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Author Topic: Episcopal General Convention is This Week  (Read 10347 times) Average Rating: 0
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Keble
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« on: July 28, 2003, 12:47:24 PM »

Please keep us in your prayers.
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Daniel AJ
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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2003, 07:12:49 PM »

May the Holy Spirit guide your General Convention and your Church leaders!

"O Heavenly King, the comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who art everywhere present and fillest all things.  Treasury of blessings and giver of life, come and abide in us, and cleanse us our impurities, and save our souls O Good One."

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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2003, 10:57:41 AM »

From my blog (note: inclusion of the websites below does not render endorsement):

For My Anglican Brothers and Sisters, and Other Interested Parties

From the ECUSAn webpage:

The General Convention is the triennial gathering of deputies, bishops, visitors and friends from around the world to consider the state of the church and its work in the world, to be held in Minneapolis from July 30th - August 8th. A significant amount of legislative activity takes place during the convention, but it is the Church gathered for conversation, prayer, worship, thoughtful deliberation and the sharing of views and concerns that makes this extraordinary gathering so powerful and important. In recent years, the General Convention has come together around a theme that to some extent expresses the energies of the church during this period of history. In a church that celebrates so many diverse ideals, cultures, languages and theological perspectives, finding a theme that captures the prevailing mood is difficult. Nevertheless, the call to Engage God’s Mission seems to embody so much of what the Episcopal Church is striving for these days.

Online resources for the upcoming 74th General Convention (2003) of the Episcopal Church in the United States of America.

Official ECUSA site http://www.episcopalchurch.org/gc2003/

Other sites:

Classical Anglican Net News http://www.prayerbook.ca/gc2003/index.htm (traditional)
The American Anglican Council's "A Place to Stand" site http://www.aplacetostand.org/ (evangelical and traditional)
David Virtue's site http://orthodoxanglican.org/virtuosity/ (conservative)
Integrity USA http://www.integrityusa.org/gc2003/index.htm (LGBT activist)
Louie Crew's site http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/gc.html (another LGBT activist)
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Clifton D. Healy
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Keble
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2003, 07:47:33 PM »

Gene Robinson got the necessary consents in the house of deputies. It's now up to the bishops.
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TomS
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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2003, 08:52:44 PM »


Really now, did you expect a different outcome?  Huh

A final vote of 128 to 63 certainly cannot be considered a close vote.

It is readily apparent from past actions that the bishops do not have the backbone to stand up against the laity, and that they long ago forgot that their PRIMARY duty as bishops is to PROTECT the church against the worldly ideas of the laity. Thereby upholding the scriptures and keeping the church on the "straight and narrow"

Christ and his teaching are simply becoming "rules to live by" for this church.

With all due respect Keble, don't you think that it is time to vote with your feet and leave this new-age church? You and your family have an open invitation from Niki and I to join us at St. Sophia anytime!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2003, 09:20:37 PM by TomS » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2003, 10:55:30 PM »

As has been widely reported, Robinson has passed two of the three votes necessary to confirm his election.  The House of Bishops will vote tomorrow afternoon.  It is clear, based on public comments, that Robinson's election will be confirmed by the Bishops.

Furthermore, a "compromise" resolution on approval of rites for same sex unions similarly passed executive committe by unanimous voice vote.  Its next stop is also the House of Bishops.  The new resolution will draw up rites for inclusion in the supplemental liturgical texts of Enriching Our Worship, and will be up to individual dioceses to implement or not.

It will be to no one's suprise that both these votes will receive confirmation from the bishops (and presumably the same-sex rites go after that to the deputies--but I'm unclear on GenCon procedures).

By the end of the week, ECUSA will have thumbed her nose at the rest of the Anglican Communion and all her ecumenical partners (save the United Church of Christ).

I suppose that's something to be proud of.

Color me disgusted by the whole farce.
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Keble
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2003, 08:20:46 AM »


Really now, did you expect a different outcome?  Huh

A final vote of 128 to 63 certainly cannot be considered a close vote.

Well, that's not what the vote was. Voting in the house of deputies, on important issues, is one of the more obscure systems out there. Someone has added two separate votes together and counted them wrongly to begin with.

I believe that the crucial vote was actually 63 consents vs. 54 needed.  "Divideds" are actually counted as "nos",; either the clergy or the laity can fail to pass, in which case the proposition fails.

Quote
It is readily apparent from past actions that the bishops do not have the backbone to stand up against the laity, and that they long ago forgot that their PRIMARY duty as bishops is to PROTECT the church against the worldly ideas of the laity.

Tom, I don't think you understand the dynamics of the situation.

Mainline Protestant bodies don't work this way. Innovations come from the clergy, not from the laity; typically it's the laity who are holding the clergy-- and especially the bishops-- in check.

See, that's the downside of episcopal polity. The Episcopal Church has a polity at GC which is half episcopal and half presbyterian. It is the presbyterian side which prevents the church from running completely amok. If our polity looked like Orthodox church polity, the Episcopal church would have had women clergy in the '60s and homosexual marriages in the '80s. They would have been chucked out of the communion, of course, but the bishops, like a bunch Old Calendarists, would not have cared (except for having lost influence on the rest of the world), because they would have been "RIGHT".

It is the laity (and to a lesser extent, the lower clergy) who have held them in check. I'm going to guess that the vote in the House of Bishops is going to heavily favor Robinson, because that has been the pattern.

I think you are believing in an immunity in your own situation that is less real than you imagine. It takes no leap of deduction to surmise that some Orthodox church in the USA will eventually take the same steps that are being taken in the ECUSA. They will, of course, cease to be "Orthodox", bu the fact is that as soon as the bishops cease to discipline each other, your churches have no restraint to hold them back.

Quote
With all due respect Keble, don't you think that it is time to vote with your feet and leave this new-age church? You and your family have an open invitation from Niki and I to join us at St. Sophia anytime!

Well, if it came to that, I'd go to St. Nick's first-- they know me there and the music is, after all, Russian.

Besides, voting with your feet is so---- Baptist. Where's your sense of polity?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2003, 08:49:37 AM by Keble » Logged
TomS
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2003, 09:03:36 AM »

Tom, I don't think you understand the dynamics of the situation.

Mainline Protestant bodies don't work this way. Innovations come from the clergy, not from the laity; typically it's the laity who are holding the clergy-- and especially the bishops-- in check.

You are right, Keble. I am sure that I don't fully understand the dynamics of the situation. But since when has THAT ever stopped me from spouting off!  Wink  However, my experiance with the Baptists is that they don't operate this way.

