Author Topic: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics  (Read 49533 times)

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Offline SolEX01

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #270 on: August 27, 2008, 12:54:28 AM »
In that case I misinterpreted what you were saying, my apologies.

Apologies accepted.  When I saw Colossus, I saw what was initially a good idea become an epic nightmare whose creator couldn't reign back under control.  I was making the same point for genetic engineering since the premise appears to be a good idea and we've seen some good and some bad while not knowing if or when that inflection point has been crossed (e.g. when man loses control of the innovations caused by genetic engineering).

So are you suggesting that there is no genetic component to intelligence? Everyone is capable of being a Euler, or Gödel, or, my personal favourite, Gauss, born in the 18th century to impoverished proletariat parents in Lower Saxony, and yet became perhaps the greatest mathematician ever?

I'm not sure where intelligence comes from if it comes from DNA or eating Wheaties or some scientifically unexplainable phenomenon or something metaphysical.  I was a Math phenom back in the day and that helped me a long way, until, something happened to me and the love of Math (along with other exuberances) went awry.

I'm sure many young children have had good encouragement and yet still have not managed to accomplish anything approaching the notable expansion of number theory, the expansion of real analysis, the development of abstract algebra, the development of non-euclidian geometry, and the turning of differential geometry into an advanced mathematical field. Not to mention his hobby of dabbling in physics where he developed a system of measurment for magnetism. Heck, the rest of us must just be REALLY, REALLY lazy.

Maybe Gauss had that special metaphysical gift or some scientifically unexplainable phenomenon.  I really liked Gauss so much that I could explain flux theory to the opposite sex.  Didn't help me out much in the romance department.   ;)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #271 on: August 27, 2008, 12:58:03 AM »
Or to take things a step further yet, is the only difference between the intelligence of a human and the intelligence of a chimpanzee our superior mentoring abilities? For some reason I'm going to bet on genetic mutation that's favourable to us.

Koko the gorilla has been using sign language for 35 years or so.  I'd bet on that genetic mutuation which went in favor of the cousin whose descendents resulted in humans.  I wonder what happened to the 10th or 100th cousin of that mutuation who "regressed" and sought companionship with female chimpanzees or other primates?  Maybe Koko resulted from that subsequent union....

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #272 on: August 27, 2008, 01:23:56 AM »
Apologies accepted.  When I saw Colossus, I saw what was initially a good idea become an epic nightmare whose creator couldn't reign back under control.  I was making the same point for genetic engineering since the premise appears to be a good idea and we've seen some good and some bad while not knowing if or when that inflection point has been crossed (e.g. when man loses control of the innovations caused by genetic engineering).

I think that science and technology is morally netural...it can all be used for the benefit or harm of humanity. However, even that development of greatest destructive potential, nuclear physics, has yet to prove to be end of the world that many predicted it to be.

Quote
I'm not sure where intelligence comes from if it comes from DNA or eating Wheaties or some scientifically unexplainable phenomenon or something metaphysical.  I was a Math phenom back in the day and that helped me a long way, until, something happened to me and the love of Math (along with other exuberances) went awry.

Maybe Gauss had that special metaphysical gift or some scientifically unexplainable phenomenon.

That's one theoretical explanation, but not a very helpful one since on account of the presuppositions it can neither be proven nor disproven. However, there seems to be substantial evidence that there is some genetic influence on intelligence, not only in the difference between our intelligence and the intelligence between are close cousins, the other great apes...but also amongst humans intelligence seems to be hereditary. There's no doubt that proper encouragement and education play a HUGE role, it pains me to think how much more advanced we would be today if everyone were given the opportunity to live up to their full potential over the last 2000 years (though, perhaps the development of the atom bomb in the dark ages would have been the end of the human race, it may very well have been for the better we that had the opportunity to mature a bit before receiving such awsome power).

However, it still seems that some simply have a genetic limitation they cannot overcome. In my advanced mathematics classes there were always some people who worked much, much harder than the rest of us, studying for hours and days concepts they could never grasp, yet others of us would hear it mentioned one time in class, it was obvious to us, we never revisited the concept again, but had no problem with it on the test. Some attended every class, studied 10 hours a week, and still ended up with D's, while others of us prefered to sleep in, made maybe half the classes, never got below a B, and generally got A's.

There was obviously something more than effort and even childhood influences (while I'm told that my biological father was something as a mathematical prodigy, neither my mother nor my step father could ever manage to pass algebra).

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I really liked Gauss so much that I could explain flux theory to the opposite sex.  Didn't help me out much in the romance department.   ;)

I love Gauss and could speak of him and his theorems for hours...but probably not the best conversation topic when trying to get laid...unless she also happens to be a math major. ;)

Koko the gorilla has been using sign language for 35 years or so.  I'd bet on that genetic mutuation which went in favor of the cousin whose descendents resulted in humans.  I wonder what happened to the 10th or 100th cousin of that mutuation who "regressed" and sought companionship with female chimpanzees or other primates?  Maybe Koko resulted from that subsequent union....

