EP suggests "dual unity" for Eastern Catholics?

[Heracleides]

Please share those links!

Here are those links, taken from a CAF post of mine in the Fall of 2007 (shortly before the CAF pogrom against Orthodox), which was in turn drawn from a post of mine in 2006 on ByzCath (for which I was banned - ya gotta love that Catholic censorship  ):

The Catholic Communion is truly Universal in more than one sense of the word. Where else (certainly not amongst the Eastern Orthodox) can one have clerics and religious who are active members of two faiths, being both Catholic and Zen Buddhist?

Where else (aside from the Anglican Communion that is) can one find religious such as Sister Elaine MacInnes, OLM (Our Ladys Missionaries). This 81-year-old Roman Catholic sister is not only a nun but is also a Zen Buddhist Roshi, that is, a Zen Master.

See: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv:80/index.php?id=2,2123,0,0,1,0.

I found the last paragraph from the above interview with Sr. Elaine where she offers thanks for the lax oversight of Rome particularly enlightening: "MacInnes says she receives no flak from Catholic higher-ups for embracing another religion. Thank God they've kept silent," she says with a laugh.


Nor is Sister Elaine alone, as there are at least two other Roshi (Zen Master) sisters that share Sr. MacInnes bi-faith calling: Sr. Janet Richardson, CJSP and Sr. Rosalie McQuade, CJSP (Congregation of the Sisters of St. Joseph of Peace).

See: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv:80/index.php?id=22,2218,0,0,1,0, http://www.zenpeacemakers.org:80/about/bios/janet_bio.htm, http://www.zenpeacemakers.org:80/about/bios/Rosalie_bio.htm, and http://www.csjp.org:80/.

Sr. Janet, besides being a Zen Master, is also a speaker, having offered her thoughts at the 1999 Christ and Buddha: Weaving a Path for a New Millennium gathering at the RC Mercy Center retreat/conference center sponsored by the Sisters of Mercy in Burlingame, California. Sister spoke at two plenary sessions on Christ and Buddha: Language and Symbol of the traditions II and Today & Tomorrow: Weaving a Path for the New Millennium and led the Shikan Taza workshop.

See: http://www.conferencerecording.com:80/newevents/cab99.htm, and http://www.mercy-center.org:80/homepage.html.

Sr. Janet has been busy in other areas as well. Besides assisting Sr. Rosalie along her path to becoming a Roshi, she has also transmitted her Dharma to another sister, making her a Zen Sensei, that is Teacher, this person being Sr. Rose Mary Dougherty, SSND (School Sisters of Notre Dame), who is the Senior Fellow for Spiritual Guidance at the Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation, an ecumenical community founded by an Episcopal priest in Bethesda, Maryland.

See: http://www.zenpeacemakers.org:80/zps/family.htm, http://www.shalem.org:80/about/people/leadersfolder/doughertyrosemary.html, and http://www.shalem.org:80/about/.

On the male religious side, the Catholic Communion is similarly blessed. Witness Priest and Zen Master Fr. Robert Kennedy, SJ (Society of Jesus), who leads Christian Zen retreats where he opines that: "Zen reminds us that Christian contemplation is not a looking at Christ, or a following of Christ, but a transformation into Christ. The practice of Zen restores our participation in the world to direct experience, pure attending, pure consciousness." Heaven forbid that Christ actually be looked to or followed.

See: http://kennedyzen.tripod.com/.

At the above site, scroll down and view the photograph of Fr. Kennedy taken by Br. Brian Rooney, OC (Order of Carmelites). In the photograph, Fr. Kennedy, acting as Zen Roshi (Master), is seen initiating Fr. Kevin Hunt, OCSO (Order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance), a Trappist monk, to the ranks of Sensei (Zen Teacher).

See: http://www.monasticdialog.com:80/au.php?id=94, and http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_34_40/ai_n6127448.

Aside from Fr. Hunt, we also have following in the footsteps of Fr. Kennedy the Redemptorist Priest and Zen Sensei (Teacher) Fr. Greg Mayers, CSSR (Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer) who instructs on the Three Pillars of Zen: Teaching, Practice and Enlightenment.

See: http://www.catholiccitizens.org:80/platform/platformview.asp?c=5948.

