Author Topic: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics  (Read 49566 times)

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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #180 on: July 20, 2008, 09:16:46 PM »
Actually, Dr. Robert Hare has made huge contributions to the successful treatment of ASPD. He is a Professor of Psychology at UBC and has worked in the field of ASPD for over 30 years.

And from what I understand, Hare doesn't believe there is really a treatment or cure for a sociopath, although I think he says its more accurate to call the person I am talking about a psychopath.  He has done some work that I've read in treating violent psychopaths where he tries to teach them that they can get what they want without violence, but I believe even in these cases the person just showed signs of becoming a non-violent sociopath.  And the majority of psychopaths aren't violent, so it doesn't help them.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #181 on: July 20, 2008, 09:19:01 PM »
Yes it is.  For all of us.  I'd really be interested in seeing that study.  I'm not talking from the hip, I got into prisons thanks to who a friend who is an expert in this field and in his opinion there is no effective treatment for a sociopath. And for that matter, I haven't met any of his pears who would think so.  Doesn't mean somebody hasn't figured it out though.

This really surprises me that your friend doesn't know about this. Successful treatment for ASPD is over 10 years old.
Just briefly looking through my files, I found this study which is excellent and discusses treatment based partly on on Hare's work:
"The Use of the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R) and Rorschach in Treatment Planning with Antisocial Personality Disordered Patients". International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology, Vol. 42, No. 1, 49-64 (1998).
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #182 on: July 20, 2008, 09:22:29 PM »
This really surprises me that your friend doesn't know about this. Successful treatment for ASPD is over 10 years old.
Just briefly looking through my files, I found this study which is excellent and discusses treatment based partly on on Hare's work:
"The Use of the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R) and Rorschach in Treatment Planning with Antisocial Personality Disordered Patients". International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology, Vol. 42, No. 1, 49-64 (1998).

Is this a treatment that has actually cured a psychopath?  My friend knows Robert Hare and has studied under him, so I would be surprised also if he had missed a course of treatment that has cured a psychopath.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 09:22:44 PM by livefreeordie »

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #183 on: July 20, 2008, 09:29:46 PM »
This really surprises me that your friend doesn't know about this. Successful treatment for ASPD is over 10 years old.
Just briefly looking through my files, I found this study which is excellent and discusses treatment based partly on on Hare's work:
"The Use of the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R) and Rorschach in Treatment Planning with Antisocial Personality Disordered Patients". International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology, Vol. 42, No. 1, 49-64 (1998).

Looking at a review of this it seems it talks about the scale Hare created and in the introduction I found it even says that when a score is high enough there is no treatment.  Which is what I would expect.  When I'm talking about "monsters" I talking about the worst, true sociopaths and as far as anybody knows, those guys are lost puppies with no cure.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #184 on: July 20, 2008, 09:35:29 PM »
Is this a treatment that has actually cured a psychopath?  My friend knows Robert Hare and has studied under him, so I would be surprised also if he had missed a course of treatment that has cured a psychopath.

We don't speak of "curing" ASPD any more than we speak of "curing" asthma or Type I Diabetes Mellitus.
In diabetes, the ability to produce insulin in response to increased blood glucose is impaired, so we have to artificially inject insulin and/or take oral antihyperglycaemic medication, as well as monitor our diet.
The same goes with illnesses like schizophrenia and ASDP- we don't "cure" them, we manage them with different combinations of therapies.
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #185 on: July 20, 2008, 09:47:27 PM »
We don't speak of "curing" ASPD any more than we speak of "curing" asthma or Type I Diabetes Mellitus.
In diabetes, the ability to produce insulin in response to increased blood glucose is impaired, so we have to artificially inject insulin and/or take oral antihyperglycaemic medication, as well as monitor our diet.
The same goes with illnesses like schizophrenia and ASDP- we don't "cure" them, we manage them with different combinations of therapies.

Exactly, but aren't psychopaths who have been treated or managed still an extreme danger to people?  When I read from many different sources that there is no "effective" treatment for a pyschopath, I always took "effective" to mean that regardless of how they were managed or treated, they were always going to be a danger to people.  You can manage asthma and it not kill you.  But even if you manage a psychopath, won't he still manipulate and harm people.  Isn't that true?

