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Author Topic: Music and Ridding things from your life?  (Read 25920 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« on: June 22, 2008, 08:34:16 PM »

Ok, recently have had more inspiration to remove some things from my life, mainly video games (as i've been addicted for 15 years or more) as well as possessions, books, etc... that I have no use for anymore.

I've also been thinking about narrowing down the music I listen to. I love various sorts of music other than Orthodox. Including Country, Rock (modern and classic), Heavy Metal, Hard Rock, Alternative, etc...
One of the main bands I've been listening to is Disturbed. However, as I go on, i've been wondering if I should eliminate all types of music from my list except for Orthodox.
_________________________
Disturbed is a great band with great tunes, but sometimes it can be certainly dark. The lead singer, David Draiman is Jewish, but isn't really in connection with his faith as much as his family members.
One of their songs, Prayer is basically a conversation between David and God after his grandfather (whom he never got close to after separating from) died, it's basically him telling God that after everything bad that has happened to him, he is saying simply to hit him harder. The main chorus goes:
"Let me enlighten you
This is the way I pray
[Chorus]
Livin just isn't hard enough
Burn me alive, inside
Livin my life's not hard enough
Take everything away "

Inside the Fire is a song about the suicide of his girlfriend. It's a conversation between him and Satan. And how Satan was tempting him to kill himself to "rejoin" his love in "hell". At the beginning of the video, he says if someone is considering suicide to seek out the suicide hotline and get help. He isn't advocating suicide but expressing his grief and struggle he had with the event. (as he was the one to find her)

Stricken is a song presumably about a girlfriend that has betrayed him or caused him harm. The beginning words and chorus goes:
"AH! AH! AH! OW!
You walk on like a woman in suffering
Won't even bother now to tell me why
You come along, letting all of us savor the moment
Leaving me broken another time

You come on like a bloodstained hurricane
Leave me alone, let me be this time
You carry on like a holy man pushing redemption
I don't want to mention, the reason I know

That I am Stricken and can't let you go
When the heart is cold, there's no hope, and we know
That I am crippled by all that you've done
Into the abyss will I run!-"
__________________________

While these songs do have meaning and even sometimes positive morales, I sometimes don't think they are really benefiting me.
I wonder if I should just remove the majority of my music from my life.

What does everyone else think? Should I take the step now and remove them?
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2008, 09:22:51 PM »

I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but just recently I sold off a lot of my music, because I've been thinking along the same lines. I sold off all the Black Sabbath, Mastodon, Megadeth, etc. that I had. I don't think that this is something that you have to do to be a good Orthodox Christian, I just decided that the time was right to do it, and that I was at a place in my life where I wanted to do it. What I have left is mostly Christian music, bands like Tourniquet, Six Feet Deep, and so forth. Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2008, 10:31:24 PM »

I would be careful not to cut everything out of your life at once. If you realize it's destructive, then remove it slowly, but trying to do it all at once can make one feel overwhelmed. And for myself, I think that's when a truly slip into self-destructive habits.

I used to listen to rock (Franz Ferdinand and alternative stuff), but once I became Orthodox I lost the enjoyment and listen almost entirely to chant. Of course, I still like some songs from Tool.  Wink
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2008, 10:51:59 PM »

I don't think you necessarily need to give up all non-Christian influences in your life. The shadows can mislead and frighten, but they can also reveal to us the source of light. For my part, I've been listening to calmer music. My recent finds have been the Killers and Death Cab for Cutie, and I've been known to while away a lazy Saturday with non-stop U2. Could just be that I'm getting older, though.

Chant is beautiful, and I've always had a soft spot for choirs, but you've got to remember that we're not monastics. We still live in the world, with people of the world. Perhaps God could actually use Pink Floyd to help someone straighten their life out. Stranger things have happened.
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2008, 11:14:20 PM »

Perhaps God could actually use Pink Floyd to help someone straighten their life out. Stranger things have happened.

Something is wrong with Pink Floyd!!!  Shocked
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2008, 11:55:07 PM »

 I asked my spiritual father this question years ago and he said not to listen to secular music.

Music has a way of penetrating the soul. I don't know about you, but when I listen to musical lyrics the words tend to go around and around in my mind. This can more of a negative impact on your life than you might think since the feelings and emotions that modern music often focuses on is not exactly uplifting stuff.

On the other hand the more you listen to liturgical music and chanting, you will have God pleasing words going through your mind throughout your day, even when you aren't focusing on praying.

I know it's hard to separate from the world around us, but it's ultimately what we are called upon to do as Orthodox Christians. Giving up secular (and often spiritually harmful) music its just another choice we have, and one more opportunity to become closer to God. It's probably unrealistic to drop everything at once. Try to weed out the most overtly offensive things first and then work your way down from there. Eventually with God's help you'll have detached yourself from all those unnecessary and worldly things.
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2008, 12:19:03 AM »

mariner, I sure can identify with that... My mood and everything is effected by the music I listen to...

I want to be as close to the Saints and Monastics as I can. I don't ever want to become a monastic, but I'd still like to become like many of them spiritually.
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2008, 08:15:26 AM »

(snip) i've been wondering if I should eliminate all types of music from my list except for Orthodox. (snip)

No, don't  Grin The sudden change might end you up in a mental institution (worst case scenario).  Cheesy

Seriously though. There are a few people I know that has gone trough a radical conversion at a Pentecostal church in my area. They have ceased drinking any kind of alcohol, thrown away all their music, and done all kinds of other more or less strange things. They have been able to keep up with this a few months to a few years before suffering the backlash. At that point they start going to night clubs to drink heavily, sometimes take drugs and generally behave immorally. I really do blame the Pentecostal church for encouraging this sudden and total "commitment to Christ".

The only words of wisdom I can provides is "You do not find God by fleeing the devil, but you might flee the devil if you find God" (please note that I am horribly unqualified to give any sort of advice).

My line of thought is that I should strive to do what is good instead of focusing my energy on abstaining from unnecessary things. In time the unnecessary things seems to get left behind.

My best wishes,
Robert
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2008, 09:17:34 AM »


My line of thought is that I should strive to do what is good instead of focusing my energy on abstaining from unnecessary things. In time the unnecessary things seems to get left behind.

My best wishes,
Robert

This is so true. Slowly, slowly, was my first spiritual father's advice. All things in God's good time.
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2008, 10:16:03 AM »



The only words of wisdom I can provides is "You do not find God by fleeing the devil, but you might flee the devil if you find God" (please note that I am horribly unqualified to give any sort of advice).



I have been looking for an aphorism to describe my feelings on the subject and you, dear sir, have it.  I have a friend who has recently returned to his Christian faith after years of spiritual wandering and am afraid he'll end up burning out with all the stuff he's doing.  Your words are the perfect panacea for him, I think.

And for the OP.  Instead of automatically tossing things aside, I would advise to focus on the "good things" (ie prayer, attending services, etc) and soon enough, all the bad, negative things will fall away as your mind gets properly attuned to the things of God.  You'll eventually have little interest in anything but that which edifies and is profitable for your soul.

And make sure you do it all in concert with a spiritual director.
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2008, 10:38:11 AM »

Greetings Forum,

The godly Russian Patriarch Joasaph I, in the year 1636 (perhaps we would call him an Old Believer) banned all foreign musical instruments. Joasaph I said that "only bells, drums and horns call the angels, all other musical instruments call the demons". So, by going house to house he had all the devilish instruments loaded up and ceremoniously drug across the river where once there they were all destroyed.

Forgive, John
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2008, 10:51:24 AM »

Greetings Forum,

The godly Russian Patriarch Joasaph I, in the year 1636 (perhaps we would call him an Old Believer) banned all foreign musical instruments. Joasaph I said that "only bells, drums and horns call the angels, all other musical instruments call the demons". So, by going house to house he had all the devilish instruments loaded up and ceremoniously drug across the river where once there they were all destroyed.

Forgive, John

Interesting.  Did the good Patriarch have any kind of catechesis to explain Psalm 71: 22 in light of his prohibitions?

Quote from: KJV
I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

The psaltery is, of course, a stringed instrument.
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2008, 11:21:20 AM »


Quote
I would be careful not to cut everything out of your life at once. If you realize it's destructive, then remove it slowly, but trying to do it all at once can make one feel overwhelmed. And for myself, I think that's when a truly slip into self-destructive habits.


