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Author Topic: Debating: Byzantine Catholic vs. Orthodox  (Read 13836 times) Average Rating: 0
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theistgal
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« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2008, 07:49:03 PM »

You're welcome.

Greek Catholic is older and simpler to write.

A way-station to Orthodoxy? Maybe.

In any event you're right to go slowly.

Yep, you're right - never a good idea to jump ship on an impulse (unless the impulse is flames at your back!  Wink)

Christos Anesti!  Grin
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« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2008, 08:51:43 PM »

FWIW we had a nice mini-vacation, and a nice visit to this beautiful church:  http://www.holyangelssandiego.com/.

Wow, that church looks awesome. Did you take any pictures while you were there?
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« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2008, 10:02:12 PM »

I think Rome is unique in that Easterners were elected to the position of Patirach of the West. Whereas it has never been that a Latin was elected to head and Eastern Patriarchate.

Here's a list of Ecumenical Patriarchs since the Apostle Andrew.  I would imagine that a few of them are Latin, as if ethnicity really mattered during unified Christianity's first 1,021 years.

List of Ecumenical Patriarchs
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« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2008, 11:25:11 PM »

Wow, that church looks awesome. Did you take any pictures while you were there?

Yes, it was really beautiful!  My husband put a video on Youtube so you can see/hear better:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SdF-x-3KE4

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« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2008, 01:38:44 AM »

nice icons in that church.  Icons don't make up for the new revised divine liturgy the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic churches use..... taking out Nicene placed words in the creed (not the filioque, which was removed too but that's not what I mean) chopping parts of the liturgy out completely and inserting gender neutral language into the liturgy. 

It can smell and look like an Eastern Orthodox Church but when you change the liturgical texts you are changing the faith.

Filioque -inserted by man (oh did I say man, sorry I should use current Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic thinking, it was inserted by persons)

For us men and our salvation - the correct English translation, but I guess if you are removing one word that was inserted to equal it out the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church figured it must remove another word placed into the Creed by the Church Fathers.

--- the Ukrainian Greek Catholic and recent Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church Creed says "For us and our salvation" 

Another awesome change the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church has done is change "lover of mankind" to "God who loves us all." 
I know what I believe as a Christian because I have it beautifully summed up in the Nicene Creed.  But I guess it the Ukrainian Greek Catholics and the Ruthenian Greek Byzantine Catholic Church feels it is o.k. just to ignore church councils and re-write the Creed at will.

But then restoring proskomedia without pre-cut lambs (anyone else ever defrost pre-cuts before liturgy? It was always fun) would make sense?  Ah but no, proskomedia is still performed with pre-cut lambs, glossed over etc..
Then there are Eucharistic ministers in a few places in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic church.
But I see people rejoice and act like some victory has taken place when one bishop in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church vests properly in front of the congregation.  Hardly recapturing their eastern roots while the priest is using a cut and changed liturgicon, fasting is taught Roman Catholic style... etc.......
The externals may look more eastern than they used to 30 years ago but the language and core teachings are still Roman Catholic as ever.  You do have some priests that teach everything Eastern Orthodox but at the same time the official teaching of the Church is the exact opposite. 
I don't mean to step on anyone's toes and I'm sure a few Byzantine Catholic posters are probably going to be furious at this post.  But I didn't make the changes to your Divine Liturgy.  I am not in charge of the milked down Roman Catholic teachings that have become the teachings in your sui juris churches.

So years ago the Greek Catholic Churches were restricted heavily in Liturgical practice by the Latins.  But they still were taught proper fasting.  It's a constant fight between a balance of how Eastern you can be.  Go too far and you're pulled back in.  Sure you have been allowed restoration of certain liturgical practices but then you look in another place and latin teachings are the rule. 
I mean I could go on for days... oh what about fasting?  Change the evil language but not restore fasting, proper proskomedia, Great Vespers on Saturday evening.  I mean the list can go on and on.
If anyone has any doubts on the position of the Immaculate Conception in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church then please attend the huge Uniontown Pilgrimage where the gender neutral language loving sisters have a giant Immaculate Conception shrine (at a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Convent). 
The good news is I heard they finally stopped having Eucharistic Adoration at this pilgrimage that thousands of Byzantine/Greek Catholics attend.

In the spirit of the original post.....  the church you linked looks very Eastern Orthodox but open up the pew book and it looks anything but Eastern Orthodox.

The next thing I feel is going to be justification of all this vis-a-vis catholic canon law, but hence, you wanted differences pointed out between the two... and I am just giving a little taste of the differences here in this post.
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« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2008, 03:06:01 AM »

nice icons in that church.  Icons don't make up for the new revised divine liturgy the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic churches use..... taking out Nicene placed words in the creed (not the filioque, which was removed too but that's not what I mean) chopping parts of the liturgy out completely and inserting gender neutral language into the liturgy. 

