Author Topic: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)  (Read 13037 times)

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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2008, 09:30:57 PM »
The Anglican Communion is what they call themselves, they are in Communion with each other, and that is what you will call them on this forum- for the same reason that we do not allow people to refer to Roman Catholics as "Papists" on this forum or Eastern and Oriental Rite Catholics as "Uniates".

^^ <deafening applause>
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2008, 09:46:32 PM »
The Anglican Communion is what they call themselves, they are in Communion with each other, and that is what you will call them on this forum- for the same reason that we do not allow people to refer to Roman Catholics as "Papists" on this forum or Eastern and Oriental Rite Catholics as "Uniates".

Anglo-Catholic, Episcopalian, Continuum, etc. what they call themselves is not as unified as as you would seem to indicate.  Communion is appropriate inasmuch as the Anglicans/Episcopalians I've known who are Orthodox in everything but name, I cannot allow to communion/commune with as they commune, officially at least, with those who are neo-pagan if not atheist.  Their open communion closes our communion to them.
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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2008, 10:39:37 PM »
Anglo-Catholic, Episcopalian, Continuum, etc. what they call themselves is not as unified as as you would seem to indicate.  Communion is appropriate inasmuch as the Anglicans/Episcopalians I've known who are Orthodox in everything but name, I cannot allow to communion/commune with as they commune, officially at least, with those who are neo-pagan if not atheist.  Their open communion closes our communion to them.

??? So?
The term "The Anglican Communion" refers to the Anglican/Episcopalian Churches throughout the world which are in Communion with each other through the four "Instruments of Communion" (the Archbishops of Canterbury, The Lambeth Conference, Primates Meetings and the Anglican Consultative Council ). It has nothing to do with being in Communion with us, the Lutherans or the Hare Krishnas.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 10:40:09 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Ebor

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2008, 10:41:02 PM »
The Anglican Communion is what they call themselves, they are in Communion with each other, and that is what you will call them on this forum- for the same reason that we do not allow people to refer to Roman Catholics as "Papists" on this forum or Eastern and Oriental Rite Catholics as "Uniates".

Thank you.  :)

Ebor
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Offline buzuxi

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2008, 01:11:46 AM »
buzuxi and Peter, there are clear and serious constitutional problems with either the Archbishop of Canterbury or the heir to the British throne embracing Orthodoxy; the small matter of the Church of England being the established faith of the British Crown and State, and the reigning monarch being the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. (Blame Henry VIII for this, folks.)

Given a choice between Dr Rowan Williams or Prince Charles converting, I'd bet Charlie would get there first, even if he had to give up the right to the throne to do so (parallels with his great-uncle Edward VIII). I am no apologist for the British royal family, but at least Charles did have a modicum of Orthodoxy in his upbringing through his paternal Russian Orthodox grandmother, whom he was very close to, and, less directly, through his father, Prince Philip.


You are correct, but of course as a clergy member the bishop of Canterbury should go beyond politics and put his soul first. He knows full well that his confession is false. He knows that Orthodoxy is the way but refuses to accept it. He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things".  The Anglicans had extensive talks with the Orthodox in the 1920's and orthodox recognition of their orders by Metaxakis was something they considered to validate them more than their own witness.   As far as im concerned he is an agent of anti-christ for not steering his flock towards Orthodoxy when he knows its more beneficial for their souls than where they presently are..

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2008, 01:52:15 AM »

 He knows full well that his confession is false. He knows that Orthodoxy is the way but refuses to accept it. He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things".  The Anglicans had extensive talks with the Orthodox in the 1920's and orthodox recognition of their orders by Metaxakis was something they considered to validate them more than their own witness.   As far as im concerned he is an agent of anti-christ for not steering his flock towards Orthodoxy when he knows its more beneficial for their souls than where they presently are...

 ???
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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2008, 02:01:25 AM »

He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things". 

