Author Topic: In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!  (Read 2739 times)

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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!
« on: July 19, 2008, 10:14:25 AM »
I am sure that the issue of tongues has been discussed before, but I have been reading a book found here:http://www.amazon.com/Peace-Let-Pray-Lord-Interpretation/dp/1928653065/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216476433&sr=1-1
I was wondering, is the gift of tongues seen as the prayer of the heart, as the author of this book argues, or is there not such a consensus on this issue? Is this just one possible interpretation, or THE Orthodox interpretation? God Bless You All!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2008, 03:48:18 PM »
I am sure that the issue of tongues has been discussed before, but I have been reading a book found here:http://www.amazon.com/Peace-Let-Pray-Lord-Interpretation/dp/1928653065/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216476433&sr=1-1
I was wondering, is the gift of tongues seen as the prayer of the heart, as the author of this book argues, or is there not such a consensus on this issue? Is this just one possible interpretation, or THE Orthodox interpretation? God Bless You All!
Is this interpretation found in the teachings of the Fathers?  According to the first review listed for this book (just scroll down on the same page to which you linked the OP), the author appears to have based his ideas more on the modern theologian Fr. John Romanides than on any Patristic statements.
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2008, 03:57:57 PM »
Is this interpretation found in the teachings of the Fathers?  According to the first review listed for this book (just scroll down on the same page to which you linked the OP), the author appears to have based his ideas more on the modern theologian Fr. John Romanides than on any Patristic statements.
I am not sure, hence the question. The reviews are mixed on amazon regarding the book, and the interpretation it portrays of tongues. Anyone know if this is legitimate Orthodox teaching on the subject? I mean, I bought it from my parish bookstore, so I don't really know what to think, to be honest.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2008, 04:19:01 PM »
I am not sure, hence the question. The reviews are mixed on amazon regarding the book, and the interpretation it portrays of tongues. Anyone know if this is legitimate Orthodox teaching on the subject? I mean, I bought it from my parish bookstore, so I don't really know what to think, to be honest.
Well, the first review devotes itself to addressing the book in great detail and to contrasting the ideas found in the book against the reviewer's understanding of the Fathers on the issue of glossolalia and prayer, whereas the second review makes a very short, (overly?) generalized recommendation of the book.  I'm not necessarily suggesting that the first review is a true Orthodox point of view, but I would at least recommend that you read it and draw from it an idea of how to seek the answers you desire.  We can share with you our opinions and experiences, along with a smattering of Patristic quotes, which is all well and good, but I don't advise you to rely on us Webodox Christians alone if you REALLY want to know if Fr. Alexis Trader's point of view on tongues is Orthodox. ;)  Why not go to the Fathers first?
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2008, 10:25:14 PM »
Well, the first review devotes itself to addressing the book in great detail and to contrasting the ideas found in the book against the reviewer's understanding of the Fathers on the issue of glossolalia and prayer, whereas the second review makes a very short, (overly?) generalized recommendation of the book.  I'm not necessarily suggesting that the first review is a true Orthodox point of view, but I would at least recommend that you read it and draw from it an idea of how to seek the answers you desire.  We can share with you our opinions and experiences, along with a smattering of Patristic quotes, which is all well and good, but I don't advise you to rely on us Webodox Christians alone if you REALLY want to know if Fr. Alexis Trader's point of view on tongues is Orthodox. ;)  Why not go to the Fathers first?
I want you to know this from the beginning PeterTheAleut, that I mean absolutely no disrespect with what I am about to say. I appreciate your communication thus far. Are you suggesting that there is nothing but opinions on this issue based on one's personal interpretation of Patristics? I have been know to be dense, but this sounds like what you are saying. I know that a lot of things within Orthodoxy are not as cut-and-dry as some would wish, so if this  is one of those cases, so be it. I guess I really want to know if Fr. Trader is just one possible Orthodox interpretation of tongues, or the only one. Thanks and God Bless!

Offline pensateomnia

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Re: In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2008, 10:46:30 PM »
I haven't read this book, but I have met Fr. Alexis.

In so far as Fr. Alexis is a canonically ordained Orthodox Christian priest, an Athonite monk of many years experience, a graduate of an Orthodox theological seminary and a former lecturer in Patristics, I would be far more inclined to take his word over that of an online pundit on Amazon.com, whose identity, legitimacy and, most importantly, connection to the Orthodox Church is completely unknown.

Just a thought.
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Offline LBK

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Re: In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2008, 10:59:16 PM »
Bear this in mind, PoorFoolNicholas, when assessing the book you referred to.

There are two forms of "speaking in tongues": The Corinthian form, which is utterances in a form unlike any known language (some would call it "meaningless babble"); and the "speaking in tongues" of the events at Pentecost, where the disciples were given the gift of speaking in other known (this point is very, very important) languages by the Holy Spirit to enable them to then "go forth, therefore, and preach the Gospels to all nations".

The former sort is given absolute importance in many "Pentecostal" sects, but is generally seen among the Orthodox as of minor significance, particularly, as Apostle Paul says (to paraphrase): What's the point of prophesying in tongues if it cannot be interpreted? If such prophecy cannot be interpreted, then it is meaningless babble."