Yes, this is how I felt when I gave up all my Engelbert Humperdinck records  Cheesy

j/k
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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2008, 11:42:01 AM »

While I would agree some music is harmful to the soul I would be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.
This kind of zeal could lead to burn out in just a couple of years.

I remember a monk-priest years ago telling my friends and I never to attend ballets, operas or the circus because they were inherently evil. He ended up disobeying his own bishop and being defrocked and excommunicated a few years later.

You know, most ethnic Orthodox have listened to other types of music through the centuries and have still maintained their faith. If you go to any ethnic Orthodox festival you will hear folk music and modern music. They have traditions of dancing.

Moderation is key if you plan to stay Orthodox for the rest of your life.

ps. a word of advice: take what other young, male converts tell you about Orthodoxy with a grain of salt. Especially if they are unemployed.


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« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2008, 11:46:59 AM »


Quote
I remember a monk-priest years ago telling my friends and I never to attend ballets, operas or the circus because they were inherently evil. He ended up disobeying his own bishop and being defrocked and excommunicated a few years later.

What if in following the monks' advice, you miss an opportunity to witness our faith?

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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2008, 12:49:25 PM »

What if in following the monks' advice, you miss an opportunity to witness our faith?



I never did follow his advice. If I had I would have ended up an "Orthodox" fundamentalist who would have been excommunicated by the Church. He took some folks with him.
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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2008, 05:04:51 PM »

Forgive, John
We forgive you for not knowing the difference between godliness and xenophobia.

Oddly enough, a Google search for this patriarch yielded only one result, a post you yourself wrote here: http://oldbelievers.wetpaint.com/thread/1013675/Vera+Strochilina/post/8307651/Vera+Strochilina. What evidence do we have that he even existed (besides your word of course)?
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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2008, 05:06:16 PM »

Hi Devin,

I come from perhaps the very opposite background as you; my church forbid even listening to tapes of religious music with instrumentation! So not only could we not listen to any secular music, but even religious instrumental music was verboten.

We were not monastics, but still in no way did it harm us, except now I have huge gaps in my musical repertoire which even time alone will never restore.

Having said that, I agree with what the majority have advised on this thread: don't do anything extreme-don't throw it all away in some impulsive act of righteous destruction! Just because something is secular doesn't mean it can't be helpful in some way. We as Christians must be light and salt, yes, but it's not wrong to admit that we also live in the world. There may come a time when your knowledge of current music may be a source of common ground between yourself and some lonely soul who might be seeking God. Who knows?  

I don't know if any of this makes sense, but please don't be rash! Just as I've tried to gradually ease into a more "permissive" lifestyle, you should ease into growing in Christ. I didn't feel it wise to go out suddenly and buy myself a tv, an ipod, all those decades of music I missed out on etc., but rather to slowly make the transition, not doing anything in a reactionary fashion.

Best wishes to you as you grow in wisdom, grace and humility!
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2008, 05:27:39 PM »

We forgive you for not knowing the difference between godliness and xenophobia.

Oddly enough, a Google search for this patriarch yielded only one result, a post you yourself wrote here: http://oldbelievers.wetpaint.com/thread/1013675/Vera+Strochilina/post/8307651/Vera+Strochilina. What evidence do we have that he even existed (besides your word of course)?

Mr. Y., the Patriarch Ioasaph I actually existed. He was enthroned in Moscow after the death of the Patriarch Filaret (who was known, before becoming a monk, as Prince Theodore Romanov, the father of the first Tsar of the Romanov dynasty, Michael I Romanov). It was in the year 1634, when Tsar Michael was still young, so Ioasaph was a kind of "father figure" to him, replacing his biological as well as spiritual father, Filaret. Ioasaph was from the city of Pskov, in Northwestern Russia, near the border with what now is Estonia and Latvia. From the description of his life and activities (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/arhiv/040601103214), it looks like he was a pretty decent man. I would think that one reason why Ioasaph was so strongly against musical instruments etc., was that at that time, in the 1620's-1630's, there appeared to be a great disorder in the way services were conducted in Russian churches. For example, a weird custom emerged, allowing several choirs to chant different elements of the liturgy at the same time (sometimes up to 6 choirs chanted simultaneously), creating an impression of a total wild chaos. So, maybe people began to associate church services with something racy Smiley. The Patriarch wanted to put an end to this, and his total ban on musical instruments could be a sort of "side effect." 
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2008, 05:30:55 PM »

Thank you for the information. This was most helpful.
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2008, 06:24:43 PM »

Thank you for the information. This was most helpful.

You are most welcome. I am sorry if I "side-tracked" this discussion. I knew nothing about Ioasaph I, so I became curious and, knowing Russian, quickly found this information. Closer to the topic, I think this is an illustration of how good intentions of good people sometimes lead to unpredicted consequences. I have a feeling that Ioasaph had nothing against good music, musical instruments, etc. - he just desperately tried to return some order and dignity to church services. Also, I can imagine that the people of Muscovy, having heard this weird simultaneous chanting of several choirs, started to give up on church singing, and sought their aesthetic fulfilment in secular music. Maybe that was another reason for Ioasaph's austere move against musical instruments.
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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2008, 07:10:52 PM »

Thanks everyone!

It isn't that I think I need to do it, but I feel like I ought to. I got rid of most of my gangster rap music a couple months ago and I've been better for it. And while I've gotten rid of video games (which were hurting me bc of my addiction) and other things, it's given me time to do other things, such as learn more about Orthodoxy, or about my profession and job.

I figure that if I cut this music from my life, I will listen to Orthodox music more... Recently i haven't listened to the music and have begun listening to Orthodox music a lot more.
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2008, 07:17:26 PM »

^ Hey, maybe you could take up listening to classical music. Grin
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« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2008, 07:18:59 AM »

^ Hey, maybe you could take up listening to classical music. Grin

I second this. Devin, classical music is a world, a beautiful world... Maybe if you just listen patiently to Chopin's Polonaise Op. 53 in A flat major (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZGi49Bnghs), just once, you will be "hooked" to it and you won't need any "gangsta" stuff for the rest of your life? Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2008, 07:35:44 AM »

I second this. Devin, classical music is a world, a beautiful world... Maybe if you just listen patiently to Chopin's Polonaise Op. 53 in A flat major (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZGi49Bnghs), just once, you will be "hooked" to it and you won't need any "gangsta" stuff for the rest of your life? Smiley

^^LOL - I love classical music, and Chopin is one of my favourite composers, but I still have my moments with Iron Maiden ( amongst others! )  Grin
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« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2008, 09:21:27 AM »

^^LOL - I love classical music, and Chopin is one of my favourite composers, but I still have my moments with Iron Maiden ( amongst others! )  Grin

You mean Georges Sand? Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2008, 09:56:20 AM »

You mean Georges Sand? Smiley

LOL!!
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« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2008, 08:53:47 PM »

You are most welcome. I am sorry if I "side-tracked" this discussion. I knew nothing about Ioasaph I, so I became curious and, knowing Russian, quickly found this information.
No, John Alden (Hopeful Faithful) did. You brought it back on topic.

And seriously, thank you for the information. I found nothing about him in English, so your Russian sources were unknown to me. I really do appreciate it.

Quote
Closer to the topic, I think this is an illustration of how good intentions of good people sometimes lead to unpredicted consequences. I have a feeling that Ioasaph had nothing against good music, musical instruments, etc. - he just desperately tried to return some order and dignity to church services. Also, I can imagine that the people of Muscovy, having heard this weird simultaneous chanting of several choirs, started to give up on church singing, and sought their aesthetic fulfilment in secular music. Maybe that was another reason for Ioasaph's austere move against musical instruments.
Perhaps. None of us can know the future with any certainty, and certainly if he acted with good intentions, others' misunderstanding and misusing his commands would not injure his good name.
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« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2008, 09:12:03 PM »

As for the music scene, I am basically in to Liturgical, Classical and Big Band. I also enjoy some folk and ethnic periodically.

Regarding the decumulating.....

Don't go "crazy convert" and rid yourself of everything at once, do so gradually. Perhaps get rid of your "darkest" and some of the most addicting stuff first. Then take it from there gradually. It will allow you time to adjust spiritually and otherwise without going into "burn out".

Personal Story:

I did a "crazy convert" great purge of all my electronics (stereo, television, VCR, DVD, computer, &c.) and most of my modern kitchen appliances six years ago. I did fine for about two weeks then I about went off my trolley. It was even worse considering I was on disability at the time, thus spending most of my time at home (a small apartment) with little to do. I finally managed to replace many things, but I hadn't yet learnt the lesson and purged again a few years later. I am just now recovering from this last purge of four years ago. Once again I am considering decumulating, but I am going to do it "slow and steady" accompanied by prayer! I will likely keep a few modern electronic things around, at least for a time.