That's a book I'd like to see ....
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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2008, 08:50:10 AM »

You are correct, but of course as a clergy member the bishop of Canterbury should go beyond politics and put his soul first. He knows full well that his confession is false. He knows that Orthodoxy is the way but refuses to accept it. He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things".  The Anglicans had extensive talks with the Orthodox in the 1920's and orthodox recognition of their orders by Metaxakis was something they considered to validate them more than their own witness.   As far as im concerned he is an agent of anti-christ for not steering his flock towards Orthodoxy when he knows its more beneficial for their souls than where they presently are..
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Offline prodromas

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2008, 09:11:28 AM »
So, will it be your face I see on the throne when I am judged at the end of all things?

No it will be GIC :D
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Offline Ebor

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2008, 09:17:42 AM »
You are correct, but of course as a clergy member the bishop of Canterbury should go beyond politics and put his soul first. He knows full well that his confession is false. He knows that Orthodoxy is the way but refuses to accept it.

I ask you again. How do you know what the Archbishop believes about EO?  What supporting evidence, what quotes can you give here to back up your opinion of a man whom I suspect you have never met personally.  Repeating a statement does not make it true.  Without something to back up your accusation, you are uttering calumny against the Archbishop.

Quote
He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things". 

Have you read this book?

Quote
The Anglicans had extensive talks with the Orthodox in the 1920's and orthodox recognition of their orders by Metaxakis was something they considered to validate them more than their own witness. 

 ???  Who is "they"?  Do you have any names or other information that can be looked at that you can give to support this assertion please?  

Quote
 As far as im concerned he is an agent of anti-christ for not steering his flock towards Orthodoxy when he knows its more beneficial for their souls than where they presently are..

Sigh.  How do you know what The Right Reverend Rowan Willians knows or believes beyond what he says or writes or does?  

Can you give any proof?

Ebor
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Offline prodromas

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2008, 09:21:04 AM »

You are correct, but of course as a clergy member the bishop of Canterbury should go beyond politics and put his soul first. He knows full well that his confession is false. He knows that Orthodoxy is the way but refuses to accept it. He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things".  The Anglicans had extensive talks with the Orthodox in the 1920's and orthodox recognition of their orders by Metaxakis was something they considered to validate them more than their own witness.   As far as im concerned he is an agent of anti-christ for not steering his flock towards Orthodoxy when he knows its more beneficial for their souls than where they presently are..

I agree with Ebor. buzuxi may I ask what makes you righteous enough to judge any man (especially an archbishop someone very important in the hierarchy)? And also don't reply back with "he is not in my hierarchy" malarky because the fact is whether you like it or not he is an archbishop presiding as the center of spiritual unity for the Anglican communion.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2008, 09:24:51 AM »
That's a book I'd like to see ....

It is easy enough to find and the Archbishop has in fact written two books on icons:
The Dwelling of the Light: Praying With Icons of Christ
and
Ponder These Things: Praying With Icons of the Virgin

They might be found through inter-library loan and used copies are also readily available via Advance Book Exchange www.abe.com or Bookfinder.com or on Ebay among other places.

Ebor
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2008, 10:01:41 AM »

You are correct, but of course as a clergy member the bishop of Canterbury should go beyond politics and put his soul first. He knows full well that his confession is false.

You do realize that the King/Queen of England is the "Defender of the Anglican Faith" and essentially outranks the Archbishop of Canterbury (OTOH, the Archbishop of Canterbury doesn't serve at the mercy of the reigning monarch).  AFAIK, Queen Elizabeth II has had very little comment on the topic at hand.   ???

He knows that Orthodoxy is the way but refuses to accept it. He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things".  The Anglicans had extensive talks with the Orthodox in the 1920's ....

As long as British Law requires a non-Anglican Monarch to convert to Anglicanism, the status quo will remain for a long, long time.

As far as im concerned he is an agent of anti-christ for not steering his flock towards Orthodoxy when he knows its more beneficial for their souls than where they presently are...

[tangent]
I attended a Day Care in an Episcopal Cathedral (I don't know how my father found this place - it's catty corner to Johns Hopkins University) - got kicked out after a week because I refused to take Communion and I wouldn't take naps.  Maybe I was just being a bad 3 year old.   ;)

Episcopal Cathedral of the Incarnation Website
[/tangent]
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 10:06:04 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline Amdetsion

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2008, 02:11:16 PM »
I imagine that there will be at least some Anglicans looking into Orthodoxy as a result of this, so perhaps some good will come of it in the end.

