OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 22, 2014, 12:33:00 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: EP suggests "dual unity" for Eastern Catholics?  (Read 24298 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
wynd
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 501


Transfiguration


« on: June 19, 2008, 06:09:56 PM »

Orthodox leader suggests "dual unity" for Eastern Catholics:

Quote
Constantinople, Jun. 19, 2008 (CWNews.com) - The Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople has responded favorably to a suggestion by the head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church for a system of "dual unity" in which Byzantine Catholic churches would be in full communion with both Constantinople and Rome.

More: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=59186

Is this possible from an Orthodox perspective?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,224


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2008, 06:35:56 PM »

From the Orthodox perspective, the papacy of Rome and all those in Communion with him are in schism from the Church of Jesus Christ.  Therefore, anyone of the Eastern Rite who enters into communion with Rome must leave the Church to do so.  This means total severing of communion with the Orthodox Church of which His All-Holiness is a bishop and patriarch.  Thus, the answer to your question is, "No, dual unity of the Byzantine Rite Catholics with Rome and Constantinople is NOT possible."

As an aside, I suppose His All-Holiness can make the decision to recognize Byzantine Rite Catholics as being in communion with us, but I don't think anyone outside of his direct jurisdiction will ever honor such a decision.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,867



« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2008, 07:19:38 PM »

I'm very suprised that Pat. Bartholomew would "respond favorably" to such an idea. He did say that "important differences would have to be overcome," but that could be taken in a lot of ways. What differences does he see that need to be overcome? Is he thinking of things like Roman primacy and infallibility, or less significant problems?
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2008, 07:30:20 PM »

I'm very suprised that Pat. Bartholomew would "respond favorably" to such an idea. He did say that "important differences would have to be overcome," but that could be taken in a lot of ways. What differences does he see that need to be overcome? Is he thinking of things like Roman primacy and infallibility, or less significant problems?
I think we are getting a filtered version of this "news item". My guess is he probably spelled this out, but this was glossed over in the "news" report and reduced to the one sentence: "Patriarch Bartholomew acknowledged that a restoration of unity would require study, and important differences would have to be overcome."
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2008, 07:30:33 PM »

I'm very suprised that Pat. Bartholomew would "respond favorably" to such an idea. He did say that "important differences would have to be overcome," but that could be taken in a lot of ways. What differences does he see that need to be overcome? Is he thinking of things like Roman primacy and infallibility, or less significant problems?

It's a shame there isn't more detail in the article, but good to see that the lines are open for communication and resolution (whenever/should that be).
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,290


WWW
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2008, 08:04:55 PM »

If there will be "local unity" in the Ukraine which stops the proselytizing by both sides, why not extend it universally?

Sounds like a back door attempt to reunify Catholicism and Orthodoxy especially if the MP is part of this proposal.  If the MP is aboard, consider unity 99.999% a done deal.   Cry
Logged
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,270



« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2008, 08:35:44 PM »

This is not ok. If they are in communion with Rome they are scismatics. I don't understand why the EP wants to even do this.
Logged
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2008, 08:37:52 PM »

This is not ok. If they are in communion with Rome they are scismatics. I don't understand why the EP wants to even do this.

Like ozgeorge said we are getting a filtered news item. If we get the context of the discussion or an actual transcript we can not really be sure what it is about.
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2008, 09:35:09 PM »

This is not ok. If they are in communion with Rome they are scismatics. I don't understand why the EP wants to even do this.

I'm with you on this one. Plus, how does this solve the problems of the Orthodox in Ukraine?

Weren't the Melkites rejected when they suggested this exact proposal?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 09:36:37 PM by Αριστοκλής » Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2008, 10:08:56 PM »

Like ozgeorge said we are getting a filtered news item. If we get the context of the discussion or an actual transcript we can not really be sure what it is about.

I agree, and this filtered news seems a tad confusing. The heading of the article suggests that His All Holiness has made the proposal and yet in the text it states that it came from the head of the Ukranian church.  Huh
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2008, 01:14:27 AM »

If true, this is a rather strange thing to hear from the Ecumenical Patriarch.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2008, 01:23:49 AM »

I think we are getting a filtered version of this "news item".

Good grief. I certainly hope this is the case. 

As an aside, I suppose His All-Holiness can make the decision to recognize Byzantine Rite Catholics as being in communion with us, but I don't think anyone outside of his direct jurisdiction will ever honor such a decision.

I don't see how he can, without severing himself from the Orthodox communion.
Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2008, 01:54:16 AM »

I don't see how he can, without severing himself from the Orthodox communion.

Neither can I.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2008, 01:59:51 AM »

This is all based on a Catholic news item. Perhaps they are reading too much into whatever has been said.  Huh
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,224


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2008, 02:01:53 AM »

I don't see how he can, without severing himself from the Orthodox communion.
Well, His All-Holiness can do whatever his conscience leads him to do, but you're right that the consequence of such action may well be his own excommunication.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2008, 02:03:24 AM »

This is all based on a Catholic news item. Perhaps they are reading too much into whatever has been said.  Huh

Quite possibly so. I get the impression of late that the Vatican is being somewhat manipulative with these announcements, and the EP may not be experienced enough to realize how his words can be construed. But I might be over generous in that last part.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2008, 02:04:16 AM »

Well, His All-Holiness can do whatever his conscience leads him to do, but you're right that the consequence of such action may well be his own excommunication.

How'd one like to sit on his synod? <shudder....>
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,224


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2008, 02:04:44 AM »

This is all based on a Catholic news item. Perhaps they are reading too much into whatever has been said.  Huh
Nah.  I'm just speaking of the hypothetical situation that would arise IF the article is accurate.  Personally, I would probably not give much credence to this being the case.
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2008, 02:06:01 AM »

Quite possibly so. I get the impression of late that the Vatican is being somewhat manipulative with these announcements, and the EP may not be experienced enough to realize how his words can be construed. But I might be over generous in that last part.

Have you searched the net, at all? Catholic forums are abuzz with this news - mostly confusion it would seem. Some posters even seem to think it's an Orthodox plot of some kind!
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2008, 02:51:48 AM »

Orthodox leader suggests "dual unity" for Eastern Catholics:

More: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=59186

Is this possible from an Orthodox perspective?
I don't know. But IMHO, from the R Catholic perspective, I don't think it would pose any insurmountable problems.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2008, 04:10:30 AM »

Have you searched the net, at all? Catholic forums are abuzz with this news - mostly confusion it would seem. Some posters even seem to think it's an Orthodox plot of some kind!

Funny, really funny!

But I don't do RC forums, anymore.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,191


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2008, 04:52:52 AM »

If true, this is a rather strange thing to hear from the Ecumenical Patriarch.
I would think you would approve of such a thing. Am I wrong?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,661



« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2008, 07:42:14 AM »

Is that like an "open" marriage?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2008, 08:57:05 AM »

Cool.
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2008, 09:11:12 AM »

Can anyone read German?

http://kath.net/detail.php?id=20113
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2008, 09:12:33 AM »

Quite possibly so. I get the impression of late that the Vatican is being somewhat manipulative with these announcements, and the EP may not be experienced enough to realize how his words can be construed. But I might be over generous in that last part.

There is no evidence the Holy See is behind this story.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 09:12:53 AM by lubeltri » Logged
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2008, 09:51:15 AM »


Pretty much saying the EP is reported to have invited the Eastern Catholic Churches to recognise the Pope in an "Orthodox manner" and be in union with both Rome and Constantinople.  It also mentions that the first things to be discussed will be the modern developments in Catholic dogma.  Then the EP goes on to say that we must grow together again and how there is still much to do.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,902


« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2008, 10:19:06 AM »

So the EP is having Orthodox unity with Eastern Catholics, while ECs have union with Rome, pending Orthodox union with Rome? The ECs will be the middle party to smoothe the way?
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2008, 10:20:51 AM »

So the EP is having Orthodox unity with Eastern Catholics, while ECs have union with Rome, pending Orthodox union with Rome? The ECs will be the middle party to smoothe the way?

Seems that is what the articles posted so far have said.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Fuerza
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Catholic
Posts: 18


« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2008, 10:24:55 AM »

I don't know. But IMHO, from the R Catholic perspective, I don't think it would pose any insurmountable problems.

I'm not sure about that, especially without further clarification about what the Patriarch intended by his comments and which obstacles he has in mind. So far this seems very similar to the Zoghby Initiative, of which Pope Benedict was not particularly a fan back when he was still a cardinal. Rome might be open to further discussion on the matter, but an official double communion without some kind of change is not likely.
Logged
katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 889


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2008, 10:25:27 AM »

If this is true, there definintely needs to be an Ecumenical Council so that he can be deposed.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,224


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2008, 12:39:01 PM »

Pretty much saying the EP is reported to have invited the Eastern Catholic Churches to recognise the Pope in an "Orthodox manner" and be in union with both Rome and Constantinople.
ISTM that the only way the EC churches can recognize the Pope in an "Orthodox manner" is to recognize the schism that still exists between Rome and the Orthodox and to recognize that intercommunion is just not possible until Rome returns to the Orthodox faith.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 12:42:47 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2008, 12:52:46 PM »

If this is true, there definintely needs to be an Ecumenical Council so that he can be deposed.

What else can one expect from an Orthodox Patriarch 'educated' at a Catholic institution in Rome?  He should have been deposed long ago.
.
Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2008, 12:59:28 PM »

There is no evidence the Holy See is behind this story.

It's from YOUR sources, not ours.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2008, 01:00:40 PM »

What else can one expect from an Orthodox Patriarch 'educated' at a Catholic institution in Rome?  He should have been deposed long ago.
.

Too bad it's none of your business, unless you're switching jurisdictions and sit on his synod.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2008, 01:03:09 PM »

Too bad it's none of your business, unless you're switching jurisdictions and sit on his synod.

Lol. Thanks for making my day - its amazing the lengths you GO go to defend Pat. Bart no matter his antics.   Grin
.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 01:04:42 PM by Heracleides » Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2008, 01:42:40 PM »

Lol. Thanks for making my day - its amazing the lengths you GO go to defend Pat. Bart no matter his antics.   Grin

It's amazing how you are so quick to condemn and judge instead of grieve and pray......or even consider that you just might be jumping the gun and how some sober second thought might be in order.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 03:36:13 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,290


WWW
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2008, 01:51:25 PM »

What else can one expect from an Orthodox Patriarch 'educated' at a Catholic institution in Rome?  He should have been deposed long ago.

By whom and which army?  The Holy Spirit operates according to its own timetable, not ours.  If this idea is "bad", the Holy Spirit will let us know in its own time.
Logged
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 976


« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2008, 03:32:21 PM »

personally, I think this is just a continuation of the usual Eastern Catholic wishful thinking or maybe even just plain misinformation.

