OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 30, 2014, 06:27:02 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Episcopal General Convention is This Week  (Read 10465 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
CDHealy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 112

I'm a philosophy major.

chealy5
WWW
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2003, 02:45:44 PM »

Keble:

I'm afraid you're missing one very important point.  Yes, the resolution in one respect merely continues what has been going on for some time, that of local option.  But what is far more significant, ECUSA will have, by convention's end, said in official terms that this present state is okay.  And by so doing, they will have approved of same-sex unions.
Logged

Clifton D. Healy
email: chealy5@yahoo.com
blog: http://benedictseraphim.wordpress.com

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--Hamlet,
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2003, 03:40:03 PM »

Keble:

I'm afraid you're missing one very important point.  Yes, the resolution in one respect merely continues what has been going on for some time, that of local option.  But what is far more significant, ECUSA will have, by convention's end, said in official terms that this present state is okay.  And by so doing, they will have approved of same-sex unions.

Well, other people would say that the resolution states that the present state is not OK. It is worded to mean all things to all people; you seem to want it to mean that the ECUSA accepts these unions as a body and that its members submit to that approval. If that is what it is supposed to say, then why doesn't it say that? It doesn't say the latter because that's not the way Anglicanism works; it doesn't say the former because, obviously, a resolution that did say that couldn't be passed.

The only real significance of the solution to me personally is the possibility that it means that the conservatives may take more of the church with them than just themselves. I fully realize that this is a hope rather than a conclusion. But your black-and-white reading of this reflects you, rather than the church which you (more than anyone else here) should know is not a church of blacks and whites.
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,456


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2003, 03:47:45 PM »

I think it is sad if a Church can't make simple "yes/no" statements on questions of morality.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2003, 04:17:49 PM »

Anyway guys, I think our pushing Keble is for nought at the moment. He will not join the Orthodox church until he is convinced, heart and mind, that it truley is the visible church founded by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If he and his wife need a shove, it needs to come, not from us, but from the Holy Spirit.

Keble, you and your wife are in my prayers. The Episcopal church seems to suit you in that apart from all the mess you feel most comfortable there. Just understand that our salvation has nothing to do with us feeling comfortable and a great deal to do with humility. My first years in the Orthodox church were anything but comfortable, but I knew it was where I had to be. I hope you come to the same understanding soon.

God bless you.

unworthy John
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2003, 04:24:37 PM »

Thank you, prodromos, for your words of understanding. At this point there is little further to be said about the "decisions" of the ECUSA GC. The conservatives will meet; it is said there will be an extraordinary meeting of primates. Until then, I will be watchifully waitng, and praying, and considering.
Logged
CDHealy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 112

I'm a philosophy major.

chealy5
WWW
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2003, 04:46:55 PM »

Keble:

Yes, indeed, having gone to Seabury-Western Theological Seminary, I know quite a bit about "black-and-white."

The thing I find surprising is that in all--and I mean all--the news accounts I've read with regard to this resolution from both conservatives and liberals is that this resolutions makes it okay that same-sex unions get blessed.

But clearly there is something getting in the way of your recognizing what I and many others recognize as clear language.

Prodromos reminds me that I may have descended into "pushing" you, and that I regret.  So I'll not continue to assert what I take to be the clarity of the resolution, its intent and its consequences.

Please accept my apologies if my pressing this matter has offended you.
Logged

Clifton D. Healy
email: chealy5@yahoo.com
blog: http://benedictseraphim.wordpress.com

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--Hamlet,
MartinIntlStud
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 134



« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2003, 03:18:01 AM »

I think what has happened to the Episcopal Church is a good example of the great problem with Protestantism as a whole. All of it, whether it's "conservative" or "liberal" or "evangelical" or "liturgical/traditional" is theologically fluid, every single group with NO exceptions. The fact that the Episcopal Church is backtracking on the original doctrines against homosexuality is no worse than the Southern Baptists denouncing the Sacraments or any other basic doctrine. When even One fundamental doctrine changes, the entire structure of belief becomes vulnerable to what has happened to the Episcopal Church. It is the idea that the truth is one way for one group of Christians and it's different for another group of Christians because the "basics are the same" that causes what just happened. The ENTIRE doctrine is the basics, all of it, together, in unity, unchanged.
Logged
CDHealy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 112

I'm a philosophy major.

chealy5
WWW
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2003, 09:52:47 AM »

Well said, Martin.
Logged

Clifton D. Healy
email: chealy5@yahoo.com
blog: http://benedictseraphim.wordpress.com

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--Hamlet,
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2003, 02:05:18 PM »

Cantuar has announced that there will be an extraordinary meeting of the Anglican primates in mid-October.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2003, 02:05:44 PM by Keble » Logged
A. Seeker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2



« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2003, 03:58:02 PM »

Martin, maybe I'm just not getting it , but I do not quit understand what you meant when you said:

"The fact that the Episcopal Church is backtracking on the original doctrines against homosexuality is no worse than the Southern Baptists denouncing the Sacraments or any other basic doctrine."

