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Author Topic: EP suggests "dual unity" for Eastern Catholics?  (Read 24177 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2008, 09:54:03 PM »

As an Eastern Catholic I am for unity with the Orthodox, but only if all the Orthodox Churches agree.  That said, I fear that unilateral action by the Ecumenical Patriarch could cause a schism among the Orthodox Churches, and that would benefit no one.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying you have no problem with simultaneously being in communion with two groups with contradictory teachings?  Would such an arrangement require the Eastern Latins to believe anything?
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« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2008, 09:57:10 PM »

The Eastern Catholic Churches should be completely de-Latinized and should accept Holy Orthodoxy in its entirety.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 09:57:28 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2008, 09:59:45 PM »

The Eastern Catholic Churches should be completely de-Latinized and should accept Holy Orthodoxy in its entirety.

Are you saying that the Eastern Latins should leave communion with Rome and return to Orthodoxy or are you saying that they should return their liturgical practices to what they were while still remaining in communion with Rome?
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« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2008, 10:06:28 PM »

De-Latinization is not simply about returning to earlier liturgical practices, but is also about the restoration of the doctrinal and spiritual tradition that is intimately bound up with the proper worship of the tri-hypostatic God.  Thus, I support the complete de-Latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches, which would then reunite with their mother Churches in Holy Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2008, 10:07:20 PM »

Quote
the German Cardinal spoke of the need for there to be liturgical reforms in the East, as, he perceived the Liturgy to be overly lengthy, as well as the need for the East to have an Enlightenment similar to the West, to solve the problems of superstition in Eastern Christendom.

It is to laugh, it is to cry. Either way, preposterous.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 10:08:13 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2008, 10:08:57 PM »

De-Latinization is not simply about returning to earlier liturgical practices, but is also about the restoration of the doctrinal and spiritual tradition that is intimately bound up with the proper worship of the tri-hypostatic God.  Thus, I support the complete de-Latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches, which would then reunite with their mother Churches in Holy Orthodoxy.

You're dodging the question.  Do you want to be in communion with Rome or do you want to be Orthodox?  Pick one.
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« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2008, 10:11:13 PM »

Are you saying that the Eastern Latins should leave communion with Rome . . .
No, that's not what I am saying.  The restoration of communion between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox Churches would make possible the reunification of the Eastern Catholic Churches with their proper mother Churches.
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« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2008, 10:12:37 PM »

You're dodging the question.  Do you want to be in communion with Rome or do you want to be Orthodox?  Pick one.
No, I am not dodging the question; instead, I am simply slow at responding due to the fact that I use Dragon Naturally Speaking in order to type.
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« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2008, 10:15:04 PM »

No, I am not dodging the question; instead, I am simply slow at responding due to the fact that I use Dragon Naturally Speaking in order to type.

Oh, this ought to be good.  Please explain just how your choice of software has anything to do with whether you answer questions put to you or not.
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« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2008, 10:18:13 PM »

Oh, this ought to be good.  Please explain just how your choice of software has anything to do with whether you answer questions put to you or not.
I answered your question in the post right above the one in which I mentioned the software that I use.  It took a while to compose it, my apologies.

I am for communion with both Rome and Orthodoxy.  That said, my reason for posting in this thread in the first place, was that I believe that the proposal of the Ecumenical Patriarch, if he really has proposed this course of action, cannot be a unilateral decision on his part, because if it is it could divide the Eastern Orthodox Churches and that benefits no one.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 10:18:49 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2008, 10:29:01 PM »

if he really has proposed this course of action
He didn't. The Catholic spin doctors at CWN said:
"The Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople has responded favorably to a suggestion by the head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church for a system of "dual unity".
In other words, the Ukrainian Catholic Archbishop proposed it. And according to CWN, His All-Holiness "responded favourably"- whatever that means.........and interestingly, the good people at CWN don't ever tell us what His All-Holiness actually said to make them come to this conclusion. This is earth shattering news, surely they'd want to quote his exact words for the sound byte? Wink
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« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2008, 08:48:38 PM »

Oxgeorge's comments should be taken seriously. The Patriarchate of Antioch (the most Catholic friendly of all patriarchates) was asked by the Melkites (who are the most Orthodox of catholics) if they could be "dual unified" in the 1990's and the answer was.......NO. The Ecumenical patriachate is being "open" simply to keep on the radar screen of Western Christians who may influence the Turks who want him out of Istanbul.