It can smell and look like an Eastern Orthodox Church but when you change the liturgical texts you are changing the faith.

Filioque -inserted by man (oh did I say man, sorry I should use current Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic thinking, it was inserted by persons)

For us men and our salvation - the correct English translation, but I guess if you are removing one word that was inserted to equal it out the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church figured it must remove another word placed into the Creed by the Church Fathers.

--- the Ukrainian Greek Catholic and recent Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church Creed says "For us and our salvation" 

Another awesome change the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church has done is change "lover of mankind" to "God who loves us all." 
I know what I believe as a Christian because I have it beautifully summed up in the Nicene Creed.  But I guess it the Ukrainian Greek Catholics and the Ruthenian Greek Byzantine Catholic Church feels it is o.k. just to ignore church councils and re-write the Creed at will.

But then restoring proskomedia without pre-cut lambs (anyone else ever defrost pre-cuts before liturgy? It was always fun) would make sense?  Ah but no, proskomedia is still performed with pre-cut lambs, glossed over etc..
Then there are Eucharistic ministers in a few places in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic church.
But I see people rejoice and act like some victory has taken place when one bishop in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church vests properly in front of the congregation.  Hardly recapturing their eastern roots while the priest is using a cut and changed liturgicon, fasting is taught Roman Catholic style... etc.......
The externals may look more eastern than they used to 30 years ago but the language and core teachings are still Roman Catholic as ever.  You do have some priests that teach everything Eastern Orthodox but at the same time the official teaching of the Church is the exact opposite. 
I don't mean to step on anyone's toes and I'm sure a few Byzantine Catholic posters are probably going to be furious at this post.  But I didn't make the changes to your Divine Liturgy.  I am not in charge of the milked down Roman Catholic teachings that have become the teachings in your sui juris churches.

So years ago the Greek Catholic Churches were restricted heavily in Liturgical practice by the Latins.  But they still were taught proper fasting.  It's a constant fight between a balance of how Eastern you can be.  Go too far and you're pulled back in.  Sure you have been allowed restoration of certain liturgical practices but then you look in another place and latin teachings are the rule. 
I mean I could go on for days... oh what about fasting?  Change the evil language but not restore fasting, proper proskomedia, Great Vespers on Saturday evening.  I mean the list can go on and on.
If anyone has any doubts on the position of the Immaculate Conception in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church then please attend the huge Uniontown Pilgrimage where the gender neutral language loving sisters have a giant Immaculate Conception shrine (at a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Convent). 
The good news is I heard they finally stopped having Eucharistic Adoration at this pilgrimage that thousands of Byzantine/Greek Catholics attend.

In the spirit of the original post.....  the church you linked looks very Eastern Orthodox but open up the pew book and it looks anything but Eastern Orthodox.

The next thing I feel is going to be justification of all this vis-a-vis catholic canon law, but hence, you wanted differences pointed out between the two... and I am just giving a little taste of the differences here in this post.

I couldn't have said it better myself! Grin Slava Isusu Christu!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 03:08:48 AM by stosh » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2008, 07:47:01 AM »

theistgal, exactly. You've got it.

username! has amplified my point that many/most Greek Catholics, certainly most Ruthenians, don't really want to be Eastern but modern RC with a few Eastern externals.

Rome has always told them not to copy the RCs liturgically (yes!) but they do and get away with it: now they've got a sliced-and-diced Liturgy with some 'inclusive language' and even Eucharistic ministers in some places.

I've never seen the 'Revised Divine Liturgy' (as I'm at a very unrevised one on Sundays in a liturgical language and with priest's silent prayers) but my friend the local Ruthenian Greek Catholic priest says it's not that bad. Still the principle of the change screams to me 'we wanna be like modern RC, you know, normal Catholics'.

Ruthenian Greek Catholic practice before Vatican II is an interesting case still mirrored in some places by ACROD practice as ACROD split from them 70 years ago over clerical marriage and diocesan vs congregational ownership of churches (ACROD charmingly seems unmodernised: where it's latinised it's very 1930s Greek Catholic): sometimes the church interior looked more Latin (no iconostasis for example) and the Liturgy often was shaved down to be like a Latin Sung or Low Mass, and there was bination (two Liturgies by the same priest at the same altar on the same day) and First Communion for the seven-year-olds (some Russian Metropolia/OCA parishes, also ex-Greek Catholic, had 'Solemn First Communion' for the kids too) but they were using the Julian calendar (until the 1950s) and the Orthodox date for Easter (the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the Ukraine still does both), and may have followed Orthodox fasting rules too. And from asking an old-timer no longer with us it seems to me Saturday Vespers wasn't entirely unknown. (Before radio, movies and TV killed off nighttime church services in many places, the Latins used to have Sunday Vespers in all the parishes and the Anglicans Evening Prayer/Evensong.)

