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« on: June 22, 2008, 01:14:36 PM »

What is the specific adjective I would use to describe my affiliation in Orthodoxy?  I am in ACROD.  If I were in GOARCH, I would be Greek Orthodox, ROCOR, Russian Orthodox... and so on... Romanian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox... 

But I don't how to pinpoint the adjective for ACROD.  Would I be Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox?  Ruthenian Orthodox?  Russian Orthodox?

American Orthodox?  Grin
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2008, 01:39:16 PM »

Rusyns are Ukrainians (don't listen if they say they aren't), so you are a Ukrainian Orthodox.

Which does not really matter much in any sense other than merely cultural, because all Orthodox are Orthodox. Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2008, 03:00:05 PM »

Carpathian are also Nordic correct? There seemed to be a link with a Viking heritage tying all the way back to the Romanians and the Danubs.
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2008, 03:34:48 PM »

Rusyns are Ukrainians (don't listen if they say they aren't), so you are a Ukrainian Orthodox.

Which does not really matter much in any sense other than merely cultural, because all Orthodox are Orthodox. Smiley

Heorhij ,
With all due respect, this just isn't the case. The Rusyn people have certainly been persuaded over the years to accept one of the predominant local cultures (Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian) depending on where they found themselves geographically, but this acceptance has little to do with the true identity of Rusyns and more to do with power, politics, and religion. Starting in the 1830s the Rusyns were influenced by (and influenced!) the slavophiles (this was especially the case with the Galician Rusyns). Many found themselves moving more toward a Great Russian identity. Between the 1850s-1870s the Ukrainian movement began to influence Rusyn identity, with more Rusyns making the choice to identify with that particular ethnicity. When the Rusyn emigrants found themselves on this side of the pond, the situation became even more complex. Greek Catholic conversions, Fr. Toth, Russky Amerikanskii Vestnik (and other papers), Mutual Aid Societies, Russian missionaries, etc...all vying for the opportunity to mold Rusyn identity. 

How, exactly, are the Rusyns Ukrainians?
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2008, 03:43:26 PM »

Rusyns are Ukrainians (don't listen if they say they aren't), so you are a Ukrainian Orthodox.

Which does not really matter much in any sense other than merely cultural, because all Orthodox are Orthodox. Smiley

Oh no, you have no idea where this "Rusyns are Ukrainians" statement is going to go Yuri.  I'm going to grab a pepsi and popcorn and watch as this show unfolds.
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2008, 09:42:57 AM »

The simplest answer I can give is You are an Orthodox Christian.  If you were born in the United States you are an  American Orthodox Christian.  If in Canada you are a Canadian Orthodox Christian.  You may worship in  a tradition found with in the Orthodox Church but you remain an Orthodox Christian. I was Chrismated through the Greek Otrthodox Church. I have lived where there was only a ROCOR Mission.  I have lived where there was only a Greek Parish. I have lived where there is only an Antiochian Parish serving my area.  I ma an Orthodox Chritsina and as an American who moves around  the country I have had to learn that is my identity and enjoy the rich traditions of the Church that  make Orthodoxy available where I live.

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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2008, 02:25:20 PM »

Oh no, you have no idea where this "Rusyns are Ukrainians" statement is going to go Yuri.  I'm going to grab a pepsi and popcorn and watch as this show unfolds.

Sorry to have disappointed you, Username. I did not watch this thread for a while.  Grin

To Bogolyubtsy's question, how are Rusyns Ukrainians: in Ukraine, they certainly are. There is no separate Rusyn language and separate Ukrainian language in both urban and rural Western Ukraine. True, in the Carpatian Mountains and in the Transcarpatian oblast, people speak a peculiar dialect of the Ukrainian language, with some unique vocabulary (e.g., they say пeрстeнь instead of палeць (finger), бeсєда instead of розмова (talk, conversation), etc. - but if you think about it, there are also peculiar dialects in the Northwestern Ukraine (Polissya), in the extreme East (Slobids'ka Ukrayina), etc. No sane person would say that people from, say, Northumbria are not English, because their dialect is not quite like that of the inhabitants of London or Bristol. Rusyny are a genuine part of the one great Ukrainian nation, one under God indivisible. Smiley In the diaspora, of course, Rusyny suffer from a typical case of lost identity.  Shocked
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2008, 02:27:00 PM »

Carpathian are also Nordic correct? There seemed to be a link with a Viking heritage tying all the way back to the Romanians and the Danubs.

