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Offline _Seraphim_

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"Futuristic" Icons
« on: June 25, 2008, 04:09:00 PM »


"Futuristic" Icons

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FuturIkons are futuristic transformations of traditional Icon images. They do not fulfill any of the canons of Eastern Christian icon-painting and are not intended to be Icons in that sense. FuturIkons are religious pictures for now and for the future - celebrating a world of modern science, technological transformation, and global communications. But FuturIkons also honor historical saints, traditions, and devotions. In this way, they are a new-forged combination of ancient and modern. These images can be used in religious devotions, or simply appreciated as artworks, or used in both ways.


After reviewing some of the artist's writings on other parts of the site... I came across this:

Quote
I [the artist] belong to the Order of St. Michael, an ecumenical Christian faith community with a a mystical, esoteric, devotional emphasis. The OSM supports the spiritual paths of people whose imaginative, freethinking, unconventional lifestyles are frowned on or ignored by the mainstream churches…

There are many devoted Jewish and Christian believers who deny that other religions had any influence on them. In their view, this would compromise the unique revelations from God which characterize these religions. But there are other believers who follow a more universalist path. To these believers, the "seeds of wisdom" are found in every religion, including paganism and Zoroastrianism. Every religion has its grains of Truth, seeds which can be sown and grown in the garden of a new revelation, whether that is Jewish or Christian. In this view, it is not only not wrong to adapt what went before into the new faith, but it is essential. Thus nothing that is true will be lost.



So... any thoughts/feedback?  One thing I find particularly interesting is the artist's labeling/titles of the archangels:

Archangel Gabriel - patron of Telecommunications
Archangel Michael - patron of High Energy Physics
Archangel Raphael - patron of Biotechnology
Archangel Uriel - patron of Ecology
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2008, 04:12:24 PM »
Weird.
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2008, 04:14:00 PM »
Definitely interesting...
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2008, 04:15:43 PM »
That Archangel Michael looks like Elrond from Peter Jackson's LOTR movies.
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Offline Simayan

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2008, 04:27:19 PM »
Interesting. Not the kind of thing I want to venerate at church, but fun to think about.
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Offline Orual

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2008, 04:28:43 PM »
I'm glad he cops to not being Orthodox and his pictures not being icons "in that sense".  I don't see a problem other than they're kind of weird.  They are pretty cool looking, though.
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2008, 04:57:25 PM »
Very interesting.  I don't have a problem with religious art of this kind, per se, as long as it (a) doesn't convey anything blatantly false, and (b) is clear that it isn't an icon - two things he takes care to do.
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Offline admiralnick

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2008, 05:05:17 PM »
I almost want to buy one for my house.....
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2008, 06:14:26 PM »
From the website cited by the OP:

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We all seek the Light.

Be wary of any entity claiming to seek the "Light."   :)

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2008, 06:37:12 PM »
From the website cited by the OP:

Be wary of any entity claiming to seek the "Light."   :)
Don't you know that in the future we will evolve into phototropic plant/animal hybrids? ;D
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Offline Ebor

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2008, 06:51:01 PM »
I know the artist and have for many years and have a number of her pieces.  She has done a variety of book cover illustrations, architectural art, space-scapes and more. The Michael predates the Jackson/Hugo Weaving portrayal of Elrond by some years.

Ebor
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2008, 06:58:50 PM »
The Michael predates the Jackson/Hugo Weaving portrayal of Elrond by some years.

Well, it was apparently the inspiration for it.  :P
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Offline Ebor

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2008, 07:00:49 PM »
Well, it was apparently the inspiration for it.  :P

Umm, somehow I doubt it. Sometimes things are just similar  ;D

Ebor
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2008, 07:27:42 PM »
Don't you know that in the future we will evolve into phototropic plant/animal hybrids? ;D

I'll be long gone by the time such a thing happens.  These species can grow over my grave....