Not to be forgotten is a European Jesuit, Fr. Niklaus Brantschen, SJ (Society of Jesus), who as a Roshi has passed on his Dharma in at least one other Catholic religious: Sr. Anna Gamma, StKW (Schwestern vom Katharinenwerk), a.k.a. Sister Zen.

See: http://www.zenpeacemakers.org:80/zps/family.htm, and http://www.spuren.ch:80/archiv/archiv_comments/170_0_45_0_C/, or http://translate.google.com:80/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.spuren.ch/archiv/archiv_comments/170_0_45_0_C/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSchwestern%2Bvom%2BKatharinenwerk%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG.

Then there is another Redemptorist Priest & Roshi, Fr. Patrick Hawk, CSSR (Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer) whom I have previously commented on, so will therefore only list a few links below.

See: http://www.io.com:80/~snewton/zen/7thunders.html, and http://home.comcast.net:80/~seventhunders/aboutthree.html.

Fr. Hawk in turn leads us to his own Roshi, another European, Fr. Willigis Jaeger, OSB (Order of St. Benedict). Aside from being both a Benedictine priest & monk, Fr. Jaeger is also one of the most well known of the Catholic-Zen Maters. This notoriety stems from the fact that in 2002 Cardinal Ratzinger censured Fr. Jaeger, ordering him to cease all public activities, including lectures, courses and publications. This order apparently does not carry much weight, because Fr. Jaeger has just this last August [2006] published: Mysticism for Modern Times: Conversations with Willigis Jaeger (Liguori Publications, 2006-08-21).

See: http://www.willigis-jaeger.de:80/eng/index.html, http://www.natcath.com:80/NCR_Online/archives/030102/030102i.htm, and http://www.willigis-jaeger.de:80/eng/books.html.

[LBK]

While not RC, there is a Seattle Episcopalian female priest, who is also a Moslem imam. In her words, she is "100% Christian and 100% Moslem. Go figure.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html

[AlexanderOfBergamo]

That doesn't seem so different from the situation during the period 500 AD - 1054 AD, when much of the Western Church was using the Filioque and East and West were in full communion.

Sorry but it's not the same. The Patriarch of Rome up to that time never claimed to have the power to impose dogmas to the entire Christendom.
If the Orthodox Church should decide (I hope God will avoid this) for a communion with Rome without any change in the Roman beliefs, then I'm leaving the Church. Papal infallibility can't be even tollerated, and being in communion with the Roman Patriarchate is an impossible compromise. If Rome should renounce to this heresy, I'll be the first one to encourage dialogue and even unity. But this doctrine contradicts the essence of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic and Orthodox Church!

About the problem of liturgical novelties such as dancing in the Church I witnessed them personally in the Catholic Parish I attended up to some months ago when I decided to abandon the Roman Church. If you want to dance or do other things like this to praise the Lord, do them OUTSIDE the Eucharist, which is the solemn Mystery of Christ's body and blood and must be respected. The fact is that the local authority (the bishop of Bergamo) almost certainly knows this as our Parish leader has been his personal assistant for years.
The Roman Church must clearly declair that these practices are contrary to the Gospel as they deviate the attention of the faithful from the Mystery of Salvation to those stupid dances and chants. If they don't, it means they tolerate them, and this is no more an abuse but a part of Roman forgeries.

In Christ,    Alex

[ytterbiumanalyst]

While not RC, there is a Seattle Episcopalian female priest, who is also a Moslem imam. In her words, she is "100% Christian and 100% Moslem. Go figure.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html

Her words: "I am both Muslim and Christian, just like I'm both an American of African descent and a woman. I'm 100 percent both."

No, that's not at all how it works. Ancestry and gender are two completely unrelated things, as evidenced by the millions who are both. This woman is delusional.

One cannot be both Catholic and Orthodox, just as someone cannot be Christian and Muslim. They are mutually exclusive. I would love for Catholics and Orthodox to be one, but as is it now, it cannot happen. Dual unity is a faerie tale.

[prodromas]

Her words: "I am both Muslim and Christian, just like I'm both an American of African descent and a woman. I'm 100 percent both."

No, that's not at all how it works. Ancestry and gender are two completely unrelated things, as evidenced by the millions who are both. This woman is delusional.

One cannot be both Catholic and Orthodox, just as someone cannot be Christian and Muslim. They are mutually exclusive. I would love for Catholics and Orthodox to be one, but as is it now, it cannot happen. Dual unity is a faerie tale.

