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Author Topic: Speaking of Hal Lindsey  (Read 1091 times) Average Rating: 0
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Seraphim Reeves
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« on: August 01, 2003, 01:05:40 PM »

Speaking of Hal Lindsey, I just saw this add for a book he's put out on the subject of "Jihad", and Islam in general.  Reading the pitch for the book, I had some thoughts.

https://web7.webrelation.com/ssl/oracle/index.asp?Product=Book&Item=452#452

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On Sept. 11th an ancient fight-to-the-death conflict exploded on the shores of the U.S. Though most Americans didn't realize it, we were already involved in this struggle. A struggle driven by a hatred that goes back over 4000 years.

I can only assume he's talking about Arabs as descendents of Ishmael (enmity between Ishmael and Isaac.)

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In the aftermath of 9/11 most Americans are asking:

- Why do most Muslims hate Jews?

This is an odd question, since historically the Jews and Muslims had a much less rocky relationship than Jews and Christians have.  Generally they faired much better in Muslim lands than Christians ever did, and arguably did better under Muslims than they did under Christian rule.  The wide spread contempt for Jews in the Islamic world begins precisely when the occupation of Palestine begins.

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- Why do Islamic fundamentalists hate the United States and call it "The Great Satan?"

If I were a jingoistic moron, I'd say "because they hate freedom". (gag)  The reality is two fold.  On one hand, they are offended by America's duplicity (as many other nations are) - speaking much about wholesome American values and freedom, while supporting brutal regimes all over the world (including the Middle East itself.)  Whether it be Saddam, the Shaw, or the crooks in the House of Saud, they all are/were America's "friends."  The other side of the issue is less political than moral/religious - frankly, the Muslims, for all of their faults, still have a something of a horror of sin, and a sense of shame.  They're horrified at the west's Mc-culture, and even more so by Brittany Spear's girating midsection and our incredible immodesty.  They still fear for their children, and what will become of their civilization if they were to be overwhelmed by such things.

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- Why did Islamic terrorists sacrifice their own lives to kill Americans?

I really don't believe that is what happened on September 11th, but if one is interested in the real phenomenon of "martyrdom missions", one has only the 20th century to deal with, since it is something of an anomaly even in Islam....though one could argue it's not too much of a stretch, since Islam has always glorified death in battle (which is considered martyredom - shahid is the term I think) for the "cause of Allah", and this confidence in their salvation did lead many Jihadis throughout history to fight battles which I guess could have been seen as "suicidal"...but not in the direct way we now see "suicide missions."

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- Do Islamic fundamentalists have access to weapons of mass destruction?

If they do, I'm at a loss to explain why they've as of yet not used them.

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- Does the Koran call for violence and conquest?

Yes, and it's shameless the way Islam's westernized apologists argue otherwise.  They know full well their "Islam is peace" line is not true, they simple cannot be speaking in ignorance on the matter;  frankly, they're lying.

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- Are the Islamic fundamentalists an aberration of the Muslim religion, or are they - as they claim - the "True followers of Mohammad?"

Well, Wahabbism is arguably an aberration...in the same way the various Protestantisms are to Christianity.  But they certainly are cluing into a line of thought which does exist in the Koran and hadith... a very dark, puritanical, joyless line of thought, but it is there.

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Islamic fundamentalism's purpose is to replace the Judeo-Christian world order with an Islamic world order. Every American needs to understand the enormity of the threat we face -- and why.

I cannot stand it when people speak of a "Judeo-Christian" anything.  Such a thing does not exist.  The values, and spiritual vision for the world in Judaism is only similar to the Christian one in so far as all religions are somehow similar.  Whether it be the particulars of morality and ethics, anthropology, or eschatology, the two are different enough (at least as Judaism has developed on it's own ) to make the slogan "Judeo-Christian" mean about as much as "Buddhist-Christian" or "Islamic-Christian".   Sadly, what the fundies don't realize, is that their so called "Christian world order" is in fact nothing but a set of falsehoods serving a very real (and dreamt of) Judeo world order.

This is nothing new, since even the Apostles for a time laboured under this delusion while they followed after our Lord.  They argued amongst themselves as to who would be "the greatest", since they still yearned for the Moschiach who would subjegate the goyim (by force of arms), and establish physical Jerusalem as the centre of the world (kind of like what Mecca is for Muslims), and the Jews (the priestly people) as their masters.  They relished over passages like where the Israelites left Egypt with armloads of riches, and like Jews until now, simply didn't see the New Moses, the new Exodus (coming of the Messiah) as being anything better than this (a difference of quantity maybe, but not quality or kind.)  With this in mind, it's easy to see how scandalized they were when the Lord said He was going to Jerusalem to die; precisely why Christ and His Cross are a scandal to the Jews to this day.