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2008, 01:34:08 AM »
Very interesting.  I don't have a problem with religious art of this kind, per se, as long as it (a) doesn't convey anything blatantly false, and (b) is clear that it isn't an icon - two things he takes care to do.

Unfortunately, irrespective of this artists's disavowall of canonicity, because of the geometric artistic style, there will be plenty of people who will see them as icons, just as there are folks who have lapped up the "icons" of Robert Lentz, Willian Hart McNichols, and their protegees. Groovy New Age tripe, I'm afraid.

Despite the artist's distancing herself from claiming iconographic canonicity, nevertheless, she describes her image of the Mother of God in decidedly iconographic terms. More scope for confusion for the unsuspecting punter.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 01:38:29 AM by LBK »
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2008, 03:34:52 AM »
Very interesting - and what vivid colours. I rather like them.
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Offline Orual

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2008, 11:53:11 AM »
Very interesting - and what vivid colours. I rather like them.

I like the vivid colors, too - you don't see a lot of icons with those.   Although I have to say the bold color theme for each painting kind of reminds me of Clue characters:  red for Miss Scarlet, yellow for Colonel Mustard, etc.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2008, 12:19:01 PM »
I like the vivid colors, too - you don't see a lot of icons with those.  Although I have to say the bold color theme for each painting kind of reminds me of Clue characters:  red for Miss Scarlet, yellow for Colonel Mustard, etc.

The colours the artist chose are part of the meaning for each subject.  Green of course for Ecology with plant life for example.  Look at the faces, too and the ways that they're all different.  :) The borders also aren't just random decoration.

The artist is very much aware of colours and their associated meanings. We once had a very interesting discussion about how characters in fantasy stories are often "colour coded" as to hair and eye colour among other attributes. 

Ebor
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 12:25:08 PM by Ebor »
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Offline Didymus

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2008, 01:35:05 PM »
Thanks for the post!
Would it be possible to develop an iconographic style somewhat like this and yet still have it conform to the stands of the Orthodox Church?

On that, are OO standards different to EO ones?
OO icons certainly appear to reflect their various cultures more particularly.

Here's a link to the series:
http://www.pyracantha.com/religious.html
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Offline EofK

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2008, 01:47:42 PM »
Don't you know that in the future we will evolve into phototropic plant/animal hybrids? ;D

Like... this?   ;D



As others have said, I don't see anything wrong with the "futuristic" icons as long symbols, events, and people are portrayed accurately.  They'd kind of clash with our icon corner, though, so I don't think I'd invest in any.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2008, 02:49:47 PM »
Have you been visiting LolCthulu as well as LolCats?   ;) ;D

Ebor
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Offline Amdetsion

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2008, 02:55:59 PM »
Absolutely rediculous.....
"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2008, 03:13:44 PM »
Interesting. Not the kind of thing I want to venerate at church, but fun to think about.
I agree...not my 'cup of tea' either.
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2008, 06:51:13 PM »
I like the vivid colors, too - you don't see a lot of icons with those.   Although I have to say the bold color theme for each painting kind of reminds me of Clue characters:  red for Miss Scarlet, yellow for Colonel Mustard, etc.

^^ :laugh: 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 06:53:10 PM by Riddikulus »
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2008, 07:07:58 PM »
Have you been visiting LolCthulu as well as LolCats?   ;) ;D

Ebor

I am now! ;)




On a serious note, though, since the writing of icons requires much prayer, would these particular icons (since they're written by a non-Orthodox) be ok to use? 
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Offline LBK

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2008, 07:31:35 PM »
On a serious note, though, since the writing of icons requires much prayer, would these particular icons (since they're written by a non-Orthodox) be ok to use? 

No, not at all. The content alone of these images does not conform or express Orthodox doctrine or Holy Tradition, therefore they can only be regarded as "pretty pictures". It is also highly unlikely that prayer and fasting was part of the process of painting these "futurikons". An iconographer is an instrument of the Orthodox Church to produce works which are faithful to the teachings and traditions of the Church. Unbridled creativity and imagination is not compatible with the painting of icons.