I think you are believing in an immunity in your own situation that is less real than you imagine. It takes no leap of deduction to surmise that some Orthodox church in the USA will eventually take the same steps that are being taken in the ECUSA. They will, of course, cease to be "Orthodox", but the fact is that as soon as the bishops cease to discipline each other, your churches have no restraint to hold them back.

Okay. But what's your point? IF and when that does happen I would be out the door in a SECOND!

It is very clear that scripture condemns this behavior. If you stick around and continue to support this church, then whether you like it or not, you are also supporting this position.

Well, if it came to that, I'd go to St. Nick's first-- they know me there and the music is, after all, Russian.

I don't blame you. I would like to go there myself!

But seriously, Keble. What will it take for you to finally accept the fact that this church has cast its lot with the prince of this world?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2003, 09:24:25 AM by TomS » Logged
Keble
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2003, 11:01:44 AM »

I think you are believing in an immunity in your own situation that is less real than you imagine. It takes no leap of deduction to surmise that some Orthodox church in the USA will eventually take the same steps that are being taken in the ECUSA. They will, of course, cease to be "Orthodox", but the fact is that as soon as the bishops cease to discipline each other, your churches have no restraint to hold them back.

Okay. But what's your point? IF and when that does happen I would be out the door in a SECOND!

And then you would be a Protestant; voting with your feet is Baptist polity at its most pure.

At any rate, the point is that a lot of Anglicans are quite obviously using Orthodoxy as a place to hide. I don't think this is a good thing, but that's just me, I suppose.

Quote
It is very clear that scripture condemns this behavior. If you stick around and continue to support this church, then whether you like it or not, you are also supporting this position.

And when the State of Maryland starts giving out marraige licenses to homosexuals, are you going to move? We can't all live in Texas!

I reject this theory of implicit support. A church is not an association of like-minded people.

Quote
Well, if it came to that, I'd go to St. Nick's first-- they know me there and the music is, after all, Russian.

I don't blame you. I would like to go there myself!

But seriously, Keble. What will it take for you to finally accept the fact that this church has cast its lot with the prince of this world?

Well, I'm at least going to wait until the end of general convention.
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TomS
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2003, 12:21:35 PM »

And then you would be a Protestant; voting with your feet is Baptist polity at its most pure.

No I would not. Are the members of ROCOR not Orthodox simply because they are not in communion with the Greeks, Antiochians, etc?  They are still Orthodox.

At any rate, the point is that a lot of Anglicans are quite obviously using Orthodoxy as a place to hide. I don't think this is a good thing, but that's just me, I suppose.

Why do you think it is hiding when you no longer agree with the positions of your church and feel that in good conscience that you can no longer support it nor worship in it?

And when the State of Maryland starts giving out marraige licenses to homosexuals, are you going to move? We can't all live in Texas!

C'mon Keble, I am not talking about the secular laws of THIS world. That analogy does not apply at all.
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Keble
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2003, 02:58:27 PM »

Worship is a very different matter. But a homosexual bishop in Vermont is not an immediate impediment to my worship. I'm far more concerned about other issues.
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2003, 03:09:31 PM »

Quote
And then you would be a Protestant; voting with your feet is Baptist polity at its most pure.

The citizens of Constantinople abandoned the majority of Churches in the city a number of times because heretics were in them, and I'm sure this has happened in other cities as well. I'm not for abandoning ship at the first sign of an iceberg (or even if struck by an iceberg), but at some point you might be safer jumping than sitting where you are.
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TomS
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2003, 04:00:50 PM »


"What binds us together is our faith," said Robinson, a 56-year-old divorced father of two. "We should not hold any one issue above or higher than our commitment to Jesus Christ."

GIVE ME A BREAK!!! Does he make these comments with a straight face?

Also --

"MINNEAPOLIS  — Episcopal Church (search) leaders delayed a vote Monday on whether to confirm the church's first openly gay bishop after allegations involving "touching" and "pornography" emerged against the clergyman."

So then, this is how they are going to deal with it; by NOT dealing with it.

They can then say that they did not approve him because of these "other" issues - and certainly not because he is gay.
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Keble
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2003, 04:52:48 PM »

Well, that's one way to interpret it, maybe.

The website allegations apparently have been bouncing around for a while. I don't know what to think of them because I'm at the office and cannot investigate them. The other allegations were sent in by e-mail today. There's obviously no way they can be adequately investigated in ten days-- or maybe ever-- unless they can be found to be patently false. If they are proven false, I can't see how it would but help Robinson.

Even if they don't give Robinson his consents, there are these other issues to deal with anyway.
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2003, 04:53:06 PM »

From my blog today:


ECUSA GenCon 03: Vote on Robinson Indefinitely Delayed

Breaking news from MSNBC saying, http://www.msnbc.com/news/947847.asp?0cv=CA01

Vote on first gay bishop delayed:
_______________

Episcopal bishops indefinitely postponed their vote Monday on whether to approve the church's first openly gay elected bishop after allegations of pornography and inappropriate conduct arose.

THE ADVANCEMENT OF the Rev. V. Gene Robinson to bishop of the Diocese of New Hampshire had been approved Sunday by the church's House of Deputies, a legislative body composed of clergy and lay people, setting the stage for Monday's final vote by the 106-member House of Bishops.
Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold postponed the final vote Monday afternoon, saying in a statement that he had appointed the bishop of Western Massachusetts, the Rev. Gordon B. Scruton, to investigate "questions [that] have been raised and brought to my attention regarding the bishop elect."

Griswold said nothing about the nature of the allegations, but Reuters said it had obtained a copy of an e-mail message that was sent to Bishop Thomas Ely of Vermont from a man identified as David Lewis, accusing Robinson of being a "skirt-chaser" who fondled him two years ago.

"My personal experience with him is he does not maintain appropriate boundaries with men. I believe this is an alarming weakness of character that alone makes Gene unsuitable for the office of bishop," said the note, which was dated Sunday.
______________

The remainder of the article can be read at the above link.
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2003, 07:47:10 PM »

I have to think there is something fishy about this. Heaven help us if this is "shown" to be a ploy of the conservatives.
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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2003, 08:22:07 PM »

For once, I agree with you, Keble!  ;-)

One would hope this man is not so stupid as to throw out into one of the most public runnings for episcopal office ever a baseless charge.  But, then again, Jerry Springer is testimony to the depthlessness of human stupidity.