Lets us pray for this.
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Offline Amdetsion

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2008, 02:17:49 PM »
validity of the Anglican episcopacy

Can this be defined?

Validity for me means apostolic succession and adherence thereto.

I have not the slightest reason to think that the Anglicans have such nor care to.

The anglican church is a home made church built due to a myriad of local strife and political/royal entrigues of the English.

Only Christ can judge who is with or without salvation. But we can say that the true church is missing her beloved children who are still languishing in the world in all manners of doctrine and ways of worship and beliefs....all of whom are claiming they have Gods grace and hand upon them.

I hope so.

Women bishops are way out of line with the Holy Church and Holy eastern tradition in general.

When I say "eastern" I mean 'the east'; Jerusalem etc. This move is more closer to the western mindset and traditions of Godesses and so on. Not that that's bad. It just ain't Christian.

Women walking as men in Gods house?

God is not into womens lib. He put men, women and children in the proper place. He is a God of order not chaos. Liberalism is contrary to any kind of order and is chaotic in effect and as such is Godless.

Sadly; that seems to work in our society today and in our homes. (not mine of course). And now it is looking for space in Gods house.

WE did not take charge of our homes and society as God requires men to do and now we will have to all answer to God for failing to keep charge of His house.

Adam failed God in this way. So it seems we are set to do this yet again. satan is a powerful occuser.

The proof of Christ second advent and the need for it is glaringly obvious.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 02:44:56 PM by Amdetsion »
"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7

Offline GiC

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2008, 02:27:09 PM »
Can this be defined?

Validity for me means apostolic succession and adherence thereto.

I have not the slightest reason to think that the Anglicans have such nor care to.

In general, it is more useful to allow each religion to define their own terms and dogmas, rather than dictating to them what they mean. I am sure that the CoE is no more concerned about your definition of 'validity' than you are concerned with the Dalai Lama's definition of 'holiness'.
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Offline Amdetsion

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2008, 02:52:31 PM »
In general, it is more useful to allow each religion to define their own terms and dogmas, rather than dictating to them what they mean. I am sure that the CoE is no more concerned about your definition of 'validity' than you are concerned with the Dalai Lama's definition of 'holiness'.

I have absolutely no concern for the dalai lama's ideas.

We believe in one faith, one love, one baptism, one God.

Christ commanded His true beleivers to preach His gosple to all the world and whoever do not hear US we are to shake the dust off our shoes as a testamony against them; not climb in some liberal bed with those who hate the true word of Christ and the virtue of His Holy undividable Church.

This is 'useful' for the faith in Christ. But this leaves NO room for entertaining; particularly other peoples dogmas and ideas.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 02:56:29 PM by Amdetsion »
"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7

Offline GiC

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2008, 02:56:32 PM »
I have absolutely no concern for the dalai lama's ideas.

Which was exactly my point.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2008, 03:17:37 PM »
This is no longer about the original news item, but about people's opinions of the Anglican Church, so I'm moving it to the Orthodox-Protestant Discussion forum.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2008, 08:44:29 PM »
Can this be defined?

Validity for me means apostolic succession and adherence thereto.

I have not the slightest reason to think that the Anglicans have such nor care to.

The anglican church is a home made church built due to a myriad of local strife and political/royal entrigues of the English.

Only Christ can judge who is with or without salvation. But we can say that the true church is missing her beloved children who are still languishing in the world in all manners of doctrine and ways of worship and beliefs....all of whom are claiming they have Gods grace and hand upon them.

I hope so.

Women bishops are way out of line with the Holy Church and Holy eastern tradition in general.

When I say "eastern" I mean 'the east'; Jerusalem etc. This move is more closer to the western mindset and traditions of Godesses and so on. Not that that's bad. It just ain't Christian.

Women walking as men in Gods house?

God is not into womens lib. He put men, women and children in the proper place. He is a God of order not chaos. Liberalism is contrary to any kind of order and is chaotic in effect and as such is Godless.

Sadly; that seems to work in our society today and in our homes. (not mine of course). And now it is looking for space in Gods house.

WE did not take charge of our homes and society as God requires men to do and now we will have to all answer to God for failing to keep charge of His house.