A rule of thumb: If you were to take one of these futurikons to your priest and ask him to bless it on the altar of your church, what do you think his answer would be? What are the chances of such an image gracing the analogion in your church? Think about it, folks.
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2008, 09:12:09 PM »
Unbridled creativity and imagination is not compatible with the painting of icons.
I like your qualifier. The Church does not squash imagination, only directs it.
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2008, 11:04:43 PM »
Those pictures posted by Eofk remind me of the Flying Spagetti Monaster!
(FSM is a pretty clever and funny spoof of creationism IMO)

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2008, 11:10:53 PM »
It is also highly unlikely that prayer and fasting was part of the process of painting these "futurikons".

One could always ask the artist...

Quote
Unbridled creativity and imagination is not compatible with the painting of icons.

Would you please explain what is meant by "unbridled creativity and imagination"?  That would possibly give the impression of chaos or lack of control. 


Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2008, 11:12:18 PM »
Those pictures posted by Eofk remind me of the Flying Spagetti Monaster!
(FSM is a pretty clever and funny spoof of creationism IMO)

I wonder if the creators of the FSM based some of the idea on Lovecraft's mythos...
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Offline BrotherAidan

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2008, 11:13:12 PM »
Speaking of non-canonical icons...
has anyone seen the icon of John Coltrane?
It is on the website of some church on the west coast.
I think they have also un-canonically made him a saint.
Anyway, if you are into jazz, it is a pretty cool "icon" (actually, like these in the OP, icon-inspired art)

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2008, 11:24:53 PM »
Speaking of non-canonical icons...
has anyone seen the icon of John Coltrane?
It is on the website of some church on the west coast.
I think they have also un-canonically made him a saint.
Anyway, if you are into jazz, it is a pretty cool "icon" (actually, like these in the OP, icon-inspired art)

Brother I thought you were joking for a second but I checked out some stuff. They are apart of the African Orthodox church (They follow the Anglican tradition whatever that means), They have cannonised John Colatrane in to a Saint and have a church dedicated to him that uses his lyrics in their worship.
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Offline LBK

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2008, 01:09:25 AM »
Would you please explain what is meant by "unbridled creativity and imagination"?  That would possibly give the impression of chaos or lack of control. 

While it could mean "chaos or lack of control", Ebor, it also means the iconographer cannot simply paint a religious image from within his creative imagination and call it an icon, unless that image fully conforms to Orthodox doctrine and theology. Iconography is about illustrating what has been revealed to us of the things and truths of God, not the expression of an artist's personal whims or fantasies.

It was quite commonplace for western artists during the Renaissance and Baroque periods to paint religious themes using actual people as models for saints and other holy figures. There are any number of western Madonna paintings where the Virgin's face has been modelled on the artist's wife, daughter, or the wife or daughter of the patron who commissioned the painting. One of the most famous examples of this sort of personal interpolation is the fresco of the Last Judgement in the Sistine Chapel. One of the figures in this painting is that of Apostle Bartholomew, who was skinned alive as part of his martyrdom. Michelangelo painted the saint holding his flayed skin in one hand, while he looks up at Christ. Though the flayed skin is distorted and folded in the saint's grip, the face on the skin is clearly that of Michelangelo himself.

This approach may be considered acceptable by western religious standards, but is completely unacceptable in Orthodox iconography.

Regarding "icons" of John Coltrane and other similar schlock, I have a very good article on file which addresses this phenomenon in no uncertain terms. Forum members are welcome to PM me if they are interested in reading it.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 07:28:37 AM by LBK »
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2008, 02:04:03 AM »
While it could mean "chaos or lack of control", Ebor, it also means the iconographer cannot simply paint a religious image from within his creative imagination and call it an icon, unless that image fully conforms to Orthodox doctrine and theology. Iconography is about illustrating what has been revealed to us of the things and truths of God, not the expression of an artist's personal whims or fantasies.