Here is a rough translation of the German:
Patriarch Bartholomew Supports the Idea of “Double Unity”
of the Eastern Catholic Churches

17 June 2008 – In his recent interview with the ecumenical journal “Cyril and Methodius” the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew touched on the question of the existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches. He invited these Churches, while remaining in union with Rome, to become Orthodox again. In particular he said that “the Constantinopolitan Mother Church always keeps the doors open for her sons and daughters.” In the words of the Orthodox First Hierarch, the model of unity can be the form of coexistence which was in place between the Byzantine and Roman Curches during the first millennium of Christianity, KATH.net stated on 16 June.
At the same time, the Patriarch expressed himself favorably concerning the idea of “double unity” which was proposed by the Chief Hierarch of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church Major Archbishop Lubomyr (Husar). The Head of the Ecumenical Patriarchate explained that such a model would lead to the settlement of the division between the Churches. In the words of the Patriarch, Church unity is not “the result of the administrators of the Churches nor of theological fantasies”. “It is necessary to have more common efforts with the participation of Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant communities, common projects, so as to know one another better. It is necessary to pray much, very much.” Patriarch Bartholomew said that important steps on the road to unity have already been taken. “The mutual anathemas of 1054 between the Churches have been lifted. The theological dialogue of the Orthodox Church with Anglicans, Lutherans, and Reformed is going ahead without interruption. After a pause of several years this dialogue is again renewed”.

- - - - - -

Maybe the Ecumenical Patriarch really did say: In particular he said that “the Constantinopolitan Mother Church always keeps the doors open for her sons and daughters.”
But I dount the Ecumenical patriarch would ever approve of "double unity".  This is totally against basic Eastern Orthodox dogma.


However, it is an idea that the Ukrainian Catholics support and they are the leaders of claiming they are "Orthodox in union with Rome."
Speaking as a Ukrainian Orthodox Christian, I can say that Ukrainian Catholics cannot receive communion in my Church: only Orthodox Christians can partake of communion.
I am sad to say that every now and then a Ukrainian Catholic comes along who tries to join the communion line but our priest knows everyone who goes to confession and has turned away an Ukrainian Catholics who dare to try this
rouse.

I have been trying to find the journal mentioned "Cyril and Methodius" on the internet to see the article cited.  I think we should wait a few days to see how the Ecumenical Patriarchate responds to the German article.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2008, 03:57:11 PM »

Oh my gosh, Orest! A reasonable response...what next?
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 976


« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2008, 12:31:40 AM »

I still haven't found the Cyril & Methodius journal online; however, I did read a comment on words of Cardinal Kaspar at  Oxford.  These words are quite a slap in the face to Ukrainian Catholics and I can't help wondering if the false claim that the Ecumenical Patriarch supports "double unity" was written in part as a response to Cardinal Kaspar's stance regarding Ukrainian Catholics.

Quote
INTERNATIONAL EXCLUSIVE TO CATHOLICA AUSTRALIA:

 A long-running and complex diplomatic, ecumenical, political tension between three major churches, the Russian Orthodox, the Latin Church and the Ukrainian Catholic Church has been building to new heights in recent weeks. Cardinal Walter Kaspar has been involved in a high level initiative in Moscow seeking to reopen talks with the Russian Orthodox Church which had become stalled under the late Pope John Paul II. Meanwhile a Synod of Bishops of Eastern Catholic Churches is underway in Kyiv (Kiev) at the moment. Cardinal Kaspar's remarks at a Theology seminar at Oxford University a few week's ago appear to have caused deep offense to Ukrainian Catholics who have long been seeking Rome's support for the establishment of a Ukrainian Patriarchy. Rome had been in favour of correcting this historical anomaly under Pope Benedict's predecessor but the final steps of the process were seemingly cut short by the death of Pope John Paul II. Under Cardinal Kaspar and Pope Benedict, the Ukrainian Catholics feel they have been relegated to a class of second-class Catholics in Rome's impatience to reach some rapprochement and healing of the relationship with Moscow. Much is at stake in this diplomatic game of brinksmanship. Rome has gone cold on the idea of a Ukrainian Patriarchy seemingly in favour of the diplomatic overtures to the Russian Orthodox Church. As reported in some conservative Catholic news agencies yesterday, there are initiatives underway for the Ukrainian Catholics to form a joint Patriarchy with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Dr Andrew Kania is a respected lay member of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Australia and at the international level is a widely published writer seeking to bring greater understanding of the perspectives of Eastern Catholics in the Western lung of Catholicism. In his present position at Oxford University Dr Kania has been close to some of the unfolding events in recent weeks and provides this detailed understanding of what is unfolding written from the perspective of Ukrainian Catholics and their spiritual leaders in Kiev.

…On the of 5th of May, 2008, the German theologian, Cardinal Walter Kaspar having been invited by the University of Oxford's four Catholic Halls, delivered the inaugural John Henry Newman Lecture, entitled: "The Timeliness of Speaking About God". Nothing was said in this address that a Catholic would take umbrage with or even be slightly surprised at hearing. Kaspar spoke well on the necessity of God in a world influenced by fundamentalist atheism. However, that Kaspar's lecture caused no offence, cannot be said with regard his comments earlier on the same day at a seminar organized by the Faculty of Theology at the University and held at Christ Church.
Cardinal Kaspar when asked of his opinion at the seminar, on the plans of the Ukrainian Catholic Church to establish a Patriarchate in Kyiv, responded in words that would sadden not only the majority of Ukrainian Catholics, but would also embarrass many Catholics of the West. According to Kaspar, the major problem that he envisaged for the Vatican recognizing Patriarchal status for Kyiv and the Ukrainian Catholic Church, is in the effect that this would have on the process of 'ecumenical relations' with Moscow and the Russian Orthodox Church. Kaspar concluded his response to the question by saying that the present Pope, takes the same stand as he does on the issue. Kaspar dismissed the notion of a joint Ukrainian Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox patriarchate, currently being discussed in Kyiv, as untenable.

In addition to these comments the German Cardinal spoke of the need for there to be liturgical reforms in the East, as, he perceived the Liturgy to be overly lengthy, as well as the need for the East to have an Enlightenment similar to the West, to solve the problems of superstition in Eastern Christendom. Evidently Kaspar, a renowned ecumenist was only too willing to insult Eastern Christians perhaps believing that he was speaking to what would certainly be a uniformly Western Catholic/Anglican audience. Moreover when asked privately later about his specific arguments as to his strong stance regarding the establishment of a Patriarchate in Kyiv, Cardinal Kaspar, gruffly replied: "There should not be!", and then without a further parting word, turned his back on the theologian who had asked the question.

The author: "Andrew Thomas Kania is a visiting scholar at Blackfriars Hall at the University of Oxford, where he is completing a book on Dag Hammrskjöld. He has taken 12 months leave of absence from his position as Director of Spirituality at Aquinas College, Manning in Western Australia to complete this task. Prior to this appointment at Aquinas Dr. Kania was a lecturer for the School of Religious Education at the University of Notre Dame Australia as well as for the Catholic Institute of Western Australia at Edith Cowan and Curtin Universities. Dr. Kania belongs to the Ukrainian Church and is interested in ecumenical issues as well as contemporary problems facing religious educators."

http://www.catholica.com.au/andrewstake1/079_ak_210608.php

Again I want to repeat that I have never heard any cleric, hierarch or even a lay person  in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church who supports a "double unity".  Only Orthodox Christians can partake of communion in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 12:35:03 AM by Orest » Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,290


WWW
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2008, 12:54:21 AM »

May 5 was before Cardinal Kaspar's visit to MP (on May 30) which was after Archbishop Demetrios' visit to MP.

In those latter 2 discussions, discussions pertaining to the Ukraine resulted in the articles posted on this thread.  I said in a previous thread that any unity in the homogeneous Ukraine would serve as a "back door" for reunification; Additionally, the "back door" would serve as a rehearsal for eventual Catholic/Orthodox Unity.

Since MP and Pope Benedict wish to meet with each other, resolving the Ukraine may be the last stumbling block between a visit between the two Hierarchs. 

I still haven't found the Cyril & Methodius journal online; however, I did read a comment on words of Cardinal Kaspar at  Oxford.  These words are quite a slap in the face to Ukrainian Catholics and I can't help wondering if the false claim that the Ecumenical Patriarch supports "double unity" was written in part as a response to Cardinal Kaspar's stance regarding Ukrainian Catholics.

Again I want to repeat that I have never heard any cleric, hierarch or even a lay person  in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church who supports a "double unity".  Only Orthodox Christians can partake of communion in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Logged
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,064



« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2008, 01:35:26 AM »

cwnews is a Roman Catholic website

Look there is much speculation going on here.  cwnews.com is a Roman Catholic online news site.  How credible is any news agency?  How credible is cwnews.com?  The best thing to do would be to do investigation and read the sources they claim to be referencing.  Then you may start to form an opinion on whether or not the linked article in the original post is worth getting worked up about.  I would bet that the cwnews.com article has been spun and doesn't accurately reflect the article they wrote this piece about.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 01:41:07 AM by username! » Logged

theorthodoxchurch
georgy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Syrian Church of the East (Indian Orthodox Church)
Posts: 146

georgy


WWW
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2008, 04:57:46 AM »

I dont really understand the pain taken by the Ecumenical Patriarch unify the Holy Orthodoxy with heretic Roman Church. This is out of control.. Dual unity is big mistake !!! Rome wants Ecumenism and unity with Orthodox Church not out of  the love for  Orthodoxy, but it is to swallow the Holy teachings of Jesus Christ and His Apostles.
 
Why does the Ecumenical Patriarch, still not enthusiastic about establishing full communion between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Family....

Pray for Orthodox Unity!!!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 04:59:27 AM by theorthodoxchurch » Logged
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2008, 09:43:41 PM »

I would think you would approve of such a thing. Am I wrong?
As an Eastern Catholic I am for unity with the Orthodox, but only if all the Orthodox Churches agree.  That said, I fear that unilateral action by the Ecumenical Patriarch could cause a schism among the Orthodox Churches, and that would benefit no one.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2008, 09:54:03 PM »

As an Eastern Catholic I am for unity with the Orthodox, but only if all the Orthodox Churches agree.  That said, I fear that unilateral action by the Ecumenical Patriarch could cause a schism among the Orthodox Churches, and that would benefit no one.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying you have no problem with simultaneously being in communion with two groups with contradictory teachings?  Would such an arrangement require the Eastern Latins to believe anything?
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2008, 09:57:10 PM »

The Eastern Catholic Churches should be completely de-Latinized and should accept Holy Orthodoxy in its entirety.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 09:57:28 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2008, 09:59:45 PM »

The Eastern Catholic Churches should be completely de-Latinized and should accept Holy Orthodoxy in its entirety.