As one poster mentioned... yes music does have an effect on the soul. It can also stimulate the passions. Thus, one of the inherent problems in much of rock/pop music.
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« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2008, 09:21:54 PM »

When I decided to become Orthodox, I went through and got rid of some Christian music which was so blatantly Protestant in the theology that it was now like nails on a chalkboard.  IE, Carman with the "word-faith" theology, One Bad Pig with some songs that sounded very Calvinist.  I also realized that some of the Christian music I had just wasn't very good, so I got rid of that as well.  I kept most of the secular stuff, however, including Disturbed.  Haven't regretted it.  Smiley  Of course, I've been Christian all my life, so I had very little in my collection that might be considered "Satanic" in the first place.  There might be the occasional song on a CD, but I just skip past it.
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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2008, 06:02:45 PM »

Devin, I think you should do what you're comfortable with doing - there's a lot to be said for giving up everything you thought you needed, at least once or twice in your life.  I learned this from my godmother and my experience.  She is kind of an ex-hippy and gave away everything she owned twice before coming to Orthodoxy.  She says it was a great experience. 

I went through what you are going through, too, but I didn't give up all my music.  I chucked what was obviously rotten, and really quit listening even to everything I kept for a long time.  In fact, for months I listened only to chant and to one particular recording of Rachmaninov's All-Night Vigil.  I had too much in my head to be processing anything else.  This was in the first months I started exclusively down the path to Orthodoxy.  I didn't need anyone else's suggestions in the form of musical lyrics to influence me - I had enough to work through.

I'm a distance runner, though, and so it wasn't long before I added some alternative back into the mix just for my workouts - mostly goofy stuff like They Might Be Giants (and actually, there are some Rachmaninov pieces that are great to run to!).  I ran in silence for quite some time, but then I decided just to try listening to that stuff again, with interesting results.  I find that with most art, it is what you bring to it.  I was listening to the local alternative station when Social Distortion's song "Ball and Chain" began to play, and I realized in some ways how spiritual it really is - in a way totally compatible with Orthodoxy.  It basically recounts my experience of coming to faith (not that I drank and found myself in the county jail or anything!).  It's about realizing that nothing satisfies you - it even mentions sitting in your broken down Chevrolet praying and thinking "there's got to be another way."  "Take away this ball and chain" sounded like my experience of losing the feelings of pointlessness I'd always had.  Anyway, enough poetic explication/literary criticism (sorry, I am an English grad student).  But even if listening to a song just makes you say, "huh.  That isn't right.  God tells us [insert here] is true," it can help develop your thinking.  You're going to get confronted with non-Orthodox thoughts out there in the world.  Art is grist for the mill, IMHO.
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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2008, 07:21:18 AM »

All who would be like Christ are called to be ascetic, to practice virtue and to practice dispassion.

In a list of passions to be avoiding, we read in vol. 3 of the Philokalia, pg 206, "fluteplaying" along with many other similar passions, such as "...laughter, jokes, immodest dancing, clapping, improper songs..."

From the Domostroi (Rules for Russian Households) trans. by Pouncy, on pg 181, about women's responsibilities it reads: "She should not allow any Devil-inspired songs...or foul mouthed messages"

More references and documentation to arrive later.
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« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2008, 08:48:53 AM »

All who would be like Christ are called to be ascetic, to practice virtue and to practice dispassion.

In a list of passions to be avoiding, we read in vol. 3 of the Philokalia, pg 206, "fluteplaying" along with many other similar passions, such as "...laughter, jokes, immodest dancing, clapping, improper songs..."

From the Domostroi (Rules for Russian Households) trans. by Pouncy, on pg 181, about women's responsibilities it reads: "She should not allow any Devil-inspired songs...or foul mouthed messages"

More references and documentation to arrive later.

You see, that's exactly what worries me in discussions like this one. Why should we assume that Philokalia and Domostroi are Gospel Truth and guidance for all of us?

In Philokalia, if I am not mistaken, Simeon the New Theologian writes that if your wife is an unbeliever (like it is in my case), you should immediately run away from her, without ever looking back.

In Domostroi, husbands are instructed to beat their wives "not with a stick, but politely, with a horsewhip."

I think we should take this with a grain of salt, no?
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« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2008, 08:52:50 AM »

Mr. Alden, just a question:

Why are you so intent on all of us living our lives in the way you feel we should? Does it make you uncomfortable that we choose to laugh, use the Internet, and play chess? There are Saints who were polygamists; can God not save a chess-playing person as well?

Life according to the religion you describe would be a life anaesthetised. If this is Christianity, I want out now.
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« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2008, 02:03:28 PM »

More references and documentation to arrive later.
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« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2008, 07:33:09 PM »

Mr. Alden, just a question:

Why are you so intent on all of us living our lives in the way you feel we should? Does it make you uncomfortable that we choose to laugh, use the Internet, and play chess? There are Saints who were polygamists; can God not save a chess-playing person as well?

Life according to the religion you describe would be a life anaesthetised. If this is Christianity, I want out now.

Yes!  It sounds like the old Methodist Blue Laws (some of which still survived in the Nazarene Church until the last couple of decades), or the Amish restrictions, or the old-fashioned restrictions we read about in books: no acting, no laughing on Sunday, no playing on Sunday, etc.  It sounds like a very dour way of life.  I still wish I'd been allowed to go to dances like "normal" kids when I was a teenager.
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« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2008, 08:49:30 PM »

Yes!  It sounds like the old Methodist Blue Laws (some of which still survived in the Nazarene Church until the last couple of decades), or the Amish restrictions, or the old-fashioned restrictions we read about in books: no acting, no laughing on Sunday, no playing on Sunday, etc.  It sounds like a very dour way of life.  I still wish I'd been allowed to go to dances like "normal" kids when I was a teenager.

Sigh. I SO hear you, OFQ!! Cry
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« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2008, 03:06:24 AM »

Quote
Life according to the religion you describe would be a life anaesthetised. If this is Christianity, I want out now.

Life would be dragged by its hair back to the Puritan Age. Perhaps Hopeful Faithful also wishes us to change the traditional icons because they're "too colorful"? Wink

(as Captain Kirk) Too..much..color! I'm becoming..a...blind man...of Biblical proportions! Tongue

Hey Devin, try Divna Ljubojevic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcpUnZ_ghdA&feature=related
                                           http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tKexc4wSM&feature=related
                                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEHJY0T9RsQ&feature=related
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« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2008, 08:51:50 PM »

...along with many other similar passions, such as "...laughter, jokes..."

I want no part of YOUR Orthodoxy. Celtic paganism is more Godly than this.
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« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2008, 10:31:00 PM »

I want no part of YOUR Orthodoxy. Celtic paganism is more Godly than this.

Yes, it's hard to imagine that the Celts would have so readily converted had they been presented with such a lifeless Chrsitianity. When I was an inquirer, a young Orthodox fanatic told me that we shouldn't laugh; that Christ never sinned by laughing. I laughed!
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« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2008, 11:21:31 PM »

Quote
Yes, it's hard to imagine that the Celts would have so readily converted had they been presented with such a lifeless Chrsitianity. When I was an inquirer, a young Orthodox fanatic told me that we shouldn't laugh; that Christ never sinned by laughing. I laughed!

All this seriousness is turning Jesus into a Ben Stein! I'm just waiting for the day some Orthodox young'un claims Jesus would have accidently turned people to stone if He cracked a smile... Tongue
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« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2008, 10:40:05 AM »

Spare us. Roll Eyes

Considering Mr. Alden's pattern in the past, I would not hold my breath waiting for any reliable "references and documentation" and if anything purporting to be such were to be posted, I would not trust them to be accurate.  And as a side note, there are ellipses in the passages he seems to be quoting; following previous habits I would not trust them until the full sentence(s) could be found and checked.  Undecided

Also, I have a copy of the "Domostroi" in translation on my shelves.  I do not see why it should be accounted as applicable to all persons in all times and all places. 

Ebor (dubious)
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« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2008, 03:45:13 PM »

My opinion is: go sell everything you have and give the proceeds to someone in need.  Who?  Perhaps a single mother in your parish or even one you know of who isn't even Orthodox (recall Elijah helped a widow who was not an Israelite)?   