It was quite commonplace for western artists during the Renaissance and Baroque periods to paint religious themes using actual people as models for saints and other holy figures. There are any number of western Madonna paintings where the Virgin's face has been modelled on the artist's wife, daughter, or the wife or daughter of the patron who commissioned the painting. One of the most famous examples of this sort of personal interpolation is the fresco of the Last Judgement in the Sistine Chapel. One of the figures in this painting is that Apostle Bartholomew, who was skinned alive as part of his martyrdom. Michelangelo painted the saint holding his flayed skin in one hand, while he looks up at Christ. Though the flayed skin is distorted and folded in the saint's grip, the face on the skin is clearly that of Michelangelo himself.

This approach may be considered acceptable by western religious standards, but is completely unacceptable in Orthodox iconography.
I have heard from an iconographer that an icon of a saint must be painted to maintain faithfulness to the actual appearance and features of the saint depicted (while at the same showing some stylization to symbolize the saint as he/she is now in heaven awaiting the final resurrection).  Is this your understanding of the Orthodox iconographic tradition?
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2008, 03:15:40 AM »
Peter, of course an icon of a given saint should have some resemblance to him or her, if there exists a historical description, verbal, or painted portrait. This is not always the case, however. If a saint's actual physical appearance is not known, this does NOT give licence to the iconographer to paint that saint using a living person as a model, as did Michelangelo and other artists, in the manner I mentioned in my last post. Self-portraits in the guise of portraying saints is a particularly arrogant gesture, even in a non-Orthodox artwork.

For many saints, particularly female saints, there exists no record of what they looked like, so an iconographer draws from the life of the saint, the liturgical material written for him or her, etc, and paints an icon consistent with the qualities of that saint: layman/monastic/cleric (of appropriate rank), humble or noble birth, station in life (warrior, unmercenary healer, etc) where this has a spiritual meaning, whether the saint was young or aged at repose, whether he or she died a martyr's death, the list goes on.

It was common practice for many early bishops and other holy ones of renown to have a detailed physical description written of them soon after their death, in part to aid in their iconographic portrayal should they be later glorified as saints. This is why icons of many of the early saints and apostles are so consistent in their portrayal over so many centuries. St John Chrysostom, for instance, is always shown with short, slightly receding dark hair, and a short, neatly-trimmed beard. St Mary of Egypt is shown with unruly white hair, wizened skin (from her many years of ascetic life in the desert), and wearing a rough cloak over one shoulder. More recent saints may have the added advantage of photographic evidence, though the iconographer must be careful to not paint the icon in a photo-realistic style devoid of otherwordliness, nor should there be such features suggesting physical deformity or imperfection (such as wearing spectacles - a common modern mistake), as an icon should show the saint in his or her spiritually perfected, heavenly state, as you rightly stated.

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2008, 03:24:02 AM »
LBK, Michaelangelo wasn't what we would consider an iconographer in the Eastern Orthodox church.

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2008, 03:34:24 AM »
username!, I never said he was. I mentioned Michelangelo and the Last Judgement fresco to illustrate the incompatibility of certain artistic practices used in western religious art with proper Orthodox iconography. I did, after all, say two posts ago:

Quote
This approach may be considered acceptable by western religious standards, but is completely unacceptable in Orthodox iconography.

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Offline Ebor

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2008, 02:36:38 PM »
Thank you for explaining what you meant, LBK.

It was quite commonplace for western artists during the Renaissance and Baroque periods to paint religious themes using actual people as models for saints and other holy figures.

Yes, I know this.  As art styles and techniques developed, I believe, painting from life models helped to portray the saints and others as human beings really look.  A difference of point of view and one that we must agree to disagree on perhaps.  :)

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Though the flayed skin is distorted and folded in the saint's grip, the face on the skin is clearly that of Michelangelo himself.