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« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2008, 11:15:07 AM »

I am wondering if this news release about "double unity" is just another "diplomatic move"
as mentioned in this article here.

03 June 2008, 15:10
Statements on upcoming meeting between pope, patriarch may be
diplomatic move

Moscow, June 3, Interfax - The Moscow Patriarchate doesn't rule out
that the statement made by Cardinal Walter Kasper saying that Pope
Benedict XVI and Patriarch Alexy II will meet in the nearest future
may be a diplomatic move by the Vatican.

Kasper, who heads the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian
Unity, recently said the pope and the Russian patriarch may meet in
the near future.

"Such commentaries by one of the parties are sometimes a diplomatic
move intended to put certain soft pressure on the negotiating
parties. It's like they are saying 'We are glad, we are looking
forward [to a meeting], why are you avoiding us?'" Deacon Andrey
Kurayev, a professor at the Moscow Theological Academy, told Interfax-
Religion on Tuesday.

Kurayev said he did not participant in the negotiations between
Kasper and the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church and therefore
cannot say which precisely nuances of the dialogue gave the cardinal
a reason for optimistic comments.

At the same time, Kurayev said he is hoping tat "some progress has
been achieved in our relationship, and it is connected with the fact
that the current pope, unlike his predecessor, is not personally
responsible for the tragedies in the history of Orthodoxy in Western
Ukraine in the early 1990s, when Greek Catholics literally ravaged
three Orthodox dioceses."
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=4753


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« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2008, 11:14:27 PM »

The Ecumenical Patriarch has denied he ever said he supports "Double Unity":
Quote
PRESS RELEASE

With respect to the recently published articles reporting that allegedly His All
Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew believes that it is possible for the
Greek Catholics (Uniates) to have a “double union”, in other words, full
communion with Rome as well as with Constantinople, the Ecumenical Patriarchate
refutes this inaccurate statement and affirms it was never made. The Ecumenical
Patriarchate repeats its position that full union in faith is a prerequisite for
sacramental communion.

At the Patriarchate, the 5th of July 2008
From the Chief Secretariat of the Holy Synod
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxNews/message/9549

I read this article recently about technology problems in the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Perhaps the lack of technological savy expalins why it took so long for the EP to issue his denial.

Quote
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/washington/olives...
ntries/2008/06/23/emailing_new_rome.html
E-mailing New Rome
By Robert W. Gee | Monday, June 23, 2008, 10:18 AM
When I walked through the anteroom and into the office of the spiritual leader of 300 million Orthodox Christians, it was as I had imagined: richly colored Persian carpets, walls paneled with dark wood and bookcases filled with leather-bound volumes. From a desk cluttered with stacks of papers at the far end of the room, he walked toward me and I froze.
What was it I was supposed to call him?
"Hello, His Holiness. - Your Holiness," I said.
He smiled, extended his hand and gave me a hearty shake. He first offered coffee, which I accepted. Turkish or Espresso?
For a brief moment, I considered which might be preferable in this beleaguered redoubt of Greek Christianity in the capital of Muslim Turkey. Perhaps His Holiness eschews anything called Turkish. Espresso, I said. In truth, that's what I wanted. I was there last week for a story on Coca Cola's new CEO who is Turkish and Muslim but struck up a friendship with His Holiness.
...He gave me his new book, "Encountering The Mystery; Understanding Orthodox Christianity
Today." I asked him to inscribe it, which he did. As I left, he offered me a chocolate and asked if I could send him a copy of my article once it is published. "Of course," I told him, and suggested he might prefer I e-mail it. He turned toward a bookcase. "One moment," he said, and flipped through a book, finally stopping at a page with a Web site address. Pointing to it, he asked, "Is this the e-mail address?" No, that's not the one, I said.
There was one monk who knew the e-mail address, he told me, and on my way out, we would see if he was in his room. He was not. "I don't know much about technology," he explained, a little embarrassed.
I Googled His Holiness and found his e-mail address, so I'll e-mail the article first and wait for a response.
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« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2008, 11:23:48 PM »

^ Note that press release was issued in English & Cyrillic.
Source for above Article from Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 11:24:41 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2008, 11:25:41 PM »

For Reply #58, can the hyperlink be fixed?  Thank You.   Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2008, 11:28:24 PM »

Sorry about that.  Here is the source for the press release about the Ecumenical Patriarch refuting "Double Unity" for Eastern-rite catholics:
http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=952&tla=en

Please note it is the web page of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the press release is issued by the Chief Secretariat of the Holy Synod.

