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Author Topic: "Inclusive orthodox" mess! what can we do?  (Read 2268 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 05, 2003, 02:49:46 AM »

Vagant factions continue to lie and cheat the people through Internet and other medias, genrerating confussion and difficulties for the Orthodox Churches.

This is a blend of liturgies, there's a "Rite of the Americas", a Byzantine liturgy, a "Bishop" dressing like Albanian Bishop, other wear Roman miters, [unverifiable claim removed]. I believe it is necessary to create a real Orthodox site in the net to fight these groups. Any suggestoon?


http://www.inclusiveorthodox.org/espanfront.html
« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 10:59:21 PM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2003, 04:31:14 AM »

Snoopy,
Try this out for a "vagante" listing:

http://a_g_green_jr.tripod.com/OtherOrthodox.html

Demetri
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2003, 08:37:44 AM »

Snoopy,
Try this out for a "vagante" listing:

http://a_g_green_jr.tripod.com/OtherOrthodox.html

Unfortunately, Al Green's behavior in the newsgroups doesn't exactly  serve as an endorsement.....
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2003, 10:13:23 AM »

Unfortunately, Al Green's behavior in the newsgroups doesn't exactly  serve as an endorsement.....


Really, Keble?
I've only known him personally and never crossed verbal swords with him on a list. Perhaps his convert's zeal has been mis-read? Can you PM me about this?

I still think his vagante listing is valuable, disturbing, and symptomatic of the multi-jurisdictional morass of America.

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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2003, 10:16:26 AM »

Unfortunately, Keble has not misread Al's posts.  I've known him from several lists and he often offends even Orthodox, much less those that aren't.  I got to where I wouldn't read his posts.
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2003, 10:27:54 AM »

Who is Al Green, and where can we read some of his posts so that we can judge for ourselves?

This is not the famous Al Green, is it? The former singer of Soul Music?
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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2003, 10:49:34 AM »

Who is Al Green, and where can we read some of his posts so that we can judge for ourselves?

This is not the famous Al Green, is it? The former singer of Soul Music?

No, Linus7, Al's a technical writer up here in PA. Apparently my friend has violated some list protocol or sensitivities. This hasn't been my experience with him, but....I don't frequent other lists much.
His site,  http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink.html , is a valuable resource for me, a good portal. I've yet to find it in error, but I am open to being corrected. Smiley

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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2003, 11:17:50 AM »

Linus,

Join YahooGroups Orthodox-Forum and see for yourself.  He has been there since the beginning.  He is also all over usenet: groups.google.com and search for alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox

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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2003, 11:18:24 AM »

Al is also a deposed OCA deacon btw (public knowledge) which might account for some of his anger.

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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2003, 11:18:46 AM »

I'm not saying that there's no value in Al Green's list (even if it is a bit cranky in its format and commits the cardinal NetSin of using the <blink> attribute). There's a similar list of "not in communion" Anglican groups which is maintained by a group which is liberal but reliable. The last is really the point: the Society of Archbishop Justus has no conservative commitments but aims to be above reproach and deliberately avoids a controversialist appearance. AL Green most certainly does not.

One can find Al Green's posts in Google, except for the fact that he keeps changing his "name", presumably to prevent people from reliably killfiling him. He tends to post in bursts of several weeks, often crossposting into the Episcopal group.

Part of the problem, as well, is that it is very easy to to tell who is in the Anglican communion and who is not. It's not so easy with Orthodoxy, as evidenced by this page from the OCA site. ROCOR is conspicuous by its absence, for example. Lots of people are clearly vagante, but there is a wide grey area between them and the primary autocephalous churches.

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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2003, 11:19:37 AM »

http://ind-movement.org is another catalogue of these groups.  It is hilarious!!!

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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2003, 12:19:00 PM »

Note particularly the picture of the Epsicopal bishops with the clown noses-- The fellow in the middle with the white hair is Edmund Browning, who was presiding bishop at the time. (I forget why they were doing this silly thing-- I don't think it was part of an actual liturgy.)
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2003, 12:35:28 PM »

The list mentioned earlier is interesting, and sometimes very useful, in that it provides many links in one place. However, Al Green has an openly neo-papal-patriarchal ecclesiology (ie. "you must be in communion with patriarchate X to be Orthodox" *), and is therefore definately not someone who should be considered a source for saying who and who is not Orthodox.