Adam failed God in this way. So it seems we are set to do this yet again. satan is a powerful occuser.

The proof of Christ second advent and the need for it is glaringly obvious.



<sigh>
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2008, 08:53:01 PM »

But this leaves NO room for entertaining; particularly other peoples dogmas and ideas.

The Eastern Orthodox church would appear to disagree with you. Knowing other people's dogmas and ideas (honestly knowing them for the sake of dialogue and for the sake of the salvation of us all; not judging them) is just as relevant today as it was when the Church was young.
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In this way Christians considered certain Greek philosophers to have been enlightened by God to serve the cause of Truth and to lead men to fullness of life in God since the Word and Wisdom of God is revealed to all men and is found in all men who in the purity of their minds and hearts have been inspired by the Divine Light which enlightens every man who comes into this world. This Divine Light is the word of God, Jesus of Nazareth in human flesh, the perfection and fullness of God's self-revelation to the world.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 08:54:17 PM by Riddikulus »
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Offline Maksim

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2008, 10:25:01 PM »
It should be remembered that the Greek philosophers mentioned by Fr Thomas lived before the establishment of the Church on Earth.  They did not have access to the Truth, except for what God may have revealed to them.

As noted by a spokesman for the Moscow Patriarchate, this recent decision only "further alienates the Anglican Communion from the Apostolic tradition."  There's really no positive side to that, except that it might awaken individual Anglicans and cause them to seek the Orthodox faith.  At least, that is what I am praying for.

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2008, 10:31:41 PM »
It should be remembered that the Greek philosophers mentioned by Fr Thomas lived before the establishment of the Church on Earth.  They did not have access to the Truth, except for what God may have revealed to them.

It is remembered; and just as relevant today as when the Church was young. The Church is in dialogue with all peoples; it pays to know their beliefs if we wish to continue. If one wishes to cloister one's mind, one is free to do so; it isn't necessarily a virtue of Orthodoxy. Knowing what others believe isn't the same thing as agreeing with them. Finding common ground has been the way of dialogue; to the salvation of those we speak to. All truth is God's truth.

I apologise for taking the thread off on a tangent.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 10:47:33 PM by Riddikulus »
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2008, 11:02:24 PM »
As noted by a spokesman for the Moscow Patriarchate, this recent decision only "further alienates the Anglican Communion from the Apostolic tradition."  There's really no positive side to that, except that it might awaken individual Anglicans and cause them to seek the Orthodox faith.  At least, that is what I am praying for.

This, of course, is an Orthodox opinion, but perhaps we should simply pray that God's Will be done.
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Offline Thomas

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2008, 10:52:50 AM »
To my Episcoplaian and Anglican bretheren, I do not write this to offend you but to descibe briefly our eventual journey to the Orthodox Church and Why.

When my wife first left the Mormon Church she was attracted to The Episcopal Church.  Her Catechist Priest there told her that the Anglican Church was the Orthodox Church of England. She was happy to find what she believed to be a genuine apostolic church. Our sojurn in the Epsicopal Church lasted about three years. We left  and began our journey to Orthodoxy when the first women were  made priests in our Diocese and the ordaining ,male, bishop  preached on our daughter's confirmation day that Mary was not a Virgin at the birth of Christ, that Christ did not  physically raise from the dead,"because no one can do that", but that he was only spiritually resurrected (a heresy even among Episcopalians), and that the Apostles were great story tellers who wrote their Gospels in order to convert uneducated peasants to their movement.  Even our daughter had the common sense to recognize that that bishop was teaching false doctrine. We left and  within a year were chrismated as Orthodox Christians (we celebrated  20 years as Orthodox Christians last year).

Our hope is that the eyes of the Episcopalians/Anglicans may be opened to the false teachings that their leaders are presenting and be drawn to the Orthodox Church (Eastern or Western Rites) or demand their leaders return to the pristine beliefs of the Early Church . It is upon the Episcopalian laity to determine when enough is enough and determine if their loyalty is to a Church that is teaching  innovationism and modernism (and in extreme cases as in the case of our former bishop, even heresy) or to the Church as founded on Apostolic Christian teachings and bring about a return to the practices of the Early Church.