I have little doubt that some of the alleles for intelligence in humans can be found in other primates, though obviously other alleles are lacking. While Koko may be able to speak to us and even carry on a conversation, I doubt he's going to expand the field of topology any time in the near future...but then again, neither are most humans, and some that I know really can't even carry on a conversation...so maybe Koko acutally is a lot closer to us than we'd like to admit. ;)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 01:24:31 AM by greekischristian »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #273 on: August 27, 2008, 02:15:02 AM »
I think that science and technology is morally netural...it can all be used for the benefit or harm of humanity. However, even that development of greatest destructive potential, nuclear physics, has yet to prove to be end of the world that many predicted it to be.

Since Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Man has not utilized nuclear weapons for whatever reasons - maybe fear of total annihilation.  If some men and women find a way to settle other planets like Mars, then perhaps destroying Earth may seem like a tangible idea; after all, they won't be around to deal with the aftermath.

That's one theoretical explanation, but not a very helpful one since on account of the presuppositions it can neither be proven nor disproven.

Those presuppositions - man, they get on my nerves because they simply derail logic and reason - although that's for a different thread.

However, there seems to be substantial evidence that there is some genetic influence on intelligence, not only in the difference between our intelligence and the intelligence between are close cousins, the other great apes...but also amongst humans intelligence seems to be hereditary. There's no doubt that proper encouragement and education play a HUGE role, it pains me to think how much more advanced we would be today if everyone were given the opportunity to live up to their full potential over the last 2000 years (though, perhaps the development of the atom bomb in the dark ages would have been the end of the human race, it may very well have been for the better we that had the opportunity to mature a bit before receiving such awsome power).

Dante wouldn't have much to write about if the Medieval elite nuked each other into oblivion.  I do agree with you that every individual deserves their full potential to be recognized - both good and bad - and that the good ought to be encouraged.  For example, I find drunk driving to be a bad idea except that society encourages such behavior by peer pressure (before Myspace and Facebook allowed millions of strangers to see teenagers bragging about how much they drink).

However, it still seems that some simply have a genetic limitation they cannot overcome. In my advanced mathematics classes there were always some people who worked much, much harder than the rest of us, studying for hours and days concepts they could never grasp, yet others of us would hear it mentioned one time in class, it was obvious to us, we never revisited the concept again, but had no problem with it on the test. Some attended every class, studied 10 hours a week, and still ended up with D's, while others of us prefered to sleep in, made maybe half the classes, never got below a B, and generally got A's.

Seems like you were in the latter group of students - the classic Bell Curve.  I did thumb through the book when I was an undergrad except I couldn't completely believe the author's premise.

There was obviously something more than effort and even childhood influences (while I'm told that my biological father was something as a mathematical prodigy, neither my mother nor my step father could ever manage to pass algebra).

My parents and countless generations before them did not have much of a formal education.  I was exception while my sister decided to have children at an early age except that she would be much smarter than I am if she had gone a different path.

I have little doubt that some of the alleles for intelligence in humans can be found in other primates, though obviously other alleles are lacking. While Koko may be able to speak to us and even carry on a conversation, I doubt he's going to expand the field of topology any time in the near future...but then again, neither are most humans, and some that I know really can't even carry on a conversation...so maybe Koko acutally is a lot closer to us than we'd like to admit. ;)

We agree on that.   :)

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #274 on: August 27, 2008, 08:20:33 AM »
They can alter their environment to a small degree, but not to the same degree as humans have, by any means.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #275 on: August 27, 2008, 09:57:50 AM »
If you're going to introduce a deity into the equation, at least first demonstrate that such added complexity is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, this conversation will be far more reasonable if we adhere to Occam's Razor and not introduce unnecessary complexity.

You have certainly demonstrated what a perfect world would look like in the absence of a deity. The problem is you haven't taken everything into account. All people on this earth have a limited amount of time. The limitation is the driving force for personal greatness along with the desire to defeat nature or continue there existence and greatness. If everybody thought the same way as you from a humble mortal standpoint, than it may all be possible, but at some point in time you will have to vary into your equations the unforeseeable factor of reluctant individuals who would much rather use technology to suit there own agenda. In your future there will be other problem such as. Overpopulation, Limited space alone can wipe out population through war, rich or influential individuals who would much rather horde the superiority rather than share it. Superiority of certain individuals will most certainly result in genocide and to think that your future can only happen in a communist or fascist form of government. Artificial superiority is actually racism par excellence. The misuse has unlimited possibilities. Does the name Hitler ring a bell. ;)

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #276 on: August 27, 2008, 11:07:48 AM »
Since Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Man has not utilized nuclear weapons for whatever reasons - maybe fear of total annihilation.  If some men and women find a way to settle other planets like Mars, then perhaps destroying Earth may seem like a tangible idea; after all, they won't be around to deal with the aftermath.

