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« on: July 01, 2008, 01:19:32 PM »

I've attended about 4 Roman Catholic Masses in my brief life (all Latin Rite) ranging from 1990 to last week.  Clearly, in the Orthodox Churches, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and/or St. Basil is relatively straightforward to follow week in and week out.  In fact, I've memorized most of the Liturgy over the years.

However, when attending a Roman Catholic Mass, I see some masses take 20 minutes, other masses take 60 minutes and one mass taking over 2 hours (which was an Ordination Mass of a former school teacher and a number of others).  Why the differential and why doesn't the Latin Rite Catholics have a consistent Mass.  I realize that Vatican II had a lot to do with the change in mass and I can tell the difference between High and Low Mass.  Plus, some Catholic Churches have more than one Mass a day - do they simply perform the same Mass as many times as necessary?

Please keep answers focused on Latin Rite Catholicism.  Thanks.   Wink
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2008, 02:25:25 PM »

I assume you are talking about the post-Vatican II liturgy. It depends on a lot of things:

Is it a daily Mass or a Sunday/feast day Mass? Sundays/feast days have prescribed texts that daily Masses don't have, making it longer.
How many communicants are there? Is the priest the only one giving out communion, or are there others helping him?
Is there music? What kind? Are the whole hymns sung, or just a few verses?
How fast does the priest talk?

Never having been to an ordination Mass, I couldn't tell you anything about that, but on a Sunday the same Mass is said multiple times.
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2008, 02:35:42 PM »

Wynd, Thank you for answering these questions.   Smiley

I assume you are talking about the post-Vatican II liturgy. It depends on a lot of things:

Yes, post-Vatican II.

Is it a daily Mass or a Sunday/feast day Mass? Sundays/feast days have prescribed texts that daily Masses don't have, making it longer.

I've never been to a Sunday Mass.  Most of the Masses were on Saturdays with the most recent one on a Monday.

How many communicants are there? Is the priest the only one giving out communion, or are there others helping him?

At the recent Mass, there was one priest and one lay woman distributing the Eucharist.  There was also an altar boy and a female reader (for Psalms and Epistles).

Is there music? What kind? Are the whole hymns sung, or just a few verses?

I saw music (5 piece rock band) at the first Mass in 1990.  The congregation sang a few hymns and responses at the most recent daily Mass.

How fast does the priest talk?

The priest spoke a little quicker than usual at the daily Mass.

Never having been to an ordination Mass, I couldn't tell you anything about that, but on a Sunday the same Mass is said multiple times.

The Ordination Mass was the most formal RC Mass I've attended.
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2008, 02:38:35 PM »

I've attended about 4 Roman Catholic Masses in my brief life (all Latin Rite) ranging from 1990 to last week.  Clearly, in the Orthodox Churches, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and/or St. Basil is relatively straightforward to follow week in and week out.  In fact, I've memorized most of the Liturgy over the years.

However, when attending a Roman Catholic Mass, I see some masses take 20 minutes, other masses take 60 minutes and one mass taking over 2 hours (which was an Ordination Mass of a former school teacher and a number of others).  Why the differential and why doesn't the Latin Rite Catholics have a consistent Mass.  I realize that Vatican II had a lot to do with the change in mass and I can tell the difference between High and Low Mass.  Plus, some Catholic Churches have more than one Mass a day - do they simply perform the same Mass as many times as necessary?

Please keep answers focused on Latin Rite Catholicism.  Thanks.   Wink

A weekday Mass is different from a Sunday Mass; some things are left out.  For example:

.  on Sunday you will have an Old Testament reading and a New Testament (Epistle) reading before the Gospel; on weekdays, only one non-Gospel reading.

.  The Creed is not recited on weekdays, unless it's a feast day or solemnity; also, sometimes the "Prayers of the Faithful" which follow are left out as well.

I used to go to Mass every morning and to be honest, since I had to rush to get to Mass and then rush to get to work on time, I was not too upset with the "abbreviated" version of the Liturgy - it meant that I could stay through the entire (if shortened) Liturgy, rather than having to leave before receiving the Eucharist.
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2008, 02:49:07 PM »

Thank You, theistgal.   Smiley

A weekday Mass is different from a Sunday Mass; some things are left out.  For example:

.  on Sunday you will have an Old Testament reading and a New Testament (Epistle) reading before the Gospel; on weekdays, only one non-Gospel reading.