Yes. All Ukrainians (not just Carpathian Ukrainians) have this link, although it's pretty remote.
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2008, 02:49:58 PM »

I was in ACROD for 22 years of my life. I said I was American orthodox. Although this probably had to do with my strong dislike for "Rusyn" nationalism.

-Nick
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2008, 02:53:55 PM »

What is the specific adjective I would use to describe my affiliation in Orthodoxy?  I am in ACROD.  If I were in GOARCH, I would be Greek Orthodox, ROCOR, Russian Orthodox... and so on... Romanian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox... 

But I don't how to pinpoint the adjective for ACROD.  Would I be Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox?  Ruthenian Orthodox?  Russian Orthodox?

American Orthodox?  Grin

Brother, In Christ there are no Carpatho-Rusyns.   Wink
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2008, 02:56:12 PM »

I was in ACROD for 22 years of my life. I said I was American orthodox. Although this probably had to do with my strong dislike for "Rusyn" nationalism.

-Nick

It's like a "Northumbrian nationalism," or a "Cornwall nationalism..." The only difference is, England has been England for many centuries and everyone knew it, while Ukraine (originally Русь, Rus') was a non-entity, thanks to the Muscovite propaganda...  Wink
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2008, 03:05:50 PM »

Well lets mix this up even a bit more.

Ukrainians are Russians too!  laugh Wink Tongue
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2008, 03:13:34 PM »

But aren't there those in Eastern Ukraine whom the Ukrainian government would identify as Ukrainian who self-identify more with Moscow than with Kyiv?  What's the difference between Muscovites who would still rather talk about the Ukraine and Ukrainians who refuse to accept the self-identification of Carpatho-Rusyns as a separate cultural group?  In the end, isn't it all just nationalist politics?  The language of those who call themselves Rusyn in western Ukraine is as close to the language of the Pannonian Rusyns in Serbia/Croatia as it is to standard Ukrainian.  If I'm not mistaken, Ethnologue, which ultimately has no political agenda as far as I'm concerned, considers Pannonian Rusyn to be a dialect of Slovak.  Would you say that Slovak is just a dialect of Ukrainian?

From my studies of the issue (which are paltry, I admit), it seems to me that the Presov Rusyn most of my parish members families speak could be considered a mix of Slovak and Ukrainian, enough to differentiate it from both as a separate language, much like how Lallans Scots of southern Scotland is a separate language from standard English even though a native English speaker could probably follow along and understand a Scots speaker and vice versa.

All this reminds me of how many Native American tribes were lumped together into one larger tribe by the federal government (the Seminoles and Cherokee spring to mind) simply because the feds thought that since a number of tribes spoke related languages they were really "one people", totally ignoring the fact that each of those tribes within the construct saw themselves, at least at the time of the consolodation, as separate peoples.  

While my sympathies definitely lie with Ukrainians vis-a-vis "Muscovite propaganda" as George put it, by principle they also lie with ethnic Rusyns vis-a-vis "Kyivite propaganda". Wink
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2008, 03:14:31 PM »

Well lets mix this up even a bit more.

Ukrainians are Russians too!  laugh Wink Tongue

Actually, ONLY Ukrainians are "real" "Russians." Until the very late 17-th century, the self-identification of those Eastern Slavs who lived to the west of the Don river, where the territory of modern Ukraine is, was руські, руси, русичі, русини ("Rusy," "Ruskies""). The self-dentification of those Eastern Slavs who lived to the north of the Don (where the city of Moscow appeared in the 12th century) and between the Don and the Volga rivers was москва, московиты, московлянe (Moskva, the Muscovites). They clearly separated themselves from the Rus'" (us, Ukrainians). The term "Ukraine" is not ethnic, but purely geographic, coming from the term окраїна, i.e. edge, border, frontier.
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2008, 03:16:41 PM »

While my sympathies definitely lie with Ukrainians vis-a-vis "Muscovite propaganda" as George put it, by principle they also lie with ethnic Rusyns vis-a-vis "Kyivite propaganda". Wink

Point taken. Sorry, I am a mouthpiece of the Kyivite propaganda.  police
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2008, 03:21:45 PM »

Point taken. Sorry, I am a mouthpiece of the Kyivite propaganda.  police

That's okay, I still love you Wink
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2008, 03:36:49 PM »

Point taken. Sorry, I am a mouthpiece of the Kyivite propaganda.  police

Mazeppa rides again. Wink

There's a new book out (2006) by Serhii Plokhy called The Origins of Slavic Nations.
I've only browsed the introduction, but it seems he's setting out to examine the birth and historical trajectory of the Slavic nations without being biased by previous "Kievan" or "Muscovite" political/historical influence. At least that's his stated goal. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Until I hear otherwise, Ukraine will still be "little russia". Wink

http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Slavic-Nations-Premodern-Identities/dp/0521864038
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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2008, 04:36:45 PM »

