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Author Topic: Orthodox Denominationalism?  (Read 13114 times) Average Rating: 0
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cizinec
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« Reply #90 on: July 06, 2008, 10:08:30 PM »

^ Okay, I got lost in your logic.  What's the OP again? Huh
A brand of shirts.
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« Reply #91 on: July 06, 2008, 10:26:10 PM »

^ Okay, I got lost in your logic.  What's the OP again? Huh

Peter, DavidBryan started the thread with a quote from BrotherAidan comparing the dispute between the MP and EP to Shaq and Kobe of the LA Lakers (red text of BrotherAidan's quote).  The OP also commented on a lack of North American Orthodox Unity.

Having cited the quote in its entire context, I provided a basis for Orthodoxy being United and Non-Denominational using the LA Lakers, Phil Jackson, Kobe & Shaq as examples.

Link to Initial Post of This Thread
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« Reply #92 on: July 06, 2008, 11:58:57 PM »

Okay, I think I've got it now! Orthodox jurisdictions are not like denominations after all, they are like sports franchises!

We'll call it the North American Orthodox League. We can circumvent the political issue of a single hierarch by establishing a comissioner to run the league for that Great GM in the sky!
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« Reply #93 on: July 07, 2008, 12:00:54 AM »

Just kidding with you solEX.   Grin
Hope you are not offended.
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« Reply #94 on: July 07, 2008, 12:18:41 AM »

Just kidding with you solEX.   Grin
Hope you are not offended.

None taken.   Grin
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #95 on: July 07, 2008, 12:29:03 AM »

Peter, DavidBryan started the thread with a quote from BrotherAidan comparing the dispute between the MP and EP to Shaq and Kobe of the LA Lakers (red text of BrotherAidan's quote).  The OP also commented on a lack of North American Orthodox Unity.

Having cited the quote in its entire context, I provided a basis for Orthodoxy being United and Non-Denominational using the LA Lakers, Phil Jackson, Kobe & Shaq as examples.

Link to Initial Post of This Thread
Yes, I know what the OP is.  I just didn't think your convoluted sports franchise logic came even close to resembling or explaining the OP and, if anything, actually detracted from the discussion.
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« Reply #96 on: July 07, 2008, 12:41:18 AM »

Yes, I know what the OP is.  I just didn't think your convoluted sports franchise logic came even close to resembling or explaining the OP and, if anything, actually detracted from the discussion.

Convoluted?  Detracted from the discussion?  How so?   Huh
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #97 on: July 07, 2008, 12:52:29 AM »

Convoluted?  Detracted from the discussion?  How so?   Huh
Simple.  Your logic appeals to a very restricted sphere of interest, those who follow sport closely and understand the dynamics of professional sports teams.  I doubt that those outside of this tiny group, namely most of the posters on this forum, would have even the remotest idea of what you're talking about; hence, they would most likely see your long-winded analogy as nothing more than a cloud of smoke that has nothing to do with the discussion and only muddles things up even more.
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« Reply #98 on: July 07, 2008, 01:16:23 AM »

Simple.  Your logic appeals to a very restricted sphere of interest, those who follow sport closely and understand the dynamics of professional sports teams.  I doubt that those outside of this tiny group, namely most of the posters on this forum, would have even the remotest idea of what you're talking about; hence, they would most likely see your long-winded analogy as nothing more than a cloud of smoke that has nothing to do with the discussion and only muddles things up even more.

Thank You, I felt that I violated something which deserved the words "convoluted" and "detracted."   Smiley

OK, does every post in the forum have to be written for a broad audience?  I still view the post as a well written post and I'll gladly answer questions people may bring up.  I took Technical Writing in College; I think I know how to address an audience, even in cyberspace.   Cheesy
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« Reply #99 on: July 07, 2008, 12:10:05 PM »

Quote
In the US you have Orthodox denominationalism, not unlike protestant denominations.