I'm not a member of either of the two churches mentioned. But ...well.......what do ya mean?!?!

Still hurting and praying  about this whole mess,

A. Seeker
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2003, 04:56:59 PM »

FROM AP New Service:

The Rev. Francis Wade, head of the liturgical committee that wrote the convention’s document on same-sex ceremonies, said he interpreted the measure to mean that dioceses conducting such ceremonies "are operating within the parameters of the understanding of this church and its doctrine and discipline."

Wade’s explanation marks a reversal from how several bishops viewed the document when they approved it Wednesday. Those bishops had described the statement as only an acknowledgment that same-sex unions are being blessed in local dioceses — not an endorsement.

The Episcopal gay advocacy group Integrity said "we understand the language clearly to give national license" to the ceremonies.

The Rev. Kendall Harmon, a leading conservative who lobbied against the document, said what "seems like a compromise" actually isn’t.

"Let’s be honest. This is authorization," Harmon said. "It sanctions homosexual behavior."


Logged
MartinIntlStud
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 134



« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2003, 02:07:33 AM »

Any backtracking on any doctrine is the same evil. My point is that all of the Protestant groups are part of the same hypocrisy. One could say that some are "better" than others, but from an Orthodox perspective, they're all equally wrong because to be Orthodox is to include ALL of the doctrines, whether it's recognizing the Body and Blood of Our Lord, maintaining liturgical worship, or rejecting homosexuality.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2003, 01:03:15 PM »

Any backtracking on any doctrine is the same evil. My point is that all of the Protestant groups are part of the same hypocrisy.

We seem to be backtracking on another doctrine here.....

At any rate, shouldn't this sort of attack belong in the Free-For_All section?
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2003, 08:38:32 AM »

Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina leaders want to reject openly gay bishop-elect
CHARLESTON, S.C. (AP) — Leaders of the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina met Monday to discuss what to do next now that the Episcopal Church has approved its first openly gay bishop-elect and affirmed same-sex blessing ceremonies.

Leaders agreed they to want reject the General Convention’s election earlier this month of the Rev. Gene Robinson — who divorced his wife and moved in with a gay man — as bishop coadjutor of New Hampshire.

The South Carolina church leaders asked Bishop Edward L. Salmon Jr. to call a special convention for a formal response to the denomination’s actions, The (Charleston) Post and Courier reported.

The special convention would reject the actions of the General Convention, affirm the diocese’s membership in the Anglican Communion, and appeal to the primates of the Anglican Communion "to intervene in the pastoral crisis" in the Episcopal Church, according to a resolution approved at the meeting.

The 2.4 million-member Episcopal Church is one of the more liberal members of the 77 million-member Anglican Communion. The Diocese of South Carolina was a member of the Anglican Church some 80 years before the Episcopal Church became a separate province.

"I’m embarrassed to call myself an Episcopalian anymore," said the Rev. Haden McCormick of St. Philip’s Episcopal Church, the mother church of the diocese. "I’m an Anglican looking for a home."

The convention would be held sometime before the leaders of the Anglican Communion meet in October to talk about the Episcopal Church.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2003, 08:38:59 AM by TomS » Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2003, 09:11:44 AM »

This is rather a bit of faux-news. Everything they have asked for is already going to take place. Bishop Salmon is surely going to be at the Plano meeting, and the prelates are going to meet immediately after. What they don't report is that Salmon sent out a letter to his parishes saying that he would give them all the cooperation they want in preventing money from reaching the national church.

Then there's this passage:

Quote
The 2.4 million-member Episcopal Church is one of the more liberal members of the 77 million-member Anglican Communion. The Diocese of South Carolina was a member of the Anglican Church some 80 years before the Episcopal Church became a separate province.

This makes no sense at all. There was no "Diocese of South Carolina" before the revolution, and no "provinces" either. There were no bishops in the colonies. Someone is spinning furiously.

Salmon may well convene this extraordinary meeting, but it's basically a pep really for what is going to happen anyway.
Logged
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2003, 10:13:03 AM »

Those guys should just convert to Catholicism and end their misery.

