ignor it.

I am for true relations with all who are willing to hear and accept the teachings and salvation of the Lord Jesus Christ, willing to live life as Christ commands His true faithful and follow the apostolic tradition which is the basis of the orthodox faith. That is not to say EO or OO.....but 'Orthodox'.

Orthodoxy must speak with one voice and communion worldwide before we can AGAIN be the true 'example' of the ONE UNIversal Church of God.

WE are making head-way.

Most of our problems are not Chalcedon and the "anathemas"; but stone hard loyalists who are eager to not have any resolve be realised within orthodoxy. These people are trying their hardest to hold the "door" to unity and peace closed. But based on current developments within orthodox the "door" is all but busted down to the ground. People are little by little are starting to walk in and and get equainted with each other again. This and other forums like this are helping thanks be to Gods grace and mercy.

It is a blessing.
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2008, 02:56:21 PM »

Timothy Ware

What does he mean when he says Orthodox must be more willing to learn from the west?

Ideas anyone???

I would like to know myself.
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2008, 06:26:18 PM »

My opinion is that Orthodoxy does little in regards to evangelism here in the US. The Catholic church does some evangelism, mostly in the form of public services. And protestant organizations like the Salvation Army, Campus Crusade for Christ and the like "win them to Christ" (their phrase not mine) but don't really know what to do with them once they get them. In that regard Orthodoxy could learn how to evangelize better. Converts from other Christian denominations are fine and dandy, but to have converts from atheism is really cool. There was a young lady at our parish that was an avowed atheist her entire life that was baptized, Chrismated and married in a month! Of course she started on the course to do that over a year earlier, but it was really cool!
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2008, 07:00:42 PM »

My opinion is that Orthodoxy does little in regards to evangelism here in the US. The Catholic church does some evangelism, mostly in the form of public services. And protestant organizations like the Salvation Army, Campus Crusade for Christ and the like "win them to Christ" (their phrase not mine) but don't really know what to do with them once they get them. In that regard Orthodoxy could learn how to evangelize better. Converts from other Christian denominations are fine and dandy, but to have converts from atheism is really cool. There was a young lady at our parish that was an avowed atheist her entire life that was baptized, Chrismated and married in a month! Of course she started on the course to do that over a year earlier, but it was really cool!

Atheists come to the Church all the time. Some of us just make a few pitstops along the way. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2008, 08:02:28 PM »

Also, while reading "The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware... I was wondering, how can Orthodox learn from western Christians when western Christianity doesn't even reflect the Apostolic teachings/tradition at all?

If Orthodoxy became more open to the west, would it put itself very dangerously close to becoming more open to legalism, liberalism and modernism?

What does he mean when he says Orthodox must be more willing to learn from the west?

What does Met. Kallistos say and in what context?
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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2008, 08:03:16 PM »

What does he mean when he says Orthodox must be more willing to learn from the west?

Lots of things.  Here are a few:

How to be better organised.  (Discernment must be used!)

How to discuss matters in polite and civil forums, without calling each other exotic zoological names or dismissing each other out of hand.

To use the western critical method as a valuable tool in scholarship, and not dismiss it out of hand as "scholastic" and be frightened of it.  Of course, in many ways nowadays this method  does go much too far, and one has to know where to cut it off.  But if sobriety and discernment are used in concert with a mature knowledge of Orthodox Tradition, this shouldn't be a problem. 

To appreciate great Western cultural movements and values and not dismiss them with fear and loathing, just because they happen to be Western.  Take what is good and embrace it, and leave out the bad, letting the Holy Spirit separate the wheat from the chaff.

Reflecting on things in a calm and objective manner when trying to discern the motives of others, and not resorting to a knee-jerk paranoia and anti-intellectual nationalistic xenophobia just because it seems to us that this attitude is so bound up with "who we are as Orthodox", when it actual fact it has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

Serving others.  (It's really unfair to say that the Orthodox have no tradition of helping the poor and the disadvantaged.   In point of fact, they do, it's just that because of persecution, historical accident and neglect,  these traditions have fallen into disuse.  I think we need to bring these traditions to light and to look at what Western ecclesial bodies do too...and some Orthodox are quietly making real progress here.)
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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2008, 08:21:40 PM »

I'm not sure what particular statement 88Devin12 is referring to, but here are some things that Met Kallistos has said about the West in a couple of interviews. I'll let the words speak for themselves, only to add that I completely agree (I'm sure that will make all the difference to His Emminence Tongue).