Well, they have utilized them in a very particular way... Nuclear Energy, used to generate power on a large-scale  (US power-grid), and small-scale (submarines and aircraft carriers).  I think nuclear energy and weapons proves the point about moral neutrality.
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Offline Myrrh23

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #277 on: August 27, 2008, 12:06:31 PM »
HIV has killed 2.1 million people and 33.2 million people are infected.

Although it's not a virus, I wonder how many people Tuberculosis has killed throughout history. As they say, "the bigger they are, the harder they fall". You know, watching The History Channel's "Life After People" has shown me that we may be very smart as a species, but it feels like we're just another chapter in the world's book. The only ones able to admire what we can do and accomplish are....ourselves. S'humbling....
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Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #278 on: August 27, 2008, 12:28:39 PM »
You have certainly demonstrated what a perfect world would look like in the absence of a deity. The problem is you haven't taken everything into account. All people on this earth have a limited amount of time. The limitation is the driving force for personal greatness along with the desire to defeat nature or continue there existence and greatness. If everybody thought the same way as you from a humble mortal standpoint, than it may all be possible, but at some point in time you will have to vary into your equations the unforeseeable factor of reluctant individuals who would much rather use technology to suit there own agenda. In your future there will be other problem such as. Overpopulation, Limited space alone can wipe out population through war, rich or influential individuals who would much rather horde the superiority rather than share it. Superiority of certain individuals will most certainly result in genocide and to think that your future can only happen in a communist or fascist form of government. Artificial superiority is actually racism par excellence. The misuse has unlimited possibilities. Does the name Hitler ring a bell. ;)

You offer good arguments for the necessity of free and open science with journal articles being publically available. But you do not present a good argument against science and technology itself. Why should we assume that those who become superior through genetic engineering will oppress and enslave those who may choose not to? After all, does not our society happily allow the amish to continue their way of life in isolation, ignoring the advances of the world around them? So also could we allow the genetically inferior to live out their lives in peace, without fear of oppression and tyranny. The simple fact that something has the potential for abuse (which can be said to be the case with nearly all technological advanement) hardly implies that such abuse is inevitable or even likely.

Offline stanley123

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #279 on: August 27, 2008, 03:16:03 PM »
Heck, the rest of us must just be REALLY, REALLY lazy.

Some are distracted by politics or computer games.

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #280 on: August 27, 2008, 04:44:45 PM »
But you do not present a good argument against science and technology itself.

I actually value science and technology. I just see how easily it can be misused.

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Why should we assume that those who become superior through genetic engineering will oppress and enslave those who may choose not to? After all, does not our society happily allow the amish to continue their way of life in isolation, ignoring the advances of the world around them? So also could we allow the genetically inferior to live out their lives in peace, without fear of oppression and tyranny. The simple fact that something has the potential for abuse (which can be said to be the case with nearly all technological advanement) hardly implies that such abuse is inevitable or even likely.


You bring up all good points, but superiority takes it's hold silently. The best example I can offer up is the sport of baseball. A harmless game that was built into a steroid fest. The sport itself is now considered to be sports entertainment similar to the WWF. Rather than a true sportsman like challenge it disintegrated into a doping tournament. In a imperfect world advances will only benefit the limited that have the funds. I don't particularly see my HMO offering me genetic restructuring of my frontal cortex. Unless I'm willing to pay for it. :D

Offline SolEX01

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #281 on: August 27, 2008, 05:33:43 PM »
I actually value science and technology. I just see how easily it can be misused.

You bring up all good points, but superiority takes it's hold silently. The best example I can offer up is the sport of baseball. A harmless game that was built into a steroid fest. The sport itself is now considered to be sports entertainment similar to the WWF.

Vince McMahon, Owner of World Wrestling Entertainment, WWE, (not WWF because the former changed its name to not be confused with Wildlife preservation), came up with the XFL as a "sports entertainment" competitor to the NFL in 2001.  Week 1 ratings were through the roof until they actually played football rather than use "kayfabe" (e.g. phony) antics.  Ratings dropped each week to lows never before seen in TV history.

Baseball had to adapt to a strike which canceled the world series.  Cal Ripken breaking Lou Gehrig's streak was nice but not enough; hence, twigs like Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds becoming lumbering homerun behemoths.

Floyd Landis was caught doping after winning the Tour de France.  Many riders were still caught doping in 2008.