Mazeppa rides again. Wink

And what's wrong with Ivan Stepanovych Mazepa? Who did more for Ukrainian Orthodox churches, who built the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, who donated a good half or more of all his personal treasures to monasteries (his mother was a nun), to hospitals, etc.? Mazepa was a great man, a true hero of my people... He was maligned, libeled - they made up a story that he was trying to "sell" Ukraine to the Swedes, while he actually only sought a temporary military alliance with the Swedish king, to oust the satanic tsar Peter from his land, to preserve those ancient customs of freeeeeeeedom (see "Braveheart...") Smiley

There's a new book out (2006) by Serhii Plokhy called The Origins of Slavic Nations.
I've only browsed the introduction, but it seems he's setting out to examine the birth and historical trajectory of the Slavic nations without being biased by previous "Kievan" or "Muscovite" political/historical influence. At least that's his stated goal. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Until I hear otherwise, Ukraine will still be "little russia". Wink
http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Slavic-Nations-Premodern-Identities/dp/0521864038

Thank you. I haven't read this book, but Serhiy is a good old friend of mine, we met when my family and I lived in Seattle.
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2008, 05:19:25 PM »

Also, if interested in the Rusyn question- besides from Magosci's obvious body of work (from which he could be credited in almost creating a national consciousness for Rusyns, meaning that most have called themselves Russians, Ukrainians, Lemko, etc.), you (plural you) might find it interesting to read Elaine Rusinko's Book Straddling Borders: Literature and Identity in Subcarpathian Rus. The title explains the gist of her research- how Rusyns have explained and understood themselves through their literature. Often this literature shows that they define themselves not by what they are, but by what they are not.

http://www.amazon.ca/Straddling-Borders-Literature-Identity-Subcarpathian/dp/0802037119

Personally, my "Rusyn" family members (whose surname I have) never called themselves "Rusyn", but Russian.
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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2008, 05:44:29 PM »

And what's wrong with Ivan Stepanovych Mazepa? Who did more for Ukrainian Orthodox churches, who built the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, who donated a good half or more of all his personal treasures to monasteries (his mother was a nun), to hospitals, etc.? Mazepa was a great man, a true hero of my people... He was maligned, libeled - they made up a story that he was trying to "sell" Ukraine to the Swedes, while he actually only sought a temporary military alliance with the Swedish king, to oust the satanic tsar Peter from his land, to preserve those ancient customs of freeeeeeeedom (see "Braveheart...") Smiley

Thank you. I haven't read this book, but Serhiy is a good old friend of mine, we met when my family and I lived in Seattle.

Must be nice knowing him personally. Smiley

I have no problem with Mazepa- it was only in jest. Wink
Have you ever read the Church's anathema on Mazepa? Ouch.
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« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2008, 05:49:19 PM »

Well, you could stick to your jurisdiction's name and say you're Carpatho-Russian Orthodox, which is an archaic way of saying Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox.

The second would get a response of 'What?'; the first 'Oh, Russian Orthodox' to which you can think 'Close enough'. (The person will then probably think you're Jewish.)
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« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2008, 06:58:25 PM »

Must be nice knowing him personally. Smiley

Oh, yes! He is about my age (~50), and still a Ukrainian citizen like myself, even though he lives in Canada and I live in the US since 1990. He is very erudite and an extremely nice guy. I look forward to everything he writes. Thanks again for the information about his book.

I have no problem with Mazepa- it was only in jest. Wink
Have you ever read the Church's anathema on Mazepa? Ouch.

OK, sorry for my thickness, I did not get your irony about Mazepa. The anathema was actually lifted by the Russian Orthodox Church itself: a representative of His Holyness Patriarch Tikhon read the text of the lifting of the anathema during a meeting on the St. Sophia Square in Kyiv in 1918 or 1919. I don't have a link at hand, but I do remember reading that it actually did happen. Of course, sadly, Patriach Tikhon was martyred by the Bolsheviks, and everything he did to restore the peace with this "nationalist" Ukraine was buried by the Bolshevik powers-that-be...
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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2008, 07:04:06 PM »

Oh, yes! He is about my age (~50), and still a Ukrainian citizen like myself, even though he lives in Canada and I live in the US since 1990. He is very erudite and an extremely nice guy. I look forward to everything he writes. Thanks again for the information about his book.