The first Byzantine Liturgy I ever went to 23 years ago (Ukrainian Catholic) was spoken not sung, with no incense, and kneeling Communion (the priest's blessing cross was passed down and kissed before the people received, imitating a Latin way of 'passing the peace', something I've not seen before or since).
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« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2008, 07:58:19 AM »

Huh? When was a Byzantine City subject to Rome's Jurisdiction Pre-1054?  If there was a Metropolitan of Thessalonika, He would've been part of the EP and not Rome.

I don't have any links for you, but if you are able to find how the bishops of the cities in Greece signed their names at the various councils, you will discover that they did indeed consider themselves part of Rome's jurisdiction.

John
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« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2008, 11:58:00 AM »

theistgal, exactly. You've got it.

username! has amplified my point that many/most Greek Catholics, certainly most Ruthenians, don't really want to be Eastern but modern RC with a few Eastern externals.

Rome has always told them not to copy the RCs liturgically (yes!) but they do and get away with it: now they've got a sliced-and-diced Liturgy with some 'inclusive language' and even Eucharistic ministers in some places.

I've never seen the 'Revised Divine Liturgy' (as I'm at a very unrevised one on Sundays in a liturgical language and with priest's silent prayers) but my friend the local Ruthenian Greek Catholic priest says it's not that bad. Still the principle of the change screams to me 'we wanna be like modern RC, you know, normal Catholics'.

In a lot of ways what you say is true, in my (admittedly limited) experience.  My husband grew up with, and loves, the old Slavonic liturgy, and has been very saddened by the suppression of Slavonic in the "new regime".  He's a cantor (and has trained me to be one too), and our priest allows us to sing Slavonic in the paraliturgical hymns (before/after the liturgy), which is nice.  But certainly not the same.

And as a "cradle Catholic" it smacks all too loudly of the clumsy and very unpastoral suppression of Latin some 40-50 years ago.  That's being reversed, somewhat, today.  But too little, too late for all the people who became disillusioned and left the Church -- even lost their faith altogether -- because of the way they were treated.

And seeing it all happening again in the Byzantine (Greek Catholic) rite is like "deja vu all over again"!

Still ... with all the flaws and all the problems ... I love the church we attend now so much, especially the people - which is why I've decided to tarry there, for a while at least. 
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« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2008, 12:19:06 PM »

nice icons in that church.  Icons don't make up for the new revised divine liturgy the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic churches use..... taking out Nicene placed words in the creed (not the filioque, which was removed too but that's not what I mean) chopping parts of the liturgy out completely and inserting gender neutral language into the liturgy. 

...Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic thinking, it was inserted by persons)

...the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church figured it must remove another word placed into the Creed by the Church Fathers.

To be fair, the Byzantine Metropolitan Church sui iuris of Pittsburgh is NOT part of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church. The "Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church" is precisely the Eparchy of Mukachevo, Ukraine and the Exarchate of Prague, Czech Republic. The actual Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church has nothing whatsoever to do with the much-lamented "Revised (Ruined) Divine Liturgy" of the Pittsburgh Metropolia.

It's really a shame that this connection is now made (when Pittsburgh is doing whatever it can to reject it). I've never seen the term "Ruthenian" written so frequently and now with such scorn before this damned RDL debacle.  Cry
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« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2008, 12:19:41 PM »

I don't have any links for you, but if you are able to find how the bishops of the cities in Greece signed their names at the various councils, you will discover that they did indeed consider themselves part of Rome's jurisdiction.

Which Rome - old Rome or new Rome?
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« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2008, 12:43:20 PM »

--- the Ukrainian Greek Catholic and recent Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church Creed says "For us and our salvation" 

I attend a Ukrainian parish from time to time and the Symbol of Faith has not changed, either in English or Ukrainian. The 1988 translation of the Divine Liturgy (English & Ukrainian) issued by the Synod of Ukrainian Catholic Bishops is still officially used. (Evidently there are other parishes that use an older English translation.) Where did you see something that corresponds to the Pittsburgh novota? (If "Diak" were here he'd be all over you for saying that, since you and I both know that the Ukrainian Catholics can do no wrong, at least, not compared to Pittsburgh.)

Quote
... fasting is taught Roman Catholic style...

But they still were taught proper fasting.

To be fair (can we try, please? you're starting to sound like a Bitter Betty), the place of the minor fasts was officially restored in the last few years in the Pittsburgh Metropolia. And while fasting practice is far from rigorous, there are a few more days now of obligatory abstinence than there had been a few years ago.