It seems that this email came out on Sunday (before the HOD vote?), so it wasn't as if the bishops sat down to vote on Robinson then, "I say, what's this?  An allegation?"  And give Robinson supporters credit, they know that allegations such as these by real victims come out at the last minute.  Robinson supporters admit this, and some (Hopkins) seem to be taking it seriously.  Others (Solheim) are clearly contemptuous of the charges.
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Clifton D. Healy
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« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2003, 10:05:51 PM »

". . . Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?" (Luke 18:Cool.

Quote
From Keble: I think you are believing in an immunity in your own situation that is less real than you imagine. It takes no leap of deduction to surmise that some Orthodox church in the USA will eventually take the same steps that are being taken in the ECUSA. They will, of course, cease to be "Orthodox", bu the fact is that as soon as the bishops cease to discipline each other, your churches have no restraint to hold them back.

IMHO, the Holy Spirit is preserving the Holy Orthodox Church from the type of corruption that has infected the ECUSA. But the Scriptures and the Fathers do indicate that as this age draws to a close the situation will worsen. Evil will run rampant and the love of many will wax cold. There will be false teachers everywhere - even inside the Church.

Yet Christ has promised that the very gates of hell will not prevail against His Church and that He will always be with her. He will preserve a faithful remnant that will constitute the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

In that day, those of us who stand firm for the true Faith will be regarded as narrow-minded, homophobic, male-chauvinist bigots; we will be viewed as ignorant, superstitious, sexually-inhibited lunatics. We will be considered dangerous.The Church will be persecuted and many will perish for the faith. The world will be a dark dark place. Only those who endure to the end will be saved.

We should take a lesson from what is happening in the ECUSA. We should take it as a dire warning.

This despite the fact that as Orthodox we can only regard the Anglican communion as a group that split from another group (the RCC) that had already been separated from the true Church for about 500 years.
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Keble
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2003, 01:48:39 PM »

Sorry, Linus, but this doesn't sound like a humble opinion to me.

I've looked around at the various news sources and gotten a bit more detail. The business about the website was brought forth by the American Anglican Council (conservative umbrella group). The sense seems to be that it isn't going to matter in the end; the connection is too tenuous to be pushed without a lot of debate (which there is really no time for). The allegation was e-mailed to a large group of bishops (not clear exactly to whom, other than the current diocesan of Vermont). Everyone is being extremely guarded about this; the ENS website has not been updated since Sunday evening.

The most important consequence is that the order of voting on issues is almost certainly going to be changed. They are now going to have to vote on same-sex marriages first, with the stakes considerably raised. Before, it was likely that a walkout over Robinson's consents would tip the balance quite plainly; now that is not so sure. For the record, I still would bet they get approved. If they are approved, the walkout may be much larger. The Africans will certainly excommunicate the Episcopal Church and I'd bet on Cantuar going for the the Africans.

If they don't approve them, then it's going to be an interesting three years.....
« Last Edit: August 05, 2003, 01:55:42 PM by Keble » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2003, 02:13:11 PM »

... The Africans will certainly excommunicate the Episcopal Church and I'd bet on Cantuar going for the the Africans.

What happens then? Do we have the same church with the same name, but not in "communion" with each other? This all very confusing.
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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2003, 02:40:34 PM »

From CNN -

MINNEAPOLIS  — The investigation into misconduct allegations against a priest seeking to become the Episcopal Church's (search) first openly gay bishop has concluded, and a vote on his confirmation will take place late in the afternoon, the head of the church said Tuesday.

Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold said in a brief statement that the bishop leading the inquiry would report later Tuesday on the results of his preliminary investigation and a vote would be taken. Griswold did not comment further.

The results of the vote by the House of Bishops was expected to be announced at around 6 p.m. EDT.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2003, 02:54:54 PM by TomS » Logged
Keble
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« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2003, 03:03:27 PM »

What happens is that we become more Orthodox!!  Roll Eyes

It has been all but announced that there will be a walkout; presumably the delegations from the dioceses will leave with their bishops. After that, the scenarios begin to grow in number but for the sake of argument, let's assume that those leaving manage to stay united. They will then set up their own church organization and presumably select a presiding bishop.

The Africans will certainly recognize them as a church, up to and including the exchange of clergy. I'm guessing that Cantuar will recognize them too and will start issuing ultimatums to the remaining American church to resolve this problem or get expelled. Technically this can run on for several years because the critical test-- the Lambeth Conference-- is six years off. If Cantuar refuses to recognize them, then the Africans will disavow him and there will be two distinct communions.

Meanwhile, there will be a mammoth legal battle. I'm guessing that the focus of the battle will be the Diocese of Quincy because it is the smallest and thus has the fewest resources to defend itself with. It's an open legal question because the corporate structure of the Episcopal Church is really wierd; the dioceses and the national church are distinct corporations and the national church doesn't legally own the dioceses. I suspect that the departing bishops will be deposed in absentia but it's unclear that this is going to have any real legal effect; I don't think the canons provide for replacing the whole nominating process.

In the end I would suspect that the remaining Episcopal Church would become an Anglican body outside the communion but not fully separate. If there is a split within the walkout (e.g. the three bishops who do not ordain women cannot remain with those who do ordain women) then it will get very much more of a mess.
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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2003, 03:23:30 PM »

I have quickly run through the major news services-- ABC, CBS, NBC, BBC, CNN-- and the reports are somewhat contradictory. It is unclear whether the bishops are voting today or not. I see that Solheim (the director of ENS) is saying that they wouldn't be proceeding if Robinson hadn't been cleared. Apparently something is going to be announced at about 6 pm but it's unclear that they are actually about to vote.

Most are going with an AP wire story which contains some inaccuracies (what's new?). The Wash. Post story indicates that it isn't clear what's going to happen other than that they are presumably going to have a vote at GC rather than later. (They have someone in Minneapolis.) They explain the Solheim remark better.
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« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2003, 04:40:34 PM »

As of 4 PM EDT, CNN is reporting that a vote has been taken, but the results have not been announced.

A group of conservatives (not stated exactly who, but one has to assume the Truro signatories) has said that if Robinson is elected they will go across the street to a Lutheran church for prayer and to state what they intend to do.
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« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2003, 04:42:28 PM »

Should be a dicey evening.
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2003, 09:29:22 PM »

Well, they've done it.

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From Keble: Sorry, Linus, but this doesn't sound like a humble opinion to me.

I think what you mean is you did not like what I had to say. That's fine, but there was nothing unhumble or arrogant in what I posted.
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2003, 09:36:30 PM »


Yep. And church spokesman Daniel England called the approval "an important step for the church."  --- Sure was - right off the cliff.