Matt
« Last Edit: August 19, 2003, 10:13:38 AM by Frobisher » Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2003, 10:28:19 AM »

Those guys should just convert to Catholicism and end their misery.

Considering all the Novus Ordo Catholic services I've been to, that would merely be trading one misery for another.
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2003, 10:32:40 AM »

Besides, these people are AGAINST Gays as clergy and bishops!

The Catholic Church may be against it "on record" but the reality is quite different.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2003, 10:51:49 AM by TomS » Logged
David
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of the South)
Posts: 1,952


Retired GM


WWW
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2003, 10:40:46 AM »

touche
Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2003, 11:10:43 AM »

Gay marriages and gay bishops in the Catholic Church? Hardly.
Logged
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2003, 11:17:42 AM »

Keble, some Episcopalian churches have already joined with the Catholic Church and have maintained their venerable liturgies.
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2003, 11:33:09 AM »

Frobisher, I don't mean to offend, but here is my take on the Roman Catholic Church:

Long ago (probably around the time of the sacking of Constantinople) the RCC came under the influence and control of the Prince of This World. In my opinion, there is absolutely no other way to explain the despicable acts of this "church" over the centuries. Tell me what "church of God" knowingly shelters numerous pedophiles!

To me it is pretty logical that the Orthodox Church is the true church, simply because Satan let the RCC go out and do as it pleased, while doing all he could to enslave the Orthodox Churches under Islam and then Communism. The RCC, and subsequently Protestantism, is being used to mislead the flock.

You really cannot believe that the RCC DOES NOT knowingly consecrate gay bishops. Of COURSE they do - they just will not admit it. You are probably right that the RCC will not allow gay marriages. Satan is not stupid, he knows that if he did that, that the deception would be more easily exposed.

And I know that many will argure my viewpoint, but it is what I believe.
Logged
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2003, 11:50:18 AM »

Good points, Tom. Covering up sex abuse is simply wrong, and that's why some are getting the picture. But just because some bishops cover it up doesn't mean the Catholic Church isn't the Church of God. Remember Judas? Remember when 11/12s of the Episcopate apostasized?

However, the recent media attacks on the RCC are simply unfair and hypocritical, considering that in Massachussets in 2000 alone there were 60,000 cases of child abuse compared with the 1000 in the Archdiocese of Boston over 6 decades. Considering that the Catholic Church is the most organized and wealthy, as well as the most adamantly pro-life, it's easy to see why these attacks occur.

TomS "Of COURSE they do - they just will not admit it"

Well, you can't just blantantly throw out such accusations. Stranger things have happened, of course.

You have to ask yourself about the GOC's involvement with the Catholic Church as well. The EP meets with the Pope frequently and lifted the anathemas against the RCC in the 1960s. What about branch theory? Is he under the influence of the evil one too? I don't think so. With all due respect, I think gay marriage and gay bishops are just as likely to occur in the GOA as in the RCC, and I don't think it's very likely in either case.
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2003, 12:34:51 PM »

You have to ask yourself about the GOC's involvement with the Catholic Church as well. The EP meets with the Pope frequently and lifted the anathemas against the RCC in the 1960s. What about branch theory? Is he under the influence of the evil one too? I don't think so. With all due respect, I think gay marriage and gay bishops are just as likely to occur in the GOA as in the RCC, and I don't think it's very likely in either case.

I am against the EP meeting with the Pope or ANY non-Orthodox religious leader unless it is for PURELY SECULAR reasons and there are NO religious services or prayers offered during the meeting.

As for Gay marriage and bishops -- absolutely NOT on the Gay marriages. A Gay bishop, etc. -- of course that is possible. The Evil One can always get a lucky punch in every now and again! But, unlike in the RCC, there is not a Gay subculture lurking around within the Orthodox Church that would support him.

And let me say that if ANY of these things happened, then yes, I would consider the GOA to be corrupted and under the influence of the Evil One, and I would search for a more conservative Orthodox Church to attend.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2003, 12:37:01 PM by TomS » Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2003, 04:10:05 PM »

Keble, some Episcopalian churches have already joined with the Catholic Church and have maintained their venerable liturgies.

This has basically the same problems that the Antiochian western rite does. It maintains the form of Anglicanism without any of the substance (except that maybe in the RC church they are more likely to turn a blind eye towards our eccentric theology). There are no western rite Antiochian bishops, and there are no Anglican rite RC bishops.

At this point there is no reason for anyone to do anything until the primates meet in October-- at least no reason that wasn't already there a year ago.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,393


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2003, 04:23:46 PM »

This has basically the same problems that the Antiochian western rite does. It maintains the form of Anglicanism without any of the substance (except that maybe in the RC church they are more likely to turn a blind eye towards our eccentric theology).