Are you saying that the Eastern Latins should leave communion with Rome and return to Orthodoxy or are you saying that they should return their liturgical practices to what they were while still remaining in communion with Rome?
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2008, 10:06:28 PM »

De-Latinization is not simply about returning to earlier liturgical practices, but is also about the restoration of the doctrinal and spiritual tradition that is intimately bound up with the proper worship of the tri-hypostatic God.  Thus, I support the complete de-Latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches, which would then reunite with their mother Churches in Holy Orthodoxy.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,742


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2008, 10:07:20 PM »

Quote
the German Cardinal spoke of the need for there to be liturgical reforms in the East, as, he perceived the Liturgy to be overly lengthy, as well as the need for the East to have an Enlightenment similar to the West, to solve the problems of superstition in Eastern Christendom.

It is to laugh, it is to cry. Either way, preposterous.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 10:08:13 PM by LBK » Logged
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2008, 10:08:57 PM »

De-Latinization is not simply about returning to earlier liturgical practices, but is also about the restoration of the doctrinal and spiritual tradition that is intimately bound up with the proper worship of the tri-hypostatic God.  Thus, I support the complete de-Latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches, which would then reunite with their mother Churches in Holy Orthodoxy.

You're dodging the question.  Do you want to be in communion with Rome or do you want to be Orthodox?  Pick one.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2008, 10:11:13 PM »

Are you saying that the Eastern Latins should leave communion with Rome . . .
No, that's not what I am saying.  The restoration of communion between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox Churches would make possible the reunification of the Eastern Catholic Churches with their proper mother Churches.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2008, 10:12:37 PM »

You're dodging the question.  Do you want to be in communion with Rome or do you want to be Orthodox?  Pick one.
No, I am not dodging the question; instead, I am simply slow at responding due to the fact that I use Dragon Naturally Speaking in order to type.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2008, 10:15:04 PM »

No, I am not dodging the question; instead, I am simply slow at responding due to the fact that I use Dragon Naturally Speaking in order to type.

Oh, this ought to be good.  Please explain just how your choice of software has anything to do with whether you answer questions put to you or not.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2008, 10:18:13 PM »

Oh, this ought to be good.  Please explain just how your choice of software has anything to do with whether you answer questions put to you or not.
I answered your question in the post right above the one in which I mentioned the software that I use.  It took a while to compose it, my apologies.

I am for communion with both Rome and Orthodoxy.  That said, my reason for posting in this thread in the first place, was that I believe that the proposal of the Ecumenical Patriarch, if he really has proposed this course of action, cannot be a unilateral decision on his part, because if it is it could divide the Eastern Orthodox Churches and that benefits no one.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 10:18:49 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2008, 10:29:01 PM »

if he really has proposed this course of action
He didn't. The Catholic spin doctors at CWN said:
"The Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople has responded favorably to a suggestion by the head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church for a system of "dual unity".
In other words, the Ukrainian Catholic Archbishop proposed it. And according to CWN, His All-Holiness "responded favourably"- whatever that means.........and interestingly, the good people at CWN don't ever tell us what His All-Holiness actually said to make them come to this conclusion. This is earth shattering news, surely they'd want to quote his exact words for the sound byte? Wink
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
BasilCan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 204


« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2008, 08:48:38 PM »

Oxgeorge's comments should be taken seriously. The Patriarchate of Antioch (the most Catholic friendly of all patriarchates) was asked by the Melkites (who are the most Orthodox of catholics) if they could be "dual unified" in the 1990's and the answer was.......NO. The Ecumenical patriachate is being "open" simply to keep on the radar screen of Western Christians who may influence the Turks who want him out of Istanbul.

Basil
Logged
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 976


« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2008, 11:15:07 AM »

I am wondering if this news release about "double unity" is just another "diplomatic move"
as mentioned in this article here.

03 June 2008, 15:10
Statements on upcoming meeting between pope, patriarch may be
diplomatic move

Moscow, June 3, Interfax - The Moscow Patriarchate doesn't rule out
that the statement made by Cardinal Walter Kasper saying that Pope
Benedict XVI and Patriarch Alexy II will meet in the nearest future
may be a diplomatic move by the Vatican.

Kasper, who heads the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian
Unity, recently said the pope and the Russian patriarch may meet in
the near future.

"Such commentaries by one of the parties are sometimes a diplomatic
move intended to put certain soft pressure on the negotiating
parties. It's like they are saying 'We are glad, we are looking
forward [to a meeting], why are you avoiding us?'" Deacon Andrey
Kurayev, a professor at the Moscow Theological Academy, told Interfax-
Religion on Tuesday.

Kurayev said he did not participant in the negotiations between
Kasper and the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church and therefore
cannot say which precisely nuances of the dialogue gave the cardinal
a reason for optimistic comments.

At the same time, Kurayev said he is hoping tat "some progress has
been achieved in our relationship, and it is connected with the fact
that the current pope, unlike his predecessor, is not personally
responsible for the tragedies in the history of Orthodoxy in Western
Ukraine in the early 1990s, when Greek Catholics literally ravaged
three Orthodox dioceses."
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=4753


Logged
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 976


« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2008, 11:14:27 PM »

The Ecumenical Patriarch has denied he ever said he supports "Double Unity":
Quote
PRESS RELEASE

With respect to the recently published articles reporting that allegedly His All
Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew believes that it is possible for the
Greek Catholics (Uniates) to have a “double union”, in other words, full
communion with Rome as well as with Constantinople, the Ecumenical Patriarchate
refutes this inaccurate statement and affirms it was never made. The Ecumenical
Patriarchate repeats its position that full union in faith is a prerequisite for
sacramental communion.

At the Patriarchate, the 5th of July 2008
From the Chief Secretariat of the Holy Synod
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxNews/message/9549

I read this article recently about technology problems in the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Perhaps the lack of technological savy expalins why it took so long for the EP to issue his denial.

Quote
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/washington/olives...
ntries/2008/06/23/emailing_new_rome.html
E-mailing New Rome
By Robert W. Gee | Monday, June 23, 2008, 10:18 AM
When I walked through the anteroom and into the office of the spiritual leader of 300 million Orthodox Christians, it was as I had imagined: richly colored Persian carpets, walls paneled with dark wood and bookcases filled with leather-bound volumes. From a desk cluttered with stacks of papers at the far end of the room, he walked toward me and I froze.
What was it I was supposed to call him?
"Hello, His Holiness. - Your Holiness," I said.
He smiled, extended his hand and gave me a hearty shake. He first offered coffee, which I accepted. Turkish or Espresso?
For a brief moment, I considered which might be preferable in this beleaguered redoubt of Greek Christianity in the capital of Muslim Turkey. Perhaps His Holiness eschews anything called Turkish. Espresso, I said. In truth, that's what I wanted. I was there last week for a story on Coca Cola's new CEO who is Turkish and Muslim but struck up a friendship with His Holiness.
...He gave me his new book, "Encountering The Mystery; Understanding Orthodox Christianity
Today." I asked him to inscribe it, which he did. As I left, he offered me a chocolate and asked if I could send him a copy of my article once it is published. "Of course," I told him, and suggested he might prefer I e-mail it. He turned toward a bookcase. "One moment," he said, and flipped through a book, finally stopping at a page with a Web site address. Pointing to it, he asked, "Is this the e-mail address?" No, that's not the one, I said.
There was one monk who knew the e-mail address, he told me, and on my way out, we would see if he was in his room. He was not. "I don't know much about technology," he explained, a little embarrassed.
I Googled His Holiness and found his e-mail address, so I'll e-mail the article first and wait for a response.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,290


WWW
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2008, 11:23:48 PM »

^ Note that press release was issued in English & Cyrillic.
Source for above Article from Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 11:24:41 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,290


WWW
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2008, 11:25:41 PM »

For Reply #58, can the hyperlink be fixed?  Thank You.   Smiley
Logged
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 976


« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2008, 11:28:24 PM »

Sorry about that.  Here is the source for the press release about the Ecumenical Patriarch refuting "Double Unity" for Eastern-rite catholics:
http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=952&tla=en

Please note it is the web page of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the press release is issued by the Chief Secretariat of the Holy Synod.

Orest
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2008, 12:23:36 AM »

I do believe some people owe His All-Holiness an apology.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,290


WWW
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2008, 12:32:48 AM »

I do believe some people owe His All-Holiness an apology.

Given that His All Holiness will attend the 1,002nd Anniversary of the Baptism of the Kievan Rus into Eastern Orthodoxy, I apologize for raising the spectre of "back-door" Unity in past replies on this thread.   Embarrassed 

I will note that Ukrainian Greek Catholics will want (which they deserve) equal recognition from their Hierarchs because the Historical Baptism of the Kievan Rus occurred Pre-Schism and Pre 1453.   Undecided

Edited for content and clarity
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 12:37:52 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2008, 01:06:22 AM »

I think most news of a religious nature gets "dumbed down" for popular consumption. So I too would caution anyone from having an embollism over this "news."

Face it, most Christians, of any communion, have very little patience or acumen for careful theological reasoning and debate, let alone their secular counterparts. So whether the original Catholic source was "spinning" the report, as some have suggested, or just reducing it to sound bite reporting for popular consumption, who is to say?

I don't think anything in our Orthodox faith says anything about dialogue and conversing with other Christians. The EP does this and gets alot of negative publicity for it. People speculate all over the place about his motives.

If anything, broadening his base of Christian support through dialogue with Christian communions in the EU (Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed) bolsters his position in his home country which is Muslim. So it is smart for him to do so. He also needs to balance the influence of the MP for pastoral and political reasons so that he remains relevant in the EU.

As long as he is seen as respected and in the news in the EU and a counterweight to the MP in his home country of Turkey, the govt. can't just run roughshod over him.

One earlier post seemed to dismiss the EP as a rube. If my estimation is correct, he is quite shrewd and to be admired.

P.S. I am not suggesting these are the ONLY reasons he does what he does. And my interpretation in no way denies the spirituality of his ministry.

P.P.S. I am OCA and not under the EP.



« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 01:09:35 AM by BrotherAidan » Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2008, 07:59:36 AM »

As an Orthodox I find it very difficult to believe a double unity is possible. Why? Because I don't understand how can be with Rome and with Constantinople when they follow two different kinds of theology and ecclesiology which can't be solved in one common position. Obviously the obstacles are two: the Filioque clause and Papal Infallibility, one theological and one ecclesiological.
I think it's far easier for the Oriental Church to be united with the Ecumenical Patriarchate (recent Joint Declarations show how their christology shouldn't be called  non-Chalcedonian but pre-Chalcedonian); after a common definition of Christ's nature be formulated, the acceptance of the Canons of the Councils will be required and unity could be sealed.
On the contrary, Eastern Catholic Churches (or "Uniates", as somebody called them) share the same beliefs of Rome which are contrary to Orthodox theology. It doesn't matter if they say or not the expression "and from the Son" in the Creed, but they ALLOW FOR IT to be added by their brothers of the Latin Church; It doesn't matter if they keep all of the Sacraments (or Mysteries) exactly like the Orthodox, but because of their recognition of the Pope as vicar of Christ they possess - from an Orthodox point of view - a heterodox position on ecclesiology.
I don't know if it's the same in America, but in Italy we say:
"L'amico del mio amico è mio amico" (my friend's friend is my friend)
and if we're friends (or brothers) with the Eastern Catholic Churches we should also be friends (or brothers) with the Latin Church.
Live the Church of Rome, and the Orthodox doors will be open for you!