Thomas

« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 04:49:12 PM by Thomas »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2008, 05:28:45 PM »
My take on this news, from another forum.

A few may become Orthodox just like 15 years ago.

There used to be Anglo-Orthodox in the Church of England, trying to be Orthodox where they were and hoping for corporate reunion of the C of E with Orthodoxy. (Encouraged by friendly Orthodox in the 1930s who believed if all Anglicans unprotestantised and became Orthodox the clergy could be received in their orders. IIRC the founding first hierarch of ROCOR believed that.) After the ordination of women they disbanded and converted.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2008, 03:29:34 PM »
I have split of a tangent discussing GiC's personal beliefs from this thread and merged it here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16542.msg242125.html#msg242125
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2008, 10:54:24 PM »
They are on "fast track". Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIp19SjXCJw

The bad looking biker dude was the only sane one in the building. I know that some may not of liked what he's done, but if he was Anglican then I don't see a problem with it. If was wasn't Anglican then I would see it as being rude.

But he was the only sane one in the building.



JNORM888
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2008, 11:00:51 PM »
In general, it is more useful to allow each religion to define their own terms and dogmas, rather than dictating to them what they mean. I am sure that the CoE is no more concerned about your definition of 'validity' than you are concerned with the Dalai Lama's definition of 'holiness'.

The Dalai Lama doesn't claim to be christian. He claims to be Bhuddist, so his dispute is whith other bhuddists. The Cof E claims to be christian so other people who claim to be christian should have a say in the matter.

I use to be C of E and I think Amdetsion was in the right.



JNORM888
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Offline GiC

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2008, 12:11:21 AM »
The Dalai Lama doesn't claim to be christian. He claims to be Bhuddist, so his dispute is whith other bhuddists. The Cof E claims to be christian so other people who claim to be christian should have a say in the matter.

I use to be C of E and I think Amdetsion was in the right.

Buddhist, Christian, Pagan, what's the difference? You all believe in metaphysical things so shouldn't other people who claim to believe in metaphysical things have a say in the matter?
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Offline GiC

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #76 on: July 16, 2008, 12:12:27 AM »
They are on "fast track". Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIp19SjXCJw

The bad looking biker dude was the only sane one in the building.

Rude and obnoxious is your definition of sane? By your reasoning I must be a saint. ;D
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Offline prodromas

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2008, 01:40:37 AM »
Rude and obnoxious is your definition of sane? By your reasoning I must be a saint. ;D

O most rational first mover
we contemplate the proof of your existance
we reflect over your logical and realist servant Saint GIC
which assisted us in understanding the nature of your being.
Let us now bow our heads and reason.
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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #78 on: July 16, 2008, 11:42:55 AM »
The bad looking biker dude was the only sane one in the building.

One wonders how you *know* that and what do you mean by "sane", please?    :-\  You do not know the people who were attending or why some of them might have been there.  You disapprove of one man and so it's just fine that someone should act as the "biker dude" did?    It's fine to interrupt the speaking or services of someone or some Church that you don't like?

What if someone did that to one that you did?  Is it 'sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander' or a matter of whose ox is being gored?  :-\ 

And, I'm sorry, but Amdetsion has not shown that he knows much at all about the history or present situation of the Anglican Communion, nor what serious practicing Anglicans believe or do, or even if he knows any real life Anglicans.  Making disparaging remarks about another without any fact or support is not necessarily being "in the right".  :(

Sigh.

Ebor
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 11:47:00 AM by Ebor »
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Offline Heracleides

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #79 on: July 16, 2008, 12:07:55 PM »
One wonders how you *know* that and what do you mean by "sane", please?    :-\  You do not know the people who were attending or why some of them might have been there.  You disapprove of one man and so it's just fine that someone should act as the "biker dude" did?    It's fine to interrupt the speaking or services of someone or some Church that you don't like?

What if someone did that to one that you did?  Is it 'sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander' or a matter of whose ox is being gored?  :-\ 

And, I'm sorry, but Amdetsion has not shown that he knows much at all about the history or present situation of the Anglican Communion, nor what serious practicing Anglicans believe or do, or even if he knows any real life Anglicans.  Making disparaging remarks about another without any fact or support is not necessarily being "in the right".  :(

Sigh.