“We Orthodox who live in the West are heirs to the entire cultural and intellectual tradition of the West, much of which indeed is profoundly Christian. We are heirs to Dante, to Shakespeare, to Milton, to Wordsworth,” Bishop Kallistos continued passionately. “Of course we have our own Orthodox interpretation of their work. But if we are to play our role as Orthodox in the Western world we must be willing to listen and to learn from the spiritual masters of the Western tradition— yes, even from the world of the Enlightenment. Because this for us, and I speak as a Western convert, this for us is our own cultural heritage. We must not simply reject it and say ‘I shall only read Orthodox authors.’ Sometimes Orthodox say to me ‘Oh, I’m not going to waste my time reading Dante; he wasn’t Orthodox,’ which is a pity: for, if they did read Dante, they might learn a lot. Well, perhaps some people should just read Orthodox books. But others of us must surely engage in a dialogue with Western culture. Otherwise we are betraying our roles as Orthodox placed here in the West as mediators and witnesses. God did not put me in ninth-century Byzantium. He placed me in twenty-first-century Oxford. There must be a reason for that. Moreover, what is asked of us Orthodox is to listen as well as speak. All too often we carry on an Orthodox monologue. But we need to hear the voice of the other. Somebody said to a friend of mine (my friend is Christian, the person speaking to her was not): ‘The trouble with you Christians is you want to give us the answer before you bother to find out what our questions are!’ ”

I joined Bishop Kallistos in a hearty laugh.

Then he continued, “Now, I think we could apply that to Orthodoxy in the modern Western world. Before we give them all the Orthodox answers, which in any case we ourselves know so incompletely, we need to listen to what their questions are. We need to consider where these questions are coming from, what is the meaning of the whole experience of the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation, the Enlightenment? As a Westerner I should start from where they are.”

“And be able to share your own understanding, by understanding where they come from,” I added.

“That’s right. Again, speaking for myself,” I said, “I cannot give up the Enlightenment tradition. I am myself a product of it and I consider it a spark of the divine in history."

“The Spirit,”
Bishop Kallistos declared, “is working in all kinds of ways— even in a movement like secular feminism. It’s very easy for us Orthodox to be ironical about that, and certainly sometimes within the feminist movement there are some things that are just silly. But we would be very, very much in error to dismiss the movement as a whole. It is a serious movement, there is a real searching there, and the Spirit speaks in the most unexpected places. And so there is something in the feminist movement, even in its more anti-Christian forms, to which we ought to be listening and from which we can learn.”

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3735

In an interview recorded in Kyriakos Markides’ wonderful new book Gifts of the Desert, he encourages a careful but wholehearted engagement with the best that Western culture has to offer. “Christ is the lord of history,” reflects Bishop Kallistos. He continues: “We must look, then, for signs of the Truth, traces and footprints of the Truth, throughout our modern culture. . . . We Orthodox, particularly those of us who are Western converts, are often in danger of becoming church mice. We just live inside the church and nibble at the crumbs in the church, but we don’t look outside at the presence of Christ in the world as well. We Orthodox who live in the West are heirs to the entire cultural and intellectual tradition of the West, much of which indeed is profoundly Christian. We are heirs to Dante, to Shakespeare, to Milton, to Wordsworth. Of course we have our own Orthodox interpretation of their work. But if we are to play our role as Orthodox in the Western world we must be willing to listen and to learn from the spiritual masters of the Western tradition. . . . [Some] of us must surely engage in a dialogue with Western culture. Otherwise we are betraying our roles as Orthodox placed here in the West as mediators and witnesses.”

http://transfigurebatonrouge.blogspot.com/2007/07/harry-potter-and-orthodox-piety.html


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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2008, 08:25:28 PM »

Lots of things.  Here are a few:

How to be better organised.  (Discernment must be used!)

How to discuss matters in polite and civil forums, without calling each other exotic zoological names or dismissing each other out of hand.

To use the western critical method as a valuable tool in scholarship, and not dismiss it out of hand as "scholastic" and be frightened of it.  Of course, in many ways nowadays this method  does go much too far, and one has to know where to cut it off.  But if sobriety and discernment are used in concert with a mature knowledge of Orthodox Tradition, this shouldn't be a problem. 