Rather than a true sportsman like challenge it disintegrated into a doping tournament. In a imperfect world advances will only benefit the limited that have the funds. I don't particularly see my HMO offering me genetic restructuring of my frontal cortex. Unless I'm willing to pay for it. :D

HMO's aren't going to pay money for unproven genetic engineering results.

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #282 on: August 27, 2008, 05:39:17 PM »
You bring up all good points, but superiority takes it's hold silently. The best example I can offer up is the sport of baseball. A harmless game that was built into a steroid fest. The sport itself is now considered to be sports entertainment similar to the WWF. Rather than a true sportsman like challenge it disintegrated into a doping tournament. 

I don't know if I agree with this characterization, but that's for another thread...
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Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #283 on: August 27, 2008, 06:32:32 PM »
You bring up all good points, but superiority takes it's hold silently. The best example I can offer up is the sport of baseball. A harmless game that was built into a steroid fest. The sport itself is now considered to be sports entertainment similar to the WWF. Rather than a true sportsman like challenge it disintegrated into a doping tournament.

Baseball was saved after the strike by steroids...without steroids the homerun race would never have been possible, the homerun race that brought popularity back to the game. Everyone loves the long ball...and steroids are good for the game. And steroids are not expensive or hard to get, they do not give people unfair advantages on account of wealth, the difference is how they are used in conjunction with diet and exercise. Those more knowledgable in biology, medicine, nutrition, and exercise sciences gain the advantage...along with the self-discipline to properly train and eat...not those with the most resources, gain the most. In fact, I would argue that PED's are an egalitarian influence on sport in general. They negate certain genetic advantages, making training more important. Of course, they do not overcome all genetic advantage and one can be advantaged or disadvantaged by other genetic traits (e.g. number of available ribosomes available to be activated by the external hormones)...but in the end, it makes things more egalitarian by eliminating the significance of certain variables (HCT is probably the best example, the natural genetic advantage someone with an HCT of 49 may have is negated if everyone is going to get their HCT up to 55...thus making diet, training, and dedication more important to success in the sport).

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In a imperfect world advances will only benefit the limited that have the funds. I don't particularly see my HMO offering me genetic restructuring of my frontal cortex. Unless I'm willing to pay for it. :D

Most genetic engineering is done/has been done with pharmaceuticals, while some start out a bit on the expensive side very few are beyond the means of the typical middle-class person. And after a few years generic versions always come out for pennies on the dollar. HGH is a perfect example, just 10 years ago you were looking at $1,500 a month (with a minimum cycle of about 6 months needed to observe notable results), today the cost is around $300 a month (for high doses, lower doses could be around $100 a month). And this is with production being illegal and underground, just imagine how much cheaper it would be if one could legally produce it.

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #284 on: August 27, 2008, 06:39:01 PM »
Vince McMahon, Owner of World Wrestling Entertainment, WWE, (not WWF because the former changed its name to not be confused with Wildlife preservation), came up with the XFL as a "sports entertainment" competitor to the NFL in 2001.  Week 1 ratings were through the roof until they actually played football rather than use "kayfabe" (e.g. phony) antics.  Ratings dropped each week to lows never before seen in TV history.

Baseball had to adapt to a strike which canceled the world series.  Cal Ripken breaking Lou Gehrig's streak was nice but not enough; hence, twigs like Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds becoming lumbering homerun behemoths.

Quote
Floyd Landis was caught doping after winning the Tour de France.  Many riders were still caught doping in 2008.

I doubt there's a single person on the tour not using homogenous blood doping (or now the new dynepo) and HGH. A select few have designer steroids they were obviously using as well...*cough* Lance *cough*...these are expensive and have given them an advantage that only money can buy. But they're no more effective than more traditional steroids, the only real advantage they have is their inability to be detected. You remove the rules against P.E.D.'s and you remove the unfair advantage that only large amounts of money can buy.

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HMO's aren't going to pay money for unproven genetic engineering results.

But even if HMO's won't pay, the stuff isn't that expensive. It's not like they go in and surgically change something, you take a pill that alters genetic expression (or perhaps one day inject a virus that alters the genome itself...the next step in genetic engineering). In either case, it's just pharmaceuticals...costs are measured in hundreds or, at most, thousands, not hundreds of thousands.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 06:39:19 PM by greekischristian »

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #285 on: August 27, 2008, 08:05:47 PM »
World Wrestling Entertainment, WWE, (not WWF because the former changed its name to not be confused with Wildlife preservation)
They had some help from World Wildlife Fund's lawyers after the World Wrestling Federation became the more well-known organization with those initials.
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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #286 on: August 28, 2008, 10:07:11 AM »
I doubt there's a single person on the tour not using homogenous blood doping (or now the new dynepo) and HGH. A select few have designer steroids they were obviously using as well...*cough* Lance *cough*...these are expensive and have given them an advantage that only money can buy. But they're no more effective than more traditional steroids, the only real advantage they have is their inability to be detected. You remove the rules against P.E.D.'s and you remove the unfair advantage that only large amounts of money can buy.