.  The Creed is not recited on weekdays, unless it's a feast day or solemnity; also, sometimes the "Prayers of the Faithful" which follow are left out as well.

The Creed was recited at last Monday's daily mass although 6/23/08 was the eve of The Nativity of John the Baptist.  The Mass served was a RC version of an abbreviated Vesperal Mass, not sure.

I used to go to Mass every morning and to be honest, since I had to rush to get to Mass and then rush to get to work on time, I was not too upset with the "abbreviated" version of the Liturgy - it meant that I could stay through the entire (if shortened) Liturgy, rather than having to leave before receiving the Eucharist.

The daily mass started at 5:30 PM and lasted just shy of 30 minutes.  Most of the congregants were arriving from work and numbered close to 65-70 people.  The Eucharist was distributed at the 20 minute mark (e.g. 5:50 PM).
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2008, 04:35:13 PM »

I've never been to a Sunday Mass.  Most of the Masses were on Saturdays with the most recent one on a Monday.

Was it Saturday evening? Most Roman Catholic churches have a Saturday evening Mass that's essentially the same thing as the Sunday Mass, just on Saturday. It's for people who aren't able (or willing) to go Sunday morning.
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 04:36:46 PM »

Was it Saturday evening? Most Roman Catholic churches have a Saturday evening Mass that's essentially the same thing as the Sunday Mass, just on Saturday. It's for people who aren't able (or willing) to go Sunday morning.

Yes, the first Mass I attended was on a Saturday evening at my sister's old Catholic School.
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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 04:56:54 PM »

The last Roman Catholic Mass I was at was the one where there was only an entrance and exit hymn sung.  Everything else was just recited. I guess the length really depends on the day, the music, the length of homily if there is one at all (as in daily mass) and the number of communicants.
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2008, 05:26:33 PM »

The daily Mass I go to is about 25 minutes. There is no music except for opening and closing hymns.

The Sunday Novus Ordo (our shorthand for the modern form promulgated in 1970) I sometimes go to is ordinarily a tad over an hour (the pastor gives very brief---but good---homilies)---most of the music is chant and traditional hymnody, with some Taize mixed in. Another parish I occasionally go to, whose Novus Ordo has a boys' choir doing classical settings, does it in about an hour and twenty minutes.

I more frequently go to the traditional Mass---if it's a Low Mass, it's about an hour (Missa Cantata---Low Mass with a Gregorian chant schola). If it's a High Mass with all the trimmings, it takes 1:30 to 1:45. The longest Mass in my recollection is the Easter Vigil, which is a good 3 hours.
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2008, 09:08:16 PM »

I've attended about 4 Roman Catholic Masses in my brief life (all Latin Rite) ranging from 1990 to last week.  Clearly, in the Orthodox Churches, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and/or St. Basil is relatively straightforward to follow week in and week out.  In fact, I've memorized most of the Liturgy over the years.

However, when attending a Roman Catholic Mass, I see some masses take 20 minutes, other masses take 60 minutes and one mass taking over 2 hours (which was an Ordination Mass of a former school teacher and a number of others).  Why the differential and why doesn't the Latin Rite Catholics have a consistent Mass.  I realize that Vatican II had a lot to do with the change in mass and I can tell the difference between High and Low Mass.  Plus, some Catholic Churches have more than one Mass a day - do they simply perform the same Mass as many times as necessary?

Please keep answers focused on Latin Rite Catholicism.  Thanks.   Wink

Well before Vatican II, you would have had a consistent Mass, and would have been able to make the statement above regarding the Divine Liturgy and included the Roman Mass. The only thing that would have changed from Mass to Mass would have been the Propers - just like the kontakia and tropars change from liturgy to liturgy (and some things said a bit differently if the Liturgy is celebrated during a weekday vs. a Sunday).

The variations you see reflect the variations (and in some cases abuses, depending on whom you talk to) allowed in the celebration of the Mass after Vatican II. The variations post-VII can be so much that the same Mass celebrated from one parish to another (a cathedral versus a Newmann center on a college camplus, for example) can sometimes look like two completely different services or even denominations.

In the Orthodox Western rite, the Mass of St. Gregory is the same from mass to Mass, with the readings and the propers being the only thing that change. You just need the missal to follow the propers for the day. So, a regular churchgoer has the Mass pretty much memorized as well - just lke those who regularly go to the Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2008, 09:15:38 PM »

If it's a High Mass with all the trimmings, it takes 1:30 to 1:45. The longest Mass in my recollection is the Easter Vigil, which is a good 3 hours.