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #186 on: July 20, 2008, 09:52:29 PM »
Looking at a review of this it seems it talks about the scale Hare created and in the introduction I found it even says that when a score is high enough there is no treatment.  Which is what I would expect.  When I'm talking about "monsters" I talking about the worst, true sociopaths and as far as anybody knows, those guys are lost puppies with no cure.

Did you try removing the prefrontal cortex?

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #187 on: July 20, 2008, 09:54:56 PM »
Did you try removing the prefrontal cortex?

That's a quick way to behavior modification!

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #188 on: July 20, 2008, 09:58:48 PM »
But even if you manage a psychopath, won't he still manipulate and harm people.  Isn't that true?
Not necessarily. Successful treatment is based on compliance with therapy and measured in behavioral outcomes.
What you're saying is like saying that treating diabetes with insulin, medication and diet and complying with treatment still means the person will go into diabetic shock. Not necessarily.
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #189 on: July 20, 2008, 10:05:39 PM »
Not necessarily. Successful treatment is based on compliance with therapy and measured in behavioral outcomes.
What you're saying is like saying that treating diabetes with insulin, medication and diet and complying with treatment still means the person will go into diabetic shock. Not necessarily.

Well I'll keep looking, this really interests me.  But going back to the post you questioned, I didn't say there was no treatment for psychopaths, I said there was no "effective" treatment.  I guess we can split hairs on what we call "effective".  Although if you actually treat psychopaths I guess you have to be optimistic! But after reviewing Hare's book the last hour and searching whatever I could find on the net, I haven't found anything to make me think otherwise.  I will get a hold of my friend tomorrow and run all this by him.  Thanks for sharing your insight on this.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 10:06:15 PM by livefreeordie »

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #190 on: July 20, 2008, 10:12:59 PM »
If we all look at ourselves honestly, we are all "monsters" when examined in the perfect light of Christ. But the problem with actually calling other people "monsters", as I see it, is that we slander their humanity and put ourselves in the path of spiritual temptation. I see the following dangers; we consider them less human than we are ourselves, when in fact we are failing to see that none of us are perfectly human. Also we consider their sins something we could never be guilty of. Failing to to see the potentiality of our own "monsterness", we could fall into the sin of pride, and probably most important, we fail to see Christ in them. We are all created in God's image and yet we are all fallen creatures to some degree or other. Just because someone might have fallen all the way to the floor does it make them any less human than anyone else who, by the grace of God, has only fallen half-way?  

Forgive me if the foregoing is a little muddled. I have been having some terrible sinustis headaches lately. Please pray for this sinner.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #191 on: July 20, 2008, 10:16:28 PM »
I didn't say there was no treatment for psychopaths, I said there was no "effective" treatment.
Any treatment's effectiveness depends not only on the treatment, but how we as a society respond to the patient. If a diabetic goes into hypoglaecemic shock, hopefully someone around them will now have enough knowledge about the condition to know to give them glucose. As our knowledge of ASPD increases, and treatments get better, rather than call them "monsters", we as a society will be able to accept someone saying "I do not have the ability to empathize" as much as we now accept someone saying "I do not have the ability to produce insulin" .
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #192 on: July 20, 2008, 10:17:39 PM »
FYI, since I'm no psychotherapist I wanted to go back over my notes and the Hare book to clarify my terms.  When I've been saying sociopath, it would have been more accurate to say psychopath.  I.e. psycopath's are monsters!  ;)

Dr. Hare has made a distinction between psychopaths and those with Antisocial Personality Disorders in his work.  He says that it is basically impossible to treat psychopaths starting with the fact that by the nature of being a psychopath you have no desire to be treated.

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #193 on: July 20, 2008, 10:27:04 PM »
If we all look at ourselves honestly, we are all "monsters" when examined in the perfect light of Christ. But the problem with actually calling other people "monsters", as I see it, is that we slander their humanity and put ourselves in the path of spiritual temptation. I see the following dangers; we consider them less human than we are ourselves, when in fact we are failing to see that none of us are perfectly human. Also we consider their sins something we could never be guilty of. Failing to to see the potentiality of our own "monsterness", we could fall into the sin of pride, and probably most important, we fail to see Christ in them. We are all created in God's image and yet we are all fallen creatures to some degree or other. Just because someone might have fallen all the way to the floor does it make them any less human than anyone else who, by the grace of God, has only fallen half-way?  

