Author Topic: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics  (Read 49564 times)

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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #135 on: July 19, 2008, 06:52:26 AM »
The more you believe in monsters, the more power you give them. :)
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #136 on: July 19, 2008, 11:31:41 AM »
The more you believe in monsters, the more power you give them. :)

Of course, Monsters do exist whether you believe in them or not, and they are more than happy to enter your home and attack your family if you let them.  And when their victims are lying on the floor in a pool of blood, the only one smiling is the monster.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 11:33:04 AM by livefreeordie »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #137 on: July 19, 2008, 11:56:16 AM »
I don't believe in monsters.
Try ignoring them.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #138 on: July 19, 2008, 12:25:27 PM »
I don't believe in monsters.
Try ignoring them.

Hardly an apt response to what may be an actual experience.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #139 on: July 19, 2008, 12:54:57 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E6Uy1wbDrc

Bo nefazer et masach ha'arafel                   Let's disperse the screen of fog.
Bo na'amod ba'or velo batzel                      let's stand in the light and not in the shade
Ad matay nam'shich livro'ach                      How long will we continue running away,
El mischakim shel ko'ach                            To the games of control?
Mutar lekha livkot lifamim                           You are allowed to cry sometimes,
K'shemashehu nishbar becha bifnim              When something breaks inside of you.

Saper li ktzat al rigei hapachad                   Tell me a little about the moments of fear
Kal harbeh yoter lefached beyachad            As it is much easier to fear together.

Uk'sheruchot karot yis'aru bachutz              And when cold winds storm outside,
Eshlach becha esh chamah                        I will send to you a warm fire.
Yom echad ulay tafsik larutz                      One day maybe you will stop running,
Bein hatzlalim baneshamah                         Among the shadows in the soul.


Bo nefazer et masach ha'arafel                   Let's disperse the screen of fog.
Bo na'amod ba'or velo batzel                      let's stand in the light and not in the shade
Ad matay nam'shich livro'ach                      How long will we continue running away,
El mischakim shel ko'ach                            To the games of control?
Mutar lecha lir'od lifamim                           You are allowed to shiver sometimes,
K'shemashehu nifla koreh bifnim                  When something wonderful happens inside.

Saper li ktzat al rigei ha'osher                     Tell me a bit about the moments of bliss
Ad sheya'aleh aleynu haboker                     Until the morning sunrise is upon us.

Uk'sheruchot karot yis'aru bachutz              And when cold winds storm outside,
Eshlach becha esh chamah                        I will send to you a warm fire. 
Yom echad ulay tafsik larutz                      One day maybe you will stop running,
Bein hatzlalim baneshamah                         Among the shadows in the soul.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #140 on: July 19, 2008, 04:32:49 PM »
I don't believe in monsters.
Try ignoring them.

I see and meet with monsters every week, they are hard to ignore.  From murderers who smiled their way into homes only to molest a child or murder a family, or a Harvard educated honors student with an IQ as high as anyone I've ever met who turned fraud into a science.  They both are really good at charming people and saying the right thing, the entire time working their way into people's confidence.  The Harvard guy broke out of prison by convincing a counselor he was reformed, misunderstood and had the highest potential of anyone the counselor had ever treated of being reformed.  Although fellow counselors said, "be careful of this guy, he only cares about himself and is an evil sociopath", this particular counselor was in a position of authority and ultimately put the Harvard fellow in a position where he had a level of freedom and autonomy within the prison.  Anyone who criticized the counselor he labeled as being judgemental and paranoid. The result, the first day the Harvard fellow could, he used his position to escape the prison.  Before they caught him he had taken and spent the life savings of at least 2 elderly women.  The counselor was fired, but the damage was done.

Monsters love it when we ignore them.  They love it even more when they are aided in their mission of havoc and destruction by well meaning, but naive people.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 04:40:29 PM by livefreeordie »

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #141 on: July 19, 2008, 05:24:05 PM »
They both are really good at charming people and saying the right thing, the entire time working their way into people's confidence.  The Harvard guy broke out of prison by convincing a counselor he was reformed, misunderstood and had the highest potential of anyone the counselor had ever treated of being reformed.  Although fellow counselors said, "be careful of this guy, he only cares about himself and is an evil sociopath", this particular counselor was in a position of authority and ultimately put the Harvard fellow in a position where he had a level of freedom and autonomy within the prison.  Anyone who criticized the counselor he labeled as being judgemental and paranoid. The result, the first day the Harvard fellow could, he used his position to escape the prison.  Before they caught him he had taken and spent the life savings of at least 2 elderly women.  The counselor was fired, but the damage was done.

