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Author Topic: Seats/Pews in Orthodox Churches?  (Read 7049 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« on: June 22, 2008, 11:07:26 PM »

I've been surprised recently on how many Orthodox churches (from pictures) have pews or chairs in very Catholic/Protestant fashion. Is it rare in America to find a church that has few chairs, or chairs that only line the walls (like the ones at St. Thomas that I attend while at school)?

I was just curious as to why, if Orthodox promote practicing ancient Christianity, do they allow for pews and chairs in very Catholic/Protestant fashion in their churches? It isn't something I'm upset about or that would ever threaten me coming to the church, it's just something i'm curious about...
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2008, 11:12:18 PM »

I was just curious as to why, if Orthodox promote practicing ancient Christianity ...

Orthodoxy doesn't practice ancient Christianity. This is something that I think needs to be taken out of peoples ideas about Orthodoxy. The Orthodox church is the continuation of the living tradition of the Ancient church but is not ancient Christianity.
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2008, 11:19:20 PM »

I've been surprised recently on how many Orthodox churches (from pictures) have pews or chairs in very Catholic/Protestant fashion. Is it rare in America to find a church that has few chairs, or chairs that only line the walls (like the ones at St. Thomas that I attend while at school)?

I was just curious as to why, if Orthodox promote practicing ancient Christianity, do they allow for pews and chairs in very Catholic/Protestant fashion in their churches? It isn't something I'm upset about or that would ever threaten me coming to the church, it's just something i'm curious about...


In ancient times, people probably sat on the floor.  Just because there were no pews doesn't mean they stood all the time.
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2008, 11:26:02 PM »

Quote
Orthodoxy doesn't practice ancient Christianity.
I thought I understood it as that Orthodoxy IS ancient Christianity. It is the church from the Apostles, continuing their traditions, their teachings, their practices.

If we do not worship or practice original Christianity, then what makes us different from the Catholics who also profess apostolic succession from Peter, or Protestants who claim they are Christians on the same level as early Christians, but do not practice ancient Christianity?
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2008, 11:26:47 PM »

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Is it rare in America to find a church that has few chairs, or chairs that only line the walls

Most of the Orthodox Churches that I've been in in America do indeed have pews.
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2008, 11:29:31 PM »

It that just because they have renovated non-Orthodox churches, or are they trying to change in order to cater to Protestants/Catholics?

It seems to me that if people sit in pews/chairs, especially those in rows, then they are simply an audience in a performance rather than doing as we are supposed to, and participating in the service and worshiping along with the Saints and Angels...

Forgive me if I sound condemning, I'm trying not to, but it just bothers me.
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2008, 11:33:22 PM »

It that just because they have renovated non-Orthodox churches, or are they trying to change in order to cater to Protestants/Catholics?

It seems to me that if people sit in pews/chairs, especially those in rows, then they are simply an audience in a performance rather than doing as we are supposed to, and participating in the service and worshiping along with the Saints and Angels...

Forgive me if I sound condemning, I'm trying not to, but it just bothers me.

In Australia under the Greek tradition we have pews here. But the fact is that people hardly sit in them, we only sit for the reading of the Gospel and the homily.
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2008, 11:38:18 PM »

How can you prostrate or kneel with pews though? Unless they are spaced far enough apart, which many pictures i've seen, barely show enough room to kneel.


That just isn't completely right IMO... It's too similar to Catholic and Protestant churches. It is like you are there for a performance and not to participate in worship. Young people (such as myself) are able to stand and even sit on the ground, why should we need extra pews and chairs for people that are able to stand the whole time? I'm not saying we ought to be forced to stand, but IMO, it's just giving in way too much to the typical American attitude.

I'm not condemning anyone who wants to sit... But IMO if you are able to stand, then stand, but if you are physically unable to, chairs ought to be provided. But those chairs are for those physically unable, not for those physical able.