[Tangent]
Just for a note I usually want to listen when someone makes a comment like this because obviously they have a reason to. I then proceeded to read an interview from her and the sentence that to paraphrase said "Jesus is very important he is an important prophet of God but he is not above man" that sentence ended it for me. If she does not believe in the full deity of Christ and only believes in his prophet ability then she can be a Muslim because the beliefs are not different but they are not christian. Also this is thank the lord not a majority opinion in the Episcopalian church.
[/Tangent]

[stanley123]

About the problem of liturgical novelties such as dancing in the Church I witnessed them personally in the Catholic Parish I attended up to some months ago when I decided to abandon the Roman Church. If you want to dance or do other things like this to praise the Lord, do them OUTSIDE the Eucharist, which is the solemn Mystery of Christ's body and blood and must be respected. The fact is that the local authority (the bishop of Bergamo) almost certainly knows this as our Parish leader has been his personal assistant for years.
The Roman Church must clearly declair that these practices are contrary to the Gospel as they deviate the attention of the faithful from the Mystery of Salvation to those stupid dances and chants. If they don't, it means they tolerate them, and this is no more an abuse but a part of Roman forgeries.

Yes, I am considerably bothered by these liturgical innovations in the RCC.  I don;t know why they have them. For example, why have the clown Mass? What is the message that they are trying to communicate with the clown Mass? A clown is a living jokester, is he not? So does that mean then that we are not supposed to take the R Catholic Mass seriously? Is that why they have a clown up there? To indicate that this whole thing is one big joke?

[SolEX01]

Given that His All Holiness will attend the 1,002^nd Anniversary of the Baptism of the Kievan Rus into Eastern Orthodoxy

Correction to Reply #63, the 1,020^th Anniversary of the Baptism of the Kievan Rus will be commemorated July 27 & 28, 2008.   

[ytterbiumanalyst]

[Tangent]
Just for a note I usually want to listen when someone makes a comment like this because obviously they have a reason to. I then proceeded to read an interview from her and the sentence that to paraphrase said "Jesus is very important he is an important prophet of God but he is not above man" that sentence ended it for me. If she does not believe in the full deity of Christ and only believes in his prophet ability then she can be a Muslim because the beliefs are not different but they are not christian. Also this is thank the lord not a majority opinion in the Episcopalian church.
[/Tangent]

Yes, I have noticed that usually people who say outrageous things like that are (1) trying to make a profound point, (2) delusional, or (3) looking for a reaction. Unfortunately, it is relatively certain that she has failed in point #1.

You're right; if she does not believe in the full deity of Christ, then she is not a Christian. She is a Muslim who attends church on Sundays. Good for her to go to church, but I'm afraid it may be assisting her in her delusion at this point, and perhaps it may be better for her to stop going altogether.

[PeterTheAleut]

Can someone please remind me of something?  What's the OP of this thread?

[Jetavan]

Here are those links, taken from a CAF post of mine....

The Catholic Communion is truly Universal in more than one sense of the word. Where else (certainly not amongst the Eastern Orthodox) can one have clerics and religious who are active members of two faiths, being both Catholic and Zen Buddhist?

And this is a problem because....? 

[_Seraphim_]

If the Orthodox Church should decide (I hope God will avoid this) for a communion with Rome without any change in the Roman beliefs...

I wouldn't worry about that ever happening. 

[_Seraphim_]

About the problem of liturgical novelties such as dancing in the Church I witnessed them personally in the Catholic Parish...
If you want to dance or do other things like this to praise the Lord, do them OUTSIDE the Eucharist...
The Roman Church must clearly declare that these practices are contrary to the Gospel as they deviate
the attention of the faithful from the Mystery of Salvation to those stupid dances and chants.

While I totally agree and understand what you're getting at, I wouldn't be too quick to say that dancing is inherently un-liturgical.
Our Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters have been dancing in their liturgies for nearly 2 thousand years.
(Definitely not a "novelty" for them )


some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tXEekIBMLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlL_EvFy3SI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjf8F8SYnZ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRsF8_sxDhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVYNZadRE90

even some with children:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nVHH1-IBEs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVOUxSUx8TI

[Ebor]

While not RC, there is a Seattle Episcopalian female priest, who is also a Moslem imam. In her words, she is "100% Christian and 100% Moslem. Go figure.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html

A correction and a point: First, this article is over a year old.  The lady in question, Ann Holmes Redding, is Not an "imam".  When this story broke, she was suspended from all liturgical functions for a year by the bishop of the diocese where she was canonically resident (Rhode Island).  Since the bishop is now at Lambeth, the suspension has been extended to September. 

