Author Topic: is my Chrismation Valid???  (Read 3791 times)

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Offline celestial chi

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is my Chrismation Valid???
« on: June 21, 2008, 09:19:54 PM »
Hi there eveyone, Im a newly Chrismed Orthodox Christian (i was Chrismed on tuesday of Holy Week) at St Georges Greek Orthodox Church in Brisbane, Australia (one of the happiest days of life ;D)
However I meet another Orthodox Christian from the Russian (ROCOR) church who said that my chrimation wasnt valid cause I wasnt re-baptised...I come from a Traditional Roman Catholic Background and my preist said that all Trinatarian Baptisms were considered valid and all I needed was Chrismation...so Im wondering If i should be concered that my reception into Holy Orthodoxy isnt valid???
"In this sign you shall conquer"

Offline Rosehip

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2008, 09:26:55 PM »
Welcome to the Faith and the Forum, celestial chi (btw, what a beautiful name!) ! May God grant you many years!

There will be others here giving you much better answers than I can give, but I am sure your conversion is valid even if you weren't baptised. I'm ROCOR and I know it's their policy to baptize just about everyone, but other jurisdictions only chrismate. I was received into the Church by baptism although I had been baptised(pouring) earlier as an adult.Since baptism means immersion, I like to say I wasn't re-baptized since technically speaking pouring is  pouring and not baptism-but this is another tangent-sorry.  I would say you're a full-fledged Orthodox Christian anyhow.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 09:28:17 PM by Rosehip »
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2008, 09:29:35 PM »
First, congratulations on your chrismation and many years!

Second, welcome to the board!

Third, (and finally answering your question) your ROCOR friend is wrong and your priest is correct, insofar as chrismation alone being sufficient (although I think his reasoning is off).  You'll find a number of threads around here on this debate, but the long and short of it is that historically, the Church has not had a universal practice for receiving converts from other Christian groups.  Some are received by baptism while others are received by chrismation alone.  I would argue that we do not accept other baptisms as valid; we do, however, believe that the grace imparted at chrismation retroactively completes the baptism, so long as it was done in a proper manner.  In other words, the prior baptism might have been an empty shell, but it was filled with grace by your Orthodox chrismation (giving you an Orthodox baptism!).  As a practical matter, though, I would suggest that it is your bishop's and synod's place to determine the proper means of receiving you.  So long as it was done in accordance with their pastoral guidance, I think you'll find that nearly Orthodox Christians accept it as being valid.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2008, 09:34:52 PM »
Many Years to the Newly Illumined Servant of God!
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline jlerms

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2008, 10:17:25 PM »
Congratulations and many years Celestial Chi!!

Juliana

Offline username!

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2008, 02:42:44 AM »
There is no such thing as re-baptism. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 02:43:18 AM by username! »

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2008, 04:37:33 AM »
Congratulations on your entry into the Church - and many years!!
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Offline buzuxi

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2008, 04:53:31 AM »
As others have said there is no such thing as re-baptism, the church only acknowledges One baptism. Also the terminology of a "(VALID)" former baptism is not Orthodox neither.

When a person from a heterodox background is recieved into the Church by Chrismation, it simply means his former confession baptised using the Trinitarian formula and thus the Church through Eikonomia can seize that heterodox ritual and make it Her very own. The heterodox ritual becomes an Orthodox baptism upon Chrismation, whatever may have been lacking (or even if it was empty altogether) is corrected and made full.

Anotherwords the bishop could have adviced your priest to baptise you (as ROCOR usually does), which would have been your first and only baptism, instead you were recieved thru the principle of eikonomia ,in which your former empty ritual became an Orthodox sacrament upon reception into Holy Orthodoxy. The Orthodox church does not recognize sacraments outside Her, so calling non-Orthodox practises as "valid" is false.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 04:54:54 AM by buzuxi »

Offline Papa Gregorio

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2008, 09:05:00 AM »
Congratulations from one former "traditional" Roman Catholic to another! I presume you were received into the Church by the very highly esteemed Fr. Dimitri Sarkas?

The argument that your Chrismation is invalid is pure nonsense and suggests an understanding of Baptism more akin to a magical formula.

The practice of our Archdiocese in respect to Roman Catholic converts is the same as that of St. Mark of Ephesus and other luminaries. Your ROCOR friend should also be reminded that a number of saints on his own calendar - most notably St. Elizabeth the Grand Duchess - were received into the Church by the very same Chrismation he considers "invalid".

God bless you on your journey mate.