This is more of how it ought to be in my honest opinion.
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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2008, 11:41:43 PM »

88devin12, I want to ask are you a convert? and if so what was your prior tradition/confession?
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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2008, 11:44:51 PM »

I guess it's just something that bothers me, I feel it is just catering to the same American attitude and idea that caused this sort of horrible thing:



I've not yet joined prodromas, I'm hoping to become catechumen here in a couple months when I return to college. I was Disciples of Christ and still attend there when not at college (as my dad is the minister at the local church). I came to Orthodoxy hoping to find ancient Christianity and the true way to worship and to bring myself closer to God. I am very thankful for DoC because it led me here, but I just feel that the OCA ought to reflect what the rest of the Orthodox world is doing.

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I'm not looking to changing anything in the Orthodox church, that is what I love about it, that it has remained relatively unchanged for 2000 years. That is why this was bugging me. I'd like to see the Orthodox Church change America, and not vice versa.
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« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 11:55:31 PM »

In Australia under the Greek tradition we have pews here. But the fact is that people hardly sit in them, we only sit for the reading of the Gospel and the homily.

Prodromas, Greeks sit during the Epistle, NEVER during the Gospel. In fact, as any Orthodox kid soon learns, your mother, baba, yiayia, etc, would soon make sure you were on your feet for the Gospel, the Creed, and the Lord's Prayer as an absolute minimum.

88Devin12, there are two main streams of opinion re "pews" v "no pews". Greeks and some others have generally adopted pews as mainstream in their churches, for a variety of reasons, whereas the Slavs (Russian, Serbian, etc) have generally maintained a "no pew" position, apart from a few chairs or stalls along the walls and back of the church for those who need them. I have a lifetime's experience of both Greek and Slavic Orthodox tradition, and, frankly, whether an Orthodox church has pews or not makes not a scrap of difference to its "authenticity" of worship. It is a matter of custom, not theology or doctrine, despite what some try to say.

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« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2008, 11:58:00 PM »

Prodromas, Greeks sit during the Epistle, NEVER during the Gospel.

Thank you LBK, I always get the order mixed up as our liturgies are all in Koine Greek and I haven't always had the chance to hear it in English (But that is a whole other problem).
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« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2008, 11:58:32 PM »

Devin, you might want to take a look at this thread where we just recently discussed this issue.

Pews in the Orthodox Church
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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2008, 12:00:55 AM »

Prodromas, this may help: The Epistle always comes before the Gospel. And it's easy to tell which of the readings it is, in every "flavour" of Orthodox church (Greek, Slavic, Romanian, etc), as the Epistle is always read by a layman, not the priest.

I would also recommend you get yourself a copy of the "little black book" of the Divine Liturgy which has the Liturgy in Greek and English side-by-side. It's been around since at least the early 1970s, and still readily available all over the English-speaking world. Your church probably stocks it.
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« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2008, 12:13:28 AM »

Thank you for the replies.

I guess I just like our parish because of it's lack of pews and how the chairs are arranged around the walls. We can interact more with the Priest, and sometimes, if there are few of us, he has encouraged us to move in closer during Vespers.
I also like how the Priest can walk among the people and as I said, interact with you.

As much as I love my dad, our DoC church just isn't like that. We sit and sing hymns, pray, and listen to his sermon. Often 30 people will be spread out in a sanctuary w/ pews meant for 180.

But, if worshiping in that manner benefits the person, then I don't see anything wrong with it, but I personally believe it's better for me with no pews and to feel the discomfort of standing and often prostrating with the parishoners and Priest.
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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2008, 12:20:20 AM »

I've been surprised recently on how many Orthodox churches (from pictures) have pews or chairs in very Catholic/Protestant fashion. Is it rare in America to find a church that has few chairs, or chairs that only line the walls (like the ones at St. Thomas that I attend while at school)?

I think that the traditional pew-less layout is slowly becoming more common in America.  Many newer parishes and missions I know of are pew-less, and intend to remain that way.

Older parishes are more likely to have pews, for a variety of reasons.  Perhaps this will change over time, but it is difficult (and expensive) to remove pews once they have been installed.  It doesn't necessarily imply that the current priest or congregation is specifically in favor of pews.
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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2008, 12:22:39 AM »

Oh, I guess I didn't think about the cost... I was just thinking all pews were situated like my family's DoC church, as they are only screwed down, so you just unscrew them and can remove them.
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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2008, 01:31:01 AM »

I thought I understood it as that Orthodoxy IS ancient Christianity. It is the church from the Apostles, continuing their traditions, their teachings, their practices.