Interesting to see who you define as a monster, from your description I would say that this guy rather approaches the Nietzschen 'Übermensch' (many of which have been called monsters throughout history)...he would be more, not less, human than others. He was able to manipulate and overcome the counselor who was clearly his inferior, despite being given (an obviously undeserved) position of authority by society. His greatest flaw, it would seem, is the scope of his endevours. Unlike the true Übermensch of history, from Alexander the Great to Caesar Augustus to Genghis Khan to Napoleon Bonaparte, rather than conquer continents the best he could do is make a few bucks here and there.

As you well demonstrated, 'monster' is a title given out of fear, either fear because of ignorance or fear because of inferiority. In either case, this fact doesn't speak too highly of those who would apply this label to others.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #142 on: July 19, 2008, 06:00:31 PM »
I see and meet with monsters every week, they are hard to ignore.
People are not monsters. Even a sociopath is not a monster; they are a human being with a personality disorder.
No one falls any lower than the lowest that's in all of us.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #143 on: July 19, 2008, 06:36:24 PM »
People are not monsters. Even a sociopath is not a monster; they are a human being with a personality disorder.
No one falls any lower than the lowest that's in all of us.
Yes, to call someone a monster is to make that person out to be less than human, someone therefore beyond God's salvation.  The thing to remember, though, is that any one of us, when enslaved to passions, can become like these so-called monsters.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #144 on: July 19, 2008, 06:40:54 PM »
Yes, to call someone a monster is to make that person out to be less than human,
And in the case of sociopaths, its even worse, because calling them "monsters" makes them more powerful than they actually are, and one falls right into their manipulative trap.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #145 on: July 19, 2008, 06:41:29 PM »
People are not monsters. Even a sociopath is not a monster; they are a human being with a personality disorder.
'Monster' is simply a description of someone with a criminally maladaptive behavior problem.  I doubt LForD actually believes those he meets with are not human.  It's like calling someone a jackass; the name caller doesn't really think he's speaking to a male donkey. ;)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 06:43:54 PM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #146 on: July 19, 2008, 06:43:52 PM »
'Monster' is simply a description of someone with a criminally maladaptive behavior problem.  I doubt LForD actually believes those he meets with are not human.  It's like calling someone a jackass; the name caller doesn't really think he's speaking to a mule. ;)
So then, like me, he doesn't believe in monsters?
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Offline username!

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #147 on: July 19, 2008, 08:41:27 PM »
I agree with our OzGeorge.  Christians are supposed to see that all men are created equal and to respect the life of everyone on Earth.  Remember the story of the good Samaritan?  Remember that we are to not judge.  That we are to love.  And that we are to forgive.  And this applies to all mankind not just those we deem as our fellow believers.  Therefore it would be improper to create terms and categories such as "monster" for a fellow man.  Such terms denigrate the person and in as much society is basically saying they are less than human.  Further when society and people attach terms to men who they feel are "inferior" they are acknowledging their own weakness.  The weakness to love one another, forgive, respect, share, feed, clothe, give drink to the thirsty and so on.  Applying names, terms, definitions and categories to people is easier than actually providing the help and care they need.  So society just supports categories and names, make someone less than human than the people in the society don't have to bother with treating that person as an equal and providing the love and compassion every man deserves. 
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 08:42:20 PM by username! »

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #148 on: July 19, 2008, 09:45:25 PM »
Thanks for the sermon, username! All of that is true.
But it does not deny that monstrous human beings do exist. Try, as I have, a few months in jail and prison ministry. You'll find the full gamut there from truly repentant convicts to self-absorbed Nietzschean Supermen whose only remorse is not beating the rap. The demon exists and will fill any vacuum in our heart created when we push God out.
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #149 on: July 19, 2008, 10:32:34 PM »
Thanks for the sermon, username! All of that is true.
But it does not deny that monstrous human beings do exist. Try, as I have, a few months in jail and prison ministry. You'll find the full gamut there from truly repentant convicts to self-absorbed Nietzschean Supermen whose only remorse is not beating the rap. The demon exists and will fill any vacuum in our heart created when we push God out.
This is so off topic, man....But I agree that there are men and women that have so exiled God from their lives that they are in some way monsters. Lord have Mercy!