Dear Keble,

I'm sorry if this doesn't sound right, but I don't know how else to ask it.  What, exactly, is the substance of Anglicanism?  It seems to me that Anglicans going over to Roman Catholicism would be retrieving more substance, at least as far as theology goes.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2003, 04:32:51 PM »

But, unlike in the RCC, there is not a Gay subculture lurking around within the Orthodox Church that would support him.

Maybe not a visible subculture......
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2003, 04:40:21 PM »

No, Keble. It is not needed because all but Monks can marry.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2003, 04:44:39 PM »

This has basically the same problems that the Antiochian western rite does. It maintains the form of Anglicanism without any of the substance (except that maybe in the RC church they are more likely to turn a blind eye towards our eccentric theology).

Dear Keble,

I'm sorry if this doesn't sound right, but I don't know how else to ask it.  What, exactly, is the substance of Anglicanism?  It seems to me that Anglicans going over to Roman Catholicism would be retrieving more substance, at least as far as theology goes.  

I'm going to take this over to "Other".
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,393


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2003, 05:29:19 PM »

I'm going to take this over to "Other".


Sounds good to me, Keble.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2003, 08:10:20 AM »

Billions in assets at stake as the Episcopal Church faces a possible breakup
By RICHARD N. OSTLING

AP Religion Writer

The 7,364 congregations of the Episcopal Church receive $2.14 billion in offerings a year: Their buildings and liquid assets are worth untold billions.

Add it up and suddenly much more is at stake than spiritual matters if the church splits over the Episcopal General Convention’s approval of an openly gay bishop. Both conservatives and liberals are beginning to ponder the prospect of drawn-out, messy financial squabbles.

"This could be the biggest church real estate sale in history," says the Rev. Charles Nalls of the Washington-based Canon Law Institute.

Nalls, who recently quit the denomination because he felt it was getting too liberal, says about 100 aggrieved congregations have asked his institute for advice about possible withdrawal and property rights.

In addition, at least 52 congregations in 20 states, 320 priests and 16 bishops have so far endorsed a protest petition at www.communionparishes.org — a new Web site based in Colorado Springs, Colo. The site also asks Episcopalians to consider withholding contributions from the national denomination and liberal dioceses.

The protesters style themselves as "continuing" Episcopalians, people who want to preserve the denomination’s tradition and the beliefs of a vast majority of the world’s Anglicans.

When it comes to potential property fights, one important factor is that those who opposed the Rev. V. Gene Robinson’s election as New Hampshire bishop were a minority among Episcopal bishops and convention delegates.

That will be a crucial point for Episcopal liberals, because secular courts avoid taking sides in doctrinal squabbles and do not second-guess churches’ internal decision-making.

However, another line of church property cases relies on neutral principles of contract law, which could give conservatives leverage to keep property in some situations, depending on parish documents, state laws and the statutes of local Episcopal dioceses.

In the Episcopal Church’s first notable schism, the 1873 creation of the evangelical Reformed Episcopal Church, defectors generally were allowed to keep their buildings.

But in the 1970s, Episcopal leaders played hardball against opponents of women priests and revisions in the Book of Common Prayer. Few of those who quit, eventually forming 40 small denominations, held their properties.

During those conflicts, the 1979 Episcopal convention added a church law specifying that all assets of a congregation are "held in trust for this church and the diocese thereof." That’s now a major weapon for church headquarters, though Pittsburgh attorney Robert G. Devlin thinks it’s debatable whether the law binds congregations that existed before 1979.

Devlin, an Episcopalian, is the attorney for the Anglican Mission in America, established by overseas Anglican archbishops in 2000 to gather Episcopal dissenters. Only one of its 55 congregations has been able to leave the Episcopal Church with its property.

Washington attorney David Booth Beers, chancellor (legal adviser) to the Episcopal Church’s presiding bishop, had no comment on property law. He also declined to recommend other experts, perhaps reflecting headquarters’ strategy or its edginess about property arguments.

Over the years, when bishops have allowed Episcopalians to leave with their buildings, it was only "when the cost of fighting was greater than the value of the property," says Michael F. Rehill, former chancellor of the Newark (N.J.) Diocese.

Rehill thinks a split now over Robinson makes no sense, because the Episcopal Church set its policy seven years ago when a church court ruled there was no doctrinal barrier to openly gay clergy and the denomination let that decision stand. Rehill was the defense attorney for a bishop in that landmark case.