If we do not worship or practice original Christianity, then what makes us different from the Catholics who also profess apostolic succession from Peter, or Protestants who claim they are Christians on the same level as early Christians, but do not practice ancient Christianity?

Perhaps you are mixing a little of the sacredness of the Holy Tradition of our faith with the natural progress of externals. We do continue the traditions, teachings and practices of the Apostles in the sense that we worship pretty much as they did; but still with some changes that don't effect Holy Tradition. For instance, if we imagine that the Apostles ever took the Eucharist from a spoon as we do, we would be very mistaken. Pews won't affect Holy Tradition any more than driving to church in a Ferrari rather than a horse-drawn cart.  Although, the horse-drawn cart would be fun, as long as I didn't have to clean up after the horse.  Grin
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2008, 03:11:12 AM »

Perhaps you are mixing a little of the sacredness of the Holy Tradition of our faith with the natural progress of externals. We do continue the traditions, teachings and practices of the Apostles in the sense that we worship pretty much as they did; but still with some changes that don't effect Holy Tradition. For instance, if we imagine that the Apostles ever took the Eucharist from a spoon as we do, we would be very mistaken. Pews won't affect Holy Tradition any more than driving to church in a Ferrari rather than a horse-drawn cart.  Although, the horse-drawn cart would be fun, as long as I didn't have to clean up after the horse.  Grin

That's what I was trying to convey 88Devin12. Except Riddikulus has done so in a beautifully succinct fashion thank you.
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2008, 03:54:42 AM »

That's what I was trying to convey 88Devin12. Except Riddikulus has done so in a beautifully succinct fashion thank you.

Succinct? Moi? After the horrible faux par I made on that other thread, I thank you for this little boast to my morale, prodromas!   laugh
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2008, 04:34:27 AM »

The newest in pew design!

Check these pews out!  65% increase in exit space between rows!
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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2008, 04:36:48 AM »

The newest in pew design!

Check these pews out!  65% increase in exit space between rows!

They're HORRIBLE!! OK in a picture theatre or an office, but far too ghastly for the house of God .... Shocked
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2008, 04:37:42 AM »

The newest in pew design!

Check these pews out!  65% increase in exit space between rows!

My Jewish friend was telling me how they had seats that warm up. That would be nice on a winter morning Cheesy
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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2008, 04:39:10 AM »

Perhaps you are mixing a little of the sacredness of the Holy Tradition of our faith with the natural progress of externals. We do continue the traditions, teachings and practices of the Apostles in the sense that we worship pretty much as they did; but still with some changes that don't effect Holy Tradition. For instance, if we imagine that the Apostles ever took the Eucharist from a spoon as we do, we would be very mistaken. Pews won't affect Holy Tradition any more than driving to church in a Ferrari rather than a horse-drawn cart.  Although, the horse-drawn cart would be fun, as long as I didn't have to clean up after the horse.  Grin

If I have my history right, the introduction of the communion spoon was meant to prevent the Eucharist from being accidentally dropped by the laity.  As the Church grew, there were also concerns about the Eucharist being taken out of the church, handled with unclean hands, and so on.  The change was motivated by reverence for the Body and Blood of Christ.

In contrast, rows of pews were popularized in Protestant churches to allow the congregation to sit quietly during the lengthy sermons.  Here is an interesting article from an OCA-affiliated publication on the subject:  http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/pews.aspx

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« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2008, 04:40:58 AM »

The newest in pew design!

Check these pews out!  65% increase in exit space between rows!

Is outrage! Shocked Seriously though, they look rather snazzy. I wonder if the seats lift individually.
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« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2008, 09:24:37 AM »

It is like you are there for a performance and not to participate in worship.

Well, maybe it is for you, but that is not the case for me or for any Anglican service that I've attended.  We are not there for a "performance" but we *are* participating.  This may be a case of ones personal perceptions not applying in all cases.

Quote
I'm not condemning anyone who wants to sit... But IMO if you are able to stand, then stand, but if you are physically unable to, chairs ought to be provided. But those chairs are for those physically unable, not for those physical able.

Physical ability is not an on/off binary situation.  Some may be able to stand part of the time, or there may be other reasons.