How do you propose that we get rid of the rule book? I can't even drive 5 block in my car without getting pulled over for not waring my seat belt. Freedom is an illusion and certainly doesn't exist today. ;)

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #287 on: August 28, 2008, 10:12:19 AM »
Vince McMahon, Owner of World Wrestling Entertainment, WWE, (not WWF because the former changed its name to not be confused with Wildlife preservation), came up with the XFL as a "sports entertainment" competitor to the NFL in 2001.  Week 1 ratings were through the roof until they actually played football rather than use "kayfabe" (e.g. phony) antics.  Ratings dropped each week to lows never before seen in TV history.


I would venture to say that entertainment replaced federation too distinguish between the real sport of wrestling and the drama inducing fake.  :o

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #288 on: August 28, 2008, 10:13:12 AM »
How do you propose that we get rid of the rule book? I can't even drive 5 block in my car without getting pulled over for not waring my seat belt. Freedom is an illusion and certainly doesn't exist today. ;)

The sporting organizations simply need to acknowledge that the rules are anti-egalitarian, impossible to enforce, and simply absurd. Once they do that, government support for the rules will quickly fade.

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #289 on: August 28, 2008, 10:27:15 AM »
The sporting organizations simply need to acknowledge that the rules are anti-egalitarian, impossible to enforce, and simply absurd. Once they do that, government support for the rules will quickly fade.
And so will the confidence of the viewer fade. Because of a manipulated outcome. Came anybody say sports entertainment? ;)

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #290 on: August 28, 2008, 10:38:24 AM »
The sporting organizations simply need to acknowledge that the rules are anti-egalitarian, impossible to enforce, and simply absurd. Once they do that, government support for the rules will quickly fade.

Than the pharmaceutical companies will win. It will turn into a competition over who has the best drug. Instead of who is the best athlete. Genetic engineering is no different. someone will wind up superior in the end because they have more money. ;)

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #291 on: August 28, 2008, 10:54:14 AM »
Than the pharmaceutical companies will win. It will turn into a competition over who has the best drug. Instead of who is the best athlete. Genetic engineering is no different. someone will wind up superior in the end because they have more money. ;)

Money does make the world go around...we'll never get away from that. However, at least my system would award true ingenuity and open research...and government-funded research done by universities is going to be more egalitarian than the clandestine research supported by private funds that now dominates sport.

Plus, pharmaceutical companies are in it for the money, they're not going to put millions into researching a drug or genetically engineered virus just to give to one person to win a sporting event...they want to sell it to as many people as possible and make as much money as possible. There is this inherently egalitarian factor in free markest.

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #292 on: August 28, 2008, 10:59:37 AM »


Plus, pharmaceutical companies are in it for the money, they're not going to put millions into researching a drug or genetically engineered virus just to give to one person to win a sporting event...they want to sell it to as many people as possible and make as much money as possible. There is this inherently egalitarian factor in free markest.

You may be right when it comes to drug like Viagra. But power overcomes the money factor. A President certainly isn't a President because of the salary that the job pays.

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #293 on: August 28, 2008, 11:34:16 AM »
You may be right when it comes to drug like Viagra. But power overcomes the money factor. A President certainly isn't a President because of the salary that the job pays.

Power doesn't overcome money...money IS power. The purpose of aquiring money beyond the point of having more than you could ever spend, because the more resources you control the more power you have. Money is how one becomes president, money is how one controls congress, money is how one controls global economies and entire societies.

When the essence of power is control of economic resources it's illogical to suggest that one is going to forego economic gain in the pursuit of power.

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #294 on: August 28, 2008, 11:46:14 AM »
Power doesn't overcome money...money IS power. The purpose of aquiring money beyond the point of having more than you could ever spend, because the more resources you control the more power you have. Money is how one becomes president, money is how one controls congress, money is how one controls global economies and entire societies.

When the essence of power is control of economic resources it's illogical to suggest that one is going to forego economic gain in the pursuit of power.

I would say that it's the other way around. Being placed is a position of power is what warrants the wealth. The person that acquires a higher position is usually rewarded with more money. If a clerk becomes a VP his salary will most certainly increase with his position. The clerk will never make the same salary in his current position than a VP. Other wise the clerk would have superiority in his current position. We know that that just isn't so.

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #295 on: August 28, 2008, 12:30:52 PM »
I would say that it's the other way around. Being placed is a position of power is what warrants the wealth. The person that acquires a higher position is usually rewarded with more money. If a clerk becomes a VP his salary will most certainly increase with his position. The clerk will never make the same salary in his current position than a VP. Other wise the clerk would have superiority in his current position. We know that that just isn't so.