Forgive me if the foregoing is a little muddled. I have been having some terrible sinustis headaches lately. Please pray for this sinner.

I can only speak for myself, but when I meet with these men it is always humbling to me when you talk to them and hear their stories.  You quickly realize that sin is sin and that is one of the reasons Christ called on us to minister to prisoners.  Sometimes I think it is as much for our salvation as theirs. A good friend of mine is a priest who has been involved with prison ministries for decades and I asked him once after he had just baptized a convicted child molestor and child killer, "man, I've become friends with some bad people, but how could you help this guy."  His answer to me was short and profound and I'm sure he won't mind me sharing it,

"To reply to your question: only by God's grace and mercy ... and reminding myself of the prayer we pray before receiving the precious Body and Blood of our Lord from the Chalice ... "I believe, O Lord, and I confess that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief .... "

That line in the prayer hits me every time I repeat it ... for I am the chief of all sinners ... if God is merciful to save me from my sins which are greater, He has power to forgive others, no matter what.

Pray for prisoners and for their salvation."

That is how I feel God calls us to act and why I do the work I do.  Of course, I have no problem saying the convicted child molestor murderer who was baptized was a "monster" not in OzGeorge's fairy-tale sense but in the "someone who commits monstrous acts" sense.  And I also have no problem saying I believe this same man is a child of god, his sins were washed away in baptism, and I hope to meet him someday in Heaven to see just how great is God's grace.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 10:45:06 PM by livefreeordie »

Offline Tzimis

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #194 on: July 20, 2008, 10:45:07 PM »
I believe we Orthodox think that God has created man to be spiritually good from the beginning. The condition of being a psychopath must be a learned condition and not something acquired at birth. It must be the condition the church refers to as being possessed.

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #195 on: July 20, 2008, 10:54:35 PM »
Btw. I think it is a wonderful thing your are doing for those prisoners, livefreeordie. May the lord give you strength.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #196 on: July 20, 2008, 11:48:55 PM »
It must be the condition the church refers to as being possessed.

No it isn't.


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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #197 on: July 20, 2008, 11:52:11 PM »
^And this is precisely the type of ignorance we need to dispel.
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #198 on: July 20, 2008, 11:56:40 PM »
This really surprises me that your friend doesn't know about this. Successful treatment for ASPD is over 10 years old.
Just briefly looking through my files, I found this study which is excellent and discusses treatment based partly on on Hare's work:
"The Use of the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R) and Rorschach in Treatment Planning with Antisocial Personality Disordered Patients". International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology, Vol. 42, No. 1, 49-64 (1998).

From the above article as found and referenced in The Clinical and Forensic Assessment of Psychopathy: A Practitioner's Guide : "whereas to date there is no known, empirically validated treatment for psychopaths, the prognosis in nonpsychopathic ASPDs is considerably better."

So it basically validates what I was saying, and shows why Hare makes a distinction between psychopaths and those with ASPD. Guess we both learned something today! ;)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 11:59:56 PM by livefreeordie »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #199 on: July 21, 2008, 12:01:59 AM »
Before you pat yourself on the back LFoD, do some more research. Try this for starters:
www.ramas.co.uk/report3.pdf
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #200 on: July 21, 2008, 12:19:01 AM »
Before you pat yourself on the back LFoD, do some more research. Try this for starters:
www.ramas.co.uk/report3.pdf

It was your article that made my point.

And this new article seems to be just a review of Hare's classification system and the types of treatment that are being tried.  It's 33 pages so I'd have to study it more, but nothing in it seems to contradict the other study.  On a cursory glance it basically says there is no current effective treatment, here are the treatments being tried, we shouldn't call people untreatable until we've tried all treatments. And like the first article, just seems to prove my point.  There is no known effective treatment for psychopaths.

From the report itself, and this seems to be a "treatment friendly" report,

From under Treatment Outcome-
"What little research is available, however, indicates that the nature of the psychopathic
condition has made it one of the most difficult mental disorders to treat, with more and more
psychiatrists and psychologists becoming increasingly pessimistic about their ability to deal with this
group."

And some more later on,
"The ‘untreatability’ of psychopaths has been
discussed at great length by clinicians."
Then it lists the reasons many clinicians feel this way.

