EP suggests "dual unity" for Eastern Catholics?

[Heracleides]

If I were you, I wouldn't try that with them. They'll probably immediately demand you convert and repent of your "heresy" and schism, and then, following your refusal, solemnly banish you to the outer darkness. 

Such would be the more authentic Catholic stance, rather than the post Vatican II twaddle.  Rather than detracting from Pope Michael, what you surmise above would actually seem to legitimize him, insofar as he would be holding to the historic Catholic position of the last millennium much more faithfully than your Pope Benedict.   

[Orthodoc]

Orthodoc,

My opinion, the EP knows Ukraine will be the straw that broke the camels back.  The MP has tolerated Estonia, Western Europe, and America but not what it considers its backyard, Ukraine.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I agree!  However, the EP is also quite aware that not one canonical Orthodox Church in the world recognizes the UAOC or this Tomos no one seems th be able to produce.

Orthodoc

[Keble]

Just to clarify your 'correction' & 'point'....

Well, she has the rest of her life to "practice her Muslim faith", no matter what any bishop does. And inasmuch as she remains an Episcopal priest, she is not permitted to exercise her office. So those parts I don't think could be considered corrections as much as they are belaborings of certain points.

That the bishop of the diocese in which she physically resides is scandalous hardly needs belaboring. Scandalous bishops, however, are not hard to come by.

[Jakub]

Pope Michael...hmm, don't bogart that joint my friend, pass it over to me...

[Acolyte]

I remember when this was called the Zoghby Initiative:
http://kalamation.com/HolyLand/ZoghbyUnity.html

While I agree with most of its proposals, I don't know why it's appropriate now if it wasn't then.

[Deacon Lance]

After doing some research it appears the UAOC's claim to autocephaly relies on the Tomos given to the Polish Orthodox Church.  Now before anyone starts, we all know the "Polish" Orthodox Church is comprised almost entirely of Ukrainians and Belarusans.  So it seems the UAOC which emerged in Western Ukraine (which was not part of the Soviet Union at the time of the Tomos of 1924) during WWII, saw their right to autocephaly as a logical extension of the grant to the Polish Orthodox Church.  If the Ukrainian Orthodox of Poland, no longer part of Russia, were autocephalous, the Ukrainian Orthodox of Ukraine, also no longer part of Russia, should be autocephalous too.  They also see the autonomy of the Metropolitans of Kyiv and the Metropolitans of Halych as giving them precedent.  Many of the UAOC members were former Greek Catholics which also probably didn't endear the MP to them.  Finally the support given them by the Polish Orthodox Church (Metropolitan Dionisij ordained them bishops) encouraged them.

The Tomos:

+GREGORIOS VII, by the grace of God Archbishop of Constantinople -the New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch

The Holy Orthodox Church in the God-Protected Polish State, endowed with an autonomous system and administration and proving its firmness in faith, zealousness by charitable works has requested our Holy Apostolic and Ecumenical Patriarchal See to bless and confirm its autocephalous administrative system, considering that in the new circumstances of political life, only such a system can satisfy and guarantee its needs.

Examining this request with love, taking into consideration the structions of the holy canons, which have established that the system of church affairs should correspond with the political and community forms (IV Ecumenical Council, canon 17, VI Ecumenical Council, canon 38), as well as the reasoning of Photius: "It is acceptable that laws which relate to church affairs, and especially parish matters, should correspond with political and administrative changes", from another point of view, bowing before the demands of canonical obligations, which impose upon our Holy Ecumenical See concern for Orthodox Churches, who are in need; considering also the fact, which is not contradicted by history (for it is recorded that the first separation from our See of the Kyivan Metropolia and the Orthodox Metropolia of Lithuania and Poland, dependent upon it, as well as their incorporation within the Holy Moscovite Church was accomplished contrary to canon law, as also all that which was agreed upon regarding the full church autonomy of the Kyivan Metropolitan, who at the time had the title Exarch of the Ecumenical See), We and our Holy Metropolitans, Our beloved brothers and co-workers in the Holy Spirit, considered it our obligation to give ear to the request presented to Us by the Holy Orthodox Church in Poland and to give Our blessing and approval to its autocephalous and independent administration.