Oddly enough, this is one area where the Jews have a lot in common with the Muslims (for the obvious reason that Islam itself is actually incredibly Judaic in all of the "bad ways", and was probably heavily influenced by direct rabbinical involvement during Muhammed's formative years); both are terribly scandalized by the Cross.  The Jews have historically accepted that it happen, but see it as evidence that Christ was a liar and a sorcerer, who deserved to die...certainly not the "Moschiach".  The Muslims on the other hand, believe Jesus was "Messiah" and a "Prophet", but at the price of rejecting He was ever crucified.  Both thinking as they do, for fundamentally the same reason.

Seraphim
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Keble
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2003, 02:15:50 PM »

Quote
- Why do Islamic fundamentalists hate the United States and call it "The Great Satan?"

If I were a jingoistic moron, I'd say "because they hate freedom". (gag)  The reality is two fold.  On one hand, they are offended by America's duplicity (as many other nations are) - speaking much about wholesome American values and freedom, while supporting brutal regimes all over the world (including the Middle East itself.)  Whether it be Saddam, the Shaw, or the crooks in the House of Saud, they all are/were America's "friends."  The other side of the issue is less political than moral/religious - frankly, the Muslims, for all of their faults, still have a something of a horror of sin, and a sense of shame.  They're horrified at the west's Mc-culture, and even more so by Brittany Spear's girating midsection and our incredible immodesty.  They still fear for their children, and what will become of their civilization if they were to be overwhelmed by such things.

Well, it isn't "their" civilization to begin with. Much of the Arab world suffers under a bad case of "lost glories", but in the case of Islam there is the very real problem that the fallen Islamic empire didn't look like what Wahabbi terrorists fantasize about.

Indeed, one cannot understand these terrorist attacks without realizing that this is nothing like Clauswitzian war. It makes a certain pretense at it, but the contrast between the American attitude of "mak[ing] the other b*st*rd die for his country" and flying planes into buildings should show the difference.

These attacks are, in essence, religious acts, not political acts. They are acts of self-justification through (in this case) harming the enemy. But they don't have a strategic purpose. That is, they have may have an aim (getting the USA out of the Middle East) but there is no strategy behind them. The irony is that, as tactics, they force the USA into more intervention. In that respect they were stupid acts.

And also, as far as the populace is concerned, they "hate" the USA because it is safe to hate us, but not safe to hate their own true masters.

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I cannot stand it when people speak of a "Judeo-Christian" anything.  Such a thing does not exist.  The values, and spiritual vision for the world in Judaism is only similar to the Christian one in so far as all religions are somehow similar.  Whether it be the particulars of morality and ethics, anthropology, or eschatology, the two are different enough (at least as Judaism has developed on it's own ) to make the slogan "Judeo-Christian" mean about as much as "Buddhist-Christian" or "Islamic-Christian".   Sadly, what the fundies don't realize, is that their so called "Christian world order" is in fact nothing but a set of falsehoods serving a very real (and dreamt of) Judeo world order.

Oh, baloney.

Yes, there is what Lewis called the "Tao" of universal principles-- though the Wahabbis certain do not assent to it! But now you are confounding many different things. In the USA being Jewish is first of all an ethnic matter. Secular Jews participate in the general secularism just as the other native secularists do; they contribute their own color to it, but they hardly direct it, and they are certainly isolated in important respects from religious Judaism, which indeed they often live in reaction to.

Secularism is a common threat to all religion, at least where there is some semblance of prosperity. But among religions there is a kinship between Judaism and Christianity which no other religions share. However, it is important to see that it has a direction. Christianity can (and indeed must) look to Judaism as a progenitor. Judaism cannot acknowledge Christianity as its annointed successor without ceasing to be Judaism, of course; nonetheless; this is still a relationship it shares with no other faith.

Islam tries to borrow both its neighbors, but it does so failingly. One can see this in the Koran itself in its contradictory attitudes and its inability to get the Christian story straight.It cannot accurately claim the sort of relationship Christianity has to Judaism.
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Linus7
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2003, 04:51:31 PM »

Whenever I hear Hal Lindsey's name I get a feeling of nostalgia. Reading his bestseller, The Late Great Planet Earth, was a pivotal experience for me as a 15 year old. The expectation of witnessing the denouement of world history, coupled with the prospect of being whisked off the earth and into heaven, having cheated the Grim Reaper, really fired my faith and that of my Christian friends.

I can remember all of us going up to the big First Baptist Church on Ironwood Drive in San Jose, California, - the church with the gigantic globe on its roof - to see the then-current Evangelical hit, Thief in the Night. Man, those were days heady with excitement! The Rapture could happen at any time!

It was all great fun.

But (even as a teenager and Evangelical) continued Bible study soon burst the Rapture bubble for me. It's just not there.

Anyway, it's interesting to see that ol' Hal is still cranking out the hits.

He's the Mick Jagger of prophecy pundits and not just because he's been around a long time.

There's also the fact that after you've read one of his books you find yourself humming I Can't Get No Satisfaction.



« Last Edit: August 01, 2003, 05:06:31 PM by Linus7 » Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
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