Quote
milked down Roman Catholic teachings that have become the teachings in your sui juris churches.

Do you mean that RC teachings are milked down, or that ours are milked down even further than RC "teachings" are?

Quote
So years ago the Greek Catholic Churches were restricted heavily in Liturgical practice by the Latins.

We certainly have a long tradition of following the Latins in liturgical practice (e.g., cutting out vespers in favor of anticipated Saturday evening Divine Liturgies, adopting the Way of the Cross as the usual parochial Great Fast service), but restricted heavily by the Latins?  No, the Latins never forced us to do anything liturgically we didn't want to do ourselves. (Clerical celibacy is hardly a liturgical practice.)

Quote
you look in another place and latin teachings are the rule.

What exactly are you referring to?  And how is that put into practice?

The official catechism in English for the North American Churches of the Byzantine Tradition is Light for Life, which doesn't talk about the Immaculate Conception of Mary, or Purgatory, or Indulgences, or even much about Papal Authority if at all.

The official catechetical texts for children in those Churches are the God With Us series, which likewise doesn't broach the subject of "Latin teachings." They are too busy teaching about the Liturgy, the Commandments, the Holy Mysteries, and living a moral life.

Someone can request a Divine Liturgy for the intention of the "Poor Souls" (i.e., in Purgatory), but I haven't heard of any clergy telling people they should do that. A parish here and there has Divine Mercy devotions but the bishops have never recommended such a thing.

Quote
If anyone has any doubts on the position of the Immaculate Conception in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church then please attend the huge Uniontown Pilgrimage where the gender neutral language loving sisters have a giant Immaculate Conception shrine (at a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Convent).

The "giant Immaculate Conception shrine" is actually called the Lourdes Grotto which commemorates the appearance of the Theotokos in France where she supposedly said "I am the Immaculate Conception." That shrine is well over 60 years old, and it is massive, and it is a popular place of prayer & lighting of candles as well as being the locus for the water that is blessed by the hierarchs at the opening of the pilgrimage. Services other than the water blessing are not held there, but it is one of the most recognizable places on the whole grounds of Mt. St. Macrina. To take this shrine down or massively retool it would be a huge financial undertaking for the Sisters of St. Basil (who are just trying to make ends meet as it is) and would probably not go over well with many of the pilgrims.

Quote
The good news is I heard they finally stopped having Eucharistic Adoration at this pilgrimage that thousands of Byzantine/Greek Catholics attend.

Well, no, they stopped with the Eucharistic procession and the Supplication to the Holy Eucharist service. Eucharistic Adoration, in the sense of the Eucharist being "exposed" on the altar for a period of time where the faithful simply pray before it in silence, was to my knowledge never a practice of that pilgrimage, neither in the 20 years I've been attending it, nor any time before that.

You "heard"... well, if you find that so objectionable and seeing as how it's not done, why don't you come and see for yourself?  Grin
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« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2008, 12:50:56 PM »

In a lot of ways what you say is true, in my (admittedly limited) experience.  My husband grew up with, and loves, the old Slavonic liturgy, and has been very saddened by the suppression of Slavonic in the "new regime".  He's a cantor (and has trained me to be one too), and our priest allows us to sing Slavonic in the paraliturgical hymns (before/after the liturgy), which is nice.  But certainly not the same.

And as a "cradle Catholic" it smacks all too loudly of the clumsy and very unpastoral suppression of Latin some 40-50 years ago.  That's being reversed, somewhat, today.  But too little, too late for all the people who became disillusioned and left the Church -- even lost their faith altogether -- because of the way they were treated.

And seeing it all happening again in the Byzantine (Greek Catholic) rite is like "deja vu all over again"!

Still ... with all the flaws and all the problems ... I love the church we attend now so much, especially the people - which is why I've decided to tarry there, for a while at least. 


The new liturgy of Pittsburgh in the Byzantine Catholic Church USA is vastly different than the liturgy used before.  Lex Orendi Lex Credendi is a very important principle.

Hymns before the Divine Liturgy is a Greek Catholic thing, not an Orthodox thing.   Hymns before Vespers is ok (like Angni Parthene) but singing "A New Commandment" before Divine Liturgy is really a Liturgics no-no in the Eastern Orthodox praxis.

Banning Slavonic in Liturgy was one of the most idiotic Roman Catholic things done lately in the world of the Byzantine Catholic Church.  The choice of what language to use should be left up to the people at the parish level.  It just shows who wears the pants and what they think of the people left in the pews. 

Nothing is really being reversed.   You can add incense, take away Stations of the Cross, have a bishop vest in front of the congregation all you want but when you slice and dice the liturgicon and teach and require Roman Catholic teachings (at least from the hierarchical level)... what does that really reverse.  It is an awkward see-saw.  Add some external that looks Eastern Orthodox and then force more Latin teachings or latin shortcuts.  And at the end of the day Rome still has final say.
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« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2008, 12:59:16 PM »

And with that I think I will have to leave this discussion.