"In comments after the vote, Bishop Robert Duncan of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, spoke for those opposed to Robinson's approval, saying "This body has denied the plain teaching of Scripture and the moral consensus of the church throughout the ages. and has divided itself from millions of Anglican Christians throughout the world. May God have mercy on his church" Duncan concluded.

With all due respect, Bishop Duncan is confused -- it is readily apparent to me, as it should be to him, that this church CAN NOT BE God's church. Because as the Lord said: "The gates of hell shall not prevail" against HIS church!

« Last Edit: August 05, 2003, 09:46:46 PM by TomS » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2003, 10:15:41 PM »

Well put, Tom. This is something that would happen in Congress, not a church. May God have mercy on us all.

Matt
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« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2003, 11:33:53 AM »

Regarding the recent election to the office of "bishop" of Canon Robinson:


Here's the NO votes in the House of Bishops:

Alabama
Albany
Central Florida
Central Gulf Coast
Colombia
Dallas
Dominican Republic
East Carolina
East Tennesee
Eau Claire
Ecuador (Abstention counted as NO)
Florida
Georgia
Haiti
Honduras
Louisiana
Missippi
Nebraska
North Dakota
Northern Indiana
Northwest Texas
Northwestern Pennsylvania
Pittsburgh
Quincy
Rio Grande
San Diego
San Joaquin
South Carolina
Southern Ohio
Southwest Virginia
Southwest Florida
Springfield
Taiwan
Tennessee
Texas
Upper South Carolina
Virgin Islands
West Tennessee
West Texas
West Virginia
Western Kansas
Western Louisiana
Western Massachusetts (Abstention counted as NO)

Here's what's interesting about some of these NO votes:

East Tennessee
Northwest Texas
Southern Ohio
Southwest Virginia
and Tennessee

all voted AGAINST a united House of Deputies vote. These bishops went against the will of the laity and the lesser clergy of their diocese. Courage.

On the other hand, here's what's interesting about these YES votes

Churches in Europe (Griswold) voted against divided votes in both orders in his diocese
Colorado and Oklahoma voted against united NO votes for their dioceses' deputies
In North Carolina, Puerto Rico and West Missouri, all the orders of clergy voted YES over the laity
Southeast Florida voted YES though the clergy said NO and the laity was DIVIDED

Thanks to Integrity VA for this info.

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« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2003, 01:02:37 PM »

Thanks for the info, CD. Virtuosity had the deputy's votes but not the bishop's.

It's striking how similar the tallies were in the two houses. Usually one would expect the lay deputies to register a much more conservative vote than the bishops.

The Balto. Sun reports that the delegation from my diocese voted uniformly YES (not that I'm surprised, though there was some question as to whether my bishop would vote for it).
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« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2003, 03:19:29 PM »

Forgive me for jumping in on all this.  But, all I think of after following this in the secular news as well as what has been posted  is this:

God, please have Mercy on your church!

In my spiritual pilgrimage there was a time that I  considered myself a "closet Anglican".  I do not boast but  am proud (in a right way) to say that I am  a conservative evangelical believer (a regular attender and very active in leadership roles)  who has been on a s-l-o-w but steady road heading toward the East.  I've worshiped off and on  with my Episcopal brothers, moved on to Rome, worshipping off and on  and in more recent times have worshiped with my Orthodox brothers and sisters.  I must say that I "feel" at home with the Orthodox church.  Still not "there" yet, but perhaps someday,  if it is God's will.  

 As I look back to what is happening within the ECUSA , my heart aches! Oh, how it hurts!    

Please, Holy God have Mercy on us.  I pray for those bishops, priests, men and women in the ECUSA who are taking a stand for what is right and will bring honor to Your Son, Jesus Christ.  May Your Holy Spirit protect and  comfort the faithful through this dark hour.

I am a sinner in need of His Mercy and Grace.

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« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2003, 05:14:20 PM »

It has just come over the AP wire that there was a walkout at GC today. I don't know much more than this.
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« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2003, 08:45:22 PM »


Don't get your hopes up.

Better check to see if it is just Robinson and his supporters. If so, then maybe it is just a "ladies night out"!

 Shocked  :bounce:   :cwm32:   Grin  Tongue

(Sorry, I just couldn't resist)
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« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2003, 08:27:41 AM »

Stories this morning about the "unions" vote are confusing and thus far it isn't clear to me exactly what was approved. The AP wire story seems clearest and suggests that the main resolution was quashed by the bishops and that a token "status quo" resolution was passed as a sop to the homosexual lobby.

A lot of the news sources-- including Virtuosity-- ignored the vote entirely. It seems clear from several sources that there was a smallish walkout, that a large group stayed away from the daily eucharist and worshipped separately in a Presbyterian church, and that a bunch of the bishops have stopped voting. (That means all their votes are recorded as "no", in essence.) One of the bishops is quoted in beliefnet as having asked Cantuar for a second province in the USA. A meeting is scheduled fo the first week of October in Texas for the consevatives.
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« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2003, 10:05:56 AM »

The text of the HOB resolution is here:

http://www.aplacetostand.org/dspnews.cfm?id=57


Essentially what has happened with this legislation is that it gives official sanction of what already obtains in ECUSA: local option.  It is now "okay" for individual dioceses to do their own their regarding same-sex unions, which means that dioceses that do it and create their own liturgies are approved.

There's also some stuff about creating resources, and what not, but the gist: ECUSA officially approves of same-sex unions.
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« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2003, 10:07:32 AM »

Sorry.  Posted too quick.

I should clarify that the national church will not be creating rites for same-sex unions.  But this is, to me, a dodge.  They've okayed them with this resolution.

It now passes to the HOD, where it will pass--especially since about a hundred deputies walked out yesterday.
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« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2003, 11:02:33 AM »

I've read the resolution, and it isn't clear that it authorizes anything; it merely seems to aknowledge that "local option" was already happening. You can read this in a lot of different ways, of course, depending upon your prejudices. I read it as essentially a empty gesture; if it hadn't been passed, it wouldn't make any difference. The deputies will pass it, of course, precisely because it represents no particular commitment.  Tongue
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« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2003, 11:11:44 AM »

There may be more comments tonight [ well after tonight is over Wink ] on

http://www.holycross.net/daily.htm

This has been posted by one of the participating clergy - makes for interesting reading !
 
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« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2003, 11:12:17 AM »

The relevant part reads thus:

That, we recognize that local faith communities are operating within the bounds of our common life as they explore and experience liturgies celebrating and blessing same-sex unions.