In Christ,    Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2008, 09:15:05 AM »

I do believe some people owe His All-Holiness an apology.

So it would seem...but he used the U-word!  Wink  teehee
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2008, 09:31:15 PM »

As an Orthodox I find it very difficult to believe a double unity is possible. Why? Because I don't understand how can be with Rome and with Constantinople when they follow two different kinds of theology and ecclesiology which can't be solved in one common position. Obviously the obstacles are two: the Filioque clause and Papal Infallibility, one theological and one ecclesiological.
I think it's far easier for the Oriental Church to be united with the Ecumenical Patriarchate (recent Joint Declarations show how their christology shouldn't be called  non-Chalcedonian but pre-Chalcedonian); after a common definition of Christ's nature be formulated, the acceptance of the Canons of the Councils will be required and unity could be sealed.
On the contrary, Eastern Catholic Churches (or "Uniates", as somebody called them) share the same beliefs of Rome which are contrary to Orthodox theology. It doesn't matter if they say or not the expression "and from the Son" in the Creed, but they ALLOW FOR IT to be added by their brothers of the Latin Church; It doesn't matter if they keep all of the Sacraments (or Mysteries) exactly like the Orthodox, but because of their recognition of the Pope as vicar of Christ they possess - from an Orthodox point of view - a heterodox position on ecclesiology.
I don't know if it's the same in America, but in Italy we say:
"L'amico del mio amico è mio amico" (my friend's friend is my friend)
and if we're friends (or brothers) with the Eastern Catholic Churches we should also be friends (or brothers) with the Latin Church.
Live the Church of Rome, and the Orthodox doors will be open for you!

In Christ,    Alex

Brother you do know that we Orthodox don't seperate our ecclesiology from our theology and either do the Catholics. Its a bigger situation than "filouque" and "papal infallibility". There are some "basic" philosophical  ideas that when taken to there logical extreme cause an immense difference in the way we view everything. For instance some believe that the filoque clause actually leads theologically to a hierarchy akin to the Roman Catholic church.
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2008, 04:47:42 PM »


So it would seem...but he used the U-word!  Wink  teehee

Unity?  Cheesy
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2008, 08:49:41 AM »

Unity?  Cheesy

That one, too.  Wink
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,191


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2008, 07:55:12 PM »

De-Latinization is not simply about returning to earlier liturgical practices, but is also about the restoration of the doctrinal and spiritual tradition that is intimately bound up with the proper worship of the tri-hypostatic God.  Thus, I support the complete de-Latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches, which would then reunite with their mother Churches in Holy Orthodoxy.
Would you change the Latin Churces in anyway?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2008, 11:41:53 PM »

Would you change the Latin Churces in anyway?
Personally, i would change a few things in the Latin Church. for example, I would ban the monkey Masses, the clown Masses, the Chinese dragon Masses, the Halloween Masses with servers in Satanic outfits, the Peter, PAul and Mary folk music Masses, the charismatic roll on the floor and scream and blabber Masses, etc. And I don;t like rock music, I like the sacred traditional Byzantine chant or the Gregorian chant. Why do the Latin Churches need to have this horrible profane rock and roll music for their Masses?
Logged
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2008, 02:17:40 AM »

Personally, i would change a few things in the Latin Church. for example, I would ban the monkey Masses, the clown Masses, the Chinese dragon Masses, the Halloween Masses with servers in Satanic outfits, the Peter, PAul and Mary folk music Masses, the charismatic roll on the floor and scream and blabber Masses, etc. And I don;t like rock music, I like the sacred traditional Byzantine chant or the Gregorian chant. Why do the Latin Churches need to have this horrible profane rock and roll music for their Masses?

*sigh* brother a lot of the things you just mentioned are not the "Latin Churches" fault but rather innovations by fringe groups.
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2008, 02:59:16 AM »

*sigh* brother a lot of the things you just mentioned are not the "Latin Churches" fault but rather innovations by fringe groups.

That's one view. Another is that the "fringe groups" are now the majority and the exception has become the rule.
Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,064



« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2008, 03:06:15 AM »

Personally, i would change a few things in the Latin Church. for example, I would ban the monkey Masses, the clown Masses, the Chinese dragon Masses, the Halloween Masses with servers in Satanic outfits, the Peter, PAul and Mary folk music Masses, the charismatic roll on the floor and scream and blabber Masses, etc. And I don;t like rock music, I like the sacred traditional Byzantine chant or the Gregorian chant. Why do the Latin Churches need to have this horrible profane rock and roll music for their Masses?

First off the only place I have ever seen any of the above things is on the internet and even at that there really isn't proof that the events were taking place in actual Roman Catholic Churches.  See the word traditional gets thrown around all the time but it really doesn't mean anything other than the individual using its consumer-based thought process of what pleases him the most, which also is the argument the "traditionalists" have against the rock and roll masses, that those individuals are using that sort of music to suit their own personal consumerism like me me me tastes.  The only place I have seen Byzantine Chant used in the Roman Catholic Church is the modified Byzantine Chant used for the Sanctus..etc... found in most music books in the pews in almost every Roman Catholic church I've been too, and those use the current Missal.
Logged

username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,064



« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2008, 03:08:15 AM »

That's one view. Another is that the "fringe groups" are now the majority and the exception has become the rule.

Explain.  At least give us a sampling of 1000 Roman Catholic parishes in your country to visit that you would claim have had the fringe group take over so we could at least see in person if these claims are true.
Logged

Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2008, 12:00:45 PM »

Explain.  At least give us a sampling of 1000 Roman Catholic parishes in your country to visit that you would claim have had the fringe group take over so we could at least see in person if these claims are true.

You have access to phone books?  Look under 'Churches - Catholic'  and pick a parish at random.  That should suffice, particularly if you utilize a southern California phone book.  Roll Eyes

You could also travel to Oahu and watch "Dancing Larry" (as he is known locally) Silva, RC Bishop of Honolulu, as he twirls around the altar at youth mass. In fact, tomorrow is the annual 'Youth Day' event and I am sure he will be performing at one point or another for the visiting teens from New York & Texas.  That last minute airline ticket is going to cost you dearly though.  Wink

On a more serious note, I can give you pointers to at least 11 Catholic Religious Orders that have practicing Zen-Catholic priests and/or religious.  I'll dig out the links once I get home from work this evening and post 'em if you are in doubt.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 01:01:04 PM by Heracleides » Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #77 on: July 11, 2008, 12:59:31 PM »

That's one view. Another is that the "fringe groups" are now the majority and the exception has become the rule.

Do you think it's fair to criticize a group because some people abuse and disregard the rules and teachings of that group?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 01:00:33 PM by theistgal » Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #78 on: July 11, 2008, 01:04:44 PM »

Do you think it's fair to criticize a group because some people abuse and disregard the rules and teachings of that group?

When the abuse is widespread and little or nothing is done on a local level to rectify the sacrilege (especially when those with the ability to rectify the abuse are thus engaged themselves or simply turn a blind eye), then the answer to your question is a resounding YES.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 01:05:34 PM by Heracleides » Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #79 on: July 11, 2008, 01:07:15 PM »

When the abuse is widespread and little or nothing is done on a local level to rectify the sacrilege (especially when those with the ability to rectify the abuse are thus engaged themselves or simply turn a blind eye), then the answer to your question is a resounding YES.

So do you believe that Pope Benedict is engaged in abuse himself, or turning a blind eye to it?
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #80 on: July 11, 2008, 01:10:06 PM »

So do you believe that Pope Benedict is engaged in abuse himself, or turning a blind eye to it?

Visit any American RC parish and will find that your Uber Bishop and his views are largely irrelevant when examined in light of actual practice of your faith on the local level.
Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,064



« Reply #81 on: July 11, 2008, 01:48:48 PM »

You have access to phone books?  Look under 'Churches - Catholic'  and pick a parish at random.  That should suffice, particularly if you utilize a southern California phone book.  Roll Eyes

You could also travel to Oahu and watch "Dancing Larry" (as he is known locally) Silva, RC Bishop of Honolulu, as he twirls around the altar at youth mass. In fact, tomorrow is the annual 'Youth Day' event and I am sure he will be performing at one point or another for the visiting teens from New York & Texas.  That last minute airline ticket is going to cost you dearly though.  Wink

On a more serious note, I can give you pointers to at least 11 Catholic Religious Orders that have practicing Zen-Catholic priests and/or religious.  I'll dig out the links once I get home from work this evening and post 'em if you are in doubt.

Please share those links!

Here are the no-nos I have seen lately in Roman Catholic Churches..... coming from a guy who used to serve mass 5-7 days a week.

-lay people who distribute communion actually communing themselves instead of receiving from the Priest before going to distribute

-lay people performing the ablutions/purification of sacred vessels after communion

That's the biggest no-nos I have seen. I've never witnessed liturgical dancing (well, I guess the Dance of Isiah counts), clown masses, etc...  Perhaps the biggest gripe I EVER had was the responsorial psalm.  It's just a partial psalm.  Then you have one person who CAN NOT sing up front with a microphone belching out the Responsorial psalm.  I always preferred (here goes the I stuff I complain about) the spoken responsorial psalm. 
And yes, "Here I am Lord" is probably one of the best hymns of my generation, and "On Eagles Wings" is as well. 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 01:57:35 PM by username! » Logged

AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #82 on: July 11, 2008, 02:05:22 PM »

Quote
For instance some believe that the filoque clause actually leads theologically to a hierarchy akin to the Roman Catholic church.
Sorry but I was writing in a hurry... and what I wrote was approximative. I know what you mean and I do agree, as two heads in the Trinity could allow for two heads in the Church (Pope and Christ). A TRUE ABOMINATION.
If we should take in consideration many other differences between RC's and OC's we could take an entiry day. RC doctrine has got many differences, such as afterlife, divine energies, sacramental life, canons, mysticism... even the sources for the Bible are very different as Orthodox Christians generally use a different Canon translated by the LXX... But I think that all of these aspects are just the consequences of the Papal role in the Latin Church; if the Church Fathers made an error, was not to evidence that the Papal primacy was only linked to their continuity in faith. Some of them tried to express it (e.g. Ignatius, Clement of Rome and Ireneus substain this primacy on account of their fidelity to the apostolic faith).
The entire concept of faith in the Latin Church has progressively deviated from Truth. How can we be in communion with such a different church?