I don't know about "clearly" since there are not photos of Michelangelo to show how he really looked.  I've also read that it is supposed to be someone else, a poet whose name I'd have to look up.

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This approach may be considered acceptable by western religious standards, but is completely unacceptable in Orthodox iconography.

Understood and the works in question are not claiming to EO icons, nor is the artist making any such claims.

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Regarding "icons" of John Coltrane and other similar schlock, I have a very good article on file which addresses this phenomenon in no uncertain terms. Forum members are welcome to PM me if they are interested in reading it.

I've heard of the Coltrane icon and church, but know little about them.  Why could the information be given in a post, please?

With respect,

Ebor
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Offline Keble

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2008, 06:11:20 PM »
LBK, I think you protest too much. Ms. Shapero is a Catholic, attending a Melkite parish last I knew. It isn't really reasonable for her to be expected to rigidly follow Eastern conventions for iconography. And it isn't really plausible to think that any but the most clueless members of Eastern churches would ever mistake these for "Orthodox" icons.

As far as consistency of representation is concerned: much of this, in modern times, comes from the copying of other preferred prototypes. As far as the women are concerned, with a few exceptions they all are alike. There is more diversity among the men, but for instance what has happened to icons of Chrysostom is that they have increasingly become conventionalized. The whole hairline thing, for instance, is not at all consistent. The Hagia Sophia mosaic, for instance, depicts him according to the general Roman conventions of a somewhat younger man. Its accuracy need be no more than coincidental. Looking across time and space (here's a bunch of them in one place) there's quite a variation. Modern iconographers seem to select more "correct" icons for reproduction. On the other hand, there is a long period in western art where it can be safely assumed that all portraits are inaccurate.

I haven't asked her, but I don't believe that any of the ones shown above are to any significant degree portraits of whatever models she used. The last image on the page from which these are taken I have a great deal of trouble with, as it is intended to some degree as a portrait.

Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2008, 06:18:24 PM »
"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2008, 06:21:49 PM »
Article on ZOROASTRIANISM by the artist

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The ancient Iranian religion of fire, light, and Wisdom still lives today. This is the first monotheistic religion, founded by the Prophet Zarathushtra over 3000 years ago. It has had a profound influence on Judaism, Christianity, and Western culture...
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2008, 06:57:25 PM »
^^ They really are quite beautiful. The artist is very talented, IMHO. As I can't even paint by numbers, I'm a little envious!  ;D It's probably not a style that would suit everyone, but I do like the way she uses colour.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2008, 08:40:28 PM »
Article on ZOROASTRIANISM by the artist


The artist has a scholarly interest in the Zoroastrian religion and culture, just as some others may have an interest in other cultures or religions not their own.  Is there any point you are trying to get across by posting so many of her pictures (and does that violate her copyright one wonders) without personal comments please?

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2008, 08:45:07 PM »
^^ They really are quite beautiful. The artist is very talented, IMHO. As I can't even paint by numbers, I'm a little envious!  ;D It's probably not a style that would suit everyone, but I do like the way she uses colour.

I agree very much with you on her talent and uses of colour.  :)  Her abstracts linked to on her home page are new to me and I like them very much; they're very striking with shapes and colour.  We have a portrait in pencils and watercolour of our oldest son when he was quite small that she did when we were all at a Science Fiction Convention along with a few other of her earlier pictures.

Ebor
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Offline BrotherAidan

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2008, 12:54:10 AM »
Those who aren't Orthodox (OO or EO) or Catholics and Anglicans who venreate icons as part of their devotional practice are not going to understand icons and icon painting and the theology behind icons. So there is no use trashing these "icons' from the Orthodox theological perspective.

These are not icons for devotional use or veneration for those of us in the above-mentioned categories, I would think.

And they may be just a bit over the top  (the angel Gabriel as a Hindu woman; although of all the ones in the OP, I rather liked that as a piece of art) and their presentation in iconic form may be difficult for people who venerate icons.