Just to add one other thought here.  Just as clothing needs a certain level of technology and materials, so too with furniture.  Trees don't need to just be cut down, but shaped in to boards for example.  Then there are other tools and methods needed to connect the pieces.  We are able to make alot more in the way of chairs and benches and other items in a shorter time then was possible 1,000 or 1,500 or 2,000 years ago.  So as was written above people could sit on the floor (look at traditional Japanese living for an example that also has fewer kinds of furniture then may be found in industrial countries today.)

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« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2008, 02:58:41 PM »

How many 'pew' threads do we have now?
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« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2008, 03:28:49 PM »

How many 'pew' threads do we have now?

Pews in the Orthodox Church
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12140.0.html

Help finding published article on Pews
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3245.0.html

Pews and the Organ
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15090.0.html

Beards and Tradition (covered the subject ad nauseam)
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12921.0.html

Why do so many Orthodox Churches have pews and kneeler?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,231.0.html

Liberalism in Orthodoxy (I think it was debated in here too)
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13616.0.html

There are probably more (including a small number of Reported post threads and whatnot), but this list should suffice for the moment.
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« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2008, 04:10:06 PM »

When I was in Russia I attended The Easter Service at Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Nizhniy Novgorod. The Russian don't use pews but allow chairs for people who can not stand for long periods of time. For lot of people who are in their 50's and up can't stand for long periods of time. Thats is why you see pews in the Orthodox Churchs here in America. I know what it is like to stand long periods of time as I have a bad low back. I wish I could sit.



I've been surprised recently on how many Orthodox churches (from pictures) have pews or chairs in very Catholic/Protestant fashion. Is it rare in America to find a church that has few chairs, or chairs that only line the walls (like the ones at St. Thomas that I attend while at school)?

I was just curious as to why, if Orthodox promote practicing ancient Christianity, do they allow for pews and chairs in very Catholic/Protestant fashion in their churches? It isn't something I'm upset about or that would ever threaten me coming to the church, it's just something i'm curious about...
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« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2008, 05:06:00 PM »

Orthodoxy doesn't practice ancient Christianity.

The Sixth Nicene Canon of the Ecumenical Councils teaches us to keep the ancient customs.

Faith and Practice cannot be separated.

If things are to work out we must get it right.



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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2008, 05:10:13 PM »

^ Taking things out of context as usual?
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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2008, 05:21:17 PM »

The Sixth Nicene Canon of the Ecumenical Councils teaches us to keep the ancient customs.

Faith and Practice cannot be separated.

If things are to work out we must get it right.


Then all of our bishops better start dressing like St. John Chrysostom (short hair, trimmed beards and no sakkos or crowns)
Long hair and untrimmed beards are an innovation!  Shocked   
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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2008, 07:21:09 PM »

I think adding pews allows for people to sit when they are uncomfortable though... Yet isn't a part of the worship, and even parts of Pascha/Lent about the discomfort you feel during the service?

I tend to completely agree with the article in the link posted on here earlier:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/pews.aspx

If older people cannot sit, then they ought to be provided chairs, but they shouldn't be provided for all people in the church, in my opinion.
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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2008, 09:25:09 PM »

Ok, so here is the deal.

The most important thing in Orthodoxy is not pews (or lack thereof), it is not whether priests have beards or not, it is not a dress code, it is not men on one side, women on the other, and it is not whether some bishop on some other continent wants to commune with heterodox. The most important thing is Christ Jesus, Who deigned to come down from heaven and take on our human nature, Who was persecuted and mocked and betrayed, Who was crucified for us and our salvation between two thieves, conquering sin; Who descended into and loosed the Gates of Hades, and Who on the Third Day rose from the dead, granting each and every one of us eternal life, if we could do such simple things as love God and love our neighbour.

That's it. The externals and the "small t" tradition only matter insofar as they help us acheive salvation. ANd if to achieve salvation we need to sit for most or all of the church services, then that is what we must do. The goal is theosis. The goal is not 4th century Greek recreationism (whatever the Greeks might say Tongue ).
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2008, 10:13:10 PM »

The Sixth Nicene Canon of the Ecumenical Councils teaches us to keep the ancient customs.

Faith and Practice cannot be separated.