To appreciate great Western cultural movements and values and not dismiss them with fear and loathing, just because they happen to be Western.  Take what is good and embrace it, and leave out the bad, letting the Holy Spirit separate the wheat from the chaff.

Reflecting on things in a calm and objective manner when trying to discern the motives of others, and not resorting to a knee-jerk paranoia and anti-intellectual nationalistic xenophobia just because it seems to us that this attitude is so bound up with "who we are as Orthodox", when it actual fact it has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

Serving others.  (It's really unfair to say that the Orthodox have no tradition of helping the poor and the disadvantaged.   In point of fact, they do, it's just that because of persecution, historical accident and neglect,  these traditions have fallen into disuse.  I think we need to bring these traditions to light and to look at what Western ecclesial bodies do too...and some Orthodox are quietly making real progress here.)


Excellent post!
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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2008, 08:42:38 PM »

Sigh. Yes, indeed. Very well articulated post, Pravoslavbob!
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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2008, 08:57:35 PM »


How to be better organised.  (Discernment must be used!)

That's a big one.  Ever notice how when Protestants organize something it starts on time?     Shocked Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2008, 09:17:13 PM »

Excellent post!

For my part, I really like how you've collected some of Metropolitan Kallistos' thought on this matter and put it in one place here.   Straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.   Wink
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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2008, 09:22:00 PM »

That's a big one.  Ever notice how when Protestants organize something it starts on time?     Shocked Shocked Shocked

lol! I'm afraid I'm guilty of being quite "traditionally" Orthodox on this one.  Wink
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« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2008, 10:11:21 PM »

That's a big one.  Ever notice how when Protestants organize something it starts on time?     Shocked Shocked Shocked
Can't say that about my priest.  LOL! laugh
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2008, 10:45:14 PM »

That's a big one.  Ever notice how when Protestants organize something it starts on time?     Shocked Shocked Shocked

That is a testament to God and the Orthodox church that the Holy Spirit is working and actually gets anything done with the Greeks. Cheesy
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2008, 10:47:25 PM »

For my part, I really like how you've collected some of Metropolitan Kallistos' thought on this matter and put it in one place here.   Straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.   Wink

laugh I just wasn't clever enough to summarise as you have done. Though, I am, quite unashamedly I have to admit, a great fan of Metropolitan Kallistos' writings.
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2010, 04:21:53 PM »

Ecuminism is the religion of the Anti-Christ. One Religion, One Economy, One Government. Thats what they are aiming at, to destroy the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We must have no communion with heritics: Catholics, Muslims, Buddists, or any of the other religion's created by satanic influence. The Vatican is the same as Ancient Rome, nothing has changed, its the whore of Babylon from the book of the Revelation Ch 13.
The Catholics killed over 50,000,000 during the inquisition's because they did not bow down to the evil Pope, the most horrific torture methods and devices were created then.
And now they are deceiveing everyone by lying tongues and evil deceptions, trying to create a one world religion so that all will bow down to the anti-christ, the pope could be the anti-christ. Its certainly the Whore of Babylon described in the Revelation, meaning the heretical church, the one that was drunken with the blood of the martyr's and the saint's.
That's Procisely what happened during the Papal Inquisitions, people were martyred because they did not worship the 'almighty' pope.

Our Orthodox Faith is being slowly destroyed by this 'Ecumenism', soon they will shut down the monasteries.
Look it up on YouTube There are some very enlightened Elder's that speak on all of this.

And the Pope wants to lie to everyone saying that, 'Oh we must be in union because of love'
But He's a LIAR, and we will not give in to his lies.

Read the Revelation it will tell you about the Whore of Babylon.

The Church Fathers have commentated on Revelation and they say that the Whore of Babylon is ROME.

They are trying to destroy the clean waters of Orthodoxy, they are trying to pollute the Doctrine's handed down by or Holy Father's of the Orthodox Church, which cannot be altered or changed, the 7 Ecumenical Councels have clearly defined all of this.