 

 

Offline Didymus

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2008, 09:22:59 AM »
celestial chi, congratulations!
Our local mission receives several priests. One who is very important to the mission does not baptise Roman Catholics whilst another who is also important to the mission does re-baptise Roman Catholics. The former priest was raised in an area where there were many conservative Roman Catholics and even went to one of the schools. The latter is aware of the many liberal Roman Catholics who exist in areas not far from ours. This is really a question of the priest's view on two issues:
1) Whether or not Roman Catholics are part of the Church.
2) Whether or not baptisms performed using a Trinitarian formula by those outside the Church are valid.

In short, it seems like you're fine mate 8)

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Offline celestial chi

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 09:31:59 AM »
Thank you all very much for putting my mind at ease...and for your warm welcome to this board.
regurding the ROCOR dude who said that to me: well after hearing all your responces from the various Different Churches including members of the ROCOR; I would guess that he simp;y probably didnt know what he was talking about...he was layman and a young one at that (maybe 22 or 23 yrs old) so I will give him the benefit of the doubt dat he wasnt being some fanatic lol


No Actually it was not Fr Dimiti who recieved me...However Fr Dimiti has become my father-confessor, and a great one at that; comming from a Roman Catholic background I thought i was prepared for and knew what to expect when it came to confession (bascily)...i was wrong...its far more intense and  Father Dimitri is by far one of the most spiritual men I know.

Once again all thank you all for your welcome  :)
"In this sign you shall conquer"

Offline Didymus

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2008, 11:37:44 AM »
...comming from a Roman Catholic background I thought i was prepared for and knew what to expect when it came to confession (bascily)...i was wrong...its far more intense

Having come from a Protestant background I'm not sure what you mean by this. If it's not impolite to ask, would you please mind elaborating on what you mean? If you prefer you could send a Personal Message if you would rather not post your reply in here. It's alright if you would rather not reply further though.

Thank you and pray for me please.
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Offline StGeorge

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2008, 01:09:29 PM »
I was "baptized" in the Latin Church, and I was chrismated in the Orthodox Church via ACROD.  Would ROCOR priests refuse the mysteries to me on the basis that I have not been baptized (according to their understanding)?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 01:09:55 PM by StGeorge »

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2008, 02:16:05 PM »
I was "baptized" in the Latin Church, and I was chrismated in the Orthodox Church via ACROD.  Would ROCOR priests refuse the mysteries to me on the basis that I have not been baptized (according to their understanding)?

No, you would not be refused Communion on this basis.

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2008, 02:17:00 PM »
I was "baptized" in the Latin Church, and I was chrismated in the Orthodox Church via ACROD.  Would ROCOR priests refuse the mysteries to me on the basis that I have not been baptized (according to their understanding)?

As long as you go to confession that morning or the night before, you can receive the mysteries at a ROCOR parish.
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Offline Thomas

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2008, 09:47:25 AM »
Have no fears, you are Orthodox. If your Bishop permits the oeconomia for Chrismation alone you have no problem in this matter. It is not for your friend as a layman to say whether you are Orthodox or not.

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Offline Heorhij

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2008, 11:14:54 AM »
I also have a similar concern in the back of my mind.. I was baptized in a Presbyterian Church, then chrismated in the Orthodox Church, but the chrism I was chrismated with had been blessed by a Milan Synod bishop. Technically speaking, since no other jurisdiction recognizes Milan Synod as Orthodox, they aren't fully Orthodox (no matter what they themselves say), and, hence, my chrismation was not done by the Orthodox Church...

But then, again, why should I worry. Whatever my priest and bishop say, I'll do...
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Offline prodromas

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2008, 10:38:22 PM »
I also have a similar concern in the back of my mind.. I was baptized in a Presbyterian Church, then chrismated in the Orthodox Church, but the chrism I was chrismated with had been blessed by a Milan Synod bishop. Technically speaking, since no other jurisdiction recognizes Milan Synod as Orthodox, they aren't fully Orthodox (no matter what they themselves say), and, hence, my chrismation was not done by the Orthodox Church...

But then, again, why should I worry. Whatever my priest and bishop say, I'll do...

George did you explain the situation to your priest and bishop?
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Offline Keble

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2008, 11:13:02 PM »
Obviously if the church you are in says you are validly chrismated, then you are. Kibbitzers from other churches have no say in the matter, even if they are clerics or even bishops.

Offline recent convert

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2008, 07:28:09 AM »
God grant you many years. You have seen the true light and received the heavenly spirit. The arrogance of some layperson to second guess a valid sacrament and distress a newly illumined is disgraceful. Lord have mercy.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2008, 02:48:45 PM »
George did you explain the situation to your priest and bishop?