Nothing personal against anyone, I know I am oversensitive, but some of the more anti-EC comments are bothering me, and making it more difficult for me to think clearly about the issue.

So God bless everyone, thanks for your comments and your insights; I really appreciate them. 

(BTW I'm not leaving the board; just this thread.  Thanks for understanding.  Smiley)
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« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2008, 01:01:34 PM »

I attend a Ukrainian parish from time to time and the Symbol of Faith has not changed, either in English or Ukrainian. The 1988 translation of the Divine Liturgy (English & Ukrainian) issued by the Synod of Ukrainian Catholic Bishops is still officially used. (Evidently there are other parishes that use an older English translation.) Where did you see something that corresponds to the Pittsburgh novota? (If "Diak" were here he'd be all over you for saying that, since you and I both know that the Ukrainian Catholics can do no wrong, at least, not compared to Pittsburgh.)

To be fair (can we try, please? you're starting to sound like a Bitter Betty), the place of the minor fasts was officially restored in the last few years in the Pittsburgh Metropolia. And while fasting practice is far from rigorous, there are a few more days now of obligatory abstinence than there had been a few years ago.

Do you mean that RC teachings are milked down, or that ours are milked down even further than RC "teachings" are?

We certainly have a long tradition of following the Latins in liturgical practice (e.g., cutting out vespers in favor of anticipated Saturday evening Divine Liturgies, adopting the Way of the Cross as the usual parochial Great Fast service), but restricted heavily by the Latins?  No, the Latins never forced us to do anything liturgically we didn't want to do ourselves. (Clerical celibacy is hardly a liturgical practice.)

What exactly are you referring to?  And how is that put into practice?

The official catechism in English for the North American Churches of the Byzantine Tradition is Light for Life, which doesn't talk about the Immaculate Conception of Mary, or Purgatory, or Indulgences, or even much about Papal Authority if at all.

The official catechetical texts for children in those Churches are the God With Us series, which likewise doesn't broach the subject of "Latin teachings." They are too busy teaching about the Liturgy, the Commandments, the Holy Mysteries, and living a moral life.

Someone can request a Divine Liturgy for the intention of the "Poor Souls" (i.e., in Purgatory), but I haven't heard of any clergy telling people they should do that. A parish here and there has Divine Mercy devotions but the bishops have never recommended such a thing.

The "giant Immaculate Conception shrine" is actually called the Lourdes Grotto which commemorates the appearance of the Theotokos in France where she supposedly said "I am the Immaculate Conception." That shrine is well over 60 years old, and it is massive, and it is a popular place of prayer & lighting of candles as well as being the locus for the water that is blessed by the hierarchs at the opening of the pilgrimage. Services other than the water blessing are not held there, but it is one of the most recognizable places on the whole grounds of Mt. St. Macrina. To take this shrine down or massively retool it would be a huge financial undertaking for the Sisters of St. Basil (who are just trying to make ends meet as it is) and would probably not go over well with many of the pilgrims.

Well, no, they stopped with the Eucharistic procession and the Supplication to the Holy Eucharist service. Eucharistic Adoration, in the sense of the Eucharist being "exposed" on the altar for a period of time where the faithful simply pray before it in silence, was to my knowledge never a practice of that pilgrimage, neither in the 20 years I've been attending it, nor any time before that.

You "heard"... well, if you find that so objectionable and seeing as how it's not done, why don't you come and see for yourself?  Grin


I am hardly making this up.  I was Greek Catholic.  For us and our Salvation was used in every Ukrainian Greek Catholic parish I've visited and the one I went to.  Your memory must be fading.  In 2005 they had Eucharistic Adoration after the long moleben/when everyone walked around singing the akathist. I remember asking a nun from the convent who was in front of me what was happening, eucharistic adoration she said.

So what if a few minor fasts were put in place.  That's not a restoration. 

I love the comment that the catechism classes teach barely anything on papal authority. 

I'm not a bitter betty I'm just someone who woke up and smelled the roses.  I no longer have any reason to justify the positions of the Carpathian mountain rooted Greek Catholic Churches united with Rome. Just because I am bring up some controversial things doesn't mean I have anything against anyone who worships in your churches.  I will however call things like I see them.   You have to realize I was Greek Catholic.  In fact I still have family in the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.  The other half of my family is Irish, literally, and very Roman Catholic.  I went to Roman Catholic high school.  I mean my resume can speak for itself in as much as I know what I am talking about in this topic.  I'm not some stranger who is Eastern Orthodox and is just making broad stroked generalizations.  I actually know what I am talking about, probably even more than I will ever make available on any internet message board.
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« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2008, 01:04:00 PM »

And with that I think I will have to leave this discussion.