This explicitly says, you can be part of our common life (that is, Christian) and still bless same-sex unions.  This is most explicitly approval of same-sex unions.
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« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2003, 11:23:12 AM »

The relevant part reads thus:

That, we recognize that local faith communities are operating within the bounds of our common life as they explore and experience liturgies celebrating and blessing same-sex unions.

This explicitly says, you can be part of our common life (that is, Christian) and still bless same-sex unions.  This is most explicitly approval of same-sex unions.


How does this make the (P)ECUSA any different than the mostly gay MCC (Metropolitan Community Churches) in this area then?  The MCC states basically the same thing.  An ordained MCC "deacon" resident in my apartment building is joyously "gushing" over the ECUSA General Convention happenings.  Maybe it's time for the ECUSA and the MCC to merge?   Roll Eyes Tongue

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« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2003, 12:39:14 PM »

My point is that it doesn't say that. It allows of a variety of interpretations. The conflicting stories in the morning papers attest to this; the Washington Post story, if not read extremely carefully, gives the impression that the bishops passed the deputies' resolution, whereas the Boston Globe story makes it sound as though they voted the whole thing down.

It has to be understood that the only way to stop local option is to depose a lot of bishops. That simply can't happen. The "good" liberals want same-sex rites but don't want it to happen the way it's happening now. They want the issue argued out in the open and some sort of comprehensive theological structure behind it. The "bad" liberals don't care-- the important thing is "Justice", and that means giving the homosexual lobby what it wants, right now if possible. The conservatives don't want any of it, but they can't stop local option. The moderates-- well, it's hard to say what they want or don't want, but it seems clear that they don't want to be the vanguard on this and that they also don't want to be put in the position of issuing anything that looks like an anathema. So what we get is a very obscure resolution that everyone (except the conservatives) can spin to their advantage.

It's all becoming moot because the conservatives appear to be preparing for a schism. The radical liberals are pooh-poohing this, but Bishop Iker has already been quoted as having asked Cantuar for a second province. The same set of about 20 names keeps appearing, with Bishop Duncan of Pittsburgh consistently appearing as their spokesman. Cantuar is giving out rather veiled signals but the implication is that the is prepared to do what it takes to keep the communion from being torn up by the American church. Nothing is going to happen hastily.
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« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2003, 12:55:17 PM »

Good Lord, Keble! You are like a drowning man clutching at straws.

Go back and read your posts -- you are trying way to hard to convince yourself that this is not as bad as you KNOW it is.


"My point is that it doesn't say that. It allows of a variety of interpretations. "

and prior to that one ...

"I've read the resolution, and it isn't clear that it authorizes anything; it merely seems to aknowledge that "local option" was already happening."

and prior to that ...

"Stories this morning about the "unions" vote are confusing and thus far it isn't clear to me exactly what was approved. "


It's pathetic.

Everyone else seems to know what is going on. Take off your blinders, man!
They are lost.
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« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2003, 01:25:37 PM »

Keble:

Wow.  I am absolutely amazed.  I mean you no disrespect.  Sincerely.  For the life of me I can't see how you fail to grasp the clear, uninterpreted, unspun wording of the resolution.  Really.  I can't.  It's so obvious.  It's public, official, out and out approval of those who bless same-sex unions.  There's no condemnation; no clarification.  It says quite explicitly that dioceses who do these unions are okay.  This is approval.  This is official.  I fail to see how it could be viewed otherwise.

But as I respect you and your views, I would be happen to listen as to how you explain that this is not approval.

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« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2003, 01:30:24 PM »

Tom, you are simply doing what this resolution is designed to allow: spinning the situation to your taste. You want a totally apostate Epsicopal Church, so that's what you see. My bishop wants to see a church which wants to move forward, but hesitantly, so that what he has it saying. The radicals want to see it as a rubber stamp to do as they please, so that's how they read it. It is an empty compromise that doesn't really have any effect on the status quo. Your interpretation of it as a clear statement is belied by the differing interpretations that are being promulgated; if it wre a clear statement, there wouldn't be all these differences. It's not a clear statement and it wasn't intended to be one.
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« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2003, 01:39:29 PM »

Tom, you are simply doing what this resolution is designed to allow: spinning the situation to your taste. You want a totally apostate Epsicopal Church, so that's what you see. My bishop wants to see a church which wants to move forward, but hesitantly, so that what he has it saying. The radicals want to see it as a rubber stamp to do as they please, so that's how they read it. It is an empty compromise that doesn't really have any effect on the status quo. Your interpretation of it as a clear statement is belied by the differing interpretations that are being promulgated; if it wre a clear statement, there wouldn't be all these differences. It's not a clear statement and it wasn't intended to be one.


So anyone can interpret this whichever way they want in the ECUSA, and it's okay?  Part of the trendy ECUSA's hallmark of all-inclusiveness, everything and anything goes, Keble?  Keep it blurred and gray, is that it?  Unbelievable!!!   Roll Eyes Shocked

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« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2003, 02:45:44 PM »

Keble:

I'm afraid you're missing one very important point.  Yes, the resolution in one respect merely continues what has been going on for some time, that of local option.  But what is far more significant, ECUSA will have, by convention's end, said in official terms that this present state is okay.  And by so doing, they will have approved of same-sex unions.
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« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2003, 03:40:03 PM »

Keble:

I'm afraid you're missing one very important point.  Yes, the resolution in one respect merely continues what has been going on for some time, that of local option.  But what is far more significant, ECUSA will have, by convention's end, said in official terms that this present state is okay.  And by so doing, they will have approved of same-sex unions.

Well, other people would say that the resolution states that the present state is not OK. It is worded to mean all things to all people; you seem to want it to mean that the ECUSA accepts these unions as a body and that its members submit to that approval. If that is what it is supposed to say, then why doesn't it say that? It doesn't say the latter because that's not the way Anglicanism works; it doesn't say the former because, obviously, a resolution that did say that couldn't be passed.

The only real significance of the solution to me personally is the possibility that it means that the conservatives may take more of the church with them than just themselves. I fully realize that this is a hope rather than a conclusion. But your black-and-white reading of this reflects you, rather than the church which you (more than anyone else here) should know is not a church of blacks and whites.
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« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2003, 03:47:45 PM »

I think it is sad if a Church can't make simple "yes/no" statements on questions of morality.

anastasios
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« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2003, 04:17:49 PM »

Anyway guys, I think our pushing Keble is for nought at the moment. He will not join the Orthodox church until he is convinced, heart and mind, that it truley is the visible church founded by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If he and his wife need a shove, it needs to come, not from us, but from the Holy Spirit.