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #150 on: July 19, 2008, 10:51:51 PM »
This is so off topic, man....

Think so? Re-read post #141 above, carefully.
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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #151 on: July 19, 2008, 11:19:11 PM »
Thanks for the sermon, username! All of that is true.
But it does not deny that monstrous human beings do exist. Try, as I have, a few months in jail and prison ministry. You'll find the full gamut there from truly repentant convicts to self-absorbed Nietzschean Supermen whose only remorse is not beating the rap. The demon exists and will fill any vacuum in our heart created when we push God out.

I can give you another sermon?  Hey everyone has to try for his chance to win the Post of The Month every once in a while. 

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #152 on: July 19, 2008, 11:56:45 PM »
Think so? Re-read post #141 above, carefully.
I don't mean to offend, but you really seem to have an ax to grind. Or am I perceiving your response to me incorrectly? It just seems really demeaning for no particular reason at all.

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #153 on: July 20, 2008, 02:08:51 AM »
I don't mean to offend, but you really seem to have an ax to grind. Or am I perceiving your response to me incorrectly? It just seems really demeaning for no particular reason at all.

Oh, he does...but I enjoy every minute of it and I can just see the anger and frustration in his posts. So let him be and let me have my fun. ;D

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #154 on: July 20, 2008, 03:27:29 AM »
Oh, he does...but I enjoy every minute of it and I can just see the anger and frustration in his posts. So let him be and let me have my fun. ;D

To wit: troll!
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Offline prodromas

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #155 on: July 20, 2008, 03:35:18 AM »
To wit: troll!

*sigh* Αριστοκλής you know that this is the exact behaviour he wants. I mean we all got this advice when we were kids, just ignore him.

PS: I do find it funny how GIC riles you up with out doing anything.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #156 on: July 20, 2008, 04:02:50 AM »
*sigh* Αριστοκλής you know that this is the exact behaviour he wants. I mean we all got this advice when we were kids, just ignore him.

PS: I do find it funny how GIC riles you up with out doing anything.

Right you are! And I do find him "funny".
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #157 on: July 20, 2008, 10:21:56 AM »
I'm not sure what is a bigger nuthouse, this board or the prison's I visit! ;)

I've been visiting prisons, etc. weekly for years.  I can only continue to do it because of the friendships I've made, and all the men who continually surprise me, in good ways.  One of the finest human beings I've ever met is a man who is serving a life sentence for double murder, a horrible double murder.  Yet, after 30 plus years he is truly an example of Christian love and for the last 20 years he's been a model prisoner and help to many.  We've talked much.  But he was a monster when he brutally murdered and raped two people.  He would say and agree he was a monster.  Calling him something different is neither charitable nor demeaning.  He was a monster.

If you guys are so hung up on a word "monster", well then i've happy to use something else, "cookie monster", "bad man", whatever.  You can call something or someone a horrible word that describes their actions and still love them.  I think "monster" is a pretty good way to describe "monstrous" actions. This entire ultra PC "don't call him a bad word, that isn't helpful" just seems like its more of an ego trip for people who want to lecture everybody else on judging.

When I go in prison's I see a lot of "monsters" or "cookie monsters" or "bad man" and I try to love everyone of them.  Often I'm suprised by the grace I see in them, often times I'm glad I've looked at them with a truthful eye because there are many who would take advantage of those who help them.

Love your neighbor.  Even if he's a monster! ;)

And to clarify since there seems to be much confusion here, by Monster I mean - "a person who excites horror by wickedness, cruelty, etc" or "anything unnatural or monstrous".  I don't mean "a legendary animal combining features of animal and human form or having the forms of various animals in combination, as a centaur, griffin, or sphinx."  ;)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 10:52:36 AM by livefreeordie »

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #158 on: July 20, 2008, 10:59:34 AM »
And in the case of sociopaths, its even worse, because calling them "monsters" makes them more powerful than they actually are, and one falls right into their manipulative trap.

Really?  Typically people that recognize a sociopath as a monster run from them and escape their manipulative trap.  Ask any inmate and they'll tell you that they always try to go for easy marks (fyi, the best deterrents to a thief entering your home are an alarm sign and a "Beware of Dog" sign. Even if you own neither.)  If they think you are able to see them for what they are they will avoid you. Sociopaths tend to trap people they've fooled into believing they aren't monsters.  Like the women who fall in love and Marry men on death row.  Does their "love" reform the sociopath, or just give him someone new to exploit.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 11:11:33 AM by livefreeordie »

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #159 on: July 20, 2008, 11:42:39 AM »
To wit: troll!