But what if a whole conservative diocese decided to leave the Episcopal Church? Rehill says a diocese simply cannot do that, and litigation would halt any attempt.

But Nalls argues that the law on the relationship between the diocese and national church is unclear. "This is new territory," he says. "It’s going to be a lawyers’ field day."

Some think a major split in the denomination would actually decrease the chances of extended court battles.

David Kalvelage, executive editor of The Living Church, an independent Episcopal weekly that opposes gay bishops, says both sides would want to avoid spending time and money on legal fights.

Nalls agrees that unless the two sides "talk turkey and broker a divorce," lawyers will reap millions of dollars and there will be little left worth fighting over.

And Devlin thinks numerous property fights would also make the Episcopal Church look bad. "Are we trying to advance the kingdom of God, or trying to just preserve our bricks and mortar?" he asks.

———

On the Net:

Episcopal Church: http://www.episcopalchurch.org
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2003, 09:21:28 AM »

Quote
During those conflicts, the 1979 Episcopal convention added a church law specifying that all assets of a congregation are "held in trust for this church and the diocese thereof." That’s now a major weapon for church headquarters, though Pittsburgh attorney Robert G. Devlin thinks it’s debatable whether the law binds congregations that existed before 1979.

If there is a split, it will involve whole departing dioceses. The canons don't give a good answer for that, and the battle will go all over the place. The mess described here involves the dioceses that don't leave but that have a lot of conservative parishes-- Washington and Maryland, to name two. The liberals are betting that there won't be a split at all, and failing that, they're betting that people will continue to go to their local Episcopal Church anyway. If they're right, then they will certainly win a large part of the property battles. If not, who knows? Maybe they'll fill them up with dissident Catholics.
Logged
Hypo-Ortho
Guest
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2003, 09:50:23 AM »

Keble<< Maybe they'll fill them up with dissident Catholics.>>

Keble, of course you are joking.  Do you really think that even dissident Catholics are desperate enough to consider (P)ECUSA membership after all this?

Hypo-Ortho
Logged
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2003, 10:14:35 AM »

<<Keble, of course you are joking.  Do you really think that even dissident Catholics are desperate enough to consider (P)ECUSA membership after all this?>>

ROFL. Then they wouldn't be Catholics.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,393


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2003, 06:48:44 PM »

ROFL. Then they wouldn't be Catholics.

But are dissident Catholics still Catholic, even if they are still technically "in the Church"?
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,421


« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2003, 07:39:58 PM »

ROFL. Then they wouldn't be Catholics.

But are dissident Catholics still Catholic, even if they are still technically "in the Church"?

Who the heck knows (sorry, no offense to the Catholics here)?  My impression is that people who label themselves the ever ubiquitous 'lapsed Catholic' don't seem to want to admit whether or not they've really 'left the Church'.
Logged
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2003, 09:33:26 PM »

Dissident Catholics go down in history's rubble heap of lies!
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2003, 08:50:09 AM »

Keble<< Maybe they'll fill them up with dissident Catholics.>>

Keble, of course you are joking.  Do you really think that even dissident Catholics are desperate enough to consider (P)ECUSA membership after all this?

Since a heck of a lot of the dissidence is over sexuality and procreation, it wouldn't surprise me a bit. In the USA, in particular, the scandal of an ostensibly celibate clergy which seems to care more about covering up for its own sins than about expressing any sort of understanding of the way "normal" people live-- this makes dissidence easy and common.
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #83 on: August 23, 2003, 09:59:55 AM »

I have a question.

Don't the ECUSA and the ELCA have some sort of agreement (intercommunion or something)?

How does the furor over the consecration of Robinson affect that?

Is the ELCA balking?

From what I have seen of the ELCA parishes in my area, I don't expect it will. The ELCA is pretty far gone down the same path that ECUSA has trod.

Last Sept. 11 a big local ELCA parish had a 911 commemoration that featured a Moslem reading from the Koran in the church.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #84 on: August 23, 2003, 11:00:24 AM »

I have a question.

Don't the ECUSA and the ELCA have some sort of agreement (intercommunion or something)?

How does the furor over the consecration of Robinson affect that?

It's a good question, and I don't have a good answer.

The Concordat has always been a bit tenuous on the ELCA side, largely because they ended up making all the concessions (and didn't like doing so).  There's been very little public comment from the Lutheran side. My suspicion is that their hierarchy is afraid that they will simply fly apart if anyone makes any clear commitment.
Logged
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #85 on: August 23, 2003, 11:06:25 AM »

Humanae Vitae forever!
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.119 seconds with 67 queries.