And some more,
"it is easy to see from this research, and from what we know about
psychopathy generally, that patients with the condition present clinicians with an unusual number of
treatment difficulties."

And near the end has this statement of hope, which also just seems to imply the fact that at the present time there is no effective treatment for psychopaths,
"Most would agree that not all psychopaths can be deemed untreatable, until all methods of psychiatric
intervention have been tried with this group."

So again, I would agree with this second study.  We should be trying to treat psychopaths.  There is no known effective treatment yet(although what they are trying is fascinating, and the article list lots of studys they hope will show promise).  We should keep trying.

I'm 2 for 2. Yahoo! ;)


« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 12:23:06 AM by livefreeordie »

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #201 on: July 21, 2008, 12:20:05 AM »
"To reply to your question: only by God's grace and mercy ... and reminding myself of the prayer we pray before receiving the precious Body and Blood of our Lord from the Chalice ... "I believe, O Lord, and I confess that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief .... "

That line in the prayer hits me every time I repeat it ... for I am the chief of all sinners ... if God is merciful to save me from my sins which are greater, He has power to forgive others, no matter what.

Yes, that line is very humbling, I believe.

Quote
That is how I feel God calls us to act and why I do the work I do.  Of course, I have no problem saying the convicted child molestor murderer who was baptized was a "monster" not in OzGeorge's fairy-tale sense but in the "someone who commits monstrous acts" sense.  And I also have no problem saying I believe this same man is a child of god, his sins were washed away in baptism, and I hope to meet him someday in Heaven to see just how great is God's grace.

I know what you are saying, but I think that the terminology itself is demonising - dehumanising - and, therefore, degrading. Not to say that the things the person did aren't  abhorrent and definitely monstrous. I don't think that anyone is saying that we shouldn't sense horror and disgust, it's just that if we use the terminology casually it could be a slippery slope toward condemnation - and certainly it could be misread by others when they hear or see us use it as judgemental or condemning. Just my thoughts, anyway.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #202 on: July 21, 2008, 12:29:36 AM »
I'm 2 for 2. Yahoo! ;)

Yeah. ::)

May I ask: what exactly your qualifications are in working with offenders?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 12:31:09 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #203 on: July 21, 2008, 12:55:34 AM »
That's a quick way to behavior modification!

So you agree that there is a cure (in several cases), it's simply that we as a society have determined that the condition is not so bad as to warrant the 'cure'. Which begets the question of whether we even have any right to claim the condition is even an illness.

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #204 on: July 21, 2008, 12:59:37 AM »
Yeah. ::)

May I ask: what exactly your qualifications are in working with offenders?

Sure if it concerns you.

I should begin by explaining what my "work" is. Primarily I teach a class and meet with prisoners and mentally ill veterans on: 1) How I overcame drug addiction, debilitating pain, and severe PTSD as a result of a military jetcrash, 2) How I used the mental technique of compartmentalization to simplify and focus my life in order to change my life, and 3) how I help people create a life business plan, i.e. a roadmap for change and recovery. I also use music in the program to both tell my story and to give an example of how I used art to help overcome my demons.

My qualifications for this?

1) I was in a horrible military jetcrash, survived, had debilitating physical and mental pain, pain killer addiction, severe PTSD, and I overcame it. So I just tell my personal story.

2) I was taught compartmentalization in jet training and the Marines and found that it was a great technique to focus one's life and efforts, especially when dealing with trauma and sever life stresses.

3) My profession is as a business planner and I developed a graphic illustration of the life of a business called the The Dynamic Business Life Cycle.  I quickly realized it applied to life planning and I've used it for that ever since.

I've had my program approved by the the lead clinical psychologist at the VA medical center and a psychotherapist at Vanderbilt Univeristy who was a professor of mine.  I've given lectures at Purdue University and to many large businesses on my Dynamic Life Cycle, both in regards to business and life planning. I started by giving numerous performances and programs to treatment groups for a clinical psychologist who specializes with criminal behavior who then asked me to visit his prison.  And that's where it started, on a clinical psychologists recommendation that I could help prisoners.  I was actually surprised that he thought I could help since I've never been incarcerated myself, but he said all these people have experienced unbelievable trauma in their lives and he thought they would relate to me. So I did it. And I'm glad he was right because its been a wonderful experience.