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« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2008, 12:23:36 AM »

I do believe some people owe His All-Holiness an apology.
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« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2008, 12:32:48 AM »

I do believe some people owe His All-Holiness an apology.

Given that His All Holiness will attend the 1,002nd Anniversary of the Baptism of the Kievan Rus into Eastern Orthodoxy, I apologize for raising the spectre of "back-door" Unity in past replies on this thread.   Embarrassed 

I will note that Ukrainian Greek Catholics will want (which they deserve) equal recognition from their Hierarchs because the Historical Baptism of the Kievan Rus occurred Pre-Schism and Pre 1453.   Undecided

Edited for content and clarity
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« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2008, 01:06:22 AM »

I think most news of a religious nature gets "dumbed down" for popular consumption. So I too would caution anyone from having an embollism over this "news."

Face it, most Christians, of any communion, have very little patience or acumen for careful theological reasoning and debate, let alone their secular counterparts. So whether the original Catholic source was "spinning" the report, as some have suggested, or just reducing it to sound bite reporting for popular consumption, who is to say?

I don't think anything in our Orthodox faith says anything about dialogue and conversing with other Christians. The EP does this and gets alot of negative publicity for it. People speculate all over the place about his motives.

If anything, broadening his base of Christian support through dialogue with Christian communions in the EU (Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed) bolsters his position in his home country which is Muslim. So it is smart for him to do so. He also needs to balance the influence of the MP for pastoral and political reasons so that he remains relevant in the EU.

As long as he is seen as respected and in the news in the EU and a counterweight to the MP in his home country of Turkey, the govt. can't just run roughshod over him.

One earlier post seemed to dismiss the EP as a rube. If my estimation is correct, he is quite shrewd and to be admired.

P.S. I am not suggesting these are the ONLY reasons he does what he does. And my interpretation in no way denies the spirituality of his ministry.

P.P.S. I am OCA and not under the EP.



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« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2008, 07:59:36 AM »

As an Orthodox I find it very difficult to believe a double unity is possible. Why? Because I don't understand how can be with Rome and with Constantinople when they follow two different kinds of theology and ecclesiology which can't be solved in one common position. Obviously the obstacles are two: the Filioque clause and Papal Infallibility, one theological and one ecclesiological.
I think it's far easier for the Oriental Church to be united with the Ecumenical Patriarchate (recent Joint Declarations show how their christology shouldn't be called  non-Chalcedonian but pre-Chalcedonian); after a common definition of Christ's nature be formulated, the acceptance of the Canons of the Councils will be required and unity could be sealed.
On the contrary, Eastern Catholic Churches (or "Uniates", as somebody called them) share the same beliefs of Rome which are contrary to Orthodox theology. It doesn't matter if they say or not the expression "and from the Son" in the Creed, but they ALLOW FOR IT to be added by their brothers of the Latin Church; It doesn't matter if they keep all of the Sacraments (or Mysteries) exactly like the Orthodox, but because of their recognition of the Pope as vicar of Christ they possess - from an Orthodox point of view - a heterodox position on ecclesiology.
I don't know if it's the same in America, but in Italy we say:
"L'amico del mio amico è mio amico" (my friend's friend is my friend)
and if we're friends (or brothers) with the Eastern Catholic Churches we should also be friends (or brothers) with the Latin Church.
Live the Church of Rome, and the Orthodox doors will be open for you!

In Christ,    Alex
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« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2008, 09:15:05 AM »

I do believe some people owe His All-Holiness an apology.

So it would seem...but he used the U-word!  Wink  teehee
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« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2008, 09:31:15 PM »

As an Orthodox I find it very difficult to believe a double unity is possible. Why? Because I don't understand how can be with Rome and with Constantinople when they follow two different kinds of theology and ecclesiology which can't be solved in one common position. Obviously the obstacles are two: the Filioque clause and Papal Infallibility, one theological and one ecclesiological.
I think it's far easier for the Oriental Church to be united with the Ecumenical Patriarchate (recent Joint Declarations show how their christology shouldn't be called  non-Chalcedonian but pre-Chalcedonian); after a common definition of Christ's nature be formulated, the acceptance of the Canons of the Councils will be required and unity could be sealed.
On the contrary, Eastern Catholic Churches (or "Uniates", as somebody called them) share the same beliefs of Rome which are contrary to Orthodox theology. It doesn't matter if they say or not the expression "and from the Son" in the Creed, but they ALLOW FOR IT to be added by their brothers of the Latin Church; It doesn't matter if they keep all of the Sacraments (or Mysteries) exactly like the Orthodox, but because of their recognition of the Pope as vicar of Christ they possess - from an Orthodox point of view - a heterodox position on ecclesiology.
I don't know if it's the same in America, but in Italy we say:
"L'amico del mio amico è mio amico" (my friend's friend is my friend)
and if we're friends (or brothers) with the Eastern Catholic Churches we should also be friends (or brothers) with the Latin Church.
Live the Church of Rome, and the Orthodox doors will be open for you!