In Christ,    Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,064



« Reply #83 on: July 11, 2008, 02:11:12 PM »

Sorry but I was writing in a hurry... and what I wrote was approximative. I know what you mean and I do agree, as two heads in the Trinity could allow for two heads in the Church (Pope and Christ). A TRUE ABOMINATION.
If we should take in consideration many other differences between RC's and OC's we could take an entiry day. RC doctrine has got many differences, such as afterlife, divine energies, sacramental life, canons, mysticism... even the sources for the Bible are very different as Orthodox Christians generally use a different Canon translated by the LXX... But I think that all of these aspects are just the consequences of the Papal role in the Latin Church; if the Church Fathers made an error, was not to evidence that the Papal primacy was only linked to their continuity in faith. Some of them tried to express it (e.g. Ignatius, Clement of Rome and Ireneus substain this primacy on account of their fidelity to the apostolic faith).
The entire concept of faith in the Latin Church has progressively deviated from Truth. How can we be in communion with such a different church?

In Christ,    Alex

There is a thread ongoing about the primacy of the Pope of Rome here
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12957.0.html  -username! your friendly section moderator
Logged

theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #84 on: July 11, 2008, 02:30:54 PM »

Visit any American RC parish and will find that your Uber Bishop and his views are largely irrelevant when examined in light of actual practice of your faith on the local level.

Well, I'm in the Byzantine Ruthenian Greek Catholic Rite and haven't seen too many dancing girls at our church lately ... but I'll ask the Bishop if he can find us any, next time he drops by for a visit.  laugh
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #85 on: July 11, 2008, 04:16:22 PM »

Well, I'm in the Byzantine Ruthenian Greek Catholic Rite and haven't seen too many dancing girls at our church lately ... but I'll ask the Bishop if he can find us any, next time he drops by for a visit.  laugh

Why are you attending a Byzantine Rite Parish as opposed to your normal Roman Rite? I can tell you that when I attended my Catholic Parish we had dancing girls.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #86 on: July 11, 2008, 04:32:18 PM »

Why are you attending a Byzantine Rite Parish as opposed to your normal Roman Rite? I can tell you that when I attended my Catholic Parish we had dancing girls.

Well, I married a Byzantine Rite Catholic guy - and I thought it would be nice if we went to church together.  angel

And I never saw any dancing girls at the Lithuanian (Roman) Catholic Church I attended before that.

(Just to clarify - please understand, I'm not doubting you - I know all too well that these abuses exist in too many parishes - but they are definitely abuses and not approved by the RC hierarchy. )
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 04:36:51 PM by theistgal » Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #87 on: July 11, 2008, 05:08:53 PM »

Well, I married a Byzantine Rite Catholic guy - and I thought it would be nice if we went to church together.  angel

And I never saw any dancing girls at the Lithuanian (Roman) Catholic Church I attended before that.

(Just to clarify - please understand, I'm not doubting you - I know all too well that these abuses exist in too many parishes - but they are definitely abuses and not approved by the RC hierarchy. )

I was married in a Black Baptist Church... so you are far more 'orthodox' than me, my friend.  Cheesy
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #88 on: July 11, 2008, 05:32:17 PM »

I was married in a Black Baptist Church... so you are far more 'orthodox' than me, my friend.  Cheesy


Sweet!  Can I quote you on that?  Cheesy
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
James2
Mr.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: skeptic
Posts: 747



« Reply #89 on: July 11, 2008, 06:21:26 PM »

On the contrary, Eastern Catholic Churches (or "Uniates", as somebody called them) share the same beliefs of Rome which are contrary to Orthodox theology. It doesn't matter if they say or not the expression "and from the Son" in the Creed, but they ALLOW FOR IT to be added by their brothers of the Latin Church;

That doesn't seem so different from the situation during the period 500 AD - 1054 AD, when much of the Western Church was using the Filioque and East and West were in full communion.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 06:21:58 PM by James2 » Logged
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2008, 12:26:28 AM »

Please share those links!

Here are those links, taken from a CAF post of mine in the Fall of 2007 (shortly before the CAF pogrom against Orthodox), which was in turn drawn from a post of mine in 2006 on ByzCath (for which I was banned - ya gotta love that Catholic censorship  Roll Eyes ):

Quote
The Catholic Communion is truly Universal in more than one sense of the word. Where else (certainly not amongst the Eastern Orthodox) can one have clerics and religious who are active members of two faiths, being both Catholic and Zen Buddhist?

Where else (aside from the Anglican Communion that is) can one find religious such as Sister Elaine MacInnes, OLM (Our Ladys Missionaries). This 81-year-old Roman Catholic sister is not only a nun but is also a Zen Buddhist Roshi, that is, a Zen Master.

See: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv:80/index.php?id=2,2123,0,0,1,0.

I found the last paragraph from the above interview with Sr. Elaine where she offers thanks for the lax oversight of Rome particularly enlightening: "MacInnes says she receives no flak from Catholic higher-ups for embracing another religion. Thank God they've kept silent," she says with a laugh.


Nor is Sister Elaine alone, as there are at least two other Roshi (Zen Master) sisters that share Sr. MacInnes bi-faith calling: Sr. Janet Richardson, CJSP and Sr. Rosalie McQuade, CJSP (Congregation of the Sisters of St. Joseph of Peace).

See: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv:80/index.php?id=22,2218,0,0,1,0, http://www.zenpeacemakers.org:80/about/bios/janet_bio.htm, http://www.zenpeacemakers.org:80/about/bios/Rosalie_bio.htm, and http://www.csjp.org:80/.

Sr. Janet, besides being a Zen Master, is also a speaker, having offered her thoughts at the 1999 Christ and Buddha: Weaving a Path for a New Millennium gathering at the RC Mercy Center retreat/conference center sponsored by the Sisters of Mercy in Burlingame, California. Sister spoke at two plenary sessions on Christ and Buddha: Language and Symbol of the traditions II and Today & Tomorrow: Weaving a Path for the New Millennium and led the Shikan Taza workshop.

See: http://www.conferencerecording.com:80/newevents/cab99.htm, and http://www.mercy-center.org:80/homepage.html.

Sr. Janet has been busy in other areas as well. Besides assisting Sr. Rosalie along her path to becoming a Roshi, she has also transmitted her Dharma to another sister, making her a Zen Sensei, that is Teacher, this person being Sr. Rose Mary Dougherty, SSND (School Sisters of Notre Dame), who is the Senior Fellow for Spiritual Guidance at the Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation, an ecumenical community founded by an Episcopal priest in Bethesda, Maryland.

See: http://www.zenpeacemakers.org:80/zps/family.htm, http://www.shalem.org:80/about/people/leadersfolder/doughertyrosemary.html, and http://www.shalem.org:80/about/.

On the male religious side, the Catholic Communion is similarly blessed. Witness Priest and Zen Master Fr. Robert Kennedy, SJ (Society of Jesus), who leads Christian Zen retreats where he opines that: "Zen reminds us that Christian contemplation is not a looking at Christ, or a following of Christ, but a transformation into Christ. The practice of Zen restores our participation in the world to direct experience, pure attending, pure consciousness." Heaven forbid that Christ actually be looked to or followed.

See: http://kennedyzen.tripod.com/.

At the above site, scroll down and view the photograph of Fr. Kennedy taken by Br. Brian Rooney, OC (Order of Carmelites). In the photograph, Fr. Kennedy, acting as Zen Roshi (Master), is seen initiating Fr. Kevin Hunt, OCSO (Order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance), a Trappist monk, to the ranks of Sensei (Zen Teacher).

See: http://www.monasticdialog.com:80/au.php?id=94, and http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_34_40/ai_n6127448.

Aside from Fr. Hunt, we also have following in the footsteps of Fr. Kennedy the Redemptorist Priest and Zen Sensei (Teacher) Fr. Greg Mayers, CSSR (Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer) who instructs on the Three Pillars of Zen: Teaching, Practice and Enlightenment.

See: http://www.catholiccitizens.org:80/platform/platformview.asp?c=5948.

Not to be forgotten is a European Jesuit, Fr. Niklaus Brantschen, SJ (Society of Jesus), who as a Roshi has passed on his Dharma in at least one other Catholic religious: Sr. Anna Gamma, StKW (Schwestern vom Katharinenwerk), a.k.a. Sister Zen.

See: http://www.zenpeacemakers.org:80/zps/family.htm, and http://www.spuren.ch:80/archiv/archiv_comments/170_0_45_0_C/, or http://translate.google.com:80/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.spuren.ch/archiv/archiv_comments/170_0_45_0_C/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSchwestern%2Bvom%2BKatharinenwerk%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG.

Then there is another Redemptorist Priest & Roshi, Fr. Patrick Hawk, CSSR (Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer) whom I have previously commented on, so will therefore only list a few links below.

See: http://www.io.com:80/~snewton/zen/7thunders.html, and http://home.comcast.net:80/~seventhunders/aboutthree.html.

Fr. Hawk in turn leads us to his own Roshi, another European, Fr. Willigis Jaeger, OSB (Order of St. Benedict). Aside from being both a Benedictine priest & monk, Fr. Jaeger is also one of the most well known of the Catholic-Zen Maters. This notoriety stems from the fact that in 2002 Cardinal Ratzinger censured Fr. Jaeger, ordering him to cease all public activities, including lectures, courses and publications. This order apparently does not carry much weight, because Fr. Jaeger has just this last August [2006] published: Mysticism for Modern Times: Conversations with Willigis Jaeger (Liguori Publications, 2006-08-21).

See: http://www.willigis-jaeger.de:80/eng/index.html, http://www.natcath.com:80/NCR_Online/archives/030102/030102i.htm, and http://www.willigis-jaeger.de:80/eng/books.html.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 02:39:13 AM by Heracleides » Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,742


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2008, 04:55:47 AM »

While not RC, there is a Seattle Episcopalian female priest, who is also a Moslem imam. In her words, she is "100% Christian and 100% Moslem. Go figure.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html
Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2008, 05:07:28 AM »

Quote
That doesn't seem so different from the situation during the period 500 AD - 1054 AD, when much of the Western Church was using the Filioque and East and West were in full communion.
Sorry but it's not the same. The Patriarch of Rome up to that time never claimed to have the power to impose dogmas to the entire Christendom.
If the Orthodox Church should decide (I hope God will avoid this) for a communion with Rome without any change in the Roman beliefs, then I'm leaving the Church. Papal infallibility can't be even tollerated, and being in communion with the Roman Patriarchate is an impossible compromise. If Rome should renounce to this heresy, I'll be the first one to encourage dialogue and even unity. But this doctrine contradicts the essence of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic and Orthodox Church!

About the problem of liturgical novelties such as dancing in the Church I witnessed them personally in the Catholic Parish I attended up to some months ago when I decided to abandon the Roman Church. If you want to dance or do other things like this to praise the Lord, do them OUTSIDE the Eucharist, which is the solemn Mystery of Christ's body and blood and must be respected. The fact is that the local authority (the bishop of Bergamo) almost certainly knows this as our Parish leader has been his personal assistant for years.
The Roman Church must clearly declair that these practices are contrary to the Gospel as they deviate the attention of the faithful from the Mystery of Salvation to those stupid dances and chants. If they don't, it means they tolerate them, and this is no more an abuse but a part of Roman forgeries.