As a consequence of this conciliar decision, following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, We have decided: to recognize an autocephalic administration for the Orthodox Church in Poland and give our blessings to this, so that from this day on It may be governed as a spiritual Sister, and decided Its affairs independently and in an autocephalic manner, according to the regulations and unlimited rights of other Holy Autocephalic Orthodox Churches, recognizing as its Supreme Church Authority, the Holy Synod, composed of orthodox canonical bishops in Poland, whose president shall at all times be the Blessed Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland. To preserve and canonically maintain united with Our Holy Apostolic Ecumenical Patriarchal See, as well as with all other Autocephalic Orthodox Churches, We mention here the obligations which every Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland will have: ie. to inform, according to the regulations of the Holy Orthodox, of his election and enthronization by an enthronization letter Our Great Christian Church as well as all other Autocephalous Orthodox Sister-Churches: To retain everything related to a firm maintenance of the Faith and Orthodox piety, as well as all that is commanded by the holy canons and regulations of the Orthodox Church; to also commemorate in accordance with regulations in the Diptychs the name of the Ecumenical Patriarch and other Patriarchs as well as the Hierarchs of other Autocephalic Churches. In addition to this we decree, that the Autocephalous Orthodox Sister-Church in Poland must obtain its Holy Myrh (oil) from Our Great Christian Church. We advise at this time, that in matters concerning church order and in matters of a more general nature, which are beyond the jurisdictional limits of every Autocephalous Church acting individually, that the Blessed Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland to apply to Our Holy Ecumenical Patriarchal See, through whose mediation union with every Orthodox Church, "... rightly teaching the word of truth" and request authoritive opinions and help from Sister-Churches.

Having carefully reviewed and considered all this at canonical meetings of the Holy Synod on the sixth and eleventh of November, 1924, We have entrusted, after the approval of the Synod, this Synodical and Patriarchal Tomos, accurately and unalteredly copied, as it is recorded in the Codex of Our Great Christian Church, to the Blessed +DIONISIJ, Our beloved brother and co-worker in Christ, Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland and President of the Holy Synod of the Autocephalic Orthodox Church in Poland.

May the Lord God strengthen unto the ages, by the grace and merits of the First Great and Supreme Pastor, Christ our God, the Autocephalous Sister-Church in Poland, so fortunately organized, may He raise and increase everything in it to the glory of His Holy Name, for the benefit of Its pious flock and for the joy of all Autocephalous Orthodox Sister Churches.



In the year of Our Lord 1924, November 13th.

The Patriarch of Constantinople, +GREGORIOS VII (Approved).
The Metropolitan of Kiza, +KALYNYK
The Metropolitan of Sardia and Pisidia, +HERMAN
The Metropolitan of Nicea, BASIL
The Metropolitan of Chaldea, +JOAKIM
The Metropolitan of Philadelphia, +PHOTIUS
The Metropolitan of Derkos, +CONSTANTINE
The Metropolitan of Syliria, +EUGENE
The Metropolitan of Brus, +NICODEMOUS
The Metropolitan of Rodopolia, +CYRIL
The Metropolitan of the Princes Islands, +AHAFANAHEL
The Metropolitan of Neocesarea, +AMBROSIOS
The Metropolitan of Anea, +THOMAS

The Ecumenical Patriarchate, November 13, 1924
Chancellor HERMAN, Metropolitan of Sardia

[PeterTheAleut]

^ How does the above relate to Eastern Catholic churches inside or outside Ukraine?  At first glance, this article appears to speak only of an autocephalous Orthodox presence in Poland and the precedent seen in this by the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.  But maybe I'm reading it wrong.

[Deacon Lance]

I agree!  However, the EP is also quite aware that not one canonical Orthodox Church in the world recognizes the UAOC or this Tomos no one seems th be able to produce.

Sorry, it doesn't it was in response to Orthodoc.

[lost]

Isn`t this similar to what happened in Transylvania?the Eastern Orthodox(?) there entering in communion with Rome and the pope because they considered this piety good, yet keeping their doctrines?

[SubdeaconDavid]

If this is true, there definintely needs to be an Ecumenical Council so that he can be deposed.

What else can one expect from an Orthodox Patriarch 'educated' at a Catholic institution in Rome?  He should have been deposed long ago.
.

The Ecumenical Patriarch does not appear to regard Latin or Eastern Catholics as heterodox.  He appears in his actions, words and attendance at numerous ecumenical events to accept the validity of the orders, sacraments and ministry of the Roman Catholic Church.  Why else does he attend so many Roman Catholic services, in which he exchanges the peace etc etc.  These actions imply recognition.  Of course he could have his fingers crossed behind his back, but to the faithful this looks like a sellout of Orthodoxy by the very patriarch who is trying to spread his brand of Orthodoxy throughout the world, including stepping into Russian Orthodox territory in Estonia, China and elsewhere. 