But very, very sadly, the Greek church is corrupted and on fire from having communion with Heretics, ROCOR too.
Please pray for our Orthodox leaders, everyone, don't let yourselves be deceived. WE CAN HAVE NO COMMUNION WITH HERETICS.
That is why some have made there own church. The Genuine Orthodox Church is a church that RESISTS THE HERESY OF ECUMINISM. Thank God, this is the remnant church!
The Church of the Last Days!

May Christ have mercy on us all in these evil days.
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2010, 04:30:51 PM »

The Vatican is the same as Ancient Rome, nothing has changed, its the whore of Babylon from the book of the Revelation Ch 13.

I have to say, that is the first time I've heard an Orthodox say that. I hear this out of the mouths of Protestants (most notably John Hagee).
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2010, 05:35:51 PM »

DON'T FEED THE TROLL!
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2010, 05:39:10 PM »

Despite the attempts of ecumenists to re-define ecumenism as missionary work... ecumenism is not missionary work.
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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2010, 05:58:04 PM »

This is a very old book written by Fr. John Meyendorff, but it is still relevant: 
Witness to the World (New York, St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1987)

Why participate in ecumenical activity?
“The answer to this question is simple: the mission of the Church requires it. As Orthodox we have no right to ignore the world around us; this world requires our presence and our voice wherever it can be heard, precisely because our message is unique and because the Church is the guardian of a universal Truth. We have no right to restrict our witness to situations where “we” feel comfortable.  Actually, such situations do not really exist. True spiritual “comfort” will come only in the Kingdom of God.”

Here are more extracts:
http://incommunion.org/?p=149
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2010, 06:02:23 PM »

Despite the attempts of ecumenists to re-define ecumenism as missionary work... ecumenism is not missionary work.
Can it not become missonary work?
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2010, 06:11:32 PM »

This is a very old book written by Fr. John Meyendorff, but it is still relevant: 
Witness to the World (New York, St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1987)

Why participate in ecumenical activity?
“The answer to this question is simple: the mission of the Church requires it. As Orthodox we have no right to ignore the world around us; this world requires our presence and our voice wherever it can be heard, precisely because our message is unique and because the Church is the guardian of a universal Truth. We have no right to restrict our witness to situations where “we” feel comfortable.  Actually, such situations do not really exist. True spiritual “comfort” will come only in the Kingdom of God.”

Here are more extracts:
http://incommunion.org/?p=149


This is exactly the kind of nonsense I'm talking about. Equating ecumenical meetings with engaging with the world. Equating Orthodox Christian witness with theological dialogues and joint-statements. It's dishonest. If you want to spread the Orthodox Christian message, then show people what the Church teaches, don't dilute it or compromise it.
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2010, 07:17:20 PM »

This is a very old book written by Fr. John Meyendorff, but it is still relevant: 
Witness to the World (New York, St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1987)

Why participate in ecumenical activity?
“The answer to this question is simple: the mission of the Church requires it. As Orthodox we have no right to ignore the world around us; this world requires our presence and our voice wherever it can be heard, precisely because our message is unique and because the Church is the guardian of a universal Truth. We have no right to restrict our witness to situations where “we” feel comfortable.  Actually, such situations do not really exist. True spiritual “comfort” will come only in the Kingdom of God.”

Here are more extracts:
http://incommunion.org/?p=149


This is exactly the kind of nonsense I'm talking about. Equating ecumenical meetings with engaging with the world. Equating Orthodox Christian witness with theological dialogues and joint-statements. It's dishonest. If you want to spread the Orthodox Christian message, then show people what the Church teaches, don't dilute it or compromise it.
Yes, live the faith, but realize that high rent gets great exposure.  (Ecumenical groups can allow us to witness the Truth to many.) When the Church is unable to witness in such a group,  She must exit/leave.
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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2010, 09:31:55 PM »

This is a very old book written by Fr. John Meyendorff, but it is still relevant: 
Witness to the World (New York, St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1987)

Why participate in ecumenical activity?
“The answer to this question is simple: the mission of the Church requires it. As Orthodox we have no right to ignore the world around us; this world requires our presence and our voice wherever it can be heard, precisely because our message is unique and because the Church is the guardian of a universal Truth. We have no right to restrict our witness to situations where “we” feel comfortable.  Actually, such situations do not really exist. True spiritual “comfort” will come only in the Kingdom of God.”