OK, sorry for my thickness, I did not get your irony about Mazepa. The anathema was actually lifted by the Russian Orthodox Church itself: a representative of His Holyness Patriarch Tikhon read the text of the lifting of the anathema during a meeting on the St. Sophia Square in Kyiv in 1918 or 1919. I don't have a link at hand, but I do remember reading that it actually did happen. Of course, sadly, Patriach Tikhon was martyred by the Bolsheviks, and everything he did to restore the peace with this "nationalist" Ukraine was buried by the Bolshevik powers-that-be...

Looking back it was difficult to pick up my tone about Mazepa. Sorry for that.
Yes, I think every Orthodox Christian should be pleased with the lifting of that silly anathema (edit: If it actually took place. I'm not so sure it was, but would like to believe so).  I don't know if the anathema's text is online somewhere, but Mazepa is again and again made an equal to Judas and this silliness was of course read aloud in the Empire's church's. Not a very "edifying" service- at least not for anyone besides Peter.
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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2008, 07:40:16 PM »

About Mazepa:

Mazepa's decision to abandon his allegiance to the Russian Empire was considered treason by the Russian tsar and a violation of the Treaty of Pereyaslav. However others argue that it was Imperial Russia who broke the treaty, because it failed to even try to protect the Cossack homeland while busy fighting abroad[citation needed]. The image of a disgraceful traitor persisted throughout Russian and Soviet history. The Russian Orthodox Church excommunicated him. A positive view of Mazepa was taboo in the Soviet Union and considered as a sign of "Ukrainian bourgeois nationalism". During the years of Perestroika, however, many historical works saw light which viewed Mazepa differently. After Ukraine's independence in 1991, Mazepa was proclaimed a national hero in Ukraine's official historiography and mainstream media[citation needed], because he was the first post-Pereyaslav Treaty hetman to take a stand against the Tsar, who failed to ratify that Treaty. This view however is still disputed by the pro-Russian factions. Mazepa's portrait is found on Ukrainian currency - the 10 hryvnia bill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mazepa

(A couple things I might add: the so-called Peter the "Great" was a very sick man, an epileptic, who was notorious for his hatred of the Church; as a youth, he embraced a very ungodly lifestyle in the so-called "Kokuj" or the "German Village" near Moscow, where he befriended a Scottish Calvinist named Patrick Gordon, and a number of others who were extremely hostile to Orthodoxy; he abandoned his lawful wedded wife, Natalia Naryshkina, and had her imprisoned in a monastery against her will; as an already mature man and a Tzar, he organized, and actively participated in, numerous drunken orgies called "Vseshutejshyje Sobory" (literally, "Jest Ecumenical Counsils"), where men filled with vodka were impersonating Patriarchs and Metropolitans; he "married" a German prostitute (of a Latvian and Lithuanian ethnicity) called Katarina Skavronaite, who later became an "empress" Catherine I; he ordered that there would be no successor to the late Patriach Adrian of Moscow, and by his imperial power, established the so-called "Holy Synod" INSTEAD of the Patriarchy (the structure of this "Holy" Synod being modelled, by his faithful accomplice Theophan Prokopovych, a xerox copy of the German Protestant "synodes"); during the reign of this Peter the "great" the population of the Russian empire diminished substantially, and innumerable thousands of Ukrainian cossaks were enslaved and subjected to the lethal forced labor, building foretresses and towns to glorify this "holy" ruler of what eventually became the USSR.)
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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2008, 07:46:21 PM »

About Mazepa:

Mazepa's decision to abandon his allegiance to the Russian Empire was considered treason by the Russian tsar and a violation of the Treaty of Pereyaslav. However others argue that it was Imperial Russia who broke the treaty, because it failed to even try to protect the Cossack homeland while busy fighting abroad[citation needed]. The image of a disgraceful traitor persisted throughout Russian and Soviet history. The Russian Orthodox Church excommunicated him. A positive view of Mazepa was taboo in the Soviet Union and considered as a sign of "Ukrainian bourgeois nationalism". During the years of Perestroika, however, many historical works saw light which viewed Mazepa differently. After Ukraine's independence in 1991, Mazepa was proclaimed a national hero in Ukraine's official historiography and mainstream media[citation needed], because he was the first post-Pereyaslav Treaty hetman to take a stand against the Tsar, who failed to ratify that Treaty. This view however is still disputed by the pro-Russian factions. Mazepa's portrait is found on Ukrainian currency - the 10 hryvnia bill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mazepa