[Αριστοκλής]

Huh?
Didn't we debunk this three years ago?

[FrChris]

Huh?
Didn't we debunk this three years ago?

It is amazing how people will proclaim themselves experts on a topic and then ignore all evidence contradictory to their position.

[ialmisry]

Isn`t this similar to what happened in Transylvania?the Eastern Orthodox(?) there entering in communion with Rome and the pope because they considered this piety good, yet keeping their doctrines?

No.  The Unholy Germanic Emperor Leopold declared the Orthodox of Transylvania annexed to the Vatican, and tried to make good the policy of "exterminating the schismatic Vlachs."

[lost]

Isn`t this similar to what happened in Transylvania?the Eastern Orthodox(?) there entering in communion with Rome and the pope because they considered this piety good, yet keeping their doctrines?

No.  The Unholy Germanic Emperor Leopold declared the Orthodox of Transylvania annexed to the Vatican, and tried to make good the policy of "exterminating the schismatic Vlachs."

what are you saying that the Orthodox in Transylvania were brought in communion with the Pope against their will?

[stanley123]

Isn`t this similar to what happened in Transylvania?the Eastern Orthodox(?) there entering in communion with Rome and the pope because they considered this piety good, yet keeping their doctrines?

No.  The Unholy Germanic Emperor Leopold declared the Orthodox of Transylvania annexed to the Vatican, and tried to make good the policy of "exterminating the schismatic Vlachs."

After WWII, in Transylvania, under communism, Greek Catholic Churches were closed and Greek Catholics were absorbed into the Orthodox Church. Churches which were built by Greek Catholics became Orthodox overnight. Then, after communism collapsed in 1989, Greek Catholics were allowed to build their own Churches; however, many of the formerly Greek Catholic Church buildings remained with the ORthodox Church. Many of the Greek Catholics stropped going to the ORthodox Churches and began attending the Greek Catholic Churches. There was no one forcing them to attend the Greek Catholic Churches.

[lost]

I am from Transylvania.My grandparents were Greek Catholics or whatever it is called in english..  I always had a great religious feeling when I was at them, and the whole vilage was the role model of christianity... It is a special place even now... It is nothing wrong of being in communion with Rome and Orthodoxy at the same time... it is one of the most uplifting religious sentiments... I do not feel that sentiment in an Orthodox Church.I definately feel something is missing in comparision with that.Anyway the Church in there now is Orthodox.. My grandparents are dead..  But they still have icons with devotions to Jesus' and Mary's hearts in their home..  that house gives me a good sentiment every time i go there...   I remmeber a granny relative saying that people Orthodox and Catholics "pulled of a priest" one in one side one in the other... Anyway I thought it would be good to share this... there is no greater religious sentiment than that in my life... At the death of my grandmother, God give her rest, I saw the Holy Mother of God standing with her arms open bestowing light, like a sun shines through the window with power in the morning, and above her was green pasture and a tree..

U-word removed - MK.

[Orest]

I thought in Romania in the 1990's, a vote was taken in each parish and the local people decided if they wanted to be Orthodox or Catholic?

[lost]

I thought in Romania in the 1990's, a vote was taken in each parish and the local people decided if they wanted to be Orthodox or Catholic?

I dunno i was young then.A granny who was family may her reast peacefully spoke of the priest of the village being fought on by both Orthodox and Catholics ... Now that is cool... B-)

[Peter J]

Huh?
Didn't we debunk this three years ago?

Yes ... well, three-and-a-half now.

But was there ever a full explanation? I mean, I realize that it turned out that the EP didn't say what they said he said, but did anyone ever say why they said that he said what they said he said?

[Michał Kalina]

Ukrainian Catholic larping.

[podkarpatska]

Ukrainian Catholic larping.

I'm an old guy, does that mean 'fantisizing'?  Is it the same as Live Action Role Playing?

[Michał Kalina]

Yes.

[podkarpatska]

Yes.

Thanks! I agree and it is part of the odd 'omelette' cooking in Ukraine these days - religion stirred with nationalism and regional aspirations.

[Michał Kalina]

Ukrainian Catholics realise that they are generally ignored by the Orthodox Church and the Vatican. So from time to time they pop out with bizarre ideas like "dual unity" or "one Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" to make sure that they are not forgotten and they get the attention they need.

[podkarpatska]

Ukrainian Catholics realise that they are generally ignored by the Orthodox Church and the Vatican. So from time to time they pop out with bizarre ideas like "dual unity" or "one Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" to make sure that they are not forgotten and they get the attention they need.