Bad analogy...neither the clerk making minimum wage nor the VP making $1 mil a year have enough money to really be notable. Both are still using money as a means to acquire material goods, granted the VP can aquire more and better material goods, but he is still middle class, his income is not high enough to allow him to use it as leverage for power.

Now compare that to the person worth a billion dollars...he can leverage markets, undermine new business ventures, force hostile takeovers of (smaller) publically traded companies, he can use his wealth to buy off state legislatures, congress, and foreign parliaments...or threaten/entice them with outsourcing/relocating...and, accordingly, get favourable legislation passed.

Much of this is done by corporations and not by individuals, per se, but a corporation is simply a way for people to control economc resources by proxy, getting all the benefits with few of the risks.

Control of economic resources is the source of power, but before you can have any of that power you have to pass the threshold where you are simply aquiring resources for personal survival and luxury.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #296 on: August 28, 2008, 12:37:01 PM »
And so will the confidence of the viewer fade. Because of a manipulated outcome. Came anybody say sports entertainment? ;)

That could explain how the Boston Red Sox came back from a 0-3 deficit against the NY Yankees to win the AL Pennant and swept the St. Louis Cardinals in 4 games to win the World Series.  Ending a 86 year old drought could be a form of manipulated outcome.  The theory will be bolstered if either the Cubs win (ending 100 year drought) or if the Rays win (another 1st time World Series winner from Florida).

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #297 on: August 28, 2008, 12:47:23 PM »
That could explain how the Boston Red Sox came back from a 0-3 deficit against the NY Yankees to win the AL Pennant and swept the St. Louis Cardinals in 4 games to win the World Series.  Ending a 86 year old drought could be a form of manipulated outcome.  The theory will be bolstered if either the Cubs win (ending 100 year drought) or if the Rays win (another 1st time World Series winner from Florida).

It doesn't seem likely because those teams don't have the same financial backing to buy the latest and greatest steroids. The reason New York lost is because they stopped using. The officials were keeping a close eye on them by that time. Once the press dies down you can rest assured that NY will once again be on top. ;)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #298 on: August 28, 2008, 12:58:45 PM »
They had some help from World Wildlife Fund's lawyers after the World Wrestling Federation became the more well-known organization with those initials.

That detail came to mind after I posted; I was keeping things concise.   ;)  I also believe that the McMahon's made a million dollar donation to the WWF as part of the settlement.  In a sense, today's WWE is still a federation in that they bought up most of the wrestling universe, former competitors, et al.

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #299 on: August 28, 2008, 01:07:26 PM »
Bad analogy...neither the clerk making minimum wage nor the VP making $1 mil a year have enough money to really be notable. Both are still using money as a means to acquire material goods, granted the VP can aquire more and better material goods, but he is still middle class, his income is not high enough to allow him to use it as leverage for power.

Now compare that to the person worth a billion dollars...he can leverage markets, undermine new business ventures, force hostile takeovers of (smaller) publically traded companies, he can use his wealth to buy off state legislatures, congress, and foreign parliaments...or threaten/entice them with outsourcing/relocating...and, accordingly, get favourable legislation passed.

Much of this is done by corporations and not by individuals, per se, but a corporation is simply a way for people to control economc resources by proxy, getting all the benefits with few of the risks.

Control of economic resources is the source of power, but before you can have any of that power you have to pass the threshold where you are simply aquiring resources for personal survival and luxury.
Your position is counterintuitive. People are usually put into power by others who are already in power. The person already in power. In this case the president of a corporate firm is usually the one making that decision. Because of his influential position he also controls how one becomes the president of the country. The corporation along with other corporations drive their selected nominee into his position so they are rewarded on the back end when he becomes President. Without these friendly power gatherings. Capitalism could never exist.
You have in the past stated that this country is a republic. Your statement holds true. True democracy hasn't existed since the time of Plato. Yet true democracy is the pinnacle of freedom in that it makes everybody an equal. With an equal voice.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 01:14:14 PM by Demetrios G. »

Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #300 on: August 28, 2008, 01:15:17 PM »
..so pronounced great Mathematical Moralist  ::)

DON'T FEED the TROLL


wow... over 7 pages / 2 months later............too bad we didn't listen at the beginning
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 01:17:52 PM by _Seraphim_ »
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #301 on: August 28, 2008, 01:18:59 PM »
wow... over 7 pages / 2 months later............too bad we didn't listen at the beginning

More like 6 2/3 pages.   ;)

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #302 on: August 28, 2008, 01:30:49 PM »

wow... over 7 pages / 2 months later............too bad we didn't listen at the beginning

Actually, I'm glad you didn't listen.
The whole purpose of this thread is to try to contain GiC, and he has respectfully complied for the most part.
This thread is a place where GiC can answer questions posed specifically to him regarding his opinions on various issues (which often happens).
If this thread didn't exist, then GiC would be answering questions put to him in every thread in which he posted which would derail them.
The number of pages is immaterial, this thread is doing it's job.
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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #303 on: August 28, 2008, 01:36:09 PM »
The whole purpose of this thread is to try to contain GiC, and he has respectfully complied for the most part.