If things are to work out we must get it right.

Ah yes John Alden your back and what an appropriate thread to post on *sigh*, Still trying to escape brother? or is that evil internet still keeping you back with us? Anyway this is a good example of what happens when people take the cannons and tradition to the point where they would rather drive a horse and cart to church instead of a car because it doesn't say it in the cannons. Its like the protestants with the Sola Scriptura to this extremist Orthodox position of Sola (or Mono?) Patristics and Sola Cannons like Orthodox spirituality can be summarised in words. For instance This poster says that chess is evil 88Devin12 because it was condemned at a particular council, do you play chess?
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2008, 10:22:41 PM »

What I really hate is the statstidia that don't have felt or rubber on the bottoms of the seats. When you put them down to sit they make a big noise. Noise is just bad in the church, there is no difference between this noise and the noise a cell phone makes. What is the point of not having pews if you bring your cell phone into church and make phone calls this is the real problem, and mini skirts. The girls may cover their heads but then they wear mini skirts and distract everyone with their nice long legs. Thank God there are no pews then we might see even more then their long beautiful legs. Even worst then legs though is the priest with the long hair, it gets all greasy then it turns the gold on the vestments green. Speaking of green vestments this is proper color for Pentecost but not for Palm Sunday. Why would anyone wear green vestments on Palm Sunday because everyone knows the proper color is gold not purple. Purple after all was the color of the Roman Senate. If you were a Senator in Rome you could wear a purple strip on your clothes. Speaking of the senate, if Barrack Obama wins the Presidential race he will in turn take away the Democrat majority in the Senate but that would be ok since his Vice President would be able to break the ties. I have way too many ties in my closet, some of them are from the 80's and are no longer wearable because they are out of style. When did it become the style to get tattoos? Tattoos are desecrating ones body much like pews desecrate the church buildings.
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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2008, 10:23:44 PM »

Ok, so here is the deal.

The most important thing in Orthodoxy is not pews (or lack thereof), it is not whether priests have beards or not, it is not a dress code, it is not men on one side, women on the other, and it is not whether some bishop on some other continent wants to commune with heterodox. The most important thing is Christ Jesus, Who deigned to come down from heaven and take on our human nature, Who was persecuted and mocked and betrayed, Who was crucified for us and our salvation between two thieves, conquering sin; Who descended into and loosed the Gates of Hades, and Who on the Third Day rose from the dead, granting each and every one of us eternal life, if we could do such simple things as love God and love our neighbour.

That's it. The externals and the "small t" tradition only matter insofar as they help us acheive salvation. ANd if to achieve salvation we need to sit for most or all of the church services, then that is what we must do. The goal is theosis. The goal is not 4th century Greek recreationism (whatever the Greeks might say Tongue ).

You changed your nick! Is outrage! And might I just say that I agree completely with what you say above. But to be honest with you, in my experience I have found "the Greeks" are usually great about natural transistions concerning externals and "small t" traditions; it's converts who seem to take issue. Perhaps this is due to misconception about the importance of externals, and I truly don't mean to give offence, but so often I have seen inquirers and converts who have expectations far beyond that which is reasonable and who then look down on the cradle orthodox for being compromisers.
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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2008, 10:46:14 PM »

You changed your nick! Is outrage! And might I just say that I agree completely with what you say above. But to be honest with you, in my experience I have found "the Greeks" are usually great about natural transistions concerning externals and "small t" traditions; it's converts who seem to take issue. Perhaps this is due to misconception about the importance of externals, and I truly don't mean to give offence, but so often I have seen inquirers and converts who have expectations far beyond that which is reasonable and who then look down on the cradle orthodox for being compromisers.

An interesting podcast by Fr. Joseph Honeycutt was about a movie about the an Orthodox super hero anyway the 3 part podcast was an allegory for the situation of the Orthodox church and other christian confessions and one of the interesting parts for me was the "actors" who were not allowed in the movie one was "akriva man" who kept to the cannons completely and condemned anyone who didn't and "eiconomia man" who seemed to always want more dispensations from the Bishops and the preists and they were saying how these two actors are stereotypes of converts and cradle Orthodox respectively.
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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2008, 10:52:58 PM »

are you suggesting I'm condemning anyone? I hope you aren't because that isn't what I've been doing, and I don't want anyone to misunderstand me.
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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2008, 10:56:44 PM »

are you suggesting I'm condemning anyone? I hope you aren't because that isn't what I've been doing, and I don't want anyone to misunderstand me.