But they are good pieces of art. As Orthodox, we should not get so uptight over any and every presentation of religious art that we become anti-art like some protestatnt fundamentalists are.

The artist is a good painter and her colors are dynamic. I like these peices as art. I don't think I could pray before one of them (for reasons theological, aesthetic and otherwise).

P.S. I also really like the African woman/Uriel piece - but again not as an icon, but as art.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 12:57:12 AM by BrotherAidan »

Offline Ebor

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2008, 01:02:51 AM »
<applause emoticon here>

You get it too, BrotherAiden.  :)

You also caught some of the very particular differentiation between the various angels in the first set.  One thing that interests me is that you see Gabriel as an east Indian woman and I saw it as male/somewhat neutral.  Intriguing. 

Ebor
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Offline LBK

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2008, 06:46:05 AM »
I don't know about "clearly" since there are not photos of Michelangelo to show how he really looked.  I've also read that it is supposed to be someone else, a poet whose name I'd have to look up.

Michelangelo did produce some sketches and studies which were self-portraits, so there is a historical record of what he looked like.

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As Orthodox, we should not get so uptight over any and every presentation of religious art that we become anti-art like some protestatnt fundamentalists are.

Brother Aidan, I have a great appreciation for a broad variety of art, across many periods. However, when artists begin to blur the boundaries of art and iconography, this prompts me to speak out. Let's not forget that the artist behind the futurikons still suggests these works can be used in religious devotions (her words), as well as regarded as simply "art".

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Those who aren't Orthodox (OO or EO) or Catholics and Anglicans who venreate icons as part of their devotional practice are not going to understand icons and icon painting and the theology behind icons. So there is no use trashing these "icons' from the Orthodox theological perspective.

I find this comment rather condescending, if not insulting, to pious non-Orthodox folks who have "discovered" icons, and would like to use them as part of their devotions. Is it so difficult to educate such people on what an icon is, and, just as importantly, what is not an icon? No, it is not, as I regularly speak to groups of such people. Invariably they are amazed and humbled by the depth and richness of our sacred art. With a few, it sets them on the road to conversion to Orthodoxy.

It must also be said that two of the most notorious and prolific producers and peddlers of uncanonical icons are Roman Catholic (one a Jesuit priest, the other a Franciscan friar). I have no problem whatsoever with their religious denomination, but I do have a problem with their modus operandi. Both these men use their religious vocation as a means of asserting their credibility as "master iconographers" among the unsuspecting pious public. Vile.



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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2008, 02:15:28 PM »
does that violate her copyright one wonders...?


The only reason we can see these images is because they already exist online... they're just visually being "linked" to.  If someone doesn't want their art being "linked" to than they shouldn't have them on the world-wide-web.
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2008, 02:18:10 PM »
Is there any point you are trying to get across by posting so many of her pictures... without personal comments please?

I don't have much to say about them, but I'm curious to know what others think.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2008, 02:27:50 PM »
I think they're interesting, though I probably wouldn't buy one of them.

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2008, 10:46:46 PM »


You also caught some of the very particular differentiation between the various angels in the first set.  One thing that interests me is that you see Gabriel as an east Indian woman and I saw it as male/somewhat neutral.  Intriguing. 

Ebor

I thought Michael looked like a Native American Ninja!  ???

And with Rafael, Sir Isaac Newton came to mind.  :laugh:

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2008, 10:52:25 PM »


I find this comment rather condescending, if not insulting, to pious non-Orthodox folks who have "discovered" icons, and would like to use them as part of their devotions. Is it so difficult to educate such people on what an icon is, and, just as importantly, what is not an icon? No, it is not, as I regularly speak to groups of such people. Invariably they are amazed and humbled by the depth and richness of our sacred art. With a few, it sets them on the road to conversion to Orthodoxy.







I thought about protestants and even non-Christians who are attracted to icons or incorporate them into their prayer lives. Sometimes you just don't have time to type everything that's on your mind.