So it's kinda like a verbal Ghostbusters ghost trap for GIC...interesting.  ;)

« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 01:36:55 PM by Myrrh23 »
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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #304 on: August 28, 2008, 01:37:31 PM »
I prefer to think of it as a "contained soap box".
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Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #305 on: August 28, 2008, 02:14:17 PM »
It doesn't seem likely because those teams don't have the same financial backing to buy the latest and greatest steroids. The reason New York lost is because they stopped using. The officials were keeping a close eye on them by that time. Once the press dies down you can rest assured that NY will once again be on top. ;)

You don't know much about steroids and PED's in general, do you? They're just not that expensive...there's not a team in baseball that can't afford the best of everything for everyone on their team, including the bat boy's. They really are that cheap...heck, college students can afford them, they're that cheap. Of course, more isn't always better, with the possible exception of bodybuilding, especially in endurance sports too high of doses will do more harm than good. And as far as performance in the game, stoping steroids won't do you any good...for game play in baseball something like provigil will probably do more than steroids, hGH, and EPO combined.

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #306 on: August 28, 2008, 03:54:44 PM »
You don't know much about steroids and PED's in general, do you? They're just not that expensive...there's not a team in baseball that can't afford the best of everything for everyone on their team, including the bat boy's. They really are that cheap...heck, college students can afford them, they're that cheap. Of course, more isn't always better, with the possible exception of bodybuilding, especially in endurance sports too high of doses will do more harm than good. And as far as performance in the game, stoping steroids won't do you any good...for game play in baseball something like provigil will probably do more than steroids, hGH, and EPO combined.

A designer enhancer is one that, while still effective, cannot be detected by one of the specific tests that labs use. Unless a committee or agency can determine the structure of a certain designer enhancer or have that structure disclosed in a testimony, it is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. And if one designer enhancer can be identified, it is immediately obsolete and replaced by another. As an analogy, picture bacteria or a virus that constantly mutates, making medicines ineffective.

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #307 on: August 28, 2008, 04:09:11 PM »
A designer enhancer is one that, while still effective, cannot be detected by one of the specific tests that labs use. Unless a committee or agency can determine the structure of a certain designer enhancer or have that structure disclosed in a testimony, it is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. And if one designer enhancer can be identified, it is immediately obsolete and replaced by another. As an analogy, picture bacteria or a virus that constantly mutates, making medicines ineffective.

That's not even how these things are generally tested for, as testing for specific drugs is generally cost prohibitive. Generally health based measurments are made, such as t to epi-t ratio, or HCT level, or HCT/HGB ratio etc. If a health based test gives either an abnormal ratio or levels that may confir and advantage they will then try to test for known substances or non-native molecules. Of course, some things like unestered test suspension is extremly difficult and expensive to test and there are rumors that genetically engineered test not derived from soy, which has the same carbon signature as human test...it would be impossible to detect and only a messed up t/epi-t ratio or impossibly high levels would tip someone off to it's presence (and you can of course increase epi-t, it gives no advantage but can thwart the tests). Of course, this test would be very expensive, with the only real advantage over traditional test is it's difficulty to detect. And you could inject a very large amount in the morning, be tested in teh evening and pass the test...due to it's half-life, it's generally injected up to 3x a day.

hGH and dynepo are in the same boat, artificial substances and natural substances are identical, you can't actually test for doping, you can only test for abnormal levels and you can't actually prove anything from that, no matter how absurd. They all just claim to be genetically blessed, unlikely but impossible to disprove.

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #308 on: August 28, 2008, 04:12:29 PM »
Your position is counterintuitive. People are usually put into power by others who are already in power. The person already in power. In this case the president of a corporate firm is usually the one making that decision. Because of his influential position he also controls how one becomes the president of the country. The corporation along with other corporations drive their selected nominee into his position so they are rewarded on the back end when he becomes President. Without these friendly power gatherings. Capitalism could never exist.
You have in the past stated that this country is a republic. Your statement holds true. True democracy hasn't existed since the time of Plato. Yet true democracy is the pinnacle of freedom in that it makes everybody an equal. With an equal voice.

Corporations rise and fall, social networking is one way to power, but so is coming up with a new and superior product, or marketing your product better than your competitors.. Bill Gates and Larry Page didn't get to where they are by the good graces of others but because of product development and marketing.