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #205 on: July 21, 2008, 01:00:58 AM »
Which begets the question of whether we even have any right to claim the condition is even an illness.

Thankfully, this is the kind of question that keeps you up at night and not me! ;)

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #206 on: July 21, 2008, 01:07:59 AM »
So you agree that there is a cure (in several cases), it's simply that we as a society have determined that the condition is not so bad as to warrant the 'cure'. Which begets the question of whether we even have any right to claim the condition is even an illness.
The "McNaught" school of thought holds that psychopaths should be treated as criminals if they commit a crime and should receive no psychiatric treatment. Basically, it solves society's problem with them by incarcerating them, but this only works if they receive life sentences with no parole, because, by definition, a psychopath is incapable of benefiting from punishment.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 01:08:48 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #207 on: July 21, 2008, 01:23:28 AM »
Sure if it concerns you.

I should begin by explaining what my "work" is. Primarily I teach a class and meet with prisoners and mentally ill veterans on: 1) How I overcame drug addiction, debilitating pain, and severe PTSD as a result of a military jetcrash, 2) How I used the mental technique of compartmentalization to simplify and focus my life in order to change my life, and 3) how I help people create a life business plan, i.e. a roadmap for change and recovery. I also use music in the program to both tell my story and to give an example of how I used art to help overcome my demons.

My qualifications for this?

1) I was in a horrible military jetcrash, survived, had debilitating physical and mental pain, pain killer addiction, severe PTSD, and I overcame it. So I just tell my personal story.

2) I was taught compartmentalization in jet training and the Marines and found that it was a great technique to focus one's life and efforts, especially when dealing with trauma and sever life stresses.

3) My profession is as a business planner and I developed a graphic illustration of the life of a business called the The Dynamic Business Life Cycle.  I quickly realized it applied to life planning and I've used it for that ever since.

I've had my program approved by the the lead clinical psychologist at the VA medical center and a psychotherapist at Vanderbilt Univeristy who was a professor of mine.  I've given lectures at Purdue University and to many large businesses on my Dynamic Life Cycle, both in regards to business and life planning. I started by giving numerous performances and programs to treatment groups for a clinical psychologist who specializes with criminal behavior who then asked me to visit his prison.  And that's where it started, on a clinical psychologists recommendation that I could help prisoners.  I was actually surprised that he thought I could help since I've never been incarcerated myself, but he said all these people have experienced unbelievable trauma in their lives and he thought they would relate to me. So I did it. And I'm glad he was right because its been a wonderful experience.


I don't see how any of this qualifies you to treat the mentally ill and personality disordered.
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #208 on: July 21, 2008, 01:41:10 AM »
I don't see how any of this qualifies you to treat the mentally ill and personality disordered.

Where have I said I either treat or am qualified to treat the mentally ill and personality disordered?  I teach a class to "prisoners" (any old prisoner who shows up and wants to learn something about the 3 things I listed, I have no idea who is mentally ill and who isn't), and "mentally ill veterans" (I should have said specifically those suffering from PTSD and lately homeless veterans) who want to here a story about a fellow veteran who suffered from PTSD and survived.  I'm always very clear about the importance of being under the care of a mental health professional if you've been so diagnosed.

This started because you didn't like the fact I called psychopaths "monsters".  Then you jumped on the phrase"no effective cure for sociopaths(or as I said later, I meant psychopaths)" and tried to show my ignorance.  Of course, both of the studies you provided to prove me wrong actually provided evidence for this statement.  And I was clear this statement wasn't just my armchair quarterback opinion, but something I both read in a book by one of the leading experts on psychopaths and from a friend who specializes in psychopaths.

And so finally you revert to, "oh yea, well who are you" just so you can try and demean what I'm saying/doing when all else fails.

I'm sorry you seem to have a problem with me.  If anything I've ever posted has come across as a personal attack to you I apologize.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 01:45:31 AM by livefreeordie »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #209 on: July 21, 2008, 02:02:20 AM »
This started because you didn't like the fact I called psychopaths "monsters". 
And really, that's all it boils down to. And I still don't like it, but I will live with it.

More importantly, thank you for your Military Service.
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #210 on: July 21, 2008, 10:19:49 AM »
More importantly, thank you for your Military Service.