In Christ,    Alex

Brother you do know that we Orthodox don't seperate our ecclesiology from our theology and either do the Catholics. Its a bigger situation than "filouque" and "papal infallibility". There are some "basic" philosophical  ideas that when taken to there logical extreme cause an immense difference in the way we view everything. For instance some believe that the filoque clause actually leads theologically to a hierarchy akin to the Roman Catholic church.
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« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2008, 04:47:42 PM »


So it would seem...but he used the U-word!  Wink  teehee

Unity?  Cheesy
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« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2008, 08:49:41 AM »

Unity?  Cheesy

That one, too.  Wink
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« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2008, 07:55:12 PM »

De-Latinization is not simply about returning to earlier liturgical practices, but is also about the restoration of the doctrinal and spiritual tradition that is intimately bound up with the proper worship of the tri-hypostatic God.  Thus, I support the complete de-Latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches, which would then reunite with their mother Churches in Holy Orthodoxy.
Would you change the Latin Churces in anyway?
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« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2008, 11:41:53 PM »

Would you change the Latin Churces in anyway?
Personally, i would change a few things in the Latin Church. for example, I would ban the monkey Masses, the clown Masses, the Chinese dragon Masses, the Halloween Masses with servers in Satanic outfits, the Peter, PAul and Mary folk music Masses, the charismatic roll on the floor and scream and blabber Masses, etc. And I don;t like rock music, I like the sacred traditional Byzantine chant or the Gregorian chant. Why do the Latin Churches need to have this horrible profane rock and roll music for their Masses?
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« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2008, 02:17:40 AM »

Personally, i would change a few things in the Latin Church. for example, I would ban the monkey Masses, the clown Masses, the Chinese dragon Masses, the Halloween Masses with servers in Satanic outfits, the Peter, PAul and Mary folk music Masses, the charismatic roll on the floor and scream and blabber Masses, etc. And I don;t like rock music, I like the sacred traditional Byzantine chant or the Gregorian chant. Why do the Latin Churches need to have this horrible profane rock and roll music for their Masses?

*sigh* brother a lot of the things you just mentioned are not the "Latin Churches" fault but rather innovations by fringe groups.
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« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2008, 02:59:16 AM »

*sigh* brother a lot of the things you just mentioned are not the "Latin Churches" fault but rather innovations by fringe groups.

That's one view. Another is that the "fringe groups" are now the majority and the exception has become the rule.
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« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2008, 03:06:15 AM »

Personally, i would change a few things in the Latin Church. for example, I would ban the monkey Masses, the clown Masses, the Chinese dragon Masses, the Halloween Masses with servers in Satanic outfits, the Peter, PAul and Mary folk music Masses, the charismatic roll on the floor and scream and blabber Masses, etc. And I don;t like rock music, I like the sacred traditional Byzantine chant or the Gregorian chant. Why do the Latin Churches need to have this horrible profane rock and roll music for their Masses?

First off the only place I have ever seen any of the above things is on the internet and even at that there really isn't proof that the events were taking place in actual Roman Catholic Churches.  See the word traditional gets thrown around all the time but it really doesn't mean anything other than the individual using its consumer-based thought process of what pleases him the most, which also is the argument the "traditionalists" have against the rock and roll masses, that those individuals are using that sort of music to suit their own personal consumerism like me me me tastes.  The only place I have seen Byzantine Chant used in the Roman Catholic Church is the modified Byzantine Chant used for the Sanctus..etc... found in most music books in the pews in almost every Roman Catholic church I've been too, and those use the current Missal.
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« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2008, 03:08:15 AM »

That's one view. Another is that the "fringe groups" are now the majority and the exception has become the rule.