The latter sort gives us the authority and responsibility to preach the Gospel, and to conduct liturgical services, and to translate scripture and other writings into the local language(s) used wherever Orthodoxy wishes to take root, or where it has already done so. The irony is that the "Pentecostals" use the Corinthian, not the true Pentecostal, phenomenon, as their standard.

The Greek word for tongue  (glossa) (as in the muscular structure in our mouths), is the same as the Greek word for language. This has, unfortunately, led to much confusion over the centuries on the part of many western protestants, compounded by their lack of distinction between "speaking in different languages" and "speaking in an unintelligible language foreign to humanity".
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 11:00:57 PM by LBK »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2008, 11:03:54 PM »
I haven't read this book, but I have met Fr. Alexis.

In so far as Fr. Alexis is a canonically ordained Orthodox Christian priest, an Athonite monk of many years experience, a graduate of an Orthodox theological seminary and a former lecturer in Patristics, I would be far more inclined to take his word over that of an online pundit on Amazon.com, whose identity, legitimacy and, most importantly, connection to the Orthodox Church is completely unknown.

Just a thought.
True, but I'm not necessarily exalting the review as representative of an Orthodox viewpoint (as I stated earlier in Reply #3).  I just hope that by reading the review, one might get an idea for where to look for answers.  We may not know the reviewer to be able to gauge his authority to speak, but we can at least cross-reference his Patristic references to see what some of the Fathers had to say on glossolalia.  This is the suggestion I draw from the review, that we look to the Holy Fathers to determine how Orthodox Fr. Alexis's ideas are rather than trust in the word of some online pundits.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 11:06:43 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2008, 11:44:44 PM »
I haven't read this book, but I have met Fr. Alexis.

In so far as Fr. Alexis is a canonically ordained Orthodox Christian priest, an Athonite monk of many years experience, a graduate of an Orthodox theological seminary and a former lecturer in Patristics, I would be far more inclined to take his word over that of an online pundit on Amazon.com, whose identity, legitimacy and, most importantly, connection to the Orthodox Church is completely unknown.

Just a thought.
I didn't mean to suggest that I had doubts about Fr. Trader. He is a holy, pious man. I am not really concerned with what amazon reviewers have said, I own the book myself. I was just curious if this is the most accepted interpretation of tongues within Orthodoxy.

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2008, 11:52:51 PM »
Bear this in mind, PoorFoolNicholas, when assessing the book you referred to.

There are two forms of "speaking in tongues": The Corinthian form, which is utterances in a form unlike any known language (some would call it "meaningless babble"); and the "speaking in tongues" of the events at Pentecost, where the disciples were given the gift of speaking in other known (this point is very, very important) languages by the Holy Spirit to enable them to then "go forth, therefore, and preach the Gospels to all nations".

The former sort is given absolute importance in many "Pentecostal" sects, but is generally seen among the Orthodox as of minor significance, particularly, as Apostle Paul says (to paraphrase): What's the point of prophesying in tongues if it cannot be interpreted? If such prophecy cannot be interpreted, then it is meaningless babble."

The latter sort gives us the authority and responsibility to preach the Gospel, and to conduct liturgical services, and to translate scripture and other writings into the local language(s) used wherever Orthodoxy wishes to take root, or where it has already done so. The irony is that the "Pentecostals" use the Corinthian, not the true Pentecostal, phenomenon, as their standard.

The Greek word for tongue  (glossa) (as in the muscular structure in our mouths), is the same as the Greek word for language. This has, unfortunately, led to much confusion over the centuries on the part of many western protestants, compounded by their lack of distinction between "speaking in different languages" and "speaking in an unintelligible language foreign to humanity".

The point that Fr. Trader makes in the book is that the understandability (is that even a word ???) of all those present at Pentecost of the Apostles message was a special miracle not necessarily related to the gift of tongues. He argues that the gift of tongues is the prayer of the heart, not an audible phenomenon, but something that takes place within the heart of each individual in-dwelled by the Spirit of God. So, in this interpretation, the debate on whether tongues is understandable language or not, is a hollow, unfruitful venture without any bearing on the subject. Because it is an interior phenomenon, not a audible phenomenon. Thoughts/feed-back?

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2008, 10:56:04 AM »
Anyone?

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord!
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2008, 12:29:18 PM »
The point that Fr. Trader makes in the book is that the understandability (is that even a word ???) of all those present at Pentecost of the Apostles message was a special miracle not necessarily related to the gift of tongues. He argues that the gift of tongues is the prayer of the heart, not an audible phenomenon, but something that takes place within the heart of each individual in-dwelled by the Spirit of God. So, in this interpretation, the debate on whether tongues is understandable language or not, is a hollow, unfruitful venture without any bearing on the subject. Because it is an interior phenomenon, not a audible phenomenon. Thoughts/feed-back?
I heard that when I was in the Pentecostal church, but I have not heard one way or the other from Orthodox about these "languages of the heart." I'm sorry I can't help you, but I can't be sure that what the Pentecostals taught is true. Some things they get right, and others they don't, and until I hear an Orthodox opinion, on things like this I don't really know which is which. Perhaps we have someone here who knows, or at least has an educated guess?
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