In Christ,    Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2008, 09:14:44 AM »

While not RC, there is a Seattle Episcopalian female priest, who is also a Moslem imam. In her words, she is "100% Christian and 100% Moslem. Go figure.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html
Her words: "I am both Muslim and Christian, just like I'm both an American of African descent and a woman. I'm 100 percent both."

No, that's not at all how it works. Ancestry and gender are two completely unrelated things, as evidenced by the millions who are both. This woman is delusional.

One cannot be both Catholic and Orthodox, just as someone cannot be Christian and Muslim. They are mutually exclusive. I would love for Catholics and Orthodox to be one, but as is it now, it cannot happen. Dual unity is a faerie tale.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2008, 09:52:18 AM »

Her words: "I am both Muslim and Christian, just like I'm both an American of African descent and a woman. I'm 100 percent both."

No, that's not at all how it works. Ancestry and gender are two completely unrelated things, as evidenced by the millions who are both. This woman is delusional.

One cannot be both Catholic and Orthodox, just as someone cannot be Christian and Muslim. They are mutually exclusive. I would love for Catholics and Orthodox to be one, but as is it now, it cannot happen. Dual unity is a faerie tale.

[Tangent]
Just for a note I usually want to listen when someone makes a comment like this because obviously they have a reason to. I then proceeded to read an interview from her and the sentence that to paraphrase said "Jesus is very important he is an important prophet of God but he is not above man" that sentence ended it for me. If she does not believe in the full deity of Christ and only believes in his prophet ability then she can be a Muslim because the beliefs are not different but they are not christian. Also this is thank the lord not a majority opinion in the Episcopalian church.
[/Tangent]
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2008, 10:25:51 PM »

About the problem of liturgical novelties such as dancing in the Church I witnessed them personally in the Catholic Parish I attended up to some months ago when I decided to abandon the Roman Church. If you want to dance or do other things like this to praise the Lord, do them OUTSIDE the Eucharist, which is the solemn Mystery of Christ's body and blood and must be respected. The fact is that the local authority (the bishop of Bergamo) almost certainly knows this as our Parish leader has been his personal assistant for years.
The Roman Church must clearly declair that these practices are contrary to the Gospel as they deviate the attention of the faithful from the Mystery of Salvation to those stupid dances and chants. If they don't, it means they tolerate them, and this is no more an abuse but a part of Roman forgeries.

Yes, I am considerably bothered by these liturgical innovations in the RCC.  I don;t know why they have them. For example, why have the clown Mass? What is the message that they are trying to communicate with the clown Mass? A clown is a living jokester, is he not? So does that mean then that we are not supposed to take the R Catholic Mass seriously? Is that why they have a clown up there? To indicate that this whole thing is one big joke?
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,290


WWW
« Reply #96 on: July 13, 2008, 10:49:35 PM »

Given that His All Holiness will attend the 1,002nd Anniversary of the Baptism of the Kievan Rus into Eastern Orthodoxy

Correction to Reply #63, the 1,020th Anniversary of the Baptism of the Kievan Rus will be commemorated July 27 & 28, 2008.   Embarrassed
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2008, 09:14:18 AM »

[Tangent]
Just for a note I usually want to listen when someone makes a comment like this because obviously they have a reason to. I then proceeded to read an interview from her and the sentence that to paraphrase said "Jesus is very important he is an important prophet of God but he is not above man" that sentence ended it for me. If she does not believe in the full deity of Christ and only believes in his prophet ability then she can be a Muslim because the beliefs are not different but they are not christian. Also this is thank the lord not a majority opinion in the Episcopalian church.
[/Tangent]
Yes, I have noticed that usually people who say outrageous things like that are (1) trying to make a profound point, (2) delusional, or (3) looking for a reaction. Unfortunately, it is relatively certain that she has failed in point #1.

You're right; if she does not believe in the full deity of Christ, then she is not a Christian. She is a Muslim who attends church on Sundays. Good for her to go to church, but I'm afraid it may be assisting her in her delusion at this point, and perhaps it may be better for her to stop going altogether.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,224


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2008, 05:53:07 PM »

Can someone please remind me of something?  What's the OP of this thread?
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,576


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2008, 07:13:11 PM »

Here are those links, taken from a CAF post of mine....
Quote
The Catholic Communion is truly Universal in more than one sense of the word. Where else (certainly not amongst the Eastern Orthodox) can one have clerics and religious who are active members of two faiths, being both Catholic and Zen Buddhist?


And this is a problem because....?  Roll Eyes
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #100 on: July 19, 2008, 08:13:47 AM »

If the Orthodox Church should decide (I hope God will avoid this) for a communion with Rome without any change in the Roman beliefs...

I wouldn't worry about that ever happening.  Cool
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #101 on: July 19, 2008, 08:24:19 AM »

About the problem of liturgical novelties such as dancing in the Church I witnessed them personally in the Catholic Parish...
If you want to dance or do other things like this to praise the Lord, do them OUTSIDE the Eucharist...
The Roman Church must clearly declare that these practices are contrary to the Gospel as they deviate
the attention of the faithful from the Mystery of Salvation to those stupid dances and chants.

While I totally agree and understand what you're getting at, I wouldn't be too quick to say that dancing is inherently un-liturgical.
Our Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters have been dancing in their liturgies for nearly 2 thousand years.
(Definitely not a "novelty" for them Wink)


some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tXEekIBMLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlL_EvFy3SI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjf8F8SYnZ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRsF8_sxDhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVYNZadRE90

even some with children:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nVHH1-IBEs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVOUxSUx8TI

Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #102 on: July 19, 2008, 08:42:05 AM »

While not RC, there is a Seattle Episcopalian female priest, who is also a Moslem imam. In her words, she is "100% Christian and 100% Moslem. Go figure.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html

A correction and a point: First, this article is over a year old.  The lady in question, Ann Holmes Redding, is Not an "imam".  When this story broke, she was suspended from all liturgical functions for a year by the bishop of the diocese where she was canonically resident (Rhode Island).  Since the bishop is now at Lambeth, the suspension has been extended to September. 

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #103 on: July 19, 2008, 05:50:19 PM »

Can someone please remind me of something?  What's the OP of this thread?
Much more along these lines:

One cannot be both Catholic and Orthodox, just as someone cannot be Christian and Muslim. They are mutually exclusive. I would love for Catholics and Orthodox to be one, but as is it now, it cannot happen. Dual unity is a faerie tale.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,224


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #104 on: July 19, 2008, 06:28:00 PM »

Much more along these lines:

Thank you.  I had asked my question as an attempt to return the discussion to its original topic. Wink
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 06:28:45 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #105 on: July 19, 2008, 08:28:26 PM »

Just to clarify your 'correction' & 'point'....


A correction and a point: First, this article is over a year old. [Ok... Now onto your points.]  The lady in question, Ann Holmes Redding, is Not an "imam". [But is indeed an Episcopal Priestess.] When this story broke, she was suspended from all liturgical functions for a year by the bishop of the diocese where she was canonically resident (Rhode Island). [But is embraced by the Episcopal Bishop where she now resides.] Since the bishop is now at Lambeth, the suspension has been extended to September. [Which doubtless leaves this Episcopal Priestess more time to practice her muslim faith.]   Roll Eyes

Ebor
Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #106 on: July 19, 2008, 09:13:41 PM »

Thank you.  I had asked my question as an attempt to return the discussion to its original topic. Wink
You're welcome. I understood, and had attempted the same myself last week.

Sorry but it's not the same. The Patriarch of Rome up to that time never claimed to have the power to impose dogmas to the entire Christendom.
If the Orthodox Church should decide (I hope God will avoid this) for a communion with Rome without any change in the Roman beliefs, then I'm leaving the Church. Papal infallibility can't be even tollerated, and being in communion with the Roman Patriarchate is an impossible compromise. If Rome should renounce to this heresy, I'll be the first one to encourage dialogue and even unity. But this doctrine contradicts the essence of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic and Orthodox Church!
That is exactly the point. By accepting dual unity, we accept either that Christ has two bodies, or that His One Body has been split in two. Either is heretical. If the EP has indeed said what was mentioned in the OP and in this article, that Eastern Catholics can, without any change in belief from Catholics or Orthodox, be in communion with both, then he is guilty of heresy. It may be, though, that the article is giving us that slant, but the EP actually meant something completely different.

In cases like this, it would be useful to know the EP's exact words. Unfortunately with the sources provided, we cannot. I wonder if a transcript of the meeting is available to the general public?
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #107 on: July 19, 2008, 09:25:18 PM »

Did you miss this?
http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=952&tla=en

Quote
PRESS RELEASE

With respect to the recently published articles reporting that allegedly His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew believes that it is possible for the Greek Catholics (Uniates) to have a “double union”, in other words, full communion with Rome as well as with Constantinople, the Ecumenical Patriarchate refutes this inaccurate statement and affirms it was never made.  The Ecumenical Patriarchate repeats its position that full union in faith is a prerequisite for sacramental communion.

At the Patriarchate, the 5th of July 2008
From the Chief Secretariat of the Holy Synod
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #108 on: July 23, 2008, 04:01:05 PM »

Quote
While I totally agree and understand what you're getting at, I wouldn't be too quick to say that dancing is inherently un-liturgical.
Our Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters have been dancing in their liturgies for nearly 2 thousand years.
(Definitely not a "novelty" for them )
That's definitely not the same... I can witness it. All the songs and dances and similar stuff in RC parishes have such a strong Protestant look...
Not to forget that during the homily many priests allow little theatrical representations acted by the children who go at Sunday School, as if they should "teach their parents" some ethical truth (usually "do charity" or "repent"). While as a child I appreciated them, I do agree with those who are disgusted by these things.

About the Eritrean and Ethiopian practices, they must be referred to their historical and spiritual background; being the heirs of the court traditions of the Jews (as Judaism was established through the Queen of Sheba), they tend to use their way to express the faith in God. This also includes traditional chants and dances. I think this is a beautiful tradition because it's not Gospel Music... it's a liturgical, and profoundly sacred music both in text and sound.

In Christ,    Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #109 on: July 23, 2008, 04:49:20 PM »

This is a press release, yes; but it's still not a transcript of his exact words. If you can find me that, I would be quite glad to read it; I myself have not found one. And it is important if we are to understand this situation that we know exactly what was said. "He said, she said" is going to get us nowhere.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #110 on: July 23, 2008, 09:08:53 PM »

This is a press release, yes; but it's still not a transcript of his exact words. If you can find me that, I would be quite glad to read it; I myself have not found one. And it is important if we are to understand this situation that we know exactly what was said. "He said, she said" is going to get us nowhere.
If he never said it,  as the press release claims, then it will be hard to see a transcript of nothing.
Logged

Joseph
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #111 on: August 05, 2008, 05:15:07 PM »

http://www.iht.com/bin/printfriendly.php?id=14830509

Moscow, Kiev both claim victory in Ukraine church dispute

The Associated Press
Monday, July 28, 2008

KIEV, Ukraine: Moscow and Kiev both are claiming victory in a dispute
creating an independent Ukrainian Orthodox church &#151; which Russia
fiercely opposes &#151; after a weekend visit by the spiritual leader of
the world's Orthodox Christians.

Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko is hoping to win recognition of
the local church's independence from Moscow as part of his drive to
shed centuries-long Russian influence. The Russian Orthodox Church
resists losing control over this predominantly Orthodox country of 46
million.

Yushchenko said on his Web site that the spiritual leader of the
world's Orthodox believers has voiced support for the creation of a
local church, independent of the powerful Russian Orthodox Church.

"I am glad that the Patriarch is backing the aspiration of the
Ukrainian people to have its own national local church," Yushchenko
said in a statement. "Such aspirations are in line to all the
principles of a national, state and of course church life."

Yushchenko made the statement Sunday at the end of a three-day visit
by Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, who came to
Kiev to attend massive celebrations marking the 1020 anniversary of
Ukraine's and Russia's conversion to Christianity.

But Mikhail Prokopenko, a spokesman for the Moscow-based Russian
church, disputed Yushchenko's claim. He told The Associated Press on
Monday that a meeting between Russian Patriarch Alexy II and
Bartholomew confirmed that Constantinople recognizes Moscow's
supremacy over the Ukrainian church.

Prokopenko also said that Bartholomew also will not recognize a
breakaway church in Ukraine that has proclaimed its independence and
whose leader has been excommunicated by Alexy.

Bartholomew's office declined immediate comment.

Experts say the Ukrainian church likely will get independence
eventually, like churches in other countries will sizable Orthodox
populations. But an abrupt decision on this could lead to a deep split
between Constantinople and the Russian church, the biggest Orthodox
church in the world, which claims 95 million believers out of the
world's 250 million Orthodox.

===========

Orthodoc


Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,224


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #112 on: August 06, 2008, 05:24:51 PM »

^  Great article, but it addresses the issue of the intra-Orthodox schism in Ukraine, whereas the OP of this thread is about relations between the Orthodox and the Eastern Rite Catholics in Ukraine.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #113 on: August 07, 2008, 08:52:07 AM »

^  Great article, but it addresses the issue of the intra-Orthodox schism in Ukraine, whereas the OP of this thread is about relations between the Orthodox and the Eastern Rite Catholics in Ukraine.
True, but the UGCC does figure into the puzzle, at least from the Ukie view, I think.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 976


« Reply #114 on: August 13, 2008, 03:03:43 PM »

I think this article posted below shows what the Ukrainian Catholic Church really thinks of "unity": loyalty to Rome and joining them.

Quote
http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;24026/

Lviv (RISU) — On 10 August 2008, Fr. Mykhailo Romaniuk, priest of the village of Podusiv, officially made a confession of faith and priestly promises for faithfulness to the Pope of Rome, the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC), and the UGCC Eparchy of Stryi, in western Ukraine’s Lviv Region. Fr. Romaniuk and his faithful, previously of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC), thus joined the UGCC.

The process for the uniting of the two religious communities in Podusiv, Peremyshliany District, was started in 2004 by UGCC Bishop Yulian Gbur.

After making his promises, Fr. Romaniuk joined in concelebrating Liturgy with Bishop Gbur.

The interdenominational reconciliation occurred after a long process of discussions and meetings on the eparchial, regional, and district levels. The Stryi Eparchy initiated discussion of the theme of overcoming interdenominational problems in the Peremyshliany District. On 4 June representatives of the eparchy, the district civil authorities and the priests from Podusiv discussed questions of joint services involving Greek Catholics and Orthodox of the UAOC. On 9 August 2008 at a joint meeting of the two religious communities the need for religious unity in the village was absolutely confirmed. By liquidating the religious community of the UAOC and registering the single community of the UGCC the historical unity which existed until 1946 was renewed.

According to Fr. Pavlo Khud, head of the Press Service of the Stryi Eparchy of the UGCC, the faithful are satisfied with this resolution of the matter, inasmuch as interdenominational disputes in the village ended almost 20 years ago. Their example has started a process of initiatives for uniting which for a long time have been ripening in other parishes of the Stryi Eparchy.

Looks like "overcoming interdenominational problems" means to abandon Orthodoxy and capitulate to Rome.  This is why Ukrainians in other parts of Ukraine have never ever trusted Galicians.  Their ultimate aim is not "ecumenism" or even "double unity" but to destroy the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and make Ukraine Catholic.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,909


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #115 on: August 13, 2008, 07:58:42 PM »

Wow, one UAOC parish goes Catholic.  Sound the alarms. Roll Eyes

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Dyachok
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« Reply #116 on: August 13, 2008, 08:15:16 PM »

"This is why Ukrainians in other parts of Ukraine have never ever trusted Galicians."

This is simply an inflammatory statement - Patriarch Lubomyr and both the UOC-KP and the UAOC are on much better mutual terms than either with the MP.  That is well known both inside and outside Ukraine.  First of all "Rome" had nothing to do with it - they had apparently approached +Yulian some time ago to begin this process. 

Unlike 1946 no one kicked down doors and forced this congregation to join another - much less a minority Church compared to either the UOC-KP or the MP.  You may not like their decision but do not resort to blatant racism because you don't like it.
FDRLB
Logged
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,064



« Reply #117 on: August 13, 2008, 09:46:35 PM »

"This is why Ukrainians in other parts of Ukraine have never ever trusted Galicians."

This is simply an inflammatory statement - Patriarch Lubomyr and both the UOC-KP and the UAOC are on much better mutual terms than either with the MP.  That is well known both inside and outside Ukraine.  First of all "Rome" had nothing to do with it - they had apparently approached +Yulian some time ago to begin this process. 

Unlike 1946 no one kicked down doors and forced this congregation to join another - much less a minority Church compared to either the UOC-KP or the MP.  You may not like their decision but do not resort to blatant racism because you don't like it.
FDRLB

Welcome to the forum FDRLB Wink  Good to have you here!! -username! section moderator
Logged

Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #118 on: August 13, 2008, 11:04:11 PM »

I think this article posted below shows what the Ukrainian Catholic Church really thinks of "unity": loyalty to Rome and joining them.

Looks like "overcoming interdenominational problems" means to abandon Orthodoxy and capitulate to Rome.  This is why Ukrainians in other parts of Ukraine have never ever trusted Galicians.  Their ultimate aim is not "ecumenism" or even "double unity" but to destroy the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and make Ukraine Catholic.


You've hit the nail on the head, which is why you evoked the Catholic angst in the replies above.  Wink
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 11:04:37 PM by Heracleides » Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #119 on: August 14, 2008, 11:56:15 AM »

Wow, one UAOC parish goes Catholic.  Sound the alarms. Roll Eyes

Fr. Deacon Lance

From a Byzcath thread on the same topic Fr. Dn. Lance baits a hook by saying:

Quote
Orest,

Please share you thoughts here, not just oc.net.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Orest - If I didn't know better, I'd say that the good Catholic Deacon was attempting to have you booted from Byzcath.  Grin
Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #120 on: August 14, 2008, 02:41:23 PM »

Comment:  This is simply an inflammatory statement - Patriarch Lubomyr and both the UOC-KP and the UAOC are on much better mutual terms than either with the MP.  That is well known both inside and outside Ukraine.  First of all "Rome" had nothing to do with it - they had apparently approached +Yulian some time ago to begin this process. 


Reply:  If this is indeed true, then it only proves that both Rome & UGCC do not abide by the canons of the first seven ecumenical councils they claim they share with us.  Why?  Because they are willing to discard those canons by recognizing two noncanonical Orthodox jurisdictions that are headed by self proclaimed or defrocked bishops.  Wonder what they would say if we who are canonical Orthodox suddenly decide to be on 'better mutual terms' with the self proclaimed Pope Michael of the Vatican Church In Exile  [http://popemichael.homestead.com/] or SSPX for that  matter.

Orthodoc
   
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 02:46:47 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,909


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #121 on: August 14, 2008, 04:33:44 PM »

From a Byzcath thread on the same topic Fr. Dn. Lance baits a hook by saying:

Orest - If I didn't know better, I'd say that the good Catholic Deacon was attempting to have you booted from Byzcath.  Grin


The Admins have sole discretion on who gets banned and for what.  I just don't think it is honorable to take a post from byzcath run over here with it and make a post like Orest made.  If he is so proud of his post why didn't he make it over there?

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,909


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #122 on: August 14, 2008, 04:41:44 PM »

Reply:  If this is indeed true, then it only proves that both Rome & UGCC do not abide by the canons of the first seven ecumenical councils they claim they share with us.  Why?  Because they are willing to discard those canons by recognizing two noncanonical Orthodox jurisdictions that are headed by self proclaimed or defrocked bishops.  Wonder what they would say if we who are canonical Orthodox suddenly decide to be on 'better mutual terms' with the self proclaimed Pope Michael of the Vatican Church In Exile  [http://popemichael.homestead.com/] or SSPX for that  matter.

Orthodoc

Official recognition and cooperation are two different things.  I also don't think it fair to lump the UAOC and KP together.  The Ecumenical Patriarch granted autocephaly to the UAOC and charged the Metropolitan of Warsaw to oversee this, which is why the UOC in the US and Canada are under the EP's Omofor.  That Russia and the MP chose to ignore this and liquidate the UAOC as they did the UGCC is not a glowing mark on their record.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #123 on: August 14, 2008, 05:36:26 PM »

Official recognition and cooperation are two different things.  I also don't think it fair to lump the UAOC and KP together.  The Ecumenical Patriarch granted autocephaly to the UAOC and charged the Metropolitan of Warsaw to oversee this, which is why the UOC in the US and Canada are under the EP's Omofor.   That Russia and the MP chose to ignore this and liquidate the UAOC as they did the UGCC is not a glowing mark on their record.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Can you provide a copy of the Tomos where the EP granted autocephally to the UAOC?  Seems if this were indeed the case, he would have mentioned it a few weeks ago while visiting ukraine by stating he supports the Tomos of autocephally issued by one of his predessors rather than recognizing the canonical order of the UOC-MP.

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,909


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #124 on: August 14, 2008, 09:37:36 PM »

Orthodoc,

With the Soviet invasion this tomos came to naught and the EP accepted the UAOC's reintergration into the MP.  The UAOC's situation is not unlike that of the Estonian Orthodox Church, which also received its tomos in 1923, a year before the UAOC did.  The EP accepted the Estonian Church's reintergration into the MP, until Estonia was free and renewed the tomos.  I believe this is what the UAOC wants from the EP, but of course the EP is wary of doing this. 

Orthodox Wiki documents the Ukrainian tomos, of course one could dispute whether the EP had the right to grant the tomos at all.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ukrainian_Autocephalous_Orthodox_Church

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #125 on: August 15, 2008, 12:52:02 AM »

Orthodoxwiki 'documentation' w/o documents?
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #126 on: August 15, 2008, 02:10:20 AM »

Orthodoxwiki 'documentation' w/o documents?