Explain.  At least give us a sampling of 1000 Roman Catholic parishes in your country to visit that you would claim have had the fringe group take over so we could at least see in person if these claims are true.
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« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2008, 12:00:45 PM »

Explain.  At least give us a sampling of 1000 Roman Catholic parishes in your country to visit that you would claim have had the fringe group take over so we could at least see in person if these claims are true.

You have access to phone books?  Look under 'Churches - Catholic'  and pick a parish at random.  That should suffice, particularly if you utilize a southern California phone book.  Roll Eyes

You could also travel to Oahu and watch "Dancing Larry" (as he is known locally) Silva, RC Bishop of Honolulu, as he twirls around the altar at youth mass. In fact, tomorrow is the annual 'Youth Day' event and I am sure he will be performing at one point or another for the visiting teens from New York & Texas.  That last minute airline ticket is going to cost you dearly though.  Wink

On a more serious note, I can give you pointers to at least 11 Catholic Religious Orders that have practicing Zen-Catholic priests and/or religious.  I'll dig out the links once I get home from work this evening and post 'em if you are in doubt.
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« Reply #77 on: July 11, 2008, 12:59:31 PM »

That's one view. Another is that the "fringe groups" are now the majority and the exception has become the rule.

Do you think it's fair to criticize a group because some people abuse and disregard the rules and teachings of that group?
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« Reply #78 on: July 11, 2008, 01:04:44 PM »

Do you think it's fair to criticize a group because some people abuse and disregard the rules and teachings of that group?

When the abuse is widespread and little or nothing is done on a local level to rectify the sacrilege (especially when those with the ability to rectify the abuse are thus engaged themselves or simply turn a blind eye), then the answer to your question is a resounding YES.
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« Reply #79 on: July 11, 2008, 01:07:15 PM »

When the abuse is widespread and little or nothing is done on a local level to rectify the sacrilege (especially when those with the ability to rectify the abuse are thus engaged themselves or simply turn a blind eye), then the answer to your question is a resounding YES.

So do you believe that Pope Benedict is engaged in abuse himself, or turning a blind eye to it?
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« Reply #80 on: July 11, 2008, 01:10:06 PM »

So do you believe that Pope Benedict is engaged in abuse himself, or turning a blind eye to it?

Visit any American RC parish and will find that your Uber Bishop and his views are largely irrelevant when examined in light of actual practice of your faith on the local level.
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« Reply #81 on: July 11, 2008, 01:48:48 PM »

You have access to phone books?  Look under 'Churches - Catholic'  and pick a parish at random.  That should suffice, particularly if you utilize a southern California phone book.  Roll Eyes

You could also travel to Oahu and watch "Dancing Larry" (as he is known locally) Silva, RC Bishop of Honolulu, as he twirls around the altar at youth mass. In fact, tomorrow is the annual 'Youth Day' event and I am sure he will be performing at one point or another for the visiting teens from New York & Texas.  That last minute airline ticket is going to cost you dearly though.  Wink

On a more serious note, I can give you pointers to at least 11 Catholic Religious Orders that have practicing Zen-Catholic priests and/or religious.  I'll dig out the links once I get home from work this evening and post 'em if you are in doubt.

Please share those links!

Here are the no-nos I have seen lately in Roman Catholic Churches..... coming from a guy who used to serve mass 5-7 days a week.

-lay people who distribute communion actually communing themselves instead of receiving from the Priest before going to distribute

-lay people performing the ablutions/purification of sacred vessels after communion

That's the biggest no-nos I have seen. I've never witnessed liturgical dancing (well, I guess the Dance of Isiah counts), clown masses, etc...  Perhaps the biggest gripe I EVER had was the responsorial psalm.  It's just a partial psalm.  Then you have one person who CAN NOT sing up front with a microphone belching out the Responsorial psalm.  I always preferred (here goes the I stuff I complain about) the spoken responsorial psalm. 
And yes, "Here I am Lord" is probably one of the best hymns of my generation, and "On Eagles Wings" is as well. 
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« Reply #82 on: July 11, 2008, 02:05:22 PM »

Quote
For instance some believe that the filoque clause actually leads theologically to a hierarchy akin to the Roman Catholic church.
Sorry but I was writing in a hurry... and what I wrote was approximative. I know what you mean and I do agree, as two heads in the Trinity could allow for two heads in the Church (Pope and Christ). A TRUE ABOMINATION.
If we should take in consideration many other differences between RC's and OC's we could take an entiry day. RC doctrine has got many differences, such as afterlife, divine energies, sacramental life, canons, mysticism... even the sources for the Bible are very different as Orthodox Christians generally use a different Canon translated by the LXX... But I think that all of these aspects are just the consequences of the Papal role in the Latin Church; if the Church Fathers made an error, was not to evidence that the Papal primacy was only linked to their continuity in faith. Some of them tried to express it (e.g. Ignatius, Clement of Rome and Ireneus substain this primacy on account of their fidelity to the apostolic faith).
The entire concept of faith in the Latin Church has progressively deviated from Truth. How can we be in communion with such a different church?