Then....here comes the more difficult part....every payday begin to set aside an equivalent amount as you once spent on your music collection passion and then begin slipping her the cash without any fanfare and if possible without her knowing it, but this last part is not always possible.

This will reveal a spiritual battle within yourself as you learn to hear the rejoicing of the Angels whose voices refrain every time a soul enters the contest to bring all he or she is into captivity to the knowledge of knowing Christ Jesus.  Pray to hear their songs which encourage the struggling soul to endure in walking in the good works which only you were ordained to walk in...that means do not judge the choices you make by what everyone else is doing around you. 

Do not be dismayed by temptations which entice you to give up your battle...which is not against music or the hearing thereof, but against a passion which you have yourself already recognized hinders your attentiveness to that one thing most important...hearing the voice of Christ in you teaching you how to keep his commandment to love your neighbor as yourself as you struggle to have pure and undefiled religion...which as you know St. James has defined for us saying: "...to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction and to KEEP ONESELF UNSPOTED FROM THE WORLD."

By beginning to perform the 1st action [as quoted] required by the apostle, you will have already begun to keeping after the latter.

Remember this most importantly, if your going to clean your house, after doing so fill it with good things lest the demons return to find it empty and use you as a location for a block party.

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« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2008, 04:43:59 PM »

I asked my spiritual father this question years ago and he said not to listen to secular music.

Music has a way of penetrating the soul. I don't know about you, but when I listen to musical lyrics the words tend to go around and around in my mind. This can more of a negative impact on your life than you might think since the feelings and emotions that modern music often focuses on is not exactly uplifting stuff.

On the other hand the more you listen to liturgical music and chanting, you will have God pleasing words going through your mind throughout your day, even when you aren't focusing on praying.

I know it's hard to separate from the world around us, but it's ultimately what we are called upon to do as Orthodox Christians. Giving up secular (and often spiritually harmful) music its just another choice we have, and one more opportunity to become closer to God. It's probably unrealistic to drop everything at once. Try to weed out the most overtly offensive things first and then work your way down from there. Eventually with God's help you'll have detached yourself from all those unnecessary and worldly things.


A caveat: I am not disputing what your spiritual father told you, but as far as applying it to a principle, I have some reservations which I will address.

I think it depends on the type of music...my bishop once remarked that traditional folk music often flows from the same source as Church music and has the same characteristics. I've noticed even some monasteries at their feast days play folk music even "in the Old World."

I enjoy listening to chant but not all the time. Some Greek island music, Pontiaka, some Arabic melodies, some forms of Latin American music like Vallenato and *some* modern American music all fit the bill. But I can't listen to a lot of the music I used to listen to as a teenager; even the stuff with clean lyrics just provokes passions.

The idea that we should weed out all secular music is strange to me and I think more fundamentalist than Orthodox; God's creation is not evil, and the positive aspects of created things lift the mind up towards God. A beautifully composed kritika song with the violin (or even better, a lyre) often instills a true sense of awe and majesty and peace when I listen to it.

Discretion is advised and moderation is important.
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« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2008, 06:27:40 PM »

Such a balanced post, Father! Thank you!
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« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2008, 08:57:07 PM »

Give up listening to Pink Floyd?  Nope, not gonna happen.
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« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2008, 09:02:43 AM »

Give up listening to Pink Floyd?  Nope, not gonna happen.

I'm with you, username!  Wink
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« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2008, 04:31:37 PM »

I don't mean to be offensive, but does hopeful faithful just say completely wacky things all the time? I mean, come on, a little backing up of his ideas would be helpful. He just never gives any explanation....ever. Huh
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« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2008, 06:51:13 PM »

I don't mean to be offensive, but does hopeful faithful just say completely wacky things all the time? I mean, come on, a little backing up of his ideas would be helpful. He just never gives any explanation....ever. Huh
You're not the only one who's commented on this.
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« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2009, 05:00:45 AM »

We forgive you for not knowing the difference between godliness and xenophobia.

Oddly enough, a Google search for this patriarch yielded only one result, a post you yourself wrote here: http://oldbelievers.wetpaint.com/thread/1013675/Vera+Strochilina/post/8307651/Vera+Strochilina. What evidence do we have that he even existed (besides your word of course)?

The patriarch was not merely afraid of foreigners, but things contrary to Orthodoxy. Such musical instruments are simply unchristian. Sadly people do not even know what it means to be Christian these days. Oh, about searching the Internet, many years ago I found this. Look down for the year mentioned and you will see it.

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/Site-prior-to-Easyweb-migration/chrono1.html

This was one of my first sources for the information, now I have so many sources for such things that there is more than enough proof in this area to explain a lot more than most people realize about the topic. Perhaps we will all be able to learn more about this in the near future.

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« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2009, 10:32:29 AM »

Revived after nearly a year...

If so many sources have been found since this thread was started, why were not more of them be put in the above post? Why should we 'be able to learn more' in the 'near future' rather then now, one wonders.   There isn't a character limit here on the forum as there is on Twitter. 

The link provided has one line on the subject with no other links.  Will the "so many sources" be posted soon?
 Undecided
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« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2009, 12:09:51 PM »

Revived after nearly a year...

If so many sources have been found since this thread was started, why were not more of them be put in the above post? Why should we 'be able to learn more' in the 'near future' rather then now, one wonders.   There isn't a character limit here on the forum as there is on Twitter. 

The link provided has one line on the subject with no other links.  Will the "so many sources" be posted soon?
 Undecided

Ebor, you've only given him eleven months. Quit rushing Mr. Alden; he can't think that fast. Wink
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« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2009, 02:32:01 PM »

Of course, I still like some songs from Tool.  Wink

That's funny, Tool is the one band I've felt God really wanted me to junk from my record collection. After reading about how their drummer Danny Carey had spent many thousands of dollars buying up Aleister Crowley memorabilia, and how he put occult symbols on his drumheads to spiritually guide him in performing, I don't see how you could feel their music is anything but satanic.
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« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2009, 09:45:08 AM »

I imagine it's not the symbols, but the cymbals (electronic ones) that help him perform better. They're Simmons, a well-known brand among drummers.

Danny Carey's drum set: http://www.dannycarey.org/page2.html
A Simmons electronic drum set: http://www.simmonsdrums.net/sd9k/

In addition, Carey is not the only metal musician who has had a fascination with Alastair Crowley. Ozzy Osbourne's song "Mr. Crowley," from his 1980 album Blizzard of Oz, was about the famous occultist. However, stage performances are within the realm of the performing arts, and although musicians often use their real names (not always, as in the cases of Madonna, Bono, David Bowie, etc.), very often their lives on stage are decidedly different from their lives off stage. One should not make judgments of the real person based upon the stage persona.

To summarize, God has no musical preference, no political preference, and no fashion preference. To say He does is a very Protestant idea, and one that caused me to leave the Protestant church altogether. God is not involved in the minutia, in the inconsequential trivialities of your life. In those, do what you want, without seeking a "sign from God." It's not going to come. Just enjoy the music, and the skilled musicians who play it. Listen to what you like, and don't worry so much about things that ultimately don't matter.
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« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2009, 06:52:02 PM »

Look at Gene Simmons for example... He is very different from what he's like on stage... Well, in some aspects lol

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« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2009, 02:32:26 AM »

However, stage performances are within the realm of the performing arts, and although musicians often use their real names (not always, as in the cases of Madonna, Bono, David Bowie, etc.), very often their lives on stage are decidedly different from their lives off stage. One should not make judgments of the real person based upon the stage persona.

If a musician or artist engages in regularly mocking Christianity and Christ and the saints, claiming that it's still OK to enjoy it because it's a "stage persona" is hard to swallow.
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« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2009, 11:41:15 AM »

However, stage performances are within the realm of the performing arts, and although musicians often use their real names (not always, as in the cases of Madonna, Bono, David Bowie, etc.), very often their lives on stage are decidedly different from their lives off stage. One should not make judgments of the real person based upon the stage persona.

If a musician or artist engages in regularly mocking Christianity and Christ and the saints, claiming that it's still OK to enjoy it because it's a "stage persona" is hard to swallow.
Perhaps, but then, art often does meet us at our most treasured values. Art inspires emotion, and it's hard to feel emotion about something for which we care little.
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« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2009, 12:06:02 PM »

However, stage performances are within the realm of the performing arts, and although musicians often use their real names (not always, as in the cases of Madonna, Bono, David Bowie, etc.), very often their lives on stage are decidedly different from their lives off stage.