If it wasn't for the fact that you initiate it, you may have a point. But I simply post as I've always posted, the only difference is that my opinions have changed slightly (though not substantially, in any matter of substance from politics to economics to academics, and most anything else of significance, they have stayed the same).

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #160 on: July 20, 2008, 11:46:41 AM »
YOU started the thread - getting around the 'not another gay thread' directive here.
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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #161 on: July 20, 2008, 11:50:49 AM »
First, God bless both LForD AND George for taking the time to visit with and showing Christ to these people.  You both are doing the Lord's work and I thank God for people like you.  Although I can see merit in both positions, I tend to agree more with LForD because it just makes more sense.  Had LForD called them monsters in an un-charitable manner, then that would be completely different.  I think his advice is very honest about what type of people he's dealing with, but, he doesn't simply label them and go about his business; he's actually taking the time to reform them (I don't personally know LForD but I trust that he's not lying to us ;)).  Labels, whether we like them or not, are helpful in our day to day lives.  As Christians, I feel that it's perfectly OK to employ them so long as we also recognize that labels simply identify behaviors and that ultimately, we're still talking about the Image and Likeness of God.
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Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #162 on: July 20, 2008, 11:53:54 AM »
I've been visiting prisons, etc. weekly for years.  I can only continue to do it because of the friendships I've made, and all the men who continually surprise me, in good ways.  One of the finest human beings I've ever met is a man who is serving a life sentence for double murder, a horrible double murder.  Yet, after 30 plus years he is truly an example of Christian love and for the last 20 years he's been a model prisoner and help to many.  We've talked much.  But he was a monster when he brutally murdered and raped two people.  He would say and agree he was a monster.  Calling him something different is neither charitable nor demeaning.  He was a monster.

If you guys are so hung up on a word "monster", well then i've happy to use something else, "cookie monster", "bad man", whatever.  You can call something or someone a horrible word that describes their actions and still love them.  I think "monster" is a pretty good way to describe "monstrous" actions. This entire ultra PC "don't call him a bad word, that isn't helpful" just seems like its more of an ego trip for people who want to lecture everybody else on judging.

When I go in prison's I see a lot of "monsters" or "cookie monsters" or "bad man" and I try to love everyone of them.  Often I'm suprised by the grace I see in them, often times I'm glad I've looked at them with a truthful eye because there are many who would take advantage of those who help them.

My disagreement is on a level far more fundamental than mere semantics, I object to your claim to be able to make a moral judgement. One has no right and no basis to say that a person is 'bad' because they killed someone, we can only say that their killing of someone is disruptive to society and as a society we should act to protect ourselves. It may very well be they who are good and society as a whole that is evil, but good or evil (whatever those words mean) it is beneficial for a society to protect itself. The 'right' or 'wrong' is not only irrelevant, but distracting from the true issues. It is because of labels like this that we still have the death penalty, that we have draconian punishments for victimless crimes, it's why our society oppressed women and ethnic minorities, morality has been the source of more true evil than any species should ever have to endure.

Quote
And to clarify since there seems to be much confusion here, by Monster I mean - "a person who excites horror by wickedness, cruelty, etc" or "anything unnatural or monstrous".

Ironic, that's how I would describe a person of faith. ;D But inspite of these character shortcommings, I wouldn't go so far as to label you a 'monster'. ;)

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #163 on: July 20, 2008, 11:55:16 AM »
YOU started the thread - getting around the 'not another gay thread' directive here.

Actually I took a rather fair shot at an utterly absurd and ludicrous posting on a different thread and someone else decided to make a new thread out of it.