In Christ,    Alex
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« Reply #83 on: July 11, 2008, 02:11:12 PM »

Sorry but I was writing in a hurry... and what I wrote was approximative. I know what you mean and I do agree, as two heads in the Trinity could allow for two heads in the Church (Pope and Christ). A TRUE ABOMINATION.
If we should take in consideration many other differences between RC's and OC's we could take an entiry day. RC doctrine has got many differences, such as afterlife, divine energies, sacramental life, canons, mysticism... even the sources for the Bible are very different as Orthodox Christians generally use a different Canon translated by the LXX... But I think that all of these aspects are just the consequences of the Papal role in the Latin Church; if the Church Fathers made an error, was not to evidence that the Papal primacy was only linked to their continuity in faith. Some of them tried to express it (e.g. Ignatius, Clement of Rome and Ireneus substain this primacy on account of their fidelity to the apostolic faith).
The entire concept of faith in the Latin Church has progressively deviated from Truth. How can we be in communion with such a different church?

In Christ,    Alex

There is a thread ongoing about the primacy of the Pope of Rome here
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12957.0.html  -username! your friendly section moderator
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« Reply #84 on: July 11, 2008, 02:30:54 PM »

Visit any American RC parish and will find that your Uber Bishop and his views are largely irrelevant when examined in light of actual practice of your faith on the local level.

Well, I'm in the Byzantine Ruthenian Greek Catholic Rite and haven't seen too many dancing girls at our church lately ... but I'll ask the Bishop if he can find us any, next time he drops by for a visit.  laugh
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« Reply #85 on: July 11, 2008, 04:16:22 PM »

Well, I'm in the Byzantine Ruthenian Greek Catholic Rite and haven't seen too many dancing girls at our church lately ... but I'll ask the Bishop if he can find us any, next time he drops by for a visit.  laugh

Why are you attending a Byzantine Rite Parish as opposed to your normal Roman Rite? I can tell you that when I attended my Catholic Parish we had dancing girls.
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« Reply #86 on: July 11, 2008, 04:32:18 PM »

Why are you attending a Byzantine Rite Parish as opposed to your normal Roman Rite? I can tell you that when I attended my Catholic Parish we had dancing girls.

Well, I married a Byzantine Rite Catholic guy - and I thought it would be nice if we went to church together.  angel

And I never saw any dancing girls at the Lithuanian (Roman) Catholic Church I attended before that.

(Just to clarify - please understand, I'm not doubting you - I know all too well that these abuses exist in too many parishes - but they are definitely abuses and not approved by the RC hierarchy. )
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« Reply #87 on: July 11, 2008, 05:08:53 PM »

Well, I married a Byzantine Rite Catholic guy - and I thought it would be nice if we went to church together.  angel

And I never saw any dancing girls at the Lithuanian (Roman) Catholic Church I attended before that.

(Just to clarify - please understand, I'm not doubting you - I know all too well that these abuses exist in too many parishes - but they are definitely abuses and not approved by the RC hierarchy. )

I was married in a Black Baptist Church... so you are far more 'orthodox' than me, my friend.  Cheesy
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« Reply #88 on: July 11, 2008, 05:32:17 PM »

I was married in a Black Baptist Church... so you are far more 'orthodox' than me, my friend.  Cheesy


Sweet!  Can I quote you on that?  Cheesy
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« Reply #89 on: July 11, 2008, 06:21:26 PM »

On the contrary, Eastern Catholic Churches (or "Uniates", as somebody called them) share the same beliefs of Rome which are contrary to Orthodox theology. It doesn't matter if they say or not the expression "and from the Son" in the Creed, but they ALLOW FOR IT to be added by their brothers of the Latin Church;

That doesn't seem so different from the situation during the period 500 AD - 1054 AD, when much of the Western Church was using the Filioque and East and West were in full communion.
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