Certainly the church has given in to denominationalism, the problem is just more acute in North America.  Take divorce for example

Quote
The church will permit up to, but not more than, three marriages for any Orthodox Christian. If both partners are entering a second or third marriage, another form of the marriage ceremony is conducted, much more subdued and penitential in character. Marriages end either through the death of one of the partners or through ecclesiastical recognition of divorce. The Church grants "ecclesiastical divorces" on the basis of the exception given by Christ to his general prohibition of the practice. The Church has frequently deplored the rise of divorce and generally sees divorce as a tragic failure. Yet, the Orthodox Church also recognizes that sometimes the spiritual well-being of Christians caught in a broken and essentially nonexistent marriage justifies a divorce, with the right of one or both of the partners to remarry. Each parish priest is required to do all he can to help couples resolve their differences. If they cannot, and they obtain a civil divorce, they may apply for an ecclesiastical divorce in some jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church. In others, the judgment is left to the parish priest when and if a civilly divorced person seeks to remarry.

Those Orthodox jurisdictions which issue ecclesiastical divorces require a thorough evaluation of the situation, and the appearance of the civilly divorced couple before a local ecclesiastical court, where another investigation is made. Only after an ecclesiastical divorce is issued by the presiding bishop can they apply for an ecclesiastical license to remarry.

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7101.asp

This reflects a different sacramental understanding (since it's centered around the dissolution of a sacrament), and one can get that different understanding by just driving down the street.  The same is true with the reception of converts.  One may need to be received by triple immersion, by chrismation, or simply by confession depending on who you talk to.  You could also point to individuals and entire parishes being excommunicated by one church and then simply moving to the care of another bishop as if nothing happened.  The nationally and ethnically based divisions of the church in the U.S. just give the added appearance of denominationalism (Constantinople said phyletism is a sin, but it has become our international model of ecclesial governance).  On top of that is the congregational polity adopted by most of North American Orthodoxy; which can certainly lend a Protestant feel since the priest can be seen as just the "spiritual leader" of the parish and a hired hand that can be hired or fired at the will of the parish.

Most of these issues are also present in the wider world of Orthodoxy, which may be just the churches in communion with Constantinople, all of the churches of Orthodox lineage (the Old Rite, the various Old Calendarist groups), or other churches of non standard status (like "non canonical" groups comprised of millions of members of various bodies in Ukraine) - the presence of all these groups themselves and the lack of definition of really what it is that comprises the Orthodox Church all just pointing to the basic issue itself.  Ask any of the groups listed above who is Orthodox and you will probably get some different combination of answers.
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Tamara
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« Reply #100 on: July 07, 2008, 02:24:42 PM »

Whether we are separate denominations now or if we are heading that way for the future, one thing is certain, most non-Orthodox people view us as separate denominations. And this perception, whether it is correct or not, will inhibit our ability to
convince them we are the one, true faith.

Since I grew up in the church I was blind to how we are viewed from the outside but I have now been enlightened by the many visitors and inquirers I have met over the last few years.


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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #101 on: July 07, 2008, 09:49:05 PM »

I took Technical Writing in College...
As did I, and got an A in it.
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« Reply #102 on: July 07, 2008, 10:00:20 PM »

As did I, and got an A in it.

What exactly is "technical writing"?
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #103 on: July 07, 2008, 10:05:24 PM »

The tangent on why some people jump jurisdictions moved here:  Prelest - Why Some People Jump Jurisdictions
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 10:14:24 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2008, 10:20:52 PM »

What exactly is "technical writing"?
Watch for my answer in a PM. Wink
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SolEX01
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« Reply #105 on: July 07, 2008, 11:08:09 PM »

As did I, and got an A in it.

Your mastery of Technical Writing shows in your posts - very concise (not convoluted) and to the point (never detracting from any discussion).   Wink

From the wise sayings of Sisoes the Great, which appeared on the July 6, 2008 Orthodox Weekly Bulletin:
Quote
When a man learns to regard every man as better than himself, he can then say he has become humble

So, you are better than I in Technical Writing....
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Riddikulus
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« Reply #106 on: July 07, 2008, 11:29:15 PM »

Your mastery of Technical Writing shows in your posts - very concise (not convoluted) and to the point (never detracting from any discussion).   Wink

I totally agree! Oh, that we all could be so immune to tangents! Grin

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« Reply #107 on: July 09, 2008, 11:15:42 PM »

Thank you Tamara and AMM for your posts.
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