Justin

* Not that this hasn't been the case in the past, as for example when Saint Emperor Theodosius said that one had to be in communion with certain Patriarchs to be considered part of the Church. This is the extremely rare exception, however, and not the rule. Green would not only make it into a rule, but he would also lay it as a foundation stone in his ecclesiological framework.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2003, 12:40:38 PM by Paradosis » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2003, 12:57:48 PM »

Paradosis, how do you avoid the "in communion with X" test and not thus invent the branch theory of ecclesiology?
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2003, 01:07:01 PM »

OK, I take it back. Here's the explanation. I believe that the picture was taken just before the Peace-- presumably they took them off before the offertory. I do notice that the candidate somehow manages to maintain his Epsicopal dignity.

Perhaps this is taking the "fools for Christ" thing a bit too far....
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2003, 02:33:00 PM »

Keble

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Paradosis, how do you avoid the "in communion with X" test and not thus invent the branch theory of ecclesiology?

The unifying "glue" in Orthodox is the Truth incarnate, Christ. I know that everyone says that they have their "unity in Christ," but what I speak of is somewhere between the neo-papal patriarchalism that some in world Orthodoxy now hold to, and the invisible Church ecclesiology that some (most?)Protestants hold to. There are a number of criteria which one can use in investigating whether a group is Orthodox. Do they have valid apostolic succession? Were they obeying the canons of the Church when the group was formed, and do they still follow the canons? Does the group have a real, Orthodox flock (ie. not just some bishop who claims to have a church but has no one to shepherd)? Is the group faithful to Orthodox teachings, and do they practice their faith? Do they have love that seeks true unity, or are they lacking in love (some show a lack in love by ignoring false beliefs that should not be ignored, while others show a lack in love by having a sectarian and usually elitist spirit -- though I'm sure many outside of Orthodoxy would say that we Orthodox in general have an elitist spirit). And there are some other signs of a true Orthodox Church. All these are only general guidelines, however. Most of them (if not all) have exceptions. Just as an example, the "valid apostolic succession" part can sometimes be missing, but a person still be Orthodox, as happened in the case of Meletios of Antioch (though the Alexandrians and the Romans admittedly never recognized him as being legit, Saints Basil, Gregory, and most of the east did recognize Meletios when he affirmed the Orthodox faith, even if he had been put into "office" by Arians).

So how do we know when the exceptions happen? Again, it all goes back to the Truth: those who have the truth/faith as handed down by Christ through the Apostles are in the Church. So, being in communion with this or that group does not make you Orthodox, but contrarily, being Orthodox makes you seek out communion with other Orthodox groups. Being in communion with a group, or even a group of groups (e.g., SCOBA, "world Orthodoxy," etc.) does not make you Orthodox, being in Christ's Jurisdiction makes you Orthodox. Now, if you claim to be Orthodox and you still keep your distance from people, more attention is needed. Why do they keep their distance? Is it out of caution over a dogmatic matter, or just because they have a sectarion spirit? Do they have love, or are they just playing ecclesiastical politics? If it is found that they have the orthodox faith, and that they have have He Who is Truth, and He Who is Love, and this Truth and Love is manifested in them, then it is absurd to say "well they aren't in communion with this group and that group which I think is Orthodox: therefore they can't be Orthodox". Ecclesiology is not so cut and dry as that, and there are lots of examples in history of patriarchates--and even saints--arguing amongst themselves as to the validity of other groups, or the orthodoxy of the other groups. Contemporary Orthodoxy has been little but such muddy waters, as different groups grasp at an autocephalous, or at least autonomous, status.
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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2003, 03:25:34 AM »

This "Inclusive Orthodox Church" is far ahead from being Uncanonical. It's a sect based in Hawaii created in 1994, [unverifiable claim removed], "western rites", and many strange things that d-+just cause confussion among the faithful.

In the State of Veracruz this sect has parishes that masquerate as Orthodox, and some of their ministers have appeared in Ecumenical acts and Tv shows as representatives of the Orthodox Church!
« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 11:00:10 PM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged
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