Not to quibble (okay, I am, but this is the internet Wink ), but Madonna is her real name.  She just doesn't use her surname Smiley
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« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2009, 09:05:57 PM »

Greetings Forum,

The godly Russian Patriarch Joasaph I, in the year 1636 (perhaps we would call him an Old Believer) banned all foreign musical instruments. Joasaph I said that "only bells, drums and horns call the angels, all other musical instruments call the demons". So, by going house to house he had all the devilish instruments loaded up and ceremoniously drug across the river where once there they were all destroyed.

Forgive, John
So he didn't like the piano, guitar or mandolin I take it....poor guy, He missed out. Without Jazz I don't know how I would ever stop listening to Hip-Hop.
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« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2009, 07:50:21 AM »

However, stage performances are within the realm of the performing arts, and although musicians often use their real names (not always, as in the cases of Madonna, Bono, David Bowie, etc.), very often their lives on stage are decidedly different from their lives off stage.

Not to quibble (okay, I am, but this is the internet Wink ), but Madonna is her real name.  She just doesn't use her surname Smiley
I didn't realize that. I hadn't imagined anyone would name a child Madonna.
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« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2009, 09:52:45 AM »

However, stage performances are within the realm of the performing arts, and although musicians often use their real names (not always, as in the cases of Madonna, Bono, David Bowie, etc.), very often their lives on stage are decidedly different from their lives off stage.

Not to quibble (okay, I am, but this is the internet Wink ), but Madonna is her real name.  She just doesn't use her surname Smiley
I didn't realize that. I hadn't imagined anyone would name a child Madonna.

She's Italian.  As my wife (also Italian) pointed out, only an Italian would name his/her daughter "Madonna", much like only a Hispanic/Latino would name his son "Jesus". Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2009, 07:42:36 PM »

Speaking of female singers, I've started listening to more songs by Evanescence. Pandora introduced me to more than just their song "Bring Me to Life". A really great group, I especially love their song "Everybody's Fool"... Really shows the problem we create with our celebrities/superstars...
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« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2009, 12:58:22 AM »

However, stage performances are within the realm of the performing arts, and although musicians often use their real names (not always, as in the cases of Madonna, Bono, David Bowie, etc.), very often their lives on stage are decidedly different from their lives off stage.

Not to quibble (okay, I am, but this is the internet Wink ), but Madonna is her real name.  She just doesn't use her surname Smiley
I didn't realize that. I hadn't imagined anyone would name a child Madonna.
Madonna simply means "My Lady" in Italian.
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« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2009, 01:04:54 AM »

I didn't realize that. I hadn't imagined anyone would name a child Madonna.

A not-so-rare Greek name for girls is Despina or Despoina, which means Mistress (in the proper sense of the word, not the modern corrupted meaning). Despina is one of the many names used for the Mother of God, both liturgically, and in folk devotions. This name is a close match to the Italian Madonna (Our Lady).
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« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2009, 06:41:14 PM »

There's also Panagiotis; I've seen both men and women with this baptized name.
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« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2009, 08:29:25 PM »

I've started playing the guitar, and have been debating whether or not I want to spend 300$ on an electric guitar... Hoping when I get to college, it can replace video games as my recreational activity. However I dunno if I should get it or not... Thoughts? (Not really saying this is equivalent to the subject of the thread, but still curious as to what everyone thinks i oughta do)
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« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2009, 10:02:12 PM »

As a guitarist, I say buy one, and buy the best one you can afford, even if you have to save a little more to get a good one.

Do not buy a cheap guitar if you know you can get a better one a bit down the line if you save a little more.  One can easily find a used guitar in the $300 to $400 range that is decent and one you'll want to keep for a long time.  Don't make an impulse purchase but test out a number of them.  You won't want to play a guitar that doesn't feel right.
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« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2009, 10:41:10 PM »

I've started playing the guitar, and have been debating whether or not I want to spend 300$ on an electric guitar... Hoping when I get to college, it can replace video games as my recreational activity. However I dunno if I should get it or not... Thoughts? (Not really saying this is equivalent to the subject of the thread, but still curious as to what everyone thinks i oughta do)

Get the guitar!!!  You won't regret it.  Learn the basic chords and the pentatonic scale in Em and you are off to the races!!! For that much dough, guitars vary a lot from guitar to guitar, so try a bunch and when you find one that seems to be speaking to you, that's the one.  No other factor matters. And you can get a good guitar for that much money. I have some pretty expensive guitars, PRS, a couple Martins, a Gibson, American Fender, etc. but one of my favorites is a Made in Mexico Jimmy Vaughan Fender Strat that I bought for $350 used, the neck is just sick and I was lucky to get a very resonant body.
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« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2009, 10:57:50 PM »

That's funny, Tool is the one band I've felt God really wanted me to junk from my record collection. After reading about how their drummer Danny Carey had spent many thousands of dollars buying up Aleister Crowley memorabilia, and how he put occult symbols on his drumheads to spiritually guide him in performing, I don't see how you could feel their music is anything but satanic.

I take no issue with tool, but each of us is different, and I may at some point.  It is just hard for me to see Tool as being dangerous after having listened to the most evil and blasphemous black metal for years.  Tool has nothing on the likes of Funeral Mist, Ondskapt, Kriegsmaschine or the like. 

The genre is actually called Orthodox Black Metal because of its strong religious orientation.  This is no petty, childish Laveyan Satanism.  That juvenile racket is no more than a watered-down Ayn Rand steeped in the indulgence of hedonistic sexual taboos.  He just wanted to hook up with soccer moms and to make sure that the whole affair involved candles and leather.  Orthodox Black Metal is Theistic Satanism realized; a passionate devotion toward self-destructive annihilation.  Beware!
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« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2009, 01:26:58 AM »

I will offer other notes later, but for now here are few more.

There was the musical idolatry at Sinai which was not a good thing. Uzzah was killed while transporting the Ark on wheels with musical instruments. Job’s first children were killed while having a party, no doubt using musical instruments. God forbade musical instruments inside the camp of Israel, specifically commanding musical instruments to only be outside the gates in the area of the pagans. The holy prophet Ezekiel attributes the beginning of the devil with the mark of the beast and musical instruments. The minor prophet Amos repeatedly condemned different sorts of instrumental music. In the liturgical New Testament there is no emphasis showing that Christians continued using musical instruments.

Cain’s son Jubal was said to have started using musical instruments. Some suggest that the daughters of men were Cainites who reveled, while the son’s of God were Shethites many of who followed Enoch’s example of taking vows and living as anchorites on a holy mountain.

St. Basil once asked, "Whence is it that we are Christians? Through our faith, would be the universal answer. And in what way are we saved? Plainly because we were regenerate through the grace given in our baptism. No one every forced their way 'into the presence of God' with music and no one is ever said to have been improved by the use of music."

"Where kithara playing and dancing and hand clapping find place, there is the beguiling of men, the corruption of women, the sorrow of angels and a feast for the devil... Today, to all appearances, they sing psalms as God ordained, and tomorrow they will eagerly dance as taught by Satan. Today they contradict Satan and tomorrow they follow him... Let it be far from you that today, as one loving Christ, you listen attentively to the reading of the divine Scripture, and tomorrow as a criminal and a hater of Christ you listen to lyre playing." - St. Ephraim the Syrian

In what appears to be fragments of commentary from the Holy Gospel, Hippolytus says, "I made your ears that ye might hear the Scriptures; and ye prepared them for the songs of demons, and lyres, and jesting."

In the book titled, A Treasury of American Folklore, it says that the devil was the inventor of the violin.

We should know that it takes a great amount of thought bending to believe that all musical instruments facilitate the desire of hearing from God.

Most musical instrumental music creates what might be called a dangerous tranquilizing effect. Very demonic if you ask me.

So beware out there.

Forgive, brother John
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« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2009, 02:07:55 AM »

There was the musical idolatry at Sinai which was not a good thing. Uzzah was killed while transporting the Ark on wheels with musical instruments. Job’s first children were killed while having a party, no doubt using musical instruments. God forbade musical instruments inside the camp of Israel, specifically commanding musical instruments to only be outside the gates in the area of the pagans. The holy prophet Ezekiel attributes the beginning of the devil with the mark of the beast and musical instruments. The minor prophet Amos repeatedly condemned different sorts of instrumental music. In the liturgical New Testament there is no emphasis showing that Christians continued using musical instruments.