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #164 on: July 20, 2008, 12:09:49 PM »
The more you believe in monsters, the more power you give them. :)

If you had said, "the more you feed a monster, the more power you give him" I would have agreed with you!  ;) ;)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 12:10:07 PM by livefreeordie »

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #165 on: July 20, 2008, 04:38:44 PM »
Oh, he does...but I enjoy every minute of it and I can just see the anger and frustration in his posts. So let him be and let me have my fun. ;D
Ha! Fair enough sir, fair enough. :-*

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #166 on: July 20, 2008, 04:42:32 PM »
....good or evil (whatever those words mean).... The 'right' or 'wrong' is not only irrelevant, but distracting from the true issues.
I am wondering GiC, do you believe that there is an Absolute Truth to be had? When you say that good and evil are irrelevant I have to wonder what exactly you mean. At some point, at the bottom of everything, there has to be a right and a wrong, doesn't there? 
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 04:43:00 PM by PoorFoolNicholas »

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #167 on: July 20, 2008, 05:11:06 PM »
I am wondering GiC, do you believe that there is an Absolute Truth to be had? When you say that good and evil are irrelevant I have to wonder what exactly you mean. At some point, at the bottom of everything, there has to be a right and a wrong, doesn't there? 

No, I don't think there does. I don't think the universe is that nice and clean, nothing is that black and white. Furthermore, I think it's actually dangerous to try to apply absolute standards to human behaviour. To quote one o Jefferson's more famous quotes (it's actually paraphrased on the Jefferson Memorial):

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I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the same coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.

While he was talking specifically about our constitution, there is the underlying assumption that laws are based on this concept of 'morality' (though certainly not an absolute morality). In the end as we learn, progress, and become more enlightened our values change, I would argue they improve, and our understanding of right and wrong changes.

This clinging to an absolute morality has lead to and continues to lead to several injustices, interracial marriages were opposed based on an interpretation of scripture mandating that each kind take after its own kind, today women are oppressed and denied advancement and positions of authority within ecclesiastical bodies based on outdated and, quite frankly, evil systems of morality, homosexuals are oppressed and relegated to the status of second-class citizens by religious institutions, untold suffering is brought about by the belief of the Roman Church that condoms are somehow more dangerous than AIDS or by near-absolute prohibitions on abortion.

Even within Christianity there is an implicit understanding of this fact of changing morality (though, saddly, this realization seems to come far later within any given religious sect than within society in general), though often accompanied by an explicit denial. A common example used on this forum is usury, surely no one today would want to face the consequences of applying anti-usury laws to our modern economy? Another example would be that I'm sure many here would label a man who murdered his child for disobedience to be a monster, and such a person would clearly be a grave threat to society and should by no means be allowed to be free, but under a literal interpretation of Scripture his actions were perfectly good in justified, in line with divine law. And what of witches? Would any sane person today advocate the execution of witches? Well, according to scripture those who practice witchcraft should be murdered, but our values fortunately would not allow that. To quote another very quotable man, Nietzsche:

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Although the most acute judges of the witches and even the witches themselves, were convinced of the guilt of witchery, the guilt nevertheless was non-existent. It is thus with all guilt.

Each time and era has a morality, a morality that is necessary for that society to function and survive...but every successive generation has the chance to improve on that morality, it's not absolute, infact I would argue that our morality is imperfect and I hope that the next generation can see even more imperfections in it and improve upon it to create a better morality and a better society.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 05:12:56 PM by greekischristian »

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #168 on: July 20, 2008, 05:22:32 PM »
Is murder good, or is it evil? Is it OK to rape? Is rape good, or is it evil? I know I am using rather extreme examples, but I wish to make a point. Morality is at some points, as you stated previously, culturally based, i.e. slavery, etc., etc. But what of certain other things which I listed above. Will they one day be seen as good by a society? And if so, would that make them moral?

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #169 on: July 20, 2008, 05:57:24 PM »
Is murder good, or is it evil?

I would say it depends on the circumstance and I think everyone has always said that. Some would aruge that it's always wrong to kill someone, but I think this is dangerously idealistic, to kill in defence of life or liberty seems perfectly acceptable to me. In some cases (say the assassination of a tyrant) this may be even formally viewed as murder, other times (such as killing an invading soldier in time of war) it may be classified as something else. In fact, this very attempt to classify different types of killing is an implicit recognition that morality in this regard is relative. Furthermore, as I pointed out in my last post, morality in this regard has changed...there was a time when murdering a disobedient child, homosexual, or witch was considered justice under a supposedly divine law (saddly this is still the case in some parts of the world), but I'm sure that today all of us here can all agree that these are clearly unacceptable forms of killing, regardless of what god said.

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Is it OK to rape? Is rape good, or is it evil?