Keble, you and your wife are in my prayers. The Episcopal church seems to suit you in that apart from all the mess you feel most comfortable there. Just understand that our salvation has nothing to do with us feeling comfortable and a great deal to do with humility. My first years in the Orthodox church were anything but comfortable, but I knew it was where I had to be. I hope you come to the same understanding soon.

God bless you.

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« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2003, 04:24:37 PM »

Thank you, prodromos, for your words of understanding. At this point there is little further to be said about the "decisions" of the ECUSA GC. The conservatives will meet; it is said there will be an extraordinary meeting of primates. Until then, I will be watchifully waitng, and praying, and considering.
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« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2003, 04:46:55 PM »

Keble:

Yes, indeed, having gone to Seabury-Western Theological Seminary, I know quite a bit about "black-and-white."

The thing I find surprising is that in all--and I mean all--the news accounts I've read with regard to this resolution from both conservatives and liberals is that this resolutions makes it okay that same-sex unions get blessed.

But clearly there is something getting in the way of your recognizing what I and many others recognize as clear language.

Prodromos reminds me that I may have descended into "pushing" you, and that I regret.  So I'll not continue to assert what I take to be the clarity of the resolution, its intent and its consequences.

Please accept my apologies if my pressing this matter has offended you.
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« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2003, 03:18:01 AM »

I think what has happened to the Episcopal Church is a good example of the great problem with Protestantism as a whole. All of it, whether it's "conservative" or "liberal" or "evangelical" or "liturgical/traditional" is theologically fluid, every single group with NO exceptions. The fact that the Episcopal Church is backtracking on the original doctrines against homosexuality is no worse than the Southern Baptists denouncing the Sacraments or any other basic doctrine. When even One fundamental doctrine changes, the entire structure of belief becomes vulnerable to what has happened to the Episcopal Church. It is the idea that the truth is one way for one group of Christians and it's different for another group of Christians because the "basics are the same" that causes what just happened. The ENTIRE doctrine is the basics, all of it, together, in unity, unchanged.
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« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2003, 09:52:47 AM »

Well said, Martin.
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« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2003, 02:05:18 PM »

Cantuar has announced that there will be an extraordinary meeting of the Anglican primates in mid-October.
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« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2003, 03:58:02 PM »

Martin, maybe I'm just not getting it , but I do not quit understand what you meant when you said:

"The fact that the Episcopal Church is backtracking on the original doctrines against homosexuality is no worse than the Southern Baptists denouncing the Sacraments or any other basic doctrine."

I'm not a member of either of the two churches mentioned. But ...well.......what do ya mean?!?!

Still hurting and praying  about this whole mess,

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« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2003, 04:56:59 PM »

FROM AP New Service:

The Rev. Francis Wade, head of the liturgical committee that wrote the convention’s document on same-sex ceremonies, said he interpreted the measure to mean that dioceses conducting such ceremonies "are operating within the parameters of the understanding of this church and its doctrine and discipline."

Wade’s explanation marks a reversal from how several bishops viewed the document when they approved it Wednesday. Those bishops had described the statement as only an acknowledgment that same-sex unions are being blessed in local dioceses — not an endorsement.

The Episcopal gay advocacy group Integrity said "we understand the language clearly to give national license" to the ceremonies.

The Rev. Kendall Harmon, a leading conservative who lobbied against the document, said what "seems like a compromise" actually isn’t.

"Let’s be honest. This is authorization," Harmon said. "It sanctions homosexual behavior."


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« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2003, 02:07:33 AM »

Any backtracking on any doctrine is the same evil. My point is that all of the Protestant groups are part of the same hypocrisy. One could say that some are "better" than others, but from an Orthodox perspective, they're all equally wrong because to be Orthodox is to include ALL of the doctrines, whether it's recognizing the Body and Blood of Our Lord, maintaining liturgical worship, or rejecting homosexuality.
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« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2003, 01:03:15 PM »

Any backtracking on any doctrine is the same evil. My point is that all of the Protestant groups are part of the same hypocrisy.

We seem to be backtracking on another doctrine here.....

At any rate, shouldn't this sort of attack belong in the Free-For_All section?
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« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2003, 08:38:32 AM »

Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina leaders want to reject openly gay bishop-elect
CHARLESTON, S.C. (AP) — Leaders of the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina met Monday to discuss what to do next now that the Episcopal Church has approved its first openly gay bishop-elect and affirmed same-sex blessing ceremonies.

Leaders agreed they to want reject the General Convention’s election earlier this month of the Rev. Gene Robinson — who divorced his wife and moved in with a gay man — as bishop coadjutor of New Hampshire.

The South Carolina church leaders asked Bishop Edward L. Salmon Jr. to call a special convention for a formal response to the denomination’s actions, The (Charleston) Post and Courier reported.

The special convention would reject the actions of the General Convention, affirm the diocese’s membership in the Anglican Communion, and appeal to the primates of the Anglican Communion "to intervene in the pastoral crisis" in the Episcopal Church, according to a resolution approved at the meeting.

The 2.4 million-member Episcopal Church is one of the more liberal members of the 77 million-member Anglican Communion. The Diocese of South Carolina was a member of the Anglican Church some 80 years before the Episcopal Church became a separate province.

"I’m embarrassed to call myself an Episcopalian anymore," said the Rev. Haden McCormick of St. Philip’s Episcopal Church, the mother church of the diocese. "I’m an Anglican looking for a home."

The convention would be held sometime before the leaders of the Anglican Communion meet in October to talk about the Episcopal Church.
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« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2003, 09:11:44 AM »

This is rather a bit of faux-news. Everything they have asked for is already going to take place. Bishop Salmon is surely going to be at the Plano meeting, and the prelates are going to meet immediately after. What they don't report is that Salmon sent out a letter to his parishes saying that he would give them all the cooperation they want in preventing money from reaching the national church.

Then there's this passage:

Quote
The 2.4 million-member Episcopal Church is one of the more liberal members of the 77 million-member Anglican Communion. The Diocese of South Carolina was a member of the Anglican Church some 80 years before the Episcopal Church became a separate province.

This makes no sense at all. There was no "Diocese of South Carolina" before the revolution, and no "provinces" either. There were no bishops in the colonies. Someone is spinning furiously.

Salmon may well convene this extraordinary meeting, but it's basically a pep really for what is going to happen anyway.
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« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2003, 10:13:03 AM »

Those guys should just convert to Catholicism and end their misery.

Matt
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« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2003, 10:28:19 AM »

Those guys should just convert to Catholicism and end their misery.

Considering all the Novus Ordo Catholic services I've been to, that would merely be trading one misery for another.
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« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2003, 10:32:40 AM »

Besides, these people are AGAINST Gays as clergy and bishops!