Cain’s son Jubal was said to have started using musical instruments. Some suggest that the daughters of men were Cainites who reveled, while the son’s of God were Shethites many of who followed Enoch’s example of taking vows and living as anchorites on a holy mountain.
Methinks you've never read the last three Psalms nor been to Matins to hear these three Psalms recited in the Lauds.

In the book titled, A Treasury of American Folklore, it says that the devil was the inventor of the violin.
Since when was any treasury of folklore an authoritative source of Christian dogma?

Most musical instrumental music creates what might be called a dangerous tranquilizing effect. Very demonic if you ask me.
There's a reason we don't ask you.
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« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2009, 03:58:45 PM »


Methinks you've never read the last three Psalms nor been to Matins to hear these three Psalms recited in the Lauds.
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Most musical instrumental music creates what might be called a dangerous tranquilizing effect. Very demonic if you ask me.
There's a reason we don't ask you.
Obviously rocks make comfortable places to live under for some people....HopefulFaithful, by your comments, it could be understood that anyone who listens to music other than Liturgical, possibly even Syphonic, could become under the influence of Satan's demons.
Also, although you probably think that the OO church is heretical, One finds that in their liturgy in Ethiopia and on certain feast days, the drum, a tamborine-like instrument, and other instruments straight from the days of King David are used.
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« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2009, 12:26:00 PM »

I will offer other notes later, but for now here are few more.

But when will the supposed supporting sources be posted?

Quote
Uzzah was killed while transporting the Ark on wheels with musical instruments.

It wasn't anything "musical" that killed Uzzah, nor was it wheels.  It was because he touched it with his hand.

1 Chronicles 13:9
"9 When they came to the threshing-floor of Chidon, Uzzah put out his hand to hold the ark, for the oxen shook it. 10The anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; he struck him down because he put out his hand to the ark; and he died there before God."

Passages of the Bible can be easily checked to find out what happened so that mis-statements can be avoided. 

Quote
Job’s first children were killed while having a party, no doubt using musical instruments.

There is no information at all in the book of Job as to whether Job's family were "using musical instruments".  It is your interpretation and based on nothing that is actually in the text.  Therefore, there is indeed "doubt".

Quote
The holy prophet Ezekiel attributes the beginning of the devil with the mark of the beast and musical instruments.

Please give us the passage that you have in mind when making this interpretation.

Quote
In the liturgical New Testament there is no emphasis showing that Christians continued using musical instruments.

This fits under the "Argument from Silence".

Quote
Cain’s son Jubal was said to have started using musical instruments.

Who said this please?

Quote
Some suggest that the daughters of men were Cainites who reveled, while the son’s of God were Shethites many of who followed Enoch’s example of taking vows and living as anchorites on a holy mountain.

Who are those who made this suggestion?   

Quote
St. Basil once asked, "Whence is it that we are Christians? Through our faith, would be the universal answer. And in what way are we saved? Plainly because we were regenerate through the grace given in our baptism. No one every forced their way 'into the presence of God' with music and no one is ever said to have been improved by the use of music."

Please cite where he wrote this.  What was the context?

Quote
In the book titled, A Treasury of American Folklore, it says that the devil was the inventor of the violin.

You can give a book of folklore as a source, but you cannot give others?  There are lots of legends and folk tales that are just that and not some kind of historical fact of origin. Violins came out of the string family of instruments such as the Byzantine Lira and the Rebec.  What we know as the violin seems to have started in northern Italy in the 1500s.

Quote
We should know that it takes a great amount of thought bending to believe that all musical instruments facilitate the desire of hearing from God.

Most musical instrumental music creates what might be called a dangerous tranquilizing effect. Very demonic if you ask me.


More assertions of personal opinion  Undecided
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« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2009, 12:48:01 PM »

Having looked at Mr. Alden's website (revealing in itself) and read a number of his posts on this forum, it's evident that he finds safety in living in this pretend world of his. It's a world that is black and white... defined rigidly by the few who have found the "truth" and the many who are obviously lost. Fortunately for Mr. Alden, he is amongst those who are on the inside of this pretend Ark of safety. So... he pretends to be what he isn't: an Old Believer living a couple of hundred years ago. His problem is... he posts using a computer... he includes photographs which he claims are evil but justifies such as temporary abberations useful to educate the many bound for hell. In short, it's my opinion that he is best dismissed as part of what is sometimes called: the lunatic fringe.
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« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2009, 08:13:23 PM »

Fortunately for Mr. Alden, he is amongst those who are on the inside of this pretend Ark of safety.

May we all find good health.

I do not believe that I am in any Ark of safety, there are many misconceptions about me. People personally mock me on this forum. I do not mock any one person, but all of us. We are all lunatics if we believe that the inventions of men, like modern music, are godly.

It is clear that mankind only gets worse and worse, that the days are more evil than ever. What kind of persons ought we to be? The Holy Gospel explains that only a few enter into eternal joy. If others want to preach a false gospel that is their choice.

For me there is no doubt that New-Rite Orthodoxy is unsafe. I am not going to bother making a long personal defense here now, but the truth is that many people from around the world are thankful for my small efforts. For all of them, and others in the near future, I will struggle here among the worldly minded Orthodox for a little while longer. I was received in baptism among you in the New-Rite, but I now am learning of Old Orthodoxy. I am presently in transistion.

Let’s not fool ourselves, modern music is far from Christ. We all make mistakes from time to time, but nobody has ever disproven Old Orthodoxy. There is a big difference between personal mistakes that are repented of and the lifelong embrace of things contrary to Christ.

Forgive, brother John
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« Reply #75 on: July 12, 2009, 08:30:15 PM »

 Hopeful Faithful - Why do you refuse to refute Douglas and Ebor, Answer their questions. Precisely what is it that you cling to, your own understanding or that of Christ?
 
There are many things which are not mentioned in the Gospels which are good and correct. Many things which are not explained for us which we must figure out on our own and music brings much gladness to hearts of men when we who have GOD-given talents to do so. Be aware of yourself and what you speak. Is it an opinion, something which you mimic, or based solely on scripture. I am not bashing you but coming to you with an open heart and asking you to prove your standing as scripturally sound. I believe this is a good discussion. 
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« Reply #76 on: July 12, 2009, 08:38:02 PM »

If asking questions and asking for more information and sources comes across as "mocking", that is certainly not my intention.  Nor is offering exact quotes from the Scriptures to show what the precise wording is in the referenced passages meant to deride.  Rather I post them in the interests of truth and real verifiable information.
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« Reply #77 on: July 12, 2009, 08:50:02 PM »

If I get an electric guitar... I think it's gonna be a Ibanez GRG-170


Also thought about a Les Paul Special II, but I don't think I could play the metal that I sometimes listen to... Nor it would be easy to play things by groups like Evanescence or Tool... But I do like a lot of music from guitars like it... Especially Sweet Child O Mine...
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« Reply #78 on: July 12, 2009, 08:51:16 PM »

Hopeful Faithful - Why do you refuse to refute Douglas and Ebor, Answer their questions. Precisely what is it that you cling to, your own understanding or that of Christ?
 
There are many things which are not mentioned in the Gospels which are good and correct. Many things which are not explained for us which we must figure out on our own and music brings much gladness to hearts of men when we who have GOD-given talents to do so. Be aware of yourself and what you speak. Is it an opinion, something which you mimic, or based solely on scripture. I am not bashing you but coming to you with an open heart and asking you to prove your standing as scripturally sound. I believe this is a good discussion. 

I think that Douglas and Ebor are their own best refute, it is not like I never post a reply. I am not here to argue unendingly. I think that what I have offered is enough. Perhaps in time I will add another post. My opinion is not what matters, Orthodoxy matters. I do not base my beliefs soley on what others call scripture, but on the historical continuity, changelessness of faith and the commitment towards doctrine as seen throughout Old Orthodoxy. The practices found in the New-Rite do contradict Christ, the leading of the Holy Spirit, not to mention the god-bearing fathers. I do not want to take personal offense but merely have shown some answers to the question in the title of this thread. If others do not see the proof then they do not see it. I think there is personal attack here, which I will always work to stay away from. I think the proof is really on the other foot here, as with so many other threads. There is no good example of modern style music in the life of any Orthodox Christian.

Forgive, brother John
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« Reply #79 on: July 12, 2009, 10:11:16 PM »

I think that Douglas and Ebor are their own best refute, it is not like I never post a reply.
They're not asking you to post more replies.  They're asking you to cite more authoritative sources outside of yourself, and enough of each source to show that you're not misrepresenting it intentionally.