I can't conceive of scenario short of an over-the-top apocalyptic one where an argument could even be made to justify rape (and I'd probably even oppose it in that instance as I believe the dignity and rights of the individual to be more important than even the survival of the species...but at least an argument could be made). However, that doesn't mean that rape is wrong because of some absolute divine law, rather there are other reasons. One reason is that it's evolutionary disadvantageous for a sexually dimorphic species to allow one partner to determine suitability without input from the other (which is why there's a tendency against rape even in animal species, especially if they are social animals)...so our brains are programmed by evolution to shun rape. Then, from a rational perspective, allowing it would give society no appreciable benefit while inflicting great cost not only from an evolutionary perspective but from the perspective of liberty and human dignity.

Ironically, the only people I've heard attempt to justify rape are religious people, the ones claiming to believe in an absolute moral code, who have attempted to justify it within marriage.

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I know I am using rather extreme examples, but I wish to make a point. Morality is at some points, as you stated previously, culturally based, i.e. slavery, etc., etc. But what of certain other things which I listed above. Will they one day be seen as good by a society? And if so, would that make them moral?

It would seem to me that the only way to justify those extreme examples is WITH an absolute system of morality. If your god said you can have sex whenever you want with your wife, you can use that as an excuse to justify rape. If your god said you can kill your children or homosexuals, you can use that as an excuse to justify murder. Laws (or moral systems) based on reason and cost/benefit to society could in no way (that I can conceive) justify these things; but when you claim to have an absolute source that stands above law and reason, you can use that source to justify the otherwise unjustifiable. Which is why I argue that an absolute system of morality is more dangerous and can lead to more evil than a relativistic approach.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 05:58:15 PM by greekischristian »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #170 on: July 20, 2008, 06:02:06 PM »
Really?  Typically people that recognize a sociopath as a monster run from them and escape their manipulative trap.  Ask any inmate and they'll tell you that they always try to go for easy marks (fyi, the best deterrents to a thief entering your home are an alarm sign and a "Beware of Dog" sign. Even if you own neither.)  If they think you are able to see them for what they are they will avoid you. Sociopaths tend to trap people they've fooled into believing they aren't monsters.  Like the women who fall in love and Marry men on death row.  Does their "love" reform the sociopath, or just give him someone new to exploit.
Making them "monsters" may cause some to flee, but then, so would understanding that they are sociopaths, so why not use the truth rather than a make-believe children's fairytale? The trouble with making them "monsters" means that when people encounter them, and they don't appear to be "monsters", then they fall right into their manipulative traps. How many times have you heard those women who marry sociopathic prisoners say things like: "but I know him and he's not the monster they say he is." With a bit of education, people can learn what an Antisocial Personality Disorder entails and their M.O.
Telling someone that so-and-so is a "monster" when they don't look like a "monster" or come across as a "monster" is counterproductive, and protects no one.
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #171 on: July 20, 2008, 07:15:33 PM »
Making them "monsters" may cause some to flee, but then, so would understanding that they are sociopaths, so why not use the truth rather than a make-believe children's fairytale? The trouble with making them "monsters" means that when people encounter them, and they don't appear to be "monsters", then they fall right into their manipulative traps. How many times have you heard those women who marry sociopathic prisoners say things like: "but I know him and he's not the monster they say he is." With a bit of education, people can learn what an Antisocial Personality Disorder entails and their M.O.
Telling someone that so-and-so is a "monster" when they don't look like a "monster" or come across as a "monster" is counterproductive, and protects no one.

Truth :o, you could start by characterizing what I'm saying truthfully.  Nothing I've said characterizes anyone as a children's fairytale.  People I meet have committed "monstrous" acts and to call them "monsters" within the terms of the definition I typed out above is both accurate and shows an understanding of a sociopath. True sociopaths have almost 0% chance of being reformed and will prey on people for their entire lives.  I meet with many professionals in the field and while we usually use technical terms when discussing the issue such as Antisocial Personality Disorder the word "monster" definately comes up and is used.