That sounds like ours. Our Masses are always Solemn High Masses, that are an hour and a half. You can add another 30 minutes if there is a Vespers or matins sung prior to Mass (depending on if it is celebrated in the evening or morning). Our Easter vigil is the full Roman rite vigil that definitely takes 3 hours. A great service. To me Easter is not Easter without the Exulset Smiley
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lubeltri
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« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2008, 08:41:00 PM »

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« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 09:24:49 PM »

I've attended about 4 Roman Catholic Masses in my brief life (all Latin Rite) ranging from 1990 to last week.  Clearly, in the Orthodox Churches, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and/or St. Basil is relatively straightforward to follow week in and week out.  In fact, I've memorized most of the Liturgy over the years.

However, when attending a Roman Catholic Mass, I see some masses take 20 minutes, other masses take 60 minutes and one mass taking over 2 hours (which was an Ordination Mass of a former school teacher and a number of others).  Why the differential and why doesn't the Latin Rite Catholics have a consistent Mass.  I realize that Vatican II had a lot to do with the change in mass and I can tell the difference between High and Low Mass.  Plus, some Catholic Churches have more than one Mass a day - do they simply perform the same Mass as many times as necessary?

Please keep answers focused on Latin Rite Catholicism.  Thanks.   Wink

I am guessing the 20 minute liturgy was a weekday liturgy.  They tend to have very short liturgies during the week because there are no hymns and they don't say the creed and there is no homily.  Sunday liturgies are about an hour long. 
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« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2008, 10:29:20 PM »



Hmm, seems a little light on the ad orientem...

P.S. -- love the instructions!
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2008, 12:36:44 AM »

Hmm, seems a little light on the ad orientem...

Well, this one is aimed at 4- to 7-year-olds. The grown-up version has more ad orientem Smiley

Always good to supplement with some of this:

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« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2008, 05:05:02 AM »

Well, this one is aimed at 4- to 7-year-olds. The grown-up version has more ad orientem Smiley

Always good to supplement with some of this:



Now THAT is TOO FUNNY!!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Wonder if there's an Orthodox graphic to match?
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2008, 09:11:16 AM »

 Smiley I forgot to give credit to where credit is due. That is the work of very funny Catholic blogger the Curt Jester.

http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/
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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2008, 06:30:08 PM »

Hello,

Daily Masses on ordinary, non-feast days do tend to be short (anywhere from fifteen to forty-five minutes, depending). Things that are generally not included at a daily Mass that would be at a Sunday Mass are:

Singing (hymns, chant, etc. - everything is recited)
Gloria
Second Reading
Homily
Credo
Petitions

A regular Sunday Mass according to the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite (Novus Ordo; Mass of Paul VI) normally takes from forty-five minutes to one-and-a-half hours. A lot varies on how long of a homily is given, how much is sung and/or chanted, and how fast the Priest talks. Homilies can take from two minutes to a half-hour. If the Priest speaks s__l__o__w__l__y   l__i__k__e    t__h__i__s, then the time can add up quickly - or if the priest is trying to set his tongue on fire, the Mass can be over very quickly. Surprisingly (despite what some will claim) the use or non-use of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion doesn't account for more than a five minute savings on time in a normal parish setting. If all of the Ordinary is sung or chanted, this can add upwards of fifteen to twenty minutes than if it is just recited.

Despite what some might think, the Mass is pretty uniform. The text will be almost all the same everywhere (there are some options for the Ordinary, like for the Penitential Rite, and usually an alternate prayer for the Collect). The main difference in text will be which Canon will be used (there are about seven now, I think, of which three are generally used - 1 (Roman), 2, and 3) The main differences (besides the general level of reverence exhibited) in non-dissident Masses are in the style of music - which ranges from heavy metal (I kid you not Cry) to traditional Gregorian Chant - and the level of 'extras' that aren't required, such as incense, processions, etc.
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« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2008, 07:11:24 PM »

The main differences (besides the general level of reverence exhibited) in non-dissident Masses are in the style of music - which ranges from heavy metal (I kid you not Cry) to traditional Gregorian Chant - and the level of 'extras' that aren't required, such as incense, processions, etc.

How much can the music get away from Gregorian chant and not be considered "dissident?"