But it is not at all condescending in that 90%, probably more, of people who venerate icons are from the communions I mentioned.
It was just an observation of fact. There are always exceptions to prove the rule.

If you are encouraging people from these other backgrounds to venerate icons, God bless you and keep doing it!

Offline CalloftheTor

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2008, 12:18:08 PM »
They are beautiful. And it is interesting to think of the Holy Angels being active in the "modern" world.
Obviously not Orthodox, but entertaining.
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2008, 02:46:29 PM »
I think they are heretical. Reminds me of the pagan gods. In that they have control over certain elements.
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2008, 04:05:22 PM »
Reminds me of the pagan gods. In that they have control over certain elements.

Ironically it is only the holy (not fallen) angels that DO have control over the elements. 
The problem lies in worshiping the servants/ministers/messengers of God instead of God Himself. 

Satan really can't fully invent anything... just distort the Truth.

Holy angels always refuse any worship given to them
(even though they actually do have magnificent power over creation)...
while the demons (who have no real power) toil endlessly for any attention from humanity.
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2008, 05:29:04 PM »
I took another look having some time to think about my first response.

I conclude:

Absolutely ridiculous.

Not for orthodox use at all...period.

Side show art.
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2008, 08:33:23 PM »
The artist has a scholarly interest in the Zoroastrian religion and culture, just as some others may have an interest in other cultures or religions not their own.  Is there any point you are trying to get across by posting so many of her pictures (and does that violate her copyright one wonders) without personal comments please?

Ebor

Linking has already been declared protected by courts. I don't know about "hotlinking" though. I would not be too concerned about the law though when someone is making images of demons. That is what one really needs to be concerned about--someone making images based on icons also makes images of Zorastrian "angels" (ie. demons).
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 08:35:16 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2008, 08:36:05 PM »
BTW, I think the images look appealing, but I can't support what they are about.
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2008, 10:44:54 PM »
That is what one really needs to be concerned about--someone making images based on icons also makes images of Zorastrian "angels" (ie. demons).

Exactly.
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2008, 10:45:10 PM »
The artist has a scholarly interest in the Zoroastrian religion and culture, just as some others may have an interest in other cultures or religions not their own.  Is there any point you are trying to get across by posting so many of her pictures (and does that violate her copyright one wonders) without personal comments please?

Ebor

Ebor, Father just answered your question very well.
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2008, 01:02:59 AM »
Linking has already been declared protected by courts. I don't know about "hotlinking" though. I would not be too concerned about the law though when someone is making images of demons. That is what one really needs to be concerned about--someone making images based on icons also makes images of Zorastrian "angels" (ie. demons).

I'm just curious, Father.  I don't know that much about the Zoroastrian faith at all.  My feeling would be that these beings might be demons, but that they might not be too...I don't presume to say what they are or are not.  Perhaps you know more about Zoroastrianism, and that is why you are sure that they are demons?  I don't know.  I've certainly seen spirits in other faiths and worldviews that appear to be demonic, but others in the same faiths  that don't appear to  be so....figures in shamanistic beliefs come  to mind.
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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2008, 03:03:06 AM »
I guess any angel who isn't Christian would be a demon.  That only makes sense.

The Zoroastrians have very elaborate beliefs about angels:

http://www.avesta.org/angels.html

The "futuristic icons" in the original post do remind me of them, especially the way they seem to be "presiding" over different things.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 03:06:43 AM by Salpy »

Offline Quinault

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2008, 03:17:27 AM »
I find them appaling and offensive. It is taken the sacred and making it clipart.

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Re: "Futuristic" Icons
« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2008, 11:02:39 AM »
Linking has already been declared protected by courts. I don't know about "hotlinking" though.

Thank you.  I link to sites that provide supporting information frequently, sometimes with small quotes to show that they are relevent, so that was not my concern.  It was the "hotlinking" which in effect "copies" a piece of art to another site that I was wondering about.

Ebor
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