Lord have mercy on me. Im sorry 88Devin12 that post before was not directed at you at all. It was just an interesting thing I heard in response Riddikulus. Also take note that I said "stereotype". Sorry for the confusion brother.
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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2008, 10:59:22 PM »

Lol, I was referring to those Greeks who believe Greece was never pagan and who consider "Hellenism=Orthodoxy." But your point on the converts is well taken, although I might point out that if cradles and converts learned from each other, the Church would be much better off.

Certainly I have been guilty of convertitis myself. WHat I had to learn was not to worry so much over who sits and who stands, but rather to worry about my own sins.

To paraphrase St. Theophan the Recluse "Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins..." Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2008, 11:30:38 PM »

are you suggesting I'm condemning anyone? I hope you aren't because that isn't what I've been doing, and I don't want anyone to misunderstand me.

Heavens no! You should ask questions, and asking questions isn't taking issue. Sorry, I should have been clearer in what I said. I wasn't pointing a finger at anyone, and I certainly didn't want any passing reader to imagine that I was out to offend converts. It's just that most of us who are converts know what the dangers are of being "more Orthodox than the Orthodox". I always find it's bad enough being a flawed human-being in the first place, so when I converted to Orthodoxy I was very cautious not to add "convert issues" to my many sins! Grin Just remember that theosis is the most important thing; not pews or any other external.
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« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2008, 11:34:48 PM »

Lol, I was referring to those Greeks who believe Greece was never pagan and who consider "Hellenism=Orthodoxy."

Oh duh! I'm sorry! Embarrassed

Quote
But your point on the converts is well taken, although I might point out that if cradles and converts learned from each other, the Church would be much better off.

Indeed.

Quote
Certainly I have been guilty of convertitis myself. WHat I had to learn was not to worry so much over who sits and who stands, but rather to worry about my own sins.

To paraphrase St. Theophan the Recluse "Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins..." Smiley

Yes, this is the crucial factor. Amen to that!
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« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2008, 11:46:02 PM »


Quote
To paraphrase St. Theophan the Recluse "Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins..." Smiley

At the risk of taking your use of this famous quote out of context, I will say that I do appreciate it if a brother or sister comes to me in love and points out some area of concern to me. To simply say" Why worry about them? Just study your own sins." is fine, but sometimes I can't quite get used to this notion that nobody should get involved in anybody else's life for fear of judging. If a person's eternal soul is endangered, shouldn't we care enough to step in? If your child is ready to endanger himself do you just sit by and shrug and say, "oh well. God will take care of him. why should I care?" No, I can't quite agree with that.
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« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2008, 12:04:16 AM »

Speaking of green vestments this is proper color for Pentecost but not for Palm Sunday. Why would anyone wear green vestments on Palm Sunday because everyone knows the proper color is gold not purple.

Umm, Arimathea, gold may be the correct vestment colour for Palm Sunday in the Greek church, but not in the Russian. Green is the colour of vestments and drapes for Palm Sunday, Pentecost, and for the feasts of prophets and holy fools. Trust me.
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« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2008, 12:05:42 AM »

Umm, Arimathea, gold may be the correct vestment colour for Palm Sunday in the Greek church, but not in the Russian. Green is the colour of vestments and drapes for Palm Sunday, Pentecost, and for the feasts of prophets and holy fools. Trust me.
You don't get the dripping sarcasm in arimethea's post?
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« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2008, 12:09:30 AM »

I saw the sarcasm in his post all tight, Peter, but the point about the vestment colour was one I simply had to make, grumpy old soul that I am .... Tongue
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« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2008, 09:37:11 AM »

Umm, Arimathea, gold may be the correct vestment colour for Palm Sunday in the Greek church, but not in the Russian. Green is the colour of vestments and drapes for Palm Sunday, Pentecost, and for the feasts of prophets and holy fools. Trust me.