I am not here to argue unendingly. I think that what I have offered is enough.
You have a number of posters here who argue that you have not offered enough.  If you really want to convince us of the truth of your position, then I urge you to actually engage the criticisms others have made of your arguments and give them the information they have requested.

Perhaps in time I will add another post. My opinion is not what matters, Orthodoxy matters.
But you have not proven to our satisfaction that your position truly represents Orthodoxy.

I do not base my beliefs soley on what others call scripture, but on the historical continuity, changelessness of faith and the commitment towards doctrine as seen throughout Old Orthodoxy. The practices found in the New-Rite do contradict Christ, the leading of the Holy Spirit, not to mention the god-bearing fathers.
We see this argument all the time, and not just from you.  Can you prove it?  So far, you've done nothing to even engage our objections to your claims, much less actually overcome them.  Maybe you should actually follow Ebor's advice and cite authoritative sources outside yourself.

I do not want to take personal offense but merely have shown some answers to the question in the title of this thread. If others do not see the proof then they do not see it. I think there is personal attack here, which I will always work to stay away from. I think the proof is really on the other foot here, as with so many other threads. There is no good example of modern style music in the life of any Orthodox Christian.

Forgive, brother John
You are the one here on this thread trying to persuade us to embrace a particular point of view.  According to the rules of debate, this puts the burden of proof squarely on you.  It is your task to prove to us that what you offer us is true and desirable.  There is no personal attack here, just the natural response to someone who repeatedly asserts a thesis that he simply refuses to defend with solid evidence.  Again, Ebor has provided very good guidelines for how to defend your thesis here on this thread (and elsewhere); I urge you strongly, then, to heed her criticisms and follow the guidelines she has set for you.
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« Reply #80 on: July 13, 2009, 12:23:48 AM »

If I get an electric guitar... I think it's gonna be a Ibanez GRG-170
Not a bad choice. It's got a nice sound, and it's pretty versatile as well. It's actually a cheaper version of the RG, sort of like Gibson's Epiphone Les Paul. I would suggest getting the RG if you can find one on consignment. Just check all the music shops you can find. I got my Gibson L6S for only $400, which is less than the Epiphone Les Pauls were going for at the time. Just something to think about.
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« Reply #81 on: July 13, 2009, 08:15:15 AM »

thx! I had actually rethought it over and was not actually thinking about the Les Paul Special II... After hearing more ppl play it, as well as reading that one of my favorite players, Zakk Wylde plays one similar (of course, a different guitar that is more expensive and customed), as well as artists like Slash and the lead guitarist from Tool. (as well as many others)

Plus the attractive thing about the Les Paul Special II is that it can come in a pack with the chord, the case, the amplifier as well as pitch pipe. All for about $400-$450.
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« Reply #82 on: July 13, 2009, 12:42:40 PM »

Give up listening to Pink Floyd?  Nope, not gonna happen.

We all make our choices as to how we live.

The Holy Gospel is clear that if we are to follow Christ we must forsake everything else.

I remember buying my first music CD in the year 1984, it was the double CD by Pink Floyd, The Wall.

Getting rid of it over 20 years ago is something that has never been regretted.

After that I will never forget admonishing one of my neoOrthodox priests after he had given his teenage son a portable CD player for their new style Christmas. This manufactured device was then carried into the next liturgy and played around with, while a Grateful Dead album of songs was inside it. What an abomination. These are the things which any self-respecting Orthodox Christian ought to runaway from. The priest did not correct me, but made sure his son never brought such a thing into worship again. I should have seen the extent of the Great Apostasy and Antichrist long before that, but I learn slowly. Hopefully we might all learn to live our entire lives more strictly, it would not hurt us.

Here is something from St. Ephraim the Syrian that should make us think twice.

The one gifted with divine wisdom and understanding will easily notice when the Antichrist comes. But the one immersed in things of this world, the one who loves what is worldly, shall not be able to do so. Those who are married to the affairs of this life will hear the Word but not know the truth. If anyone preaches it, in fact, they will hate him.

Forgive, brother John
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« Reply #83 on: July 13, 2009, 01:28:32 PM »

Seems that you and the Mennonites/Amish would get along well Hopeful...


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« Reply #84 on: July 13, 2009, 02:04:16 PM »

It is one thing to have opinions/convictions that lead us to conquer our passions through podvigs which we have taken upon ourselves. It is quite another to coerce others to do what we have chosen for ourselves.  If we are to admonish our brothers and sisters in Christ, should we do it by the sweat of our own brow and be a example - if and when they find out by CHANCE that we have accepted these podvigs? Or should be like the pharisee, shout from the rooftops to others about our fasting, praying, obeying the Laws of Moses and Christ, and spiritual obediences of our Spitirutal Fathers?

Let us then take up our Crosses and follow Christ. Let us live in the ways according to our consciences and according to the things which God has written on our hearts and in the Scriptures and lives of the Saints. But I will accept the Harlot and Theif as my friends, no, as better than myself, for I am the lowliest of creatures and God has not yet despised me. It is in Fact that He has been turning me to Him, and His life through me regenerates my soul further with every day which I take breath.

I am a sinner who has chosen to follow Christ and His ways. May He show me the errors of my ways. But as of yet, He has not taught me the evils of Jazz or Melodies created through Instrumental Music. I am not induced to do any other thing than to praise His holy name when I hear the amazing talents of Man through His gifts given to us by God.
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« Reply #85 on: July 13, 2009, 02:11:24 PM »

I will say however, that the lyrics to many songs are definitely not ok... Vicarious by Tool is an example. I absolutely love the guitar in the song, but hate the lyrics which talk about a love for watching violence, pain, conflict. While the main line goes: "Cause I need to watch things die, from a distance, Vicariously, I live as the whole world dies."

Songs like that, and also those by groups like Disturbed totally kill the instrumentation in them. It's just sad how one can make a masterpiece w/ a guitar like that, then totally demolish it with the words put on top of it.

I'd be willing to bet that if Jesus took up carpentry when young, he or Joseph would'ave made musical instruments. I also bet that instruments would have been playing at the wedding in Cana. Not to mention the hundreds of instances in the Old Testament speaking out music/instruments... Even Revelation includes them.
Of course, you could argue that those are to glorify God and not soley for leisure. But I'm sure even David would have wrote more secular tunes and played them.
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« Reply #86 on: July 13, 2009, 04:19:24 PM »

...............I wouldn't go that far. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #87 on: July 13, 2009, 04:38:52 PM »

After I read the ending part about scripture I thought...
"Wow that sounded very Protestant"... Argh, I really want to get back to St. Thomas, living for three months w/ my Protestant parents and co-workers is really messing me up and rubbing off on me... (though nothing against any of them)
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« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2009, 04:42:34 PM »

I'm sure even David would have wrote more secular tunes and played them.

I do seem to recall that as a young man he was brought into the courts of King Saul to play his lyre in order to calm Saul's troubled spirit. Evidently music can bring peace to the spirit.

16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
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« Reply #89 on: July 13, 2009, 05:18:00 PM »

TA-DA!  Grin sorry I doubted.
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« Reply #90 on: July 15, 2009, 12:09:13 PM »

Give up listening to Pink Floyd?  Nope, not gonna happen.
After that I will never forget admonishing one of my neoOrthodox priests after he had given his teenage son a portable CD player for their new style Christmas. This manufactured device was then carried into the next liturgy and played around with, while a Grateful Dead album of songs was inside it. What an abomination.
This is going to be an historic moment, but I'm going to agree with you here. The only music which should be sung in the Church is liturgical music. Note, though, that I say "in the Church." What one listens to at home or at work is held to entirely different standards. Grateful Dead are certainly talented musicians who create pieces of artistic beauty, and therefore are good to hear. However, they should never be played in the Church, nor any other music which is not from the Liturgy or other prayers of the Church. My priest does enforce this strictly, and on the occasions when some of us forget, he quickly starts singing a liturgical song very loudly, to remind us what's appropriate.
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« Reply #91 on: July 15, 2009, 12:51:12 PM »

While the Greatful Dead are/were talented musicians, the lyrics to their songs definitely were influenced by copius amounts of drugs & new age philosophy. Not to mention the secular bandwagon that followed them around everywhere. Come on, it wasn't just for the music. And sadly I have to agree with H-F on this too. Church is for worship not I-pods, cellphones and other distractions.
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« Reply #92 on: July 15, 2009, 01:48:20 PM »

Quote
My priest does enforce this strictly, and on the occasions when some of us forget, he quickly starts singing a liturgical song very loudly, to remind us what's appropriate.
Is that why he does that? I always thought it was just because he enjoyed liturgical music.
Of course, he does sing b/c he likes it, especially when getting ready or closing down the church, but now I'm glad I'm aware of that fact so that I can recognize when I'm doing something wrong.
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« Reply #93 on: July 15, 2009, 07:26:40 PM »

Quote
My priest does enforce this strictly, and on the occasions when some of us forget, he quickly starts singing a liturgical song very loudly, to remind us what's appropriate.
Is that why he does that? I always thought it was just because he enjoyed liturgical music.
Of course, he does sing b/c he likes it, especially when getting ready or closing down the church, but now I'm glad I'm aware of that fact so that I can recognize when I'm doing something wrong.
Yeah, it's for both reasons. Cheesy
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« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2009, 11:22:32 PM »

Does he care if it's in the Narthex/Bookstore or the Social Hall?