Not sure about the bishop, but my priest knows.
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Offline Amdetsion

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2008, 03:36:05 PM »
The Ethiopian Church is more like the Russian Church. ALL converts must be baptised and chrismated. NO exceptions.

We do not consider Roman Catholic -to- Orthodox a "conversion". As such RC's are given a training on 'orthodoxy' then chrismated. A bishop or priest based on his discretion may baptise a RC under certain conditions.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2008, 05:07:09 PM »
Not sure about the bishop, but my priest knows.

If your Priest used Economia to accept your Chrismation by a non-Canonical Orthodox Jurisdiction, I would suggest not to worry about it anymore especially if you've had Sacraments performed by the canonical Orthodox Jurisdiction like Communion, Holy Matrimony, Holy Unction, et al.  After all, we Orthodox don't carry around papers proving that we're Orthodox Christians like a Driver's License, lol.   ;D

Edited for clarity and relevance
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 05:18:10 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2008, 05:10:24 PM »
Deacon Amdetsion, if any EO wishes to be received into the Ethiopian Church, do you still baptize the EO even though that individual has already been baptized or do you provide a cathecesis of the Ethiopian Church and receive them by chrismation or do you do nothing?

The Ethiopian Church is more like the Russian Church. ALL converts must be baptised and chrismated. NO exceptions.

We do not consider Roman Catholic -to- Orthodox a "conversion". As such RC's are given a training on 'orthodoxy' then chrismated. A bishop or priest based on his discretion may baptise a RC under certain conditions.

Offline Heorhij

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2008, 06:30:13 PM »
If your Priest used Economia to accept your Chrismation by a non-Canonical Orthodox Jurisdiction, I would suggest not to worry about it anymore especially if you've had Sacraments performed by the canonical Orthodox Jurisdiction like Communion, Holy Matrimony, Holy Unction, et al.  After all, we Orthodox don't carry around papers proving that we're Orthodox Christians like a Driver's License, lol.   ;D

Edited for clarity and relevance

Thank you, this is very supportive. Yes, I heard this term, "economia," and I wholly trust the wisdom of my Church.
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Offline Amdetsion

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2008, 03:29:44 PM »
Deacon Amdetsion, if any EO wishes to be received into the Ethiopian Church, do you still baptize the EO even though that individual has already been baptized or do you provide a cathecesis of the Ethiopian Church and receive them by chrismation or do you do nothing?


EOs' and OOs' are Orthodox Christians.

That which is 'supposed' to be dividing EO and OO are acts of man. We create problem for ourselves. There is nothing holy or mysterious about division. Anybody can create it. Its getting rid of it that takes the real myrical.

The sacraments are divine, holy and mysterious. We men have no power over them.

There are people by the millions upon millions who have recieved the holy mysteries within the OO (and EO) community over the last millenia. When the Fathers of this age finally lift the anathemas against each other how will they correct all the baptisms and chrismations of people who are long past on that "supposedly" are not valid?

Please fell free not to answer that question.

You know that there is only one Church. And that Church was not established in Constantinople; but in Jerusalem. The Church is One Holy Universal and Apostolic in the Lord Jesus Christ.

If a person is a true member of this Church and elects to worship with the Ethiopian tradition what is to stop him? We have no reason to baptise the baptised or chrismate the chrismated.

In any event the Ethiopian bishop will make the decision based on the circumstances.
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Offline Simayan

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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2008, 04:07:21 PM »
EOs' and OOs' are Orthodox Christians.

That which is 'supposed' to be dividing EO and OO are acts of man. We create problem for ourselves. There is nothing holy or mysterious about division. Anybody can create it. Its getting rid of it that takes the real myrical.

The sacraments are divine, holy and mysterious. We men have no power over them.

There are people by the millions upon millions who have recieved the holy mysteries within the OO (and EO) community over the last millenia. When the Fathers of this age finally lift the anathemas against each other how will they correct all the baptisms and chrismations of people who are long past on that "supposedly" are not valid?

Please fell free not to answer that question.

You know that there is only one Church. And that Church was not established in Constantinople; but in Jerusalem. The Church is One Holy Universal and Apostolic in the Lord Jesus Christ.

If a person is a true member of this Church and elects to worship with the Ethiopian tradition what is to stop him? We have no reason to baptise the baptised or chrismate the chrismated.

In any event the Ethiopian bishop will make the decision based on the circumstances.

Excellent post. Furthermore, our priest has been given permission to give communion to Ethiopians, Armenians, and any OOs' that come to our church. We're getting close - I have faith it will happen in my lifetime.
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Re: is my Chrismation Valid???
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2008, 02:05:04 AM »
I like saying it because it is true......... there is no such thing as re-baptism or being baptized again!