And to set you at ease, when I meet with prisoners I never call them "monsters" or any negative word for that matter.  I call them men, and tell them I'm here to be their friend whatever they might have done.  But some of them are "monsters" and remembering that keeps me focused on the fact many of them would take advantage of me and others or worse.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 07:18:50 PM by livefreeordie »

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #172 on: July 20, 2008, 07:23:08 PM »
Making them "monsters" may cause some to flee, but then, so would understanding that they are sociopaths, so why not use the truth rather than a make-believe children's fairytale? The trouble with making them "monsters" means that when people encounter them, and they don't appear to be "monsters", then they fall right into their manipulative traps. How many times have you heard those women who marry sociopathic prisoners say things like: "but I know him and he's not the monster they say he is." With a bit of education, people can learn what an Antisocial Personality Disorder entails and their M.O.
Telling someone that so-and-so is a "monster" when they don't look like a "monster" or come across as a "monster" is counterproductive, and protects no one.
It sounds like you've had some experience with this, George. ;) :)
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #173 on: July 20, 2008, 07:36:38 PM »
It sounds like you've had some experience with this, George. ;) :)

Of course he does!  He would also know their is no known effective treatment or therapy for sociopaths and many think therapy actually makes them worse, or "better" sociopaths.  I'm all for people understanding the disorder and learning to recognize it.  Then they'll recognize these "monsters" ;) for what they are and run when they encounter them. A good place to start would be Robert Hare's book, Without Conscience. A friend and therapist who specializes in sociopaths recommended it to me and it's very good at unmasking just what a sociopath is.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 07:37:13 PM by livefreeordie »

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #174 on: July 20, 2008, 07:41:20 PM »
If someone were going to actually take the time to properly understand the disorder (which I seriously doubt anyone here does, but if they do I hope they chime in as I am certainly curious about the neurology behind it), wouldn't it make more sense for them to continue their research and attempt to overcome it, rather than running the opposite direction?

Whether or not it's a condition that actually needs 'cured' is certainly up for debate, but understanding it from a neurological/genetic perspective would be useful regardless of your opinion on that matter.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 07:42:34 PM by greekischristian »

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #175 on: July 20, 2008, 07:44:34 PM »
If someone were going to actually take the time to properly understand the disorder (which I seriously doubt anyone here does, but if they do I hope they chime in as I am certainly curious about the neurology behind it), wouldn't it make more sense for them to continue their research and attempt to overcome it, rather than running the opposite direction?

Whether or not it's a condition that actually needs 'cured' is certainly up for debate, but understanding it from a neurological/genetic perspective would be useful regardless of your opinion on that matter.

Well of course, I'm all for them being studied.  Again, Rober Hare is the expert. But since I agree no here is probably going to be doing that, they should run from them.  Like they would from any "monster".  ;)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 07:45:55 PM by livefreeordie »

Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #176 on: July 20, 2008, 07:50:17 PM »
Well of course, I'm all for them being studied.  Again, Rober Hare is the expert. But since I agree no here is probably going to be doing that, they should run from them.  Like they would from any "monster".  ;)

The Criminal Psychologist? I'd be more interested if he was a peurologist or at least a psychiatrist.

Ah, and if I see a monster, I'd be far more interested in getting a sample of their DNA or RNA or whatever happens to be the basis of their genetic code than running the other way...you run the first time, you may not get another opportunity. ;)

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #177 on: July 20, 2008, 08:41:11 PM »
He would also know their is no known effective treatment or therapy for sociopaths
Actually, he doesn't know this. In fact, he knows the opposite. (And why am I talking about myself in third person?)
Interim combination medication together with talking therapy which is neither DBT nor CBT based, but rather based on a combination of psychoanalysis, confrontational therapy, re-parenting and mindfulness has worked with ASPD.
You see: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #178 on: July 20, 2008, 08:53:03 PM »
The Criminal Psychologist? I'd be more interested if he was a peurologist or at least a psychiatrist.
Actually, Dr. Robert Hare has made huge contributions to the successful treatment of ASPD. He is a Professor of Psychology at UBC and has worked in the field of ASPD for over 30 years.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 08:56:02 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #179 on: July 20, 2008, 09:07:08 PM »
Actually, he doesn't know this. In fact, he knows the opposite. (And why am I talking about myself in third person?)
Interim combination medication together with talking therapy which is neither DBT nor CBT based, but rather based on a combination of psychoanalysis, confrontational therapy, re-parenting and mindfulness has worked with ASPD.
You see: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Yes it is.  For all of us.  I'd really be interested in seeing that study.  I'm not talking from the hip, I got into prisons thanks to who a friend who is an expert in this field and in his opinion there is no effective treatment for a sociopath. And for that matter, I haven't met any of his peers who would think so.  Doesn't mean somebody hasn't figured it out though.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 09:17:15 PM by livefreeordie »