Here are more extracts:
http://incommunion.org/?p=149


This is exactly the kind of nonsense I'm talking about. Equating ecumenical meetings with engaging with the world. Equating Orthodox Christian witness with theological dialogues and joint-statements. It's dishonest. If you want to spread the Orthodox Christian message, then show people what the Church teaches, don't dilute it or compromise it.

Agree!
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« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2010, 01:01:36 AM »

This is a very old book written by Fr. John Meyendorff, but it is still relevant:  
Witness to the World (New York, St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1987)

Why participate in ecumenical activity?
“The answer to this question is simple: the mission of the Church requires it. As Orthodox we have no right to ignore the world around us; this world requires our presence and our voice wherever it can be heard, precisely because our message is unique and because the Church is the guardian of a universal Truth. We have no right to restrict our witness to situations where “we” feel comfortable.  Actually, such situations do not really exist. True spiritual “comfort” will come only in the Kingdom of God.”

Here are more extracts:
http://incommunion.org/?p=149


This is exactly the kind of nonsense I'm talking about. Equating ecumenical meetings with engaging with the world. Equating Orthodox Christian witness with theological dialogues and joint-statements. It's dishonest. If you want to spread the Orthodox Christian message, then show people what the Church teaches, don't dilute it or compromise it.

Find the message from Papist which he has posted today.  He writes how his contact with the Orthodox on this Forum and his dialogue with us have changed his perceptions.   That is a kind of ecumenical contact at work.
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« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2010, 01:18:20 AM »

The Vatican is the same as Ancient Rome, nothing has changed, its the whore of Babylon from the book of the Revelation Ch 13.

I have to say, that is the first time I've heard an Orthodox say that. I hear this out of the mouths of Protestants (most notably John Hagee).

Well its obvious that the NWO is going to be created through religion.
The Pope John II has already set the trap in motion.
It must be the 'Whore' because they are a heretical church, a very powerful heretical church.
They do 'Sitteth upon many waters' as Revelation says.
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« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2010, 01:21:42 AM »

Quote
Well its obvious that the NWO is going to be created through religion.

The NWO died 10 years ago dude. They started adding too many members, and it lost it's edge and coolness. It was no longer a group of "outsiders," but became an absurdly large, increasingly boring, faction/stable. And once WCW got bought, there was no way that Vince was going to give a fair shot to an idea that someone else came up with, that's just not how he rolls.
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« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2010, 03:01:43 AM »

One Religion, One Economy, One Government.

You mean kind of like One Church, One Holy Book and One Emperor to preside over the whole thing?

If Rome is the whore of Babylon, then what do we make of New Rome?  You're just digging your own grave with this exegetical approach.
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« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2010, 05:36:33 AM »

Ecuminism is the religion of the Anti-Christ. One Religion, One Economy, One Government. Thats what they are aiming at, to destroy the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We must have no communion with heritics: Catholics, Muslims, Buddists, or any of the other religion's created by satanic influence. The Vatican is the same as Ancient Rome, nothing has changed, its the whore of Babylon from the book of the Revelation Ch 13.
The Catholics killed over 50,000,000 during the inquisition's because they did not bow down to the evil Pope, the most horrific torture methods and devices were created then.
And now they are deceiveing everyone by lying tongues and evil deceptions, trying to create a one world religion so that all will bow down to the anti-christ, the pope could be the anti-christ. Its certainly the Whore of Babylon described in the Revelation, meaning the heretical church, the one that was drunken with the blood of the martyr's and the saint's.
That's Procisely what happened during the Papal Inquisitions, people were martyred because they did not worship the 'almighty' pope.

Our Orthodox Faith is being slowly destroyed by this 'Ecumenism', soon they will shut down the monasteries.
Look it up on YouTube There are some very enlightened Elder's that speak on all of this.

And the Pope wants to lie to everyone saying that, 'Oh we must be in union because of love'
But He's a LIAR, and we will not give in to his lies.

Read the Revelation it will tell you about the Whore of Babylon.

The Church Fathers have commentated on Revelation and they say that the Whore of Babylon is ROME.

They are trying to destroy the clean waters of Orthodoxy, they are trying to pollute the Doctrine's handed down by or Holy Father's of the Orthodox Church, which cannot be altered or changed, the 7 Ecumenical Councels have clearly defined all of this.