P.S. Welcome back, Athanasios! I haven't seen you online in a while.
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« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2008, 09:08:48 PM »

Hello,

How much can the music get away from Gregorian chant and not be considered "dissident?"
That could take a couple hundred threads to answer. Tongue Just take a peek at the Liturgy and Sacraments forum over at CAF to see what I mean. There is a definite fight right now in the area of Catholic Church between those who view Sacred Music as an art form to accompany the reverential beauty demanded in the Liturgy and those who what to have something to hip-hop to so they won't be bored at Mass (to put it mildly).

Indeed, if you read all the documents on Sacred Music and on Liturgy from the last hundred (you could go back further), the mind of the Church is that Gregorian Chant is to hold pride of place and that Polyphony is the silver medalist. The latest document on Sacred Music is Pope John Paul II's Chirograph on Sacred Music in which he says, quoting Pope Saint Pius X (Tra le Sollecitudini, n. 3):  "The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple"

The current argument is where the documents say something to the effect of 'other suitable forms may be used'. To me that means that hymns, such as Holy, Holy, Holy and Holy God We Praise Thy Name and the like may be used in their proper place (i.e., entrance and closing hymns). But some want to twist it to mean that absolutely any music (and just about any lyrics - no matter how raunchy or heretical) can be used at Mass and be licit - thus you have heavy metal monster alleluia ballads and happy clappy hippy music and the top 40 all rolled into the category of music suitable (?) for Mass (check the current offerings from OCP).

The good news is that the side for traditional Gregorian Chant, polyphony, and good hymns is winning. More and more traditional music is being brought back and the errors of the so-called expert liturgists of the 70s and 80s are being exposed and corrected. But, we still have a ways to go to rid completely that nonsense.


P.S. Welcome back, Athanasios! I haven't seen you online in a while.
Thanks. I've been busy. School, a new job, some freelance work, family and health problems, etc.
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« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2008, 06:39:09 PM »

Hello,

I just wanted to note that the Bishop celebrated Mass at my Parish for the Solemnity of Our Lady of Mount Carmel - July 16. From beginning to end with full Pontificals it lasted 1 hour and 45 minutes. That's about as long as a 'non-super-duper' Mass (i.e., Easter, Christmas) will last in the Latin Rite using the Mass of Paul VI (Novus Ordo).
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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2011, 10:15:15 PM »

I've attended about 4 Roman Catholic Masses in my brief life (all Latin Rite) ranging from 1990 to last week.  Clearly, in the Orthodox Churches, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and/or St. Basil is relatively straightforward to follow week in and week out.  In fact, I've memorized most of the Liturgy over the years.

However, when attending a Roman Catholic Mass, I see some masses take 20 minutes, other masses take 60 minutes and one mass taking over 2 hours (which was an Ordination Mass of a former school teacher and a number of others).  Why the differential and why doesn't the Latin Rite Catholics have a consistent Mass.  I realize that Vatican II had a lot to do with the change in mass and I can tell the difference between High and Low Mass.  Plus, some Catholic Churches have more than one Mass a day - do they simply perform the same Mass as many times as necessary?

Please keep answers focused on Latin Rite Catholicism.  Thanks.   Wink

I've been to as many novus ordos as you have, and they were all the same (then again, they were all funeral novus ordos, which I personally found rather apt.)

The classic Roman Catholic Mass, the Tridentine Latin Rite Mass, is an hour for low Mass and 90 mins for  a high Mass. Always the same too!
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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2011, 02:44:49 AM »

I've been to many, many Novus Ordos, and they generally range from 45 minutes to an hour and a half on Sundays (the biggest variable is the homily, as well as the amount and type of music).

Weekday Masses are shorter, usually about 20 minutes (little or no homily, less music, fewer readings, some of the Ordinary parts left out like the Credo).
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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2011, 02:46:23 AM »

Feasts vary in length, depending.

The Nativity, Palm Sunday and Easter Vigil Masses are the longest of the year. The Easter Vigil I was at in April was just shy of three hours (between 2 and 3 hours is typical).
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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2011, 09:37:03 AM »

Thanks for the updates.   Wink
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« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2011, 05:08:10 PM »

Feasts vary in length, depending.

The Nativity, Palm Sunday and Easter Vigil Masses are the longest of the year. The Easter Vigil I was at in April was just shy of three hours (between 2 and 3 hours is typical).
I love the Easter Vigil. Smiley
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