They have political friends within the UOC-KP and the UOAC, politics makes strange bedfellows we say in English.

[Peter J]

Huh?
Didn't we debunk this three years ago?

Indeed, plus I just realized that we also revisited it just 2 months before you asked that question:

No it is not on the horizon.  Remember about 3 years ago the Eastern catholics claimed that the EP agreed to "dual communion".  A totally false claim.

Yes, I do recall that. But as I understand it, it was pretty innocent -- a matter of misunderstanding without intention to deceive.

Doesn't really pertain to my question anyhow.

In what way was it innocent?  A story was made up about the EP saying in an interview that he agreed to "dual communion" between Eastern catholics and Orthodox.  He did not say this.  There is no record of his saying this in print and the EP denied he ever said it.

My memory is a little rusty on the details, so I went looking to see what I said about it at the time:

06-20-2008 (the day after the Catholic World News article Orthodox leader suggests "dual unity" for Eastern Catholics)

Have any of you seen the text of the actual interview? I'd very much like to read it (even if only an automatic translation from German).

06-21-2008

Something I was just thinking: RISU and CWNews are well-known, reputable news sources. But I've never heard of this German ecumenical journal called "Cyril and Methodius".

I don't doubt that it exists, but is it a reputable journal? Is it possible that "Cyril and Methodius" printed a fictional interview? Seems unlikely, but I can't rule it out.

06-21-2008

You know ... I'm starting to think this will turn out to be pretty simple. Namely, that the EP was simply saying that, relatively speaking, we are closer to seeing a "dual communion" situation than we are to seeing full communion between Rome and Constantinople. (That doesn't in any way imply that the EP thinks "dual communion" can happen now.)

(I also posted a message on 06-22-2008, but just to say that the text of the interview didn't appear to be available online.)

(I'm sure you can tell that I don't like quoting my own posts. )

[Peter J]

On the other hand, it would appear that not everyone was interested in "debunking" it.

Is anyone here a follower of Fr. Z's "What does the prayer really say?" The reason I ask is that his thread on this topic, which is 48 posts long, contains no mention of the fact that the story turned out to be wrong!

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/06/bartholomew-i-to-eastern-catholics-return-to-orthodoxy-without-breaking-with-rome/

[Deacon Lance]

Ukrainian Catholics realise that they are generally ignored by the Orthodox Church and the Vatican. So from time to time they pop out with bizarre ideas like "dual unity" or "one Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" to make sure that they are not forgotten and they get the attention they need.

Except it was CWN not the UGCC that floated the article that caused this thread.  And I am quite sure the UGCC wishes the Russian Orthodox and Vatican would ignore them.

[podkarpatska]

Ukrainian Catholics realise that they are generally ignored by the Orthodox Church and the Vatican. So from time to time they pop out with bizarre ideas like "dual unity" or "one Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" to make sure that they are not forgotten and they get the attention they need.

Except it was CWN not the UGCC that floated the article that caused this thread.  And I am quite sure the UGCC wishes the Russian Orthodox and Vatican would ignore them.

Upon that statement, Fr. Deacon we surely can agree. I suspect that the UGCC has their own version of Teyve's famous prayer for the Tsar - one which includes the MP and the Holy Father - keep them both dear Lord, far away from us!

[Michał Kalina]

Ukrainian Catholics realise that they are generally ignored by the Orthodox Church and the Vatican. So from time to time they pop out with bizarre ideas like "dual unity" or "one Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" to make sure that they are not forgotten and they get the attention they need.

Except it was CWN not the UGCC that floated the article that caused this thread.

RISU, not CWN.

[Peter J]

Ukrainian Catholics realise that they are generally ignored by the Orthodox Church and the Vatican. So from time to time they pop out with bizarre ideas like "dual unity" or "one Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" to make sure that they are not forgotten and they get the attention they need.

Except it was CWN not the UGCC that floated the article that caused this thread.

RISU, not CWN.

You're both right, and you're both wrong. CWN based it's article on RISU

Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople welcomed the proposal in an interview with the magazine Cyril and Methodius, the RISU news service reports.

who based their article on the website kath.net

According to the Orthodox hierarch, the form of coexistence of the Byzantine Church and the Roman Church in the 1st century of Christianity should be used as a model of unity. This story was posted by KATH.net on 16 June 2008.

Neither CWN nor RISU had, at that point, read the interview in Cyril and Methodius.

[Tags:]

OrthodoxChristianity.net > General Forums > Christian News (Moderator: serb1389) > Topic: EP suggests "dual unity" for Eastern Catholics?