Ebor

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Can someone please remind me of something?  What's the OP of this thread?

Much more along these lines:

One cannot be both Catholic and Orthodox, just as someone cannot be Christian and Muslim. They are mutually exclusive. I would love for Catholics and Orthodox to be one, but as is it now, it cannot happen. Dual unity is a faerie tale.

[PeterTheAleut]

Much more along these lines:

Thank you.  I had asked my question as an attempt to return the discussion to its original topic.

[Heracleides]

Just to clarify your 'correction' & 'point'....

A correction and a point: First, this article is over a year old. [Ok... Now onto your points.]  The lady in question, Ann Holmes Redding, is Not an "imam". [But is indeed an Episcopal Priestess.] When this story broke, she was suspended from all liturgical functions for a year by the bishop of the diocese where she was canonically resident (Rhode Island). [But is embraced by the Episcopal Bishop where she now resides.] Since the bishop is now at Lambeth, the suspension has been extended to September. [Which doubtless leaves this Episcopal Priestess more time to practice her muslim faith.]   

Ebor

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Thank you.  I had asked my question as an attempt to return the discussion to its original topic.

You're welcome. I understood, and had attempted the same myself last week.

Sorry but it's not the same. The Patriarch of Rome up to that time never claimed to have the power to impose dogmas to the entire Christendom.
If the Orthodox Church should decide (I hope God will avoid this) for a communion with Rome without any change in the Roman beliefs, then I'm leaving the Church. Papal infallibility can't be even tollerated, and being in communion with the Roman Patriarchate is an impossible compromise. If Rome should renounce to this heresy, I'll be the first one to encourage dialogue and even unity. But this doctrine contradicts the essence of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic and Orthodox Church!

That is exactly the point. By accepting dual unity, we accept either that Christ has two bodies, or that His One Body has been split in two. Either is heretical. If the EP has indeed said what was mentioned in the OP and in this article, that Eastern Catholics can, without any change in belief from Catholics or Orthodox, be in communion with both, then he is guilty of heresy. It may be, though, that the article is giving us that slant, but the EP actually meant something completely different.

In cases like this, it would be useful to know the EP's exact words. Unfortunately with the sources provided, we cannot. I wonder if a transcript of the meeting is available to the general public?

[Αριστοκλής]

Did you miss this?
http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=952&tla=en

PRESS RELEASE

With respect to the recently published articles reporting that allegedly His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew believes that it is possible for the Greek Catholics (Uniates) to have a “double union”, in other words, full communion with Rome as well as with Constantinople, the Ecumenical Patriarchate refutes this inaccurate statement and affirms it was never made.  The Ecumenical Patriarchate repeats its position that full union in faith is a prerequisite for sacramental communion.

At the Patriarchate, the 5th of July 2008
From the Chief Secretariat of the Holy Synod

[AlexanderOfBergamo]

While I totally agree and understand what you're getting at, I wouldn't be too quick to say that dancing is inherently un-liturgical.
Our Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters have been dancing in their liturgies for nearly 2 thousand years.
(Definitely not a "novelty" for them )

That's definitely not the same... I can witness it. All the songs and dances and similar stuff in RC parishes have such a strong Protestant look...
Not to forget that during the homily many priests allow little theatrical representations acted by the children who go at Sunday School, as if they should "teach their parents" some ethical truth (usually "do charity" or "repent"). While as a child I appreciated them, I do agree with those who are disgusted by these things.

About the Eritrean and Ethiopian practices, they must be referred to their historical and spiritual background; being the heirs of the court traditions of the Jews (as Judaism was established through the Queen of Sheba), they tend to use their way to express the faith in God. This also includes traditional chants and dances. I think this is a beautiful tradition because it's not Gospel Music... it's a liturgical, and profoundly sacred music both in text and sound.