Also, I found out that one of the major distribution centers for Musician's Friend (dot com) is just 20 miles away, so I'm thinking about going down there to see if I can get the Les Paul Special II. I decided on it since most of the artists I listen to use or have used Gibson Les Pauls... And i've heard it's an excellent beginners guitar. It also fits the type of music I listen to more, which is sometimes metal but ranges from classic rock to alternative & hard rock... (Aerosmith, Alter Bridge, Black Label Society, Breaking Benjamin, Evanescence, GNR, KISS, Zeppelin, Linkin Park, Ozzy, Paramore, Puddle of Mudd, Seether, SOAD, Three Days Grace & Tool)
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« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2009, 06:15:18 AM »

I take no issue with tool, but each of us is different, and I may at some point.  It is just hard for me to see Tool as being dangerous after having listened to the most evil and blasphemous black metal for years.  Tool has nothing on the likes of Funeral Mist, Ondskapt, Kriegsmaschine or the like.

Nonetheless, it's hard to claim that Tool is harmless when their drummer is actively summoning up spirits in the belief that they are give a message that liberates people from belief in the Christian God. From Wikipedia (I know, but it's sourced):

"Carey has laid claim to various drumming techniques that use sacred geometric figures such as the unicursal hexagram. The final product is very recognizable, fluent drumming, although to him it is much more: the official Tool website claims that Danny uses drumming as a ritual similar to occult rituals, with purposes varying from spiritual exploration to "a gateway [which] summoned a daemon he has contained…that has been delivering short parables similar to passages within The Book of Lies."
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« Reply #96 on: July 16, 2009, 01:16:01 PM »

Does he care if it's in the Narthex/Bookstore or the Social Hall?
Nah. It's not as big a deal there. Just like we're free to talk there, but we should still watch what we talk about, music can be played in the narthex, but it ought to be something appropriate, even if it's not liturgical.

Quote
Also, I found out that one of the major distribution centers for Musician's Friend (dot com) is just 20 miles away
Yes, I often stop by there when I'm in KC. Nice store, and they have some good deals.
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« Reply #97 on: July 22, 2009, 01:24:48 AM »

I take no issue with tool, but each of us is different, and I may at some point.  It is just hard for me to see Tool as being dangerous after having listened to the most evil and blasphemous black metal for years.  Tool has nothing on the likes of Funeral Mist, Ondskapt, Kriegsmaschine or the like.

Nonetheless, it's hard to claim that Tool is harmless when their drummer is actively summoning up spirits in the belief that they are give a message that liberates people from belief in the Christian God. From Wikipedia (I know, but it's sourced):

"Carey has laid claim to various drumming techniques that use sacred geometric figures such as the unicursal hexagram. The final product is very recognizable, fluent drumming, although to him it is much more: the official Tool website claims that Danny uses drumming as a ritual similar to occult rituals, with purposes varying from spiritual exploration to "a gateway [which] summoned a daemon he has contained…that has been delivering short parables similar to passages within The Book of Lies."

Whether he does that or not, it doesn't work on me.  Smiley
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« Reply #98 on: July 22, 2009, 01:42:36 AM »

Whether he does that or not, it doesn't work on me.

Good health to everyone!

OrthodoxFairyQueen, more might influence us than is realized.

Forgive, brother John

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« Reply #99 on: July 22, 2009, 08:18:27 AM »

I would say that personally, I don't care what the drummer in Tool does... I recently bought an electric guitar and one of the songs I'm learning is Vicarious by Tool. However, I DO NOT like the lyrics of the song. I also don't care about the drumming, it's the electric guitar I'm focused on. I actually have an electric guitar only version of the song. (or at least, a version w/o the singing)

Most rock songs IMO are masterpieces when it comes to the guitar, but not so much when it comes to the lyrics. Same for country music. There is a lot of country music out there that are masterpieces if you take out the words.
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« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2009, 03:40:40 PM »

Gene Simmons with his makeup looks demonic. Modern music is nothing less than an idol. I noticed years ago that the protestants embraced the worldly music also. Young people like rock music so their church used the same instruments and sound but just gave them what they call Christian lyrics which they seem to think makes it ok. Now they have Christian acid-rock, Christian punk rock, etc. What deception. For neoOrthodox to be inclined in the direction of worldly things (whether music or otherwise) is imagination rather than reality. If you ask me we all are in a lot of trouble. The truth is that computer use kills people. I am in transition, like a catechumen, so I am just learning. I see no example of modern style music in real Orthodoxy, but there are many Orthodox teachings against it.

It sounds like the old Methodist Blue Laws (some of which still survived in the Nazarene Church until the last couple of decades), or the Amish restrictions, or the old-fashioned restrictions we read about in books: no acting, no laughing on Sunday, no playing on Sunday, etc.

The Methodist, Nazarene and Amish all lost any hint of real worship, I do believe like them. Everyone gets a few things right though, that is why none of us will have any excuses in the end, for we all really understand what is right or not. However, we each make our choices.

Decades ago the Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR lifted the anathema on the Old Believers, Old Belief is and always has been Orthodox, regardless of the arbitrariness or worldly style modern Orthodox.


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God saves those who repent from sin, are washed and thereby become unsinned.

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« Reply #101 on: August 04, 2009, 04:41:20 PM »

Hopeful, you only strike me as a radical, not as a traditionalist. I'm sorry, but your views on games, computers, non-Orthodox music etc... is VERY radical and personally I don't think it's supported by any of the Church Fathers.

Think about it, measure your beliefs against those of Church Fathers, Orthodox Saints and modern Orthodox faithful. Are your beliefs out of line with these?
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« Reply #102 on: August 05, 2009, 11:00:16 AM »

Hopeful, you only strike me as a radical, not as a traditionalist. I'm sorry, but your views on games, computers, non-Orthodox music etc... is VERY radical and personally I don't think it's supported by any of the Church Fathers.

Think about it, measure your beliefs against those of Church Fathers, Orthodox Saints and modern Orthodox faithful. Are your beliefs out of line with these?
Don't bother.
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« Reply #103 on: August 05, 2009, 11:12:03 AM »

Hopeful, you only strike me as a radical, not as a traditionalist. I'm sorry, but your views on games, computers, non-Orthodox music etc... is VERY radical and personally I don't think it's supported by any of the Church Fathers.

Think about it, measure your beliefs against those of Church Fathers, Orthodox Saints and modern Orthodox faithful. Are your beliefs out of line with these?
Don't bother.

I know, but I've been down the road of radicalism before, it's not fun and doesn't lead to anything good. I just hope and pray he realizes this and catches himself before he really gets too deep in his hole.
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« Reply #104 on: August 05, 2009, 11:13:45 AM »

Give up listening to Pink Floyd?  Nope, not gonna happen.

I'm with you, username!  Wink

If only some of the self-assured would listen to the spiritual guidance of Pink Floyd against plani/prelest (spiritual delusion).

So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell,
blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?
And did they get you to trade
your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange
a walk on part in the war
for a lead role in a cage?
How I wish, how I wish you were here.
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl,
year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
What have we found? The same old fears.
Wish you were here.
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« Reply #105 on: August 05, 2009, 01:38:02 PM »

If only some of the self-assured would listen to the spiritual guidance of Pink Floyd against plani/prelest (spiritual delusion).

So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell,
blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?
And did they get you to trade
your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange
a walk on part in the war
for a lead role in a cage?
How I wish, how I wish you were here.
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl,
year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
What have we found? The same old fears.
Wish you were here.


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