The Catholic Church may be against it "on record" but the reality is quite different.
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« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2003, 10:40:46 AM »

touche
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« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2003, 11:10:43 AM »

Gay marriages and gay bishops in the Catholic Church? Hardly.
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« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2003, 11:17:42 AM »

Keble, some Episcopalian churches have already joined with the Catholic Church and have maintained their venerable liturgies.
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« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2003, 11:33:09 AM »

Frobisher, I don't mean to offend, but here is my take on the Roman Catholic Church:

Long ago (probably around the time of the sacking of Constantinople) the RCC came under the influence and control of the Prince of This World. In my opinion, there is absolutely no other way to explain the despicable acts of this "church" over the centuries. Tell me what "church of God" knowingly shelters numerous pedophiles!

To me it is pretty logical that the Orthodox Church is the true church, simply because Satan let the RCC go out and do as it pleased, while doing all he could to enslave the Orthodox Churches under Islam and then Communism. The RCC, and subsequently Protestantism, is being used to mislead the flock.

You really cannot believe that the RCC DOES NOT knowingly consecrate gay bishops. Of COURSE they do - they just will not admit it. You are probably right that the RCC will not allow gay marriages. Satan is not stupid, he knows that if he did that, that the deception would be more easily exposed.

And I know that many will argure my viewpoint, but it is what I believe.
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« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2003, 11:50:18 AM »

Good points, Tom. Covering up sex abuse is simply wrong, and that's why some are getting the picture. But just because some bishops cover it up doesn't mean the Catholic Church isn't the Church of God. Remember Judas? Remember when 11/12s of the Episcopate apostasized?

However, the recent media attacks on the RCC are simply unfair and hypocritical, considering that in Massachussets in 2000 alone there were 60,000 cases of child abuse compared with the 1000 in the Archdiocese of Boston over 6 decades. Considering that the Catholic Church is the most organized and wealthy, as well as the most adamantly pro-life, it's easy to see why these attacks occur.

TomS "Of COURSE they do - they just will not admit it"

Well, you can't just blantantly throw out such accusations. Stranger things have happened, of course.

You have to ask yourself about the GOC's involvement with the Catholic Church as well. The EP meets with the Pope frequently and lifted the anathemas against the RCC in the 1960s. What about branch theory? Is he under the influence of the evil one too? I don't think so. With all due respect, I think gay marriage and gay bishops are just as likely to occur in the GOA as in the RCC, and I don't think it's very likely in either case.
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« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2003, 12:34:51 PM »

You have to ask yourself about the GOC's involvement with the Catholic Church as well. The EP meets with the Pope frequently and lifted the anathemas against the RCC in the 1960s. What about branch theory? Is he under the influence of the evil one too? I don't think so. With all due respect, I think gay marriage and gay bishops are just as likely to occur in the GOA as in the RCC, and I don't think it's very likely in either case.

I am against the EP meeting with the Pope or ANY non-Orthodox religious leader unless it is for PURELY SECULAR reasons and there are NO religious services or prayers offered during the meeting.

As for Gay marriage and bishops -- absolutely NOT on the Gay marriages. A Gay bishop, etc. -- of course that is possible. The Evil One can always get a lucky punch in every now and again! But, unlike in the RCC, there is not a Gay subculture lurking around within the Orthodox Church that would support him.

And let me say that if ANY of these things happened, then yes, I would consider the GOA to be corrupted and under the influence of the Evil One, and I would search for a more conservative Orthodox Church to attend.
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« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2003, 04:10:05 PM »

Keble, some Episcopalian churches have already joined with the Catholic Church and have maintained their venerable liturgies.

This has basically the same problems that the Antiochian western rite does. It maintains the form of Anglicanism without any of the substance (except that maybe in the RC church they are more likely to turn a blind eye towards our eccentric theology). There are no western rite Antiochian bishops, and there are no Anglican rite RC bishops.

At this point there is no reason for anyone to do anything until the primates meet in October-- at least no reason that wasn't already there a year ago.
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« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2003, 04:23:46 PM »

This has basically the same problems that the Antiochian western rite does. It maintains the form of Anglicanism without any of the substance (except that maybe in the RC church they are more likely to turn a blind eye towards our eccentric theology).

Dear Keble,

I'm sorry if this doesn't sound right, but I don't know how else to ask it.  What, exactly, is the substance of Anglicanism?  It seems to me that Anglicans going over to Roman Catholicism would be retrieving more substance, at least as far as theology goes.
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« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2003, 04:32:51 PM »

But, unlike in the RCC, there is not a Gay subculture lurking around within the Orthodox Church that would support him.

Maybe not a visible subculture......
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« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2003, 04:40:21 PM »

No, Keble. It is not needed because all but Monks can marry.
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« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2003, 04:44:39 PM »

This has basically the same problems that the Antiochian western rite does. It maintains the form of Anglicanism without any of the substance (except that maybe in the RC church they are more likely to turn a blind eye towards our eccentric theology).

Dear Keble,

I'm sorry if this doesn't sound right, but I don't know how else to ask it.  What, exactly, is the substance of Anglicanism?  It seems to me that Anglicans going over to Roman Catholicism would be retrieving more substance, at least as far as theology goes.  

I'm going to take this over to "Other".
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« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2003, 05:29:19 PM »

I'm going to take this over to "Other".


Sounds good to me, Keble.
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« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2003, 08:10:20 AM »

Billions in assets at stake as the Episcopal Church faces a possible breakup
By RICHARD N. OSTLING

AP Religion Writer

The 7,364 congregations of the Episcopal Church receive $2.14 billion in offerings a year: Their buildings and liquid assets are worth untold billions.

Add it up and suddenly much more is at stake than spiritual matters if the church splits over the Episcopal General Convention’s approval of an openly gay bishop. Both conservatives and liberals are beginning to ponder the prospect of drawn-out, messy financial squabbles.

"This could be the biggest church real estate sale in history," says the Rev. Charles Nalls of the Washington-based Canon Law Institute.

Nalls, who recently quit the denomination because he felt it was getting too liberal, says about 100 aggrieved congregations have asked his institute for advice about possible withdrawal and property rights.

In addition, at least 52 congregations in 20 states, 320 priests and 16 bishops have so far endorsed a protest petition at www.communionparishes.org — a new Web site based in Colorado Springs, Colo. The site also asks Episcopalians to consider withholding contributions from the national denomination and liberal dioceses.

The protesters style themselves as "continuing" Episcopalians, people who want to preserve the denomination’s tradition and the beliefs of a vast majority of the world’s Anglicans.