Ebor

So in counting these individuals, do I need one hand or two?  ;D
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Offline Ebor

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #80 on: July 16, 2008, 02:12:28 PM »
So in counting these individuals, do I need one hand or two?  ;D
.

Oh millions, actually.  :)

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Offline Amdetsion

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #81 on: July 16, 2008, 04:51:48 PM »
The Eastern Orthodox church would appear to disagree with you. Knowing other people's dogmas and ideas (honestly knowing them for the sake of dialogue and for the sake of the salvation of us all; not judging them) is just as relevant today as it was when the Church was young.
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At this point it must be mentioned that although God's self-revelation in history through the chosen people of Israel--the revelation which culminates in the coming of Christ the Messiah--is of primary importance, it is also the doctrine of the Christian Church that all genuine strivings of men after the truth are fulfilled in Christ. Every genuine insight into the meaning of life finds its perfection in the Christian Gospel. Thus, the holy fathers of the Church taught that the yearnings of pagan religions and the wisdom of many philosophers are also capable of serving to prepare men for the doctrines of Jesus and are indeed valid and genuine ways to the one Truth of God.

In this way Christians considered certain Greek philosophers to have been enlightened by God to serve the cause of Truth and to lead men to fullness of life in God since the Word and Wisdom of God is revealed to all men and is found in all men who in the purity of their minds and hearts have been inspired by the Divine Light which enlightens every man who comes into this world. This Divine Light is the word of God, Jesus of Nazareth in human flesh, the perfection and fullness of God's self-revelation to the world.


What you say here is very nice to hear. It makes room for everybody and everything.

Like the canons of Eutopia.

Maybe that is what we all need.

But first we must consder as orthodox after reading this wonderful thought is 'how can we find this same thought in the word of God in Christ Jesus?

Is this what is found in our Orthodox Cannon Law and belief?

And even iof we find certain things consistent; "truthful" maybe key things.......Are we to go around preaching Aristotle or John Wesley or Roger Williams or David Karesh or anyone else because they by some consciouness have by 'incident' or inclination share a like-minded-ness to the true teachings of the Holy Church?

Absolutely not!

Maybe on some issues only maybe?

Absolutely not!

Maybe just really small issues of a social sort?

Absolutely not!

Our Church fathers (all of us) are obligated to uphold the teaching and Holy traditions of the Holy Church.

We do not condem others who have some symblance of congruency with us albeit not with us. More so...WE 'reject' all; not the persons; but all teachings regardless of the 'likeness' or 'closeness' with us since such teaching are not FROM within the Holy Church.

The Holy Church is the ONLY authority for truth to the true Christian who is Orthodox in the faith.

Those who posess similar truths that may agree with ours must be judged by God in due time not by you or me. WE can say that they will not be saved if they have not professed Jesus Christ alone and Him by no other name or in any other person.

But WE are to ignor completely niether accepting nor denying what they teach or know as truth.

WE may even say that there is truth in the heart of all men. Why would'nt it be?

This should be obvious.

Adam had the truth in him. But yet perished!

WE must keep in mind that truth is not 'fruitful' without it being firnly and properly planted in the "good soil". That "Good soil" is the Holy Church Of Christ.

Also let us keep in mind that there are many in the world who have truth and will never see God or know His Salvation. Sadly; many of us who are bearers of the truth 'in-Christ' which is the fullness of all truth also will not see Gods Salvation. This fact should strike fear in the hearts of anyone of us who are depending on Gods Salavation.

The beginning of the 'truth' is Love which is in Christ.

The end of the 'truth' is Salvation and eternity with Christ.

WE as orthodox in the faith are preparing for eternity with God in Christ.

This is the beginning and the end of the only truth that matters to the orthodox


 

"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7

Offline Ebor

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #82 on: July 16, 2008, 05:29:58 PM »
Like the canons of Eutopia.

 ???  Would you please give more information on what the "canons of Eutopia" are?  Thank you in advance.

Ebor

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Offline Amdetsion

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2008, 06:07:51 PM »
???  Would you please give more information on what the "canons of Eutopia" are?  Thank you in advance.

Ebor



Uuhhhm?