But very, very sadly, the Greek church is corrupted and on fire from having communion with Heretics, ROCOR too.
Please pray for our Orthodox leaders, everyone, don't let yourselves be deceived. WE CAN HAVE NO COMMUNION WITH HERETICS.
That is why some have made there own church. The Genuine Orthodox Church is a church that RESISTS THE HERESY OF ECUMINISM. Thank God, this is the remnant church!
The Church of the Last Days!

May Christ have mercy on us all in these evil days.


GTBMS, I note that your avatar is the image known as "ark of salvation". May I reproduce the following analysis of this image (it is not suitable for veneration as an icon), posted on this forum some time ago in another thread. Please do take the time to read it:

Quote
No, that icon should not be venerated. It is simply a polemical propaganda piece, promoting a particular ecclesiopolitical ideology. Some food for thought:

Iconography is, above all else, concerned with the revelation of God in Trinity: of the incarnation of the Son and Word of God which has allowed the sanctification of fallen creation (matter), including humanity (made in the image of God)**; of the signs and wonders of the Divine revelation in both the Old and New Testament periods; and, in its portrayal of the saints, their transfiguration from mere men and women into those who have attained deification, a "oneness with God" and full participation of the heavenly life with God and in God, through the conduct of their earthly lives and their steadfast witness to the true faith. They have become true icons and reflections of the Divine. The word godly is most apt to describe them.

(** St John of Damascus sums this up beautifully: "Of old, the incorporeal and uncircumscribed God was not depicted at all. But now that God has appeared in the flesh and lived among men, I make an image of God who can be seen. I do not worship matter, but I worship the Creator of matter, who through matter effected my salvation. I will not cease to venerate the matter through which my salvation has been effected.")

Secondly, in the same way that the saints have obliterated their passions to give themselves completely to God, icons must also reflect this dispassionate quality. Obvious displays of human emotions, even a “positive” one such as laughter, are considered to be manifestations of human passion, and therefore have no place in iconography. Christ’s kingdom is “not of this world” (John 18: 36), therefore the portrayal of saints in their spiritually transformed state must be dispassionate. This also applies to church singing and reading; the singers and readers are there to glorify God and serve the church by their efforts, not to self-aggrandise. Even the display of sorrow in the face of a saint or the Mother of God should be kept subtle, with the emotion conveyed with the eyes, not through histrionics.

Thirdly, there must be complete agreement between scripture, liturgical content (which represents the distillation of the doctrinal, dogmatic and theological position of the Church), and the pictorial content of an icon for any icon to be deemed canonical.

Hence there is no place for ugliness, anger, enmity, and other negative emotions in iconography. The purpose of an icon is to draw us closer to God. Of course, there are specific examples of didactic icons, such as Last Judgement and Ladder of Divine Ascent which feature fearsome dragon-like creatures swallowing unrepentant evildoers. The Resurrection icon shows the personification of sin and death bound in chains in the abyss. It may be said, therefore, if there is room for such portrayals in these canonical icons, then why object to the presence of the figures in the Ark of Salvation image?

I offer this reply:

An icon is a material, tangible expression of the incarnate God. The iconographic portrayal of the saints as icons of Christ, then, should reflect the sanctity, dispassion and boundless compassionate mercy of Christ to those who repent of their sins. Do we not pray to the saints and the Mother of God to intercede on our behalf? Are we not exhorted to pray for our enemies, to love them, and not to hate them? Of all scripture passages on this theme, Matt. 5: 43-48 is perhaps the most useful and succinct:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

We are also assured that God is Love, and that His love and mercy are available to all who seek Him in true faith. There are petitions in various Orthodox litanies which ask for the repentance and return to the true faith of sinners, apostates, and, yes, enemies. One which immediately comes to mind is "Let us pray for those who love us, and those who hate us", a petition in the litany sung towards the end of the Great Compline services of Great Lent where the Canon of St Andrew of Crete is sung.