Nothing personal against anyone, I know I am oversensitive, but some of the more anti-EC comments are bothering me, and making it more difficult for me to think clearly about the issue.

So God bless everyone, thanks for your comments and your insights; I really appreciate them. 

(BTW I'm not leaving the board; just this thread.  Thanks for understanding.  Smiley)

I never said anything against anyone that was EC.  You wanted some truths.  It is a shame that you were offended by anything I said, don't kill the messenger.  I didn't make the changes in the church I'm merely pointing them out. How is that anti-EC?  If the things I pointed out can be touted in your mind as "anti-ec" then you must blame your own church as being anti-ec as they are the ones that made the changes.
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« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2008, 01:14:25 PM »

For us and our Salvation was used in every Ukrainian Greek Catholic parish I've visited and the one I went to.  Your memory must be fading.

Give me some credit. I was last at the local Ukrainian Catholic parish for Liturgy three weeks ago, and was there four weeks before that. I'm not one of those sheep who supposedly doesn't even notice inclusive language, or whatever the latest insult against our people was today over at that "other board".  The 1988 Synodal translation does not translate the Symbol of Faith like that.

Quote
In 2005 they had Eucharistic Adoration after the long moleben/when everyone walked around singing the akathist.

You are mistaken. The Moleben to Jesus, Lover of Mankind is the service during which the Eucharistic procession took place and after which the Supplication to the Holy Eucharist was celebrated.

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I remember asking a nun from the convent who was in front of me what was happening, eucharistic adoration she said.

She was mistaken.

Quote
You have to realize I was Greek Catholic.

That is painfully obvious from the tone and tenor of your posts here as of late.  Your level of aggression is exceeded only by those who think they were once Greek Catholic because they parked their rears in a pew there for a couple years before realizing it wasn't good enough for them and now they need to tell actual Greek Catholics that it's not good enough for them, either.

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I went to Roman Catholic high school.

Where I guess they didn't teach you the difference between Eucharistic devotions and Eucharistic adoration, either.

So tell me, do Roman Catholics baptize by sprinkling?
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« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2008, 01:21:02 PM »

I never said anything against anyone that was EC.  You wanted some truths.  It is a shame that you were offended by anything I said, don't kill the messenger.  I didn't make the changes in the church I'm merely pointing them out. How is that anti-EC?  If the things I pointed out can be touted in your mind as "anti-ec" then you must blame your own church as being anti-ec as they are the ones that made the changes.

Not trying to kill any messengers, just trying to preserve some clarity in my mind.

I probably should have started this thread in Convert Issues.  I was really asking the questions because I was seriously interested in converting to EO.  Now, not so much.  But it's probably my own fault for not making it clear that I'm kind of in an oversensitive state of mind right now.  So once again, I apologize.   Sad
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« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2008, 01:30:20 PM »

The new liturgy of Pittsburgh in the Byzantine Catholic Church USA is vastly different than the liturgy used before.  Lex Orendi Lex Credendi is a very important principle.

But not important enough to be spelled correctly, I guess. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

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Hymns before the Divine Liturgy is a Greek Catholic thing, not an Orthodox thing.   Hymns before Vespers is ok (like Angni Parthene) but singing "A New Commandment" before Divine Liturgy is really a Liturgics no-no in the Eastern Orthodox praxis.

Then I should have told all the Orthodox I've worshipped with in Slovakia and Poland that they are compromised. Fortunately I knew all the paraliturgical hymns they were singing and so instead I just... sang!

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Banning Slavonic in Liturgy was one of the most idiotic Roman Catholic things done lately in the world of the Byzantine Catholic Church.  The choice of what language to use should be left up to the people at the parish level.  It just shows who wears the pants and what they think of the people left in the pews.

Here again, you really don't know what you are talking about.  If Slavonic had been "banned", I would be likewise outraged. (It may as well be, for all practical purposes, since the Slavonic pew and hymn books have been tossed.) But I have been singing as much Slavonic recently in my regular parishes as I was five years ago. In fact, in my home parish in PA, the members were recently surveyed about, among other things, how much Slavonic they wish to use on Sundays. Over 75 percent said they want some Slavonic on a regular basis!  Now the challenge is putting the texts back in the pews...

Actually, one bishop recently affirmed to his clergy that only English and Slavonic are permitted for parish use; no Spanish, no Slovak (fine with me!), etc. I wonder, then, how he proposes that his mandate to pastorally minister to Hungarian Byzantine Catholics, especially if they are just off the plane, be fulfilled without the use of liturgical Hungarian. One of the parish priests is looking at suspension for using Spanish in his church that is in the middle of a Spanish-speaking neighborhood! Now that is self-destructive idiocy.