When it comes to potential property fights, one important factor is that those who opposed the Rev. V. Gene Robinson’s election as New Hampshire bishop were a minority among Episcopal bishops and convention delegates.

That will be a crucial point for Episcopal liberals, because secular courts avoid taking sides in doctrinal squabbles and do not second-guess churches’ internal decision-making.

However, another line of church property cases relies on neutral principles of contract law, which could give conservatives leverage to keep property in some situations, depending on parish documents, state laws and the statutes of local Episcopal dioceses.

In the Episcopal Church’s first notable schism, the 1873 creation of the evangelical Reformed Episcopal Church, defectors generally were allowed to keep their buildings.

But in the 1970s, Episcopal leaders played hardball against opponents of women priests and revisions in the Book of Common Prayer. Few of those who quit, eventually forming 40 small denominations, held their properties.

During those conflicts, the 1979 Episcopal convention added a church law specifying that all assets of a congregation are "held in trust for this church and the diocese thereof." That’s now a major weapon for church headquarters, though Pittsburgh attorney Robert G. Devlin thinks it’s debatable whether the law binds congregations that existed before 1979.

Devlin, an Episcopalian, is the attorney for the Anglican Mission in America, established by overseas Anglican archbishops in 2000 to gather Episcopal dissenters. Only one of its 55 congregations has been able to leave the Episcopal Church with its property.

Washington attorney David Booth Beers, chancellor (legal adviser) to the Episcopal Church’s presiding bishop, had no comment on property law. He also declined to recommend other experts, perhaps reflecting headquarters’ strategy or its edginess about property arguments.

Over the years, when bishops have allowed Episcopalians to leave with their buildings, it was only "when the cost of fighting was greater than the value of the property," says Michael F. Rehill, former chancellor of the Newark (N.J.) Diocese.

Rehill thinks a split now over Robinson makes no sense, because the Episcopal Church set its policy seven years ago when a church court ruled there was no doctrinal barrier to openly gay clergy and the denomination let that decision stand. Rehill was the defense attorney for a bishop in that landmark case.

But what if a whole conservative diocese decided to leave the Episcopal Church? Rehill says a diocese simply cannot do that, and litigation would halt any attempt.

But Nalls argues that the law on the relationship between the diocese and national church is unclear. "This is new territory," he says. "It’s going to be a lawyers’ field day."

Some think a major split in the denomination would actually decrease the chances of extended court battles.

David Kalvelage, executive editor of The Living Church, an independent Episcopal weekly that opposes gay bishops, says both sides would want to avoid spending time and money on legal fights.

Nalls agrees that unless the two sides "talk turkey and broker a divorce," lawyers will reap millions of dollars and there will be little left worth fighting over.

And Devlin thinks numerous property fights would also make the Episcopal Church look bad. "Are we trying to advance the kingdom of God, or trying to just preserve our bricks and mortar?" he asks.

———

On the Net:

Episcopal Church: http://www.episcopalchurch.org
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« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2003, 09:21:28 AM »

Quote
During those conflicts, the 1979 Episcopal convention added a church law specifying that all assets of a congregation are "held in trust for this church and the diocese thereof." That’s now a major weapon for church headquarters, though Pittsburgh attorney Robert G. Devlin thinks it’s debatable whether the law binds congregations that existed before 1979.

If there is a split, it will involve whole departing dioceses. The canons don't give a good answer for that, and the battle will go all over the place. The mess described here involves the dioceses that don't leave but that have a lot of conservative parishes-- Washington and Maryland, to name two. The liberals are betting that there won't be a split at all, and failing that, they're betting that people will continue to go to their local Episcopal Church anyway. If they're right, then they will certainly win a large part of the property battles. If not, who knows? Maybe they'll fill them up with dissident Catholics.
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« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2003, 09:50:23 AM »

Keble<< Maybe they'll fill them up with dissident Catholics.>>

Keble, of course you are joking.  Do you really think that even dissident Catholics are desperate enough to consider (P)ECUSA membership after all this?

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« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2003, 10:14:35 AM »

<<Keble, of course you are joking.  Do you really think that even dissident Catholics are desperate enough to consider (P)ECUSA membership after all this?>>

ROFL. Then they wouldn't be Catholics.
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« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2003, 06:48:44 PM »

ROFL. Then they wouldn't be Catholics.

But are dissident Catholics still Catholic, even if they are still technically "in the Church"?
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« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2003, 07:39:58 PM »

ROFL. Then they wouldn't be Catholics.

But are dissident Catholics still Catholic, even if they are still technically "in the Church"?

Who the heck knows (sorry, no offense to the Catholics here)?  My impression is that people who label themselves the ever ubiquitous 'lapsed Catholic' don't seem to want to admit whether or not they've really 'left the Church'.
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« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2003, 09:33:26 PM »

Dissident Catholics go down in history's rubble heap of lies!
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« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2003, 08:50:09 AM »

Keble<< Maybe they'll fill them up with dissident Catholics.>>

Keble, of course you are joking.  Do you really think that even dissident Catholics are desperate enough to consider (P)ECUSA membership after all this?

Since a heck of a lot of the dissidence is over sexuality and procreation, it wouldn't surprise me a bit. In the USA, in particular, the scandal of an ostensibly celibate clergy which seems to care more about covering up for its own sins than about expressing any sort of understanding of the way "normal" people live-- this makes dissidence easy and common.
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« Reply #83 on: August 23, 2003, 09:59:55 AM »

I have a question.

Don't the ECUSA and the ELCA have some sort of agreement (intercommunion or something)?

How does the furor over the consecration of Robinson affect that?

Is the ELCA balking?

From what I have seen of the ELCA parishes in my area, I don't expect it will. The ELCA is pretty far gone down the same path that ECUSA has trod.

Last Sept. 11 a big local ELCA parish had a 911 commemoration that featured a Moslem reading from the Koran in the church.
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« Reply #84 on: August 23, 2003, 11:00:24 AM »

I have a question.

Don't the ECUSA and the ELCA have some sort of agreement (intercommunion or something)?

How does the furor over the consecration of Robinson affect that?

It's a good question, and I don't have a good answer.

The Concordat has always been a bit tenuous on the ELCA side, largely because they ended up making all the concessions (and didn't like doing so).  There's been very little public comment from the Lutheran side. My suspicion is that their hierarchy is afraid that they will simply fly apart if anyone makes any clear commitment.
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« Reply #85 on: August 23, 2003, 11:06:25 AM »

Humanae Vitae forever!
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