Ebor....I was being metaphorical.

Try to read into it. If I still lost you than I will try to make it up to you in my next post with Gods grace.
"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7

Offline Ebor

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2008, 06:17:20 PM »
Uuhhhm?

Ebor....I was being metaphorical.

Try to read into it. If I still lost you than I will try to make it up to you in my next post with Gods grace.

I'm afraid I don't understand how you were being metaphorical.  Did you mean to refer to "Utopia, the idea of a theoretical perfect society with the name coming from the book by Sir Thomas More (which he did not believe it, but was getting across some observations on human societies in the book btw)?   I was trying to recall if there was such a place on the planet named "Eutopia" or whether you were creating a word, a neologism combining something like Europe and Utopia or was it a reference to something or someplace else.   My apologies, but your metaphor needs some explanation may be. 
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Offline Amdetsion

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #85 on: July 17, 2008, 01:26:58 PM »
I'm afraid I don't understand how you were being metaphorical.  Did you mean to refer to "Utopia, the idea of a theoretical perfect society with the name coming from the book by Sir Thomas More (which he did not believe it, but was getting across some observations on human societies in the book btw)?   I was trying to recall if there was such a place on the planet named "Eutopia" or whether you were creating a word, a neologism combining something like Europe and Utopia or was it a reference to something or someplace else.   My apologies, but your metaphor needs some explanation may be. 

I though most people used this term as I did to imply a "perfect world" not that that is the meaning intended by whoever established the phrase. I used it in this 'common sense' manner.

My post plainly and obviously was not trying to be highly scholastic or literal with this phrase.

I have never had to witness anyone wonder if Eutopia is an actual place....?

I have no idea who Sir Thomas More is. I am surprised that you would associate this person with this simple issue. Maybe my point or metaphor was confusing.....very very very confusing it seems.

But I think you are smart enough to now what I intended. If not before than definitely by now.

I suggest we let (this) go now so the thread can move on more productively.

Sorry for the massive confusion.
"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #86 on: July 17, 2008, 01:33:25 PM »
The word meaning a "perfect world" is spelled Utopia. That may be the cause of this confusion.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Ebor

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2008, 11:10:41 AM »
I though most people used this term as I did to imply a "perfect world" not that that is the meaning intended by whoever established the phrase. I used it in this 'common sense' manner.

The word "utopia" which is used to mean a "perfect world" became part of the English language because of Sir Thomas More and his book Utopia written in 1516.  That is where it comes from and why it has the 'common sense' meaning; they are one and the same.  However, as Ytterbiumanalyst posted the misspelling of the word as "Eutopia" was the cause of the confusion.  I know enough Greek to know that "eu" is a prefix in that language that means "good".  When you spelled it that way, I wondered if there were a real place that had been named "Eutopia" at which some canons were written.  I was asking for more information.

As a note the word "Utopia" means "No Place", which is significant as to why More gave his fictional country that name.

Quote
My post plainly and obviously was not trying to be highly scholastic or literal with this phrase.

To a writer something may be "plain" that isn't that way to a reader.  There is nothing "highly scholastic" about asking for an idea to be explained or clarified, I think. 

Quote
I have never had to witness anyone wonder if Eutopia is an actual place....?

I have no idea who Sir Thomas More is. I am surprised that you would associate this person with this simple issue. Maybe my point or metaphor was confusing.....very very very confusing it seems.

Because More is why the word is part of English.  Knowing the background of something can be helpful in understanding things.  I was not confused.  I was asking for more information. 

Perhaps you could explain what you intended by this metaphor, please?  Understanding what others mean and are trying to say is helpful in communicating.

Quote
But I think you are smart enough to now what I intended. If not before than definitely by now.

Yes, now that it has been cleared up that it was a matter if an error. Thank you.  It's not a matter of getting 'smarter' but having an explanation.

Ebor 




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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2008, 12:32:17 PM »
^ On behalf of the newly created American Society for the Proliferation of Etymological Research, I pronounce this to be our Society's choice for Post of the Month.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline SolEX01

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Re: C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)
« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2008, 02:21:36 PM »
Apparently this discussion has lost its focus and momentum and some threads need to be spun off or merged into their own relevant topics.   ???