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Rome still has final say.

Kind of funny, where the handpicked-by-Rome, Roman-educated, bishops in the Prešov and Mukačevo eparchies have taken the liturgical practice there "eastward" about 25 years in only about 5 years' time. In fact, both those places that were horribly Latinized look far more "Orthodox" now than any of us Pittsburgh Catholics in the U.S. do!  Rome did it, we didn't (and one of those bishops is a Latin Catholic, yet!).
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« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2008, 02:20:51 PM »

But not important enough to be spelled correctly, I guess. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Then I should have told all the Orthodox I've worshipped with in Slovakia and Poland that they are compromised. Fortunately I knew all the paraliturgical hymns they were singing and so instead I just... sang!

Here again, you really don't know what you are talking about.  If Slavonic had been "banned", I would be likewise outraged. (It may as well be, for all practical purposes, since the Slavonic pew and hymn books have been tossed.) But I have been singing as much Slavonic recently in my regular parishes as I was five years ago. In fact, in my home parish in PA, the members were recently surveyed about, among other things, how much Slavonic they wish to use on Sundays. Over 75 percent said they want some Slavonic on a regular basis!  Now the challenge is putting the texts back in the pews...

Actually, one bishop recently affirmed to his clergy that only English and Slavonic are permitted for parish use; no Spanish, no Slovak (fine with me!), etc. I wonder, then, how he proposes that his mandate to pastorally minister to Hungarian Byzantine Catholics, especially if they are just off the plane, be fulfilled without the use of liturgical Hungarian. One of the parish priests is looking at suspension for using Spanish in his church that is in the middle of a Spanish-speaking neighborhood! Now that is self-destructive idiocy.

Kind of funny, where the handpicked-by-Rome, Roman-educated, bishops in the Prešov and Mukačevo eparchies have taken the liturgical practice there "eastward" about 25 years in only about 5 years' time. In fact, both those places that were horribly Latinized look far more "Orthodox" now than any of us Pittsburgh Catholics in the U.S. do!  Rome did it, we didn't (and one of those bishops is a Latin Catholic, yet!).

It still takes this much justification as to the position of the Eastern Catholic Churches and how they vary or don't vary from the Latin Roman Catholic Churches.  Funny, as I know parishes that have banned Slavonic since the new liturgy was created.  When church members asked they were told the decision came down from the top.  I guess they lied to me then?  I'm also aware of where you got that "poll" info from.  Yes, everyone misses the Slavonic. 
Paraliturgical hymns whether sang in Orthodox parishes is a Carpatho-mountain custom.  It's a effect that is a carry over from the Greek Catholics. 
And looking Orthodox doesn't make a church Orthodox.  It is the Deposit of Faith that is the absolute litmus test.  That is why we pray in the Divine Liturgy that our Bishop may rightfully dispense the word of truth. What I mean by that is while so many often look at the practices of small traditions and say "we've gone this far east" that may be great and something to triumph over, however, the focus should be on the teachings of the faith.  You won't hear any argument from me that the Greek Catholics have come along way in that department.  Pick up any educational booklet from 50 years ago and look at what is being taught today.  Specifically the little missalettes (pardon my spelling). I have half a dozen around here but can't think of their names.  I even have one in Hungarian.

For another topic would be what is a Latinization and what isn't.  Because me and you both know that some small traditions in the Carpatho-mountain churches are in fact not or at least they are a melding of practices.
The thing that always gets me is when folks deem something not Orthodox enough (in Greek Catholic churches as well as Orthodox) and want to replace it with something from another small tradition.  The traditions of the Carpathian mountain region churches are unique enough to perplex say a person from the Greek or Russian tradition. 

Have you noticed that I haven't attacked any person in the Eastern Catholic Churches?  Just because I take issue with some of the practices doesn't mean I have anything against anyone. 

And sorry I placed e where the a should have been in my Latin.  I'd have you call my high school Latin teacher and yell at her but she got fired for stealing money from the school.
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« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2008, 09:26:29 AM »

Which Rome - old Rome or new Rome?
Old Rome.
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« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2008, 12:05:01 PM »

And sorry I placed e where the a should have been in my Latin.  I'd have you call my high school Latin teacher and yell at her but she got fired for stealing money from the school.

 Grin  Probably the only high school Latin teacher in who ever made any money!  laugh
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« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2008, 02:45:06 PM »

I don't have any links for you, but if you are able to find how the bishops of the cities in Greece signed their names at the various councils, you will discover that they did indeed consider themselves part of Rome's jurisdiction.