Thanks, and thank you for all you do to help people.

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #211 on: July 21, 2008, 10:52:34 AM »
I would say it depends on the circumstance and I think everyone has always said that. Some would aruge that it's always wrong to kill someone, but I think this is dangerously idealistic, to kill in defence of life or liberty seems perfectly acceptable to me. In some cases (say the assassination of a tyrant) this may be even formally viewed as murder, other times (such as killing an invading soldier in time of war) it may be classified as something else. In fact, this very attempt to classify different types of killing is an implicit recognition that morality in this regard is relative. Furthermore, as I pointed out in my last post, morality in this regard has changed...there was a time when murdering a disobedient child, homosexual, or witch was considered justice under a supposedly divine law (saddly this is still the case in some parts of the world), but I'm sure that today all of us here can all agree that these are clearly unacceptable forms of killing, regardless of what god said.

I can't conceive of scenario short of an over-the-top apocalyptic one where an argument could even be made to justify rape (and I'd probably even oppose it in that instance as I believe the dignity and rights of the individual to be more important than even the survival of the species...but at least an argument could be made). However, that doesn't mean that rape is wrong because of some absolute divine law, rather there are other reasons. One reason is that it's evolutionary disadvantageous for a sexually dimorphic species to allow one partner to determine suitability without input from the other (which is why there's a tendency against rape even in animal species, especially if they are social animals)...so our brains are programmed by evolution to shun rape. Then, from a rational perspective, allowing it would give society no appreciable benefit while inflicting great cost not only from an evolutionary perspective but from the perspective of liberty and human dignity.

Ironically, the only people I've heard attempt to justify rape are religious people, the ones claiming to believe in an absolute moral code, who have attempted to justify it within marriage.

It would seem to me that the only way to justify those extreme examples is WITH an absolute system of morality. If your god said you can have sex whenever you want with your wife, you can use that as an excuse to justify rape. If your god said you can kill your children or homosexuals, you can use that as an excuse to justify murder. Laws (or moral systems) based on reason and cost/benefit to society could in no way (that I can conceive) justify these things; but when you claim to have an absolute source that stands above law and reason, you can use that source to justify the otherwise unjustifiable. Which is why I argue that an absolute system of morality is more dangerous and can lead to more evil than a relativistic approach.
I am not speaking of those cases where husbands rape their wives, and I think you realize that. I am troubled with your response. Perhaps because we are coming from vastly different world views (from what I can gather, correct me if I am wrong). I don't mean to offend you either GiC. How does one determine what is right and wrong, good and evil based on what you have posted? Do you really think an absolute view brings more evils than a relativistic view?  Isn't your view in the end, an absolute view anyway?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 10:53:37 AM by PoorFoolNicholas »

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #212 on: July 21, 2008, 01:20:41 PM »
I am not speaking of those cases where husbands rape their wives, and I think you realize that. I am troubled with your response. Perhaps because we are coming from vastly different world views (from what I can gather, correct me if I am wrong). I don't mean to offend you either GiC. How does one determine what is right and wrong, good and evil based on what you have posted?

My point is that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' or 'good' or 'evil', I simply laid down a rational approach to law and society.

Quote
Do you really think an absolute view brings more evils than a relativistic view?

Yes, and I think the history of religious law bears witness to this.

Quote
Isn't your view in the end, an absolute view anyway?

No, it's relative to the society and culture in which it is established, it allows for pragmatic necessity along with ideals.

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #213 on: July 21, 2008, 01:42:04 PM »
My point is that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' or 'good' or 'evil', I simply laid down a rational approach to law and society.

Yes, and I think the history of religious law bears witness to this.

No, it's relative to the society and culture in which it is established, it allows for pragmatic necessity along with ideals.
While I agree with you that societies need certain laws and rules that are fashioned specially, and specifically for them alone, I am still having a hard time with your approach. I am not saying that atheists are immoral, god haters, incapable of good. I am saying that more often than not, the state becomes the God. How is your world view not at the end of the day a religion, with absolute teachings, thoughts, and actions based on those teachings? What you say seems absolute. I could be wrong.