In Christ,    Alex

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Did you miss this?
http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=952&tla=en

This is a press release, yes; but it's still not a transcript of his exact words. If you can find me that, I would be quite glad to read it; I myself have not found one. And it is important if we are to understand this situation that we know exactly what was said. "He said, she said" is going to get us nowhere.

[arimethea]

This is a press release, yes; but it's still not a transcript of his exact words. If you can find me that, I would be quite glad to read it; I myself have not found one. And it is important if we are to understand this situation that we know exactly what was said. "He said, she said" is going to get us nowhere.

If he never said it,  as the press release claims, then it will be hard to see a transcript of nothing.

[Orthodoc]

http://www.iht.com/bin/printfriendly.php?id=14830509

Moscow, Kiev both claim victory in Ukraine church dispute

The Associated Press
Monday, July 28, 2008

KIEV, Ukraine: Moscow and Kiev both are claiming victory in a dispute
creating an independent Ukrainian Orthodox church — which Russia
fiercely opposes — after a weekend visit by the spiritual leader of
the world's Orthodox Christians.

Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko is hoping to win recognition of
the local church's independence from Moscow as part of his drive to
shed centuries-long Russian influence. The Russian Orthodox Church
resists losing control over this predominantly Orthodox country of 46
million.

Yushchenko said on his Web site that the spiritual leader of the
world's Orthodox believers has voiced support for the creation of a
local church, independent of the powerful Russian Orthodox Church.

"I am glad that the Patriarch is backing the aspiration of the
Ukrainian people to have its own national local church," Yushchenko
said in a statement. "Such aspirations are in line to all the
principles of a national, state and of course church life."

Yushchenko made the statement Sunday at the end of a three-day visit
by Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, who came to
Kiev to attend massive celebrations marking the 1020 anniversary of
Ukraine's and Russia's conversion to Christianity.

But Mikhail Prokopenko, a spokesman for the Moscow-based Russian
church, disputed Yushchenko's claim. He told The Associated Press on
Monday that a meeting between Russian Patriarch Alexy II and
Bartholomew confirmed that Constantinople recognizes Moscow's
supremacy over the Ukrainian church.

Prokopenko also said that Bartholomew also will not recognize a
breakaway church in Ukraine that has proclaimed its independence and
whose leader has been excommunicated by Alexy.

Bartholomew's office declined immediate comment.

Experts say the Ukrainian church likely will get independence
eventually, like churches in other countries will sizable Orthodox
populations. But an abrupt decision on this could lead to a deep split
between Constantinople and the Russian church, the biggest Orthodox
church in the world, which claims 95 million believers out of the
world's 250 million Orthodox.

===========

Orthodoc

[PeterTheAleut]

^  Great article, but it addresses the issue of the intra-Orthodox schism in Ukraine, whereas the OP of this thread is about relations between the Orthodox and the Eastern Rite Catholics in Ukraine.

[Αριστοκλής]

^  Great article, but it addresses the issue of the intra-Orthodox schism in Ukraine, whereas the OP of this thread is about relations between the Orthodox and the Eastern Rite Catholics in Ukraine.

True, but the UGCC does figure into the puzzle, at least from the Ukie view, I think.

[Orest]

I think this article posted below shows what the Ukrainian Catholic Church really thinks of "unity": loyalty to Rome and joining them.

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;24026/

Lviv (RISU) — On 10 August 2008, Fr. Mykhailo Romaniuk, priest of the village of Podusiv, officially made a confession of faith and priestly promises for faithfulness to the Pope of Rome, the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC), and the UGCC Eparchy of Stryi, in western Ukraine’s Lviv Region. Fr. Romaniuk and his faithful, previously of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC), thus joined the UGCC.

The process for the uniting of the two religious communities in Podusiv, Peremyshliany District, was started in 2004 by UGCC Bishop Yulian Gbur.

After making his promises, Fr. Romaniuk joined in concelebrating Liturgy with Bishop Gbur.

The interdenominational reconciliation occurred after a long process of discussions and meetings on the eparchial, regional, and district levels. The Stryi Eparchy initiated discussion of the theme of overcoming interdenominational problems in the Peremyshliany District. On 4 June representatives of the eparchy, the district civil authorities and the priests from Podusiv discussed questions of joint services involving Greek Catholics and Orthodox of the UAOC. On 9 August 2008 at a joint meeting of the two religious communities the need for religious unity in the village was absolutely confirmed. By liquidating the religious community of the UAOC and registering the single community of the UGCC the historical unity which existed until 1946 was renewed.