OK, I accept that Hierarchs in whatever modern Greece was called between the Roman Empire and 1054 referred to themselves as being under Old Rome.   Wink
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« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2008, 03:26:33 PM »

OK, I accept that Hierarchs in whatever modern Greece was called between the Roman Empire and 1054 referred to themselves as being under Old Rome.   Wink

Not the entire region, though, but a large part. I'll have to search for my map showing the sees as existing back then.
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« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2008, 02:35:22 AM »

Sorry, perhaps you're right, I may be thinking of the old movie, Shoes of the Fisherman - the Pope in that case was a Ukrainian Catholic. 

However, it *could* happen, in the sense that it's not illegal or impossible - sorta like I *could* be elected President, if all the circumstances were right.  Wink
I believe you were correct in your original statement.  There were several Popes from the Greek and Syrian Churches in the undivided Church.  Perhaps brother Heracliedes was thinking about the post-schism Church.

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« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2008, 02:57:13 AM »

I believe you were correct in your original statement.  There were several Popes from the Greek and Syrian Churches in the undivided Church.  Perhaps brother Heracliedes was thinking about the post-schism Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

Of course I was - as was pointed out ad infinitum.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2008, 02:58:39 AM »

I believe you were correct in your original statement.  There were several Popes from the Greek and Syrian Churches in the undivided Church.  Perhaps brother Heracliedes was thinking about the post-schism Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

Actually I think these were merely ethnic Greeks and Syrians and were bishops in the Roman see - not from other churches.
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« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2008, 05:43:43 AM »

Actually I think these were merely ethnic Greeks and Syrians and were bishops in the Roman see - not from other churches.
Pope St. Eleutherius was a deacon in the Greek Church before he was Pope.  I would need to do more research for other examples, but I don't have time.  He is the only one I know of off hand.

Blessings,
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« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2008, 06:07:09 AM »

Pope St. Eleutherius was a deacon in the Greek Church before he was Pope.  I would need to do more research for other examples, but I don't have time.  He is the only one I know of off hand.

Blessings,
Marduk

Unclear as "Greek" churches were in the Roman See as well, just as there were Latin churches in Constantinople (pre-1204).
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« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2008, 10:09:33 AM »

Greece was under the Patriarchate of the West until the time of St Photios, right? Asia Minor was EP-land. That is another factor.
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« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2008, 01:48:23 PM »

Greece was under the Patriarchate of the West until the time of St Photios, right? Asia Minor was EP-land. That is another factor.

Most of Greece, yes.
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« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2008, 01:58:23 PM »

Would it be safe to say that in the early Church, one could find more than one liturgical ritual in a particular "jurisdiction" or country?  I put "jurisdiction" in quotes because I think that is a 4th century development.

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« Reply #77 on: July 11, 2008, 02:17:40 PM »

Would it be safe to say that in the early Church, one could find more than one liturgical ritual in a particular "jurisdiction" or country?  I put "jurisdiction" in quotes because I think that is a 4th century development.

Blessings

One could assume so (a simple answer - a detailed one could be a master's thesis).
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« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2008, 01:26:59 PM »

I probably should have started this thread in Convert Issues.  I was really asking the questions because I was seriously interested in converting to EO.  Now, not so much.  But it's probably my own fault for not making it clear that I'm kind of in an oversensitive state of mind right now.  So once again, I apologize.   Sad

It's been a while since I posted and I thought I would update this (in case anyone remembers me or still cares) that I have decided to stay in the Byzantine Catholic Church for the time being.  I love the Orthodox Church and have learned a lot from my reading and from this forum.  However, without going into detail, I am still just way too emotionally invested in the Roman Catholic Church to be anywhere near ready to leave.

Hope I didn't ruffle anyone's feathers while I was here and thanks very much for all the helpful info I've gotten here!  (I'll still be reading the site but probably won't be posting too often.)  Thanks again!
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« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2008, 04:27:17 PM »

I probably should have started this thread in Convert Issues.  I was really asking the questions because I was seriously interested in converting to EO.  Now, not so much.  But it's probably my own fault for not making it clear that I'm kind of in an oversensitive state of mind right now.  So once again, I apologize.   Sad

It's been a while since I posted and I thought I would update this (in case anyone remembers me or still cares) that I have decided to stay in the Byzantine Catholic Church for the time being.  I love the Orthodox Church and have learned a lot from my reading and from this forum.  However, without going into detail, I am still just way too emotionally invested in the Roman Catholic Church to be anywhere near ready to leave.

Hope I didn't ruffle anyone's feathers while I was here and thanks very much for all the helpful info I've gotten here!  (I'll still be reading the site but probably won't be posting too often.)  Thanks again!

All this means is that you are where God wants you to be right now.  Do not make any rash decisions unless you are positive.  You are making a wise decision at this time.  Continue to read and research and lurk in websites such as this one.

Orthodoc

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