There is the question of the iconographic portrayal of prophets and saints who denounced kings and princes. Such scenes are found in the smaller panels of a "life" icon of a saint or prophet (an icon which has a large central panel of the saint or prophet, surrounded by a series of smaller panels showing scenes of his or her life). Keeping to the dispassionate nature of icons, these scenes of rebuke of kings and princes (such as in icons of Prophet Elijah, and any number of OT and NT saints and righteous ones) show the saint standing before the errant ruler with a hand raised in rebuke, but nothing more. It is also significant that such scenes, almost without exception, are never used as icons in their own right.

it is not surprising that certain schismatic groups have favoured this so-called Ark of Salvation image as it reflects their particular ideology. This image suggests that those who are not Orthodox are somehow beyond repentance and redemption. Can we really agree with this as Orthodox Christians? The persecuting Pharisee Saul openly boasted of his zeal and success in persecuting Christians, yet, by the grace of God, became one of the Princes of the Apostles, a pillar of Orthodoxy. There are also innumerable converts to the Orthodox faith who have come from every religious background imaginable, including atheism, paganism and communism; many who have become saints, in times of old, and in our present day. The grace of God knows no bounds.

Iconography, as I have said before, must never be used for political or ideological purposes. To portray the non-Orthodox as a whole as being irredeemable and in league with demonic and evil forces to destroy Orthodoxy is a shameful debasement of iconography. I am reminded of a reply to a convert to Orthodoxy as to how he came to the conclusion that the Orthodox faith was the true faith: "The Soviet Union was capable of destroying anything. Yet, despite its immense power and resources, it could not destroy the Orthodox Church. So that was good enough for me." The gates of hell cannot prevail, indeed ...



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« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2010, 11:50:31 AM »

This is a very old book written by Fr. John Meyendorff, but it is still relevant:  
Witness to the World (New York, St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1987)

Why participate in ecumenical activity?
“The answer to this question is simple: the mission of the Church requires it. As Orthodox we have no right to ignore the world around us; this world requires our presence and our voice wherever it can be heard, precisely because our message is unique and because the Church is the guardian of a universal Truth. We have no right to restrict our witness to situations where “we” feel comfortable.  Actually, such situations do not really exist. True spiritual “comfort” will come only in the Kingdom of God.”

Here are more extracts:
http://incommunion.org/?p=149


This is exactly the kind of nonsense I'm talking about. Equating ecumenical meetings with engaging with the world. Equating Orthodox Christian witness with theological dialogues and joint-statements. It's dishonest. If you want to spread the Orthodox Christian message, then show people what the Church teaches, don't dilute it or compromise it.

Find the message from Papist which he has posted today.  He writes how his contact with the Orthodox on this Forum and his dialogue with us have changed his perceptions.   That is a kind of ecumenical contact at work.

This is a forum made up of individuals who discuss their beliefs frankly with one another. You're comparing this forum with academic discussions between representatives where they try to find (or fabricate) "common ground" to make joint statements and negotiate a re-union. On this forum, countless times Orthodox Christians openly say to Roman Catholics, "if you want re-union, abandon your errors and join the Orthodox Church." You will not hear anything so clear at the official dialogues. 

It is dishonest to equate frank discussion of the faith with others with ecumenism.
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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2010, 12:07:34 PM »


It is dishonest to equate frank discussion of the faith with others with ecumenism.


So now I am accused of dishonesty by iconodule!   Oh my!

I want to present a few official examples which show the consistency and
ultra-conservatism of the official Orthodox viewpoint throughout the years of
ecumenism... the unbending and inflexible insistence that Orthodoxy alone
constitutes the One Church. The Orthodox have not strayed from their own
reality and have not failed to present the authentic Orthodox point of view at
ecumenical meetings and in official statements.



1. 1957.... The Statement of the Representatives of the Greek Orthodox
Church in the USA at the North American Faith and Order Study
Conference, Oberlin, Ohio, September 1957. This is quite unequivocal
about the uniqueness of Orthodoxy as the Church.

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/ecumenical/gocamerica_faith_order_sept_1957.htm



2. 1980s.... The contretemps in the 1980s at the International Roman
Catholic-Orthodox Theological Dialogue which saw a walk-out of the
Catholic participants when the Orthodox delegates declared that they
were unable to accept Catholic baptism per se. These were not fringy
palaeohiemerologhites but the most ecumenically minded bishops and
theologians of the canonical Orthodox Churches. This question has
never been revisited in the international dialogue but one day it will
need to be faced head on.