As for democracy, it's not an improvement, for freedom to exist the rights of the minority must be protected against the will of the majority...a pure democracy by no means ensures this.

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #309 on: August 28, 2008, 04:23:08 PM »
That's not even how these things are generally tested for, as testing for specific drugs is generally cost prohibitive. Generally health based measurments are made, such as t to epi-t ratio, or HCT level, or HCT/HGB ratio etc. If a health based test gives either an abnormal ratio or levels that may confir and advantage they will then try to test for known substances or non-native molecules. Of course, some things like unestered test suspension is extremly difficult and expensive to test and there are rumors that genetically engineered test not derived from soy, which has the same carbon signature as human test...it would be impossible to detect and only a messed up t/epi-t ratio or impossibly high levels would tip someone off to it's presence (and you can of course increase epi-t, it gives no advantage but can thwart the tests). Of course, this test would be very expensive, with the only real advantage over traditional test is it's difficulty to detect. And you could inject a very large amount in the morning, be tested in teh evening and pass the test...due to it's half-life, it's generally injected up to 3x a day.

hGH and dynepo are in the same boat, artificial substances and natural substances are identical, you can't actually test for doping, you can only test for abnormal levels and you can't actually prove anything from that, no matter how absurd. They all just claim to be genetically blessed, unlikely but impossible to disprove.

THG, or tetrahydrogestrinone were one of the first designer steroids discovered in 2003. Since than scientist believe that there are hundreds just like THG. It's close to impossible of agents that aren't known to be detectable. With the case of THG, a sports coach came foward with a sample. Without that sample, no one would have suspected anything.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #310 on: August 28, 2008, 04:35:41 PM »
Corporations rise and fall, social networking is one way to power, but so is coming up with a new and superior product, or marketing your product better than your competitors.. Bill Gates and Larry Page didn't get to where they are by the good graces of others but because of product development and marketing.

I agree. We were on the subject of money and power. While Bill Gates does have the former. There are many with less money and greater power. One could also argue that with one comes the other. To make the subject more confusing. ;)

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #311 on: August 28, 2008, 05:22:56 PM »
THG, or tetrahydrogestrinone were one of the first designer steroids discovered in 2003. Since than scientist believe that there are hundreds just like THG. It's close to impossible of agents that aren't known to be detectable. With the case of THG, a sports coach came foward with a sample. Without that sample, no one would have suspected anything.

THG kinda proves my point about desinger steroids making sport less egalitarian.

THG is, in essence, nothing other than an Tren with the 17-alpha-hydroxal bond alkylated to allow it to survive the first pass through the liver (and thus able to be taken orally), though also making it liver toxic in the process. Other than some minor weight loss resulting from bonding with the glucocorticoid receptor (which is hardly an issue for elite athletes), THG is nothing but a liver-toxic version of Tren (and Tren has enough side effects without adding liver-toxicity) with potential for infertility as a side effect, actually it's slightly less effective due to the decreased bioavailability of oral agents compared to injectable ones.

Yet, despite being less effective and more dangerous than Tren it was prohibitively expensive simply because of the clandestine effort behind it. Only a select few with the proper resources could afford (or have access to, for that matter) this drug that could evade testing, whereas if there was no testing anyone could order Tren from any vet medication supplier online for a mere $15/gram (20-40 day supply depending on dosage). The system that awards money is not one where genetic engineering and doping is legalized, but rather the current system.

EDIT:
Just as a clarification and to keep my facts straight Tren also bonds to the glucocorticoid receptor and can result in weight loss...though not with the same affinity as has been reported in THG...this stronger affinity MAY be what causes a greater shutdown of the system than Tren potentially leading to infertility with prolonged use in a small number of individuals.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 01:37:16 AM by greekischristian »

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #312 on: August 28, 2008, 05:25:08 PM »
Oh, did I mention that infertility is also a side effect of THG, a problem never observed with Tren? It's bad stuff, with better safer versions available, the ONLY reason to take it is to avoid detection.

Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #313 on: August 28, 2008, 07:57:25 PM »
More like 6 2/3 pages.   ;)

Ah, yes, how silly of me   :)
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #314 on: August 28, 2008, 08:01:55 PM »
Actually, I'm glad you didn't listen.
The whole purpose of this thread is to try to contain GiC, and he has respectfully complied for the most part.
This thread is a place where GiC can answer questions posed specifically to him regarding his opinions on various issues (which often happens).
If this thread didn't exist, then GiC would be answering questions put to him in every thread in which he posted which would derail them.
The number of pages is immaterial, this thread is doing it's job.


Well, I purposefully hadn't read a single post on this thread until today... so this is brand new information for me.   
Now that I understand the point of the thread, I must backtrack and say:
"Wow!  What a wonderful thread!  Now I can actually breath in the rest of the forum!"  ;D
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