According to Fr. Pavlo Khud, head of the Press Service of the Stryi Eparchy of the UGCC, the faithful are satisfied with this resolution of the matter, inasmuch as interdenominational disputes in the village ended almost 20 years ago. Their example has started a process of initiatives for uniting which for a long time have been ripening in other parishes of the Stryi Eparchy.

Looks like "overcoming interdenominational problems" means to abandon Orthodoxy and capitulate to Rome.  This is why Ukrainians in other parts of Ukraine have never ever trusted Galicians.  Their ultimate aim is not "ecumenism" or even "double unity" but to destroy the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and make Ukraine Catholic.

[Deacon Lance]

Wow, one UAOC parish goes Catholic.  Sound the alarms.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Dyachok]

"This is why Ukrainians in other parts of Ukraine have never ever trusted Galicians."

This is simply an inflammatory statement - Patriarch Lubomyr and both the UOC-KP and the UAOC are on much better mutual terms than either with the MP.  That is well known both inside and outside Ukraine.  First of all "Rome" had nothing to do with it - they had apparently approached +Yulian some time ago to begin this process. 

Unlike 1946 no one kicked down doors and forced this congregation to join another - much less a minority Church compared to either the UOC-KP or the MP.  You may not like their decision but do not resort to blatant racism because you don't like it.
FDRLB

[username!]

"This is why Ukrainians in other parts of Ukraine have never ever trusted Galicians."

This is simply an inflammatory statement - Patriarch Lubomyr and both the UOC-KP and the UAOC are on much better mutual terms than either with the MP.  That is well known both inside and outside Ukraine.  First of all "Rome" had nothing to do with it - they had apparently approached +Yulian some time ago to begin this process. 

Unlike 1946 no one kicked down doors and forced this congregation to join another - much less a minority Church compared to either the UOC-KP or the MP.  You may not like their decision but do not resort to blatant racism because you don't like it.
FDRLB

Welcome to the forum FDRLB   Good to have you here!! -username! section moderator

[Heracleides]

I think this article posted below shows what the Ukrainian Catholic Church really thinks of "unity": loyalty to Rome and joining them.

Looks like "overcoming interdenominational problems" means to abandon Orthodoxy and capitulate to Rome.  This is why Ukrainians in other parts of Ukraine have never ever trusted Galicians.  Their ultimate aim is not "ecumenism" or even "double unity" but to destroy the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and make Ukraine Catholic.

You've hit the nail on the head, which is why you evoked the Catholic angst in the replies above. 

[Heracleides]

Wow, one UAOC parish goes Catholic.  Sound the alarms.

Fr. Deacon Lance

From a Byzcath thread on the same topic Fr. Dn. Lance baits a hook by saying:

Orest,

Please share you thoughts here, not just oc.net.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Orest - If I didn't know better, I'd say that the good Catholic Deacon was attempting to have you booted from Byzcath. 

[Orthodoc]

Comment:  This is simply an inflammatory statement - Patriarch Lubomyr and both the UOC-KP and the UAOC are on much better mutual terms than either with the MP.  That is well known both inside and outside Ukraine.  First of all "Rome" had nothing to do with it - they had apparently approached +Yulian some time ago to begin this process. 


Reply:  If this is indeed true, then it only proves that both Rome & UGCC do not abide by the canons of the first seven ecumenical councils they claim they share with us.  Why?  Because they are willing to discard those canons by recognizing two noncanonical Orthodox jurisdictions that are headed by self proclaimed or defrocked bishops.  Wonder what they would say if we who are canonical Orthodox suddenly decide to be on 'better mutual terms' with the self proclaimed Pope Michael of the Vatican Church In Exile  [http://popemichael.homestead.com/] or SSPX for that  matter.

Orthodoc
   

[Deacon Lance]

From a Byzcath thread on the same topic Fr. Dn. Lance baits a hook by saying:

Orest - If I didn't know better, I'd say that the good Catholic Deacon was attempting to have you booted from Byzcath. 

The Admins have sole discretion on who gets banned and for what.  I just don't think it is honorable to take a post from byzcath run over here with it and make a post like Orest made.  If he is so proud of his post why didn't he make it over there?