Offline stanley123

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #214 on: July 21, 2008, 02:07:06 PM »
My point is that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' or 'good' or 'evil', I simply laid down a rational approach to law and society.
I believe this to be false. For example, it is wrong to say that 1+1=3 whereas it is right to say that 1+1 = 2. And this type of law applies to society inasmuch as grocery store clerks are using these laws to give change for purchases.

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #215 on: July 21, 2008, 03:52:56 PM »
I believe this to be false. For example, it is wrong to say that 1+1=3 whereas it is right to say that 1+1 = 2. And this type of law applies to society inasmuch as grocery store clerks are using these laws to give change for purchases.

But you can only say that 1+1=2 given a certain set of axiomatic conditions...even that is relative.

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #216 on: July 21, 2008, 03:55:13 PM »
While I agree with you that societies need certain laws and rules that are fashioned specially, and specifically for them alone, I am still having a hard time with your approach. I am not saying that atheists are immoral, god haters, incapable of good. I am saying that more often than not, the state becomes the God. How is your world view not at the end of the day a religion, with absolute teachings, thoughts, and actions based on those teachings? What you say seems absolute. I could be wrong.

Well, the state would probably be a better candidate for god than an invisible man in the sky, but I don't think that is necessary. If we are going to define something as a 'god' it would have to be humanity, the highest life form known to us. Yes, you can argue that humanism is a religion, but only by analogy with past systems of mythology...independent of these systems humanism would simply seem like the natural approach to philosophy.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #217 on: July 21, 2008, 03:59:13 PM »
My point is that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' or 'good' or 'evil', I simply laid down a rational approach to law and society.

Yes, and I think the history of religious law bears witness to this.

No, it's relative to the society and culture in which it is established, it allows for pragmatic necessity along with ideals.

Silly me...I should have recognized Friedrich Nietzsche's stamp earlier. It's no wonder we clash.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #218 on: July 21, 2008, 04:26:07 PM »
Well, the state would probably be a better candidate for god than an invisible man in the sky, but I don't think that is necessary. If we are going to define something as a 'god' it would have to be humanity, the highest life form known to us. Yes, you can argue that humanism is a religion, but only by analogy with past systems of mythology...independent of these systems humanism would simply seem like the natural approach to philosophy.
Yes. And I do. Do you really think less violence/horrible things in general have been done by the religion of humanism? I think you would be at a loss to say that it hasn't brought at least the same amount of violence as other religions. Why? Because humans are involved.

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #219 on: July 21, 2008, 04:32:23 PM »
I would just like to add, that I see where you are coming from GiC. I am not attacking you. I just don't see how the idea of belief in Absolute Truth coming from a lawgiver (God or other Diety), has lead to more violence and pain/suffering, than Absolute beliefs coming from a non-deity (man). Could you explain?

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #220 on: July 21, 2008, 06:42:55 PM »
Silly me...I should have recognized Friedrich Nietzsche's stamp earlier. It's no wonder we clash.

Well I did quote the guy a couple times, not like I'm hiding much. ;)

Offline prodromas

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #221 on: July 21, 2008, 09:13:08 PM »
Silly me...I should have recognized Friedrich Nietzsche's stamp earlier. It's no wonder we clash.

Yeah Nietzsche had nothing good to say at all. *sigh*
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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #222 on: July 21, 2008, 09:53:27 PM »
Well I did quote the guy a couple times, not like I'm hiding much. ;)

Guilty of acting like an Athiest.  :laugh:

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #223 on: July 21, 2008, 10:33:38 PM »
I would just like to add, that I see where you are coming from GiC. I am not attacking you. I just don't see how the idea of belief in Absolute Truth coming from a lawgiver (God or other Diety), has lead to more violence and pain/suffering, than Absolute beliefs coming from a non-deity (man). Could you explain?
No response GiC? I will use a tag line you are familiar with:
I'll take that as a concession ;D!

Offline SolEX01

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #224 on: July 22, 2008, 12:24:00 AM »
Silly me...I should have recognized Friedrich Nietzsche's stamp earlier. It's no wonder we clash.

I said the following in the Creationism vs. Evolutionism Thread:

Quote from: SolEX01
Without God, there's freedom.  I'm basically regurgitating my understanding of Nietschze.  If I've fallen short, I apologize.

I don't clash with GiC because I figured out his view and I respect him rather than begrudge him.   ;)