(A couple things I might add: the so-called Peter the "Great" was a very sick man, an epileptic, who was notorious for his hatred of the Church; as a youth, he embraced a very ungodly lifestyle in the so-called "Kokuj" or the "German Village" near Moscow, where he befriended a Scottish Calvinist named Patrick Gordon, and a number of others who were extremely hostile to Orthodoxy; he abandoned his lawful wedded wife, Natalia Naryshkina, and had her imprisoned in a monastery against her will; as an already mature man and a Tzar, he organized, and actively participated in, numerous drunken orgies called "Vseshutejshyje Sobory" (literally, "Jest Ecumenical Counsils"), where men filled with vodka were impersonating Patriarchs and Metropolitans; he "married" a German prostitute (of a Latvian and Lithuanian ethnicity) called Katarina Skavronaite, who later became an "empress" Catherine I; he ordered that there would be no successor to the late Patriach Adrian of Moscow, and by his imperial power, established the so-called "Holy Synod" INSTEAD of the Patriarchy (the structure of this "Holy" Synod being modelled, by his faithful accomplice Theophan Prokopovych, a xerox copy of the German Protestant "synodes"); during the reign of this Peter the "great" the population of the Russian empire diminished substantially, and innumerable thousands of Ukrainian cossaks were enslaved and subjected to the lethal forced labor, building foretresses and towns to glorify this "holy" ruler of what eventually became the USSR.)


Thanks for that bit, Heorhij.
Peter certainly made a mockery of Orthodoxy. If interested, you should check out The Transfigured Kingdom by Ernest Zitser for more on his mock synod and the "All Drunken Council", among other seemingly crazy aspects of his personality and reign. (Sorry for all of the book suggestions- I'm reading for my doctoral exams next Spring)
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« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2008, 08:09:12 PM »



I can tell you that my family is from the areas that are considered "Rusyn."  But guess what, we always identified as being Ukrainian.  I guess we're the few Carpathian Mountain folk that actually recognize ourselves as Ukrainian in the diaspora. 
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« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2008, 08:17:52 PM »



I can tell you that my family is from the areas that are considered "Rusyn."  But guess what, we always identified as being Ukrainian.  I guess we're the few Carpathian Mountain folk that actually recognize ourselves as Ukrainian in the diaspora. 

Well, region, religion, and the particular wave of immigration often had much to do with identification. When did they come to the US, if you don't mind me asking?
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« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2008, 09:30:02 PM »



I can tell you that my family is from the areas that are considered "Rusyn."  But guess what, we always identified as being Ukrainian.  I guess we're the few Carpathian Mountain folk that actually recognize ourselves as Ukrainian in the diaspora. 

Good.. good...  Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2008, 09:59:20 PM »

Dear folks, may I just add to what I have written above that I am no Russophobe. In fact, my parents' language was Russian (although my grandfather's native and actually only language was Ukrainian), and I, as a 4 or a 4.5-y.o., started to read at once, in parallel, in Russian as well as in Ukrainian. I admire the great Russian culture, especially literature (Lev Tolstoy is - has always beeen, and will perhaps remain as long as I live, - my number one creator of the literary depiction of the human character, human soul, of all people who have ever touched a pen, in the whole wide world). Generally, I don't have one xenophobic, ethnophobic bone in my body. But I have always been deeply, profoundly disturbed, saddened by the Russian imperial chauvinism, by the notion that if you speak well of Mazepa or other so-called "nationalists," then you are an enemy and an inferior being. I deeply believe that Ukrainians and Russians should be and eventually (God willing) will be good neighbors, like Swedes and Norwegians, or like Spanish and Portuguese. If anyone, anywhere, at anytime, however, convinces the humankind that Ukrainians and Russians are the same people and that the "nationalists" are evil - then I will fight that tooth and nail, sort of the same way as Greeks would fight when someone says that they are the same as  Turks (you know, black hair, tan skin, strange language, same land, same warm sea somewhere outside of the USA, etc.).
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« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2008, 01:08:03 AM »

Well, region, religion, and the particular wave of immigration often had much to do with identification. When did they come to the US, if you don't mind me asking?

It really doesn't matter when we came here because the fact remains that they were Ukrainians. 
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« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2008, 09:54:29 AM »

Half of my wife's family are "Greek-Catholic" and identify themselves as Slovaks (although they have Ukrainian-type names).  They follow Slovak custom, etc.  My Polish father-in-law is American and not a <<deleted>> Pole.

What are Carpatho-Rusyns?  Whatever they want to be.

What religion are you?  Orthodox.
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« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2008, 11:45:42 AM »

It really doesn't matter when we came here because the fact remains that they were Ukrainians. 

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