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Deacon Lance]

Reply:  If this is indeed true, then it only proves that both Rome & UGCC do not abide by the canons of the first seven ecumenical councils they claim they share with us.  Why?  Because they are willing to discard those canons by recognizing two noncanonical Orthodox jurisdictions that are headed by self proclaimed or defrocked bishops.  Wonder what they would say if we who are canonical Orthodox suddenly decide to be on 'better mutual terms' with the self proclaimed Pope Michael of the Vatican Church In Exile  [http://popemichael.homestead.com/] or SSPX for that  matter.

Orthodoc

Official recognition and cooperation are two different things.  I also don't think it fair to lump the UAOC and KP together.  The Ecumenical Patriarch granted autocephaly to the UAOC and charged the Metropolitan of Warsaw to oversee this, which is why the UOC in the US and Canada are under the EP's Omofor.  That Russia and the MP chose to ignore this and liquidate the UAOC as they did the UGCC is not a glowing mark on their record.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Orthodoc]

Official recognition and cooperation are two different things.  I also don't think it fair to lump the UAOC and KP together.  The Ecumenical Patriarch granted autocephaly to the UAOC and charged the Metropolitan of Warsaw to oversee this, which is why the UOC in the US and Canada are under the EP's Omofor.   That Russia and the MP chose to ignore this and liquidate the UAOC as they did the UGCC is not a glowing mark on their record.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Can you provide a copy of the Tomos where the EP granted autocephally to the UAOC?  Seems if this were indeed the case, he would have mentioned it a few weeks ago while visiting ukraine by stating he supports the Tomos of autocephally issued by one of his predessors rather than recognizing the canonical order of the UOC-MP.

Orthodoc

[Deacon Lance]

Orthodoc,

With the Soviet invasion this tomos came to naught and the EP accepted the UAOC's reintergration into the MP.  The UAOC's situation is not unlike that of the Estonian Orthodox Church, which also received its tomos in 1923, a year before the UAOC did.  The EP accepted the Estonian Church's reintergration into the MP, until Estonia was free and renewed the tomos.  I believe this is what the UAOC wants from the EP, but of course the EP is wary of doing this. 

Orthodox Wiki documents the Ukrainian tomos, of course one could dispute whether the EP had the right to grant the tomos at all.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ukrainian_Autocephalous_Orthodox_Church

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Αριστοκλής]

Orthodoxwiki 'documentation' w/o documents?

[Orthodoc]

Orthodoxwiki 'documentation' w/o documents?

You got it!   Fr Deacon Lance seems to be basing his replies on what he reads on the UAOC website.  It's funny when you click on the part in blue that talks about this so called Tomos of autocephally or the Ecumenical Patriarch that supposedly granted it, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING COMES UP TO VALIDATE IT!

So we can't always believe what we read or statements made on the website of any wayward religious organization be they Orthodox Catholic or Roman Catholic.  Otherwise we would all be here defending the statements made by Pope Michael against the present Pope who resides in the Vatican.

Orthodoc

[Heracleides]

You got it!   Fr Deacon Lance seems to be basing his replies on what he reads on the UAOC website.  It's funny when you click on the part in blue that talks about this so called Tomos of autocephally or the Ecumenical Patriarch that supposedly granted it, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING COMES UP TO VALIDATE IT!

So we can't always believe what we read or statements made on the website of any wayward religious organization be they Orthodox Catholic or Roman Catholic.  Otherwise we would all be here defending the statements made by Pope Michael against the present Pope who resides in the Vatican.

Orthodoc

Umm.. don't you mean the present anti-Pope who resides in the Vatican?   

[Αριστοκλής]

Umm.. don't you mean the present anti-Pope who resides in the Vatican?   

Chuckle...