3. 1986.... Report of the Third Panorthodox Preconciliar (WCC)
Conference, Chambesy, 1986:

"The Orthodox Church, however, faithful to her ecclesiology, to the
identity of her internal structure and to the teaching of the
undivided Church, while participating in the WCC, does not accept the
idea of the "equality of confessions" and cannot consider Church
unity as an inter-confessional adjustment. In this spirit, the unity
which is sought within the WCC cannot simply be the product of
theological agreements alone. God calls every Christian to the unity
of faith which is lived in the sacraments and the tradition, as
experienced in the Orthodox Church."

Report of the Third Panorthodox Preconciliar Conference, Chambesy,
1986

Section III, Paragraph 6
http://www.incommunion.org/articles/ecumenical-movement/chambesy-1986


4. 1997..... Even the most ecumenical Patriarch of Micklegarth His
Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew scandalised the Catholics with his
presentation at the Jesuit University of Georgetown in 1997 when he
declared:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."

Full text at
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html


The Jesuits declared morosely that Patr. Bartholomew had set the
dialogue back 10 years.  Nobody else made a comment since they did
not have a clue what the Patriarch was talking about.   Smiley


5. 2000..... The important Statement on Orthodoxy and its ecumenical
relationships with non-Orthodox Churches issued by the 2000
Millennial Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church:

"Basic Principles of the Attitude of the Russian Orthodox Church Toward the
Other Christian Confessions"

It basically repeats what the Greeks said at Oberlin Ohio in 1957
and even more emphatically - the boundaries of the Church are
the Orthodox Church herself.

http://www.mospat.ru/en/documents/attitude-to-the-non-orthodox/
and
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/ecumenical/roc_other_christian_confessions.htm



6. 2007..... The Agreed Statement ussued by the Catholic-Orthodox
International Theological Meeting in Ravenna, Sept 2007

"Note [1] Orthodox participants felt it important to emphasize that
the use of the terms "the Church", "the universal Church", "the
indivisible Church" and "the Body of Christ" in this document and in
similar documents produced by the Joint Commission in no way
undermines the self-understanding of the Orthodox Church as the one,
holy, catholic and apostolic Church, of which the Nicene Creed
speaks."

http://www.orthodoxeurope.org/page/14/130.aspx#2


Fr Ambrose
Russian Orthodox Church (Abroad)

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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2010, 02:41:26 PM »

Irish Hermit- First of all, I apologize for my unfair statement "It is dishonest..." and I do retract it.

The examples you give are worth looking at, but I believe they are rendered ambiguous, or even nullified, by the numerous other well-known statements which have emerged from ecumenical talks, which recognized the RCC as part of the Church or as a "Sister Church," which recognize Catholic and Orthodox baptism as the same, etc. I don't have the time to pull out a bunch of quotes but I'm sure you and others are already familiar with them. The Balamand Agreement is one of the most egregious of these statements. Looking at these statements, which have not been publicly criticized or retracted in other ecumenical events, it's pretty clear that the Orthodox representatives have indeed "strayed from their own reality."
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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2010, 03:22:40 PM »

Irish Hermit- First of all, I apologize for my unfair statement "It is dishonest..." and I do retract it.

The examples you give are worth looking at, but I believe they are rendered ambiguous, or even nullified, by the numerous other well-known statements which have emerged from ecumenical talks, which recognized the RCC as part of the Church or as a "Sister Church," which recognize Catholic and Orthodox baptism as the same, etc. I don't have the time to pull out a bunch of quotes but I'm sure you and others are already familiar with them.The Balamand Agreement is one of the most egregious of these statements. Looking at these statements, which have not been publicly criticized or retracted in other ecumenical events, it's pretty clear that the Orthodox representatives have indeed "strayed from their own reality."

Icondule,

re: "The Balamand Agreement is one of the most egregious of these statements."

Will you tell which which Orthodox Churches ratified Balamand?

Are you aware that, for example, the representative of the Russian Orthodox Church at the Balamand meeting was simply one monk, Father Nestor (Zhilyaev) ?    Do you seriously think he had authority to sign the Balamand Agreement and bind the Patriarch and 180 bishops of the Russian Orthodox Synod?   laugh

Also do you know that it was a minority of Orthodox Churches at Balamand?  Eight Churches if I remember correctly.  The majority of the Orthodox Churches were simply not there. 



Today (23 January) is the commemoration of St. Colman of Lismore
See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints

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