Why should I trust you? You are posting in this thread so I can't take you seriously because this thread must be a joke. You claim green is the color for Prophets and Palm Sunday so you do not go along with the ancient traditions of the church. Green for these feast are very modern innovations. Even more modern then pews in the church. So using green vestments for these feast are ok but pews are not. It is enough to make ones head explode.
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« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2009, 12:07:36 PM »

During what moments do you (GOAs and AOAs) sit during the Divine Liturgy apart from Epistle and sermon?
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« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2009, 02:31:42 PM »

During what moments do you (GOAs and AOAs) sit during the Divine Liturgy apart from Epistle and sermon?

They sit the whole time.  In fact, most times they just lay down on the pews and sleep.
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« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2009, 03:41:23 PM »

During what moments do you (GOAs and AOAs) sit during the Divine Liturgy apart from Epistle and sermon?

Most people in Greek parishes tend to sit during the litanies and during the Communion of the clergy, when the doors of the iconostasis are shut, but you'll also find a number of people (at least in the UK) who stand throughout.
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« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2009, 03:44:55 PM »

During what moments do you (GOAs and AOAs) sit during the Divine Liturgy apart from Epistle and sermon?

They sit the whole time.  In fact, most times they just lay down on the pews and sleep.

I haven't caught the joke.
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« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2009, 04:05:37 PM »

During what moments do you (GOAs and AOAs) sit during the Divine Liturgy apart from Epistle and sermon?

They sit the whole time.  In fact, most times they just lay down on the pews and sleep.

I haven't caught the joke.

That's because if there was one, it is pretty bad.
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« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2009, 05:38:52 PM »

During what moments do you (GOAs and AOAs) sit during the Divine Liturgy apart from Epistle and sermon?

Most people in Greek parishes tend to sit during the litanies and during the Communion of the clergy, when the doors of the iconostasis are shut, but you'll also find a number of people (at least in the UK) who stand throughout.

Eh, it's a regional practice.  In the US, in most of the printed books, directions tell people to sit (a) during the great litany after the commemoration of the bishop, throughout the antiphons, until the third antiphon and entrance; (b) during the Epistle; (c) during the Sermon; (d) during the completion litany after the Great Entrance.
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« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2009, 07:13:22 PM »

ACROD also has similar sit/stand/kneel rules. I ignore them all and just stand unless it's a weekday Divine Liturgy (or Pre-sanctified).
My GOA parish prints the rules above, but half of us just stand anyway...not bad for Greeks.  Wink
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« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2009, 08:47:57 PM »

That's because if there was one, it is pretty bad.

Guilty as charged!
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« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2009, 09:21:15 PM »

ACROD also has similar sit/stand/kneel rules. I ignore them all and just stand unless it's a weekday Divine Liturgy (or Pre-sanctified).
My GOA parish prints the rules above, but half of us just stand anyway...not bad for Greeks.  Wink

Not bad at all.

I preferred our outlook at Seminary: stand when you can, sit when you need to, (on weekdays) kneel when moved to; but have the good sense to stand at some appropriate places (like the Gospel reading).
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« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2009, 09:39:21 PM »

My sister goes to the Greek Cathedral in Richmond, VA. She says they have lights on the iconostasis that light up when people are supposed to stand, and go off when they are supposed to sit.  Cheesy
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« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2009, 10:05:56 PM »

Supplementing "cleveland's" #53,

it's also common in GOAA parishes to sit after the blessing after "It is truly meet...," "May the Mercy of our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, be with you,"  and return to standing for the recitation of The Lord's Parayer.

As to Reply #57, the oldest GOAA parish in Cleveland, Ohio has electric candle lights on either side of the Royal Entrance of the Icon Screen, which a previous presiding priest installed many years ago, when he implemented order in a rather unruly congregation, for "stand/sit" guidance; however, his successor did not use those lights for that purpose.
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« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2009, 10:06:30 PM »

There are some chairs around in my church, but it's a small parish, and almost exclusively converts with only a few exceptions.  All of the "ethnic" parishes in the city have pews.  People stand quite a bit during the liturgy, but only those of us in our twenties and maybe thirties stand the whole time.  The high-schoolers are too bored to stand when they don't have too, and I am sympathetic for the older ones in the parish.  They deserve to sit sometimes!  They are older!
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