[Deacon Lance]

Last time I checked Orthodox Wiki wasn't the UAOC's  site.  I don't have documentation of the Estonians tomos either are you going to deny it too. If you don't believe me ask a UOC-USA member/cleric.  Many of their people descend from the UAOC.  Archbishop Vsevolod of eternal memory was of this lineage.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Orthodoc]

Last time I checked Orthodox Wiki wasn't the UAOC's  site.  I don't have documentation of the Estonians tomos either are you going to deny it too. If you don't believe me ask a UOC-USA member/cleric.  Many of their people descend from the UAOC.  Archbishop Vsevolod of eternal memory was of this lineage.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Fr Deacon:

The fact that even the EP himself no longer supports or upholds this so called Tomos (which no one can find) in itself invalidates the claims of the UAOC to be canonical.  Not one canonical Orthodox Catholic Church in the world supports or recognizes them. If they are in fact canonical and recognized bt the EP then why are did so many of the UAOC members here in North America chose to leave the UAOC  and go under the EP as you yourself state?  Could it have been so that they would now fall within canonical Orhodoxy rather than be considered noncanonical? 

Orthodoc

[lubeltri]

Wonder what they would say if we who are canonical Orthodox suddenly decide to be on 'better mutual terms' with the self proclaimed Pope Michael of the Vatican Church In Exile  [http://popemichael.homestead.com/] or SSPX for that  matter.   

If I were you, I wouldn't try that with them. They'll probably immediately demand you convert and repent of your "heresy" and schism, and then, following your refusal, solemnly banish you to the outer darkness. 

[Deacon Lance]

Fr Deacon:

The fact that even the EP himself no longer supports or upholds this so called Tomos (which no one can find) in itself invalidates the claims of the UAOC to be canonical.  Not one canonical Orthodox Catholic Church in the world supports or recognizes them. If they are in fact canonical and recognized bt the EP then why are did so many of the UAOC members here in North America chose to leave the UAOC  and go under the EP as you yourself state?  Could it have been so that they would now fall within canonical Orhodoxy rather than be considered noncanonical? 

Orthodoc

Orthodoc,

Choose to leave? Their mother church was liquidated by the Soviets what choice did they have?  Even at that in the US and Canada their were two Ukrainian jurisdictions a piece.  One composed of former Greek Catholics who left Rome  when celibacy was enforced, and were the larger group, and those who were UAOC.  Going under the EP was about uniting the Ukrainian jurisdictions not rejecting the UAOC.  Archbishop Vsevolod succeded Patriarch Mystyslav.  Do you think he thought him uncanonical?  Lack of formal recognition for the UAOC is all about politics with the MP.  The EP and the UO Churches of Canada and the USA under him can't formally recognize the UAOC or the MP will break with the EP, causing problems for all of Orthodoxy.

Fr. Deacon Lance 

[Orthodoc]

Orthodoc,

Choose to leave? Their mother church was liquidated by the Soviets what choice did they have?  Even at that in the US and Canada their were two Ukrainian jurisdictions a piece.  One composed of former Greek Catholics who left Rome  when celibacy was enforced, and were the larger group, and those who were UAOC.  Going under the EP was about uniting the Ukrainian jurisdictions not rejecting the UAOC.  Archbishop Vsevolod succeded Patriarch Mystyslav.  Do you think he thought him uncanonical? (1) Lack of formal recognition for the UAOC is all about politics with the MP.  (2) The EP and the UO Churches of Canada and the USA under him can't formally recognize the UAOC or the MP will break with the EP, causing problems for all of Orthodoxy.Fr. Deacon Lance 

(1)  It's part politics but the other part is caused by the fact that the EP, partly because of his insecurities regarding his patriarchate in Istanbul (Constantinople), and the future of that patriarchate due to Turkish determination to wipe it out, has chosen to interfere in the administrative  functions of other patriarchates to boost his power and authority.

(2)  If what you say is true than why would the EP chose to honor the so called Tomos regarding the Estonian Church (which wasn't his to give) and not honor the so called Tomos given to the Ukrainians all around the same time and for the same reasons?  Why would he back one but not the other?  If the EP was afraid of causing disunity amongst the Orthodox patriarchates then why has he tried to take over Russian Orthodox Churches in western Europe (Example:  The RO Cathedral in Prague which was thrown out of court). Or play church politics with the MP regarding the Estonian Church he claims authority over?  Or why is he causing problems between himself and both the Jerusalem patriarchate, and the Antionchian patriatchate?  His actions seem to indicate that he has no worries regarding Orthodox unity when it comes to his quest for power and security.

Orthodoc

[Deacon Lance]

Orthodoc,

My opinion, the EP knows Ukraine will be the straw that broke the camels back.  The MP has tolerated Estonia, Western Europe, and America but not what it considers its backyard, Ukraine.

Fr. Deacon Lance

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