You got it!   Fr Deacon Lance seems to be basing his replies on what he reads on the UAOC website.  It's funny when you click on the part in blue that talks about this so called Tomos of autocephally or the Ecumenical Patriarch that supposedly granted it, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING COMES UP TO VALIDATE IT!

So we can't always believe what we read or statements made on the website of any wayward religious organization be they Orthodox Catholic or Roman Catholic.  Otherwise we would all be here defending the statements made by Pope Michael against the present Pope who resides in the Vatican.

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #127 on: August 15, 2008, 03:33:20 AM »

You got it!   Fr Deacon Lance seems to be basing his replies on what he reads on the UAOC website.  It's funny when you click on the part in blue that talks about this so called Tomos of autocephally or the Ecumenical Patriarch that supposedly granted it, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING COMES UP TO VALIDATE IT!

So we can't always believe what we read or statements made on the website of any wayward religious organization be they Orthodox Catholic or Roman Catholic.  Otherwise we would all be here defending the statements made by Pope Michael against the present Pope who resides in the Vatican.

Orthodoc

Umm.. don't you mean the present anti-Pope who resides in the Vatican?   Wink
Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #128 on: August 15, 2008, 03:44:20 AM »

Umm.. don't you mean the present anti-Pope who resides in the Vatican?   Wink

Chuckle...
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,909


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #129 on: August 15, 2008, 07:17:28 AM »

Last time I checked Orthodox Wiki wasn't the UAOC's  site.  I don't have documentation of the Estonians tomos either are you going to deny it too. If you don't believe me ask a UOC-USA member/cleric.  Many of their people descend from the UAOC.  Archbishop Vsevolod of eternal memory was of this lineage.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #130 on: August 15, 2008, 08:32:28 AM »

Last time I checked Orthodox Wiki wasn't the UAOC's  site.  I don't have documentation of the Estonians tomos either are you going to deny it too. If you don't believe me ask a UOC-USA member/cleric.  Many of their people descend from the UAOC.  Archbishop Vsevolod of eternal memory was of this lineage.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Fr Deacon:

The fact that even the EP himself no longer supports or upholds this so called Tomos (which no one can find) in itself invalidates the claims of the UAOC to be canonical.  Not one canonical Orthodox Catholic Church in the world supports or recognizes them. If they are in fact canonical and recognized bt the EP then why are did so many of the UAOC members here in North America chose to leave the UAOC  and go under the EP as you yourself state?  Could it have been so that they would now fall within canonical Orhodoxy rather than be considered noncanonical? 

Orthodoc
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 08:34:05 AM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #131 on: August 15, 2008, 03:13:16 PM »

Wonder what they would say if we who are canonical Orthodox suddenly decide to be on 'better mutual terms' with the self proclaimed Pope Michael of the Vatican Church In Exile  [http://popemichael.homestead.com/] or SSPX for that  matter.   

If I were you, I wouldn't try that with them. They'll probably immediately demand you convert and repent of your "heresy" and schism, and then, following your refusal, solemnly banish you to the outer darkness.  Cheesy
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,909


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #132 on: August 15, 2008, 10:17:32 PM »

Fr Deacon:

The fact that even the EP himself no longer supports or upholds this so called Tomos (which no one can find) in itself invalidates the claims of the UAOC to be canonical.  Not one canonical Orthodox Catholic Church in the world supports or recognizes them. If they are in fact canonical and recognized bt the EP then why are did so many of the UAOC members here in North America chose to leave the UAOC  and go under the EP as you yourself state?  Could it have been so that they would now fall within canonical Orhodoxy rather than be considered noncanonical? 

Orthodoc

Orthodoc,

Choose to leave? Their mother church was liquidated by the Soviets what choice did they have?  Even at that in the US and Canada their were two Ukrainian jurisdictions a piece.  One composed of former Greek Catholics who left Rome  when celibacy was enforced, and were the larger group, and those who were UAOC.  Going under the EP was about uniting the Ukrainian jurisdictions not rejecting the UAOC.  Archbishop Vsevolod succeded Patriarch Mystyslav.  Do you think he thought him uncanonical?  Lack of formal recognition for the UAOC is all about politics with the MP.  The EP and the UO Churches of Canada and the USA under him can't formally recognize the UAOC or the MP will break with the EP, causing problems for all of Orthodoxy.

Fr. Deacon Lance 
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #133 on: August 16, 2008, 07:46:04 AM »

Orthodoc,

Choose to leave? Their mother church was liquidated by the Soviets what choice did they have?  Even at that in the US and Canada their were two Ukrainian jurisdictions a piece.  One composed of former Greek Catholics who left Rome  when celibacy was enforced, and were the larger group, and those who were UAOC.  Going under the EP was about uniting the Ukrainian jurisdictions not rejecting the UAOC.  Archbishop Vsevolod succeded Patriarch Mystyslav.  Do you think he thought him uncanonical? (1) Lack of formal recognition for the UAOC is all about politics with the MP.  (2) The EP and the UO Churches of Canada and the USA under him can't formally recognize the UAOC or the MP will break with the EP, causing problems for all of Orthodoxy.Fr. Deacon Lance 

(1)  It's part politics but the other part is caused by the fact that the EP, partly because of his insecurities regarding his patriarchate in Istanbul (Constantinople), and the future of that patriarchate due to Turkish determination to wipe it out, has chosen to interfere in the administrative  functions of other patriarchates to boost his power and authority.

(2)  If what you say is true than why would the EP chose to honor the so called Tomos regarding the Estonian Church (which wasn't his to give) and not honor the so called Tomos given to the Ukrainians all around the same time and for the same reasons?  Why would he back one but not the other?  If the EP was afraid of causing disunity amongst the Orthodox patriarchates then why has he tried to take over Russian Orthodox Churches in western Europe (Example:  The RO Cathedral in Prague which was thrown out of court). Or play church politics with the MP regarding the Estonian Church he claims authority over?  Or why is he causing problems between himself and both the Jerusalem patriarchate, and the Antionchian patriatchate?  His actions seem to indicate that he has no worries regarding Orthodox unity when it comes to his quest for power and security.

Orthodoc
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 07:49:19 AM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,909


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #134 on: August 16, 2008, 11:38:02 AM »

Orthodoc,

My opinion, the EP knows Ukraine will be the straw that broke the camels back.  The MP has tolerated Estonia, Western Europe, and America but not what it considers its backyard, Ukraine.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #135 on: August 16, 2008, 12:03:44 PM »

If I were you, I wouldn't try that with them. They'll probably immediately demand you convert and repent of your "heresy" and schism, and then, following your refusal, solemnly banish you to the outer darkness.  Cheesy

Such would be the more authentic Catholic stance, rather than the post Vatican II twaddle.  Rather than detracting from Pope Michael, what you surmise above would actually seem to legitimize him, insofar as he would be holding to the historic Catholic position of the last millennium much more faithfully than your Pope Benedict.   Wink
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 12:04:32 PM by Heracleides » Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #136 on: August 17, 2008, 06:04:19 PM »

Orthodoc,

My opinion, the EP knows Ukraine will be the straw that broke the camels back.  The MP has tolerated Estonia, Western Europe, and America but not what it considers its backyard, Ukraine.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I agree!  However, the EP is also quite aware that not one canonical Orthodox Church in the world recognizes the UAOC or this Tomos no one seems th be able to produce.

Orthodoc
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 06:06:09 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,411



« Reply #137 on: August 17, 2008, 10:25:57 PM »

Just to clarify your 'correction' & 'point'....

Well, she has the rest of her life to "practice her Muslim faith", no matter what any bishop does. And inasmuch as she remains an Episcopal priest, she is not permitted to exercise her office. So those parts I don't think could be considered corrections as much as they are belaborings of certain points.

That the bishop of the diocese in which she physically resides is scandalous hardly needs belaboring. Scandalous bishops, however, are not hard to come by.
Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,747



« Reply #138 on: August 17, 2008, 10:40:35 PM »

Pope Michael...hmm, don't bogart that joint my friend, pass it over to me...
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Acolyte
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Jurisdictionalism is sin.
Posts: 202



« Reply #139 on: September 08, 2008, 01:42:11 AM »

I remember when this was called the Zoghby Initiative:
http://kalamation.com/HolyLand/ZoghbyUnity.html

While I agree with most of its proposals, I don't know why it's appropriate now if it wasn't then.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,909


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #140 on: October 28, 2008, 06:03:55 PM »

After doing some research it appears the UAOC's claim to autocephaly relies on the Tomos given to the Polish Orthodox Church.  Now before anyone starts, we all know the "Polish" Orthodox Church is comprised almost entirely of Ukrainians and Belarusans.  So it seems the UAOC which emerged in Western Ukraine (which was not part of the Soviet Union at the time of the Tomos of 1924) during WWII, saw their right to autocephaly as a logical extension of the grant to the Polish Orthodox Church.  If the Ukrainian Orthodox of Poland, no longer part of Russia, were autocephalous, the Ukrainian Orthodox of Ukraine, also no longer part of Russia, should be autocephalous too.  They also see the autonomy of the Metropolitans of Kyiv and the Metropolitans of Halych as giving them precedent.  Many of the UAOC members were former Greek Catholics which also probably didn't endear the MP to them.  Finally the support given them by the Polish Orthodox Church (Metropolitan Dionisij ordained them bishops) encouraged them.

The Tomos:

+GREGORIOS VII, by the grace of God Archbishop of Constantinople -the New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch

The Holy Orthodox Church in the God-Protected Polish State, endowed with an autonomous system and administration and proving its firmness in faith, zealousness by charitable works has requested our Holy Apostolic and Ecumenical Patriarchal See to bless and confirm its autocephalous administrative system, considering that in the new circumstances of political life, only such a system can satisfy and guarantee its needs.

Examining this request with love, taking into consideration the structions of the holy canons, which have established that the system of church affairs should correspond with the political and community forms (IV Ecumenical Council, canon 17, VI Ecumenical Council, canon 38), as well as the reasoning of Photius: "It is acceptable that laws which relate to church affairs, and especially parish matters, should correspond with political and administrative changes", from another point of view, bowing before the demands of canonical obligations, which impose upon our Holy Ecumenical See concern for Orthodox Churches, who are in need; considering also the fact, which is not contradicted by history (for it is recorded that the first separation from our See of the Kyivan Metropolia and the Orthodox Metropolia of Lithuania and Poland, dependent upon it, as well as their incorporation within the Holy Moscovite Church was accomplished contrary to canon law, as also all that which was agreed upon regarding the full church autonomy of the Kyivan Metropolitan, who at the time had the title Exarch of the Ecumenical See), We and our Holy Metropolitans, Our beloved brothers and co-workers in the Holy Spirit, considered it our obligation to give ear to the request presented to Us by the Holy Orthodox Church in Poland and to give Our blessing and approval to its autocephalous and independent administration.

As a consequence of this conciliar decision, following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, We have decided: to recognize an autocephalic administration for the Orthodox Church in Poland and give our blessings to this, so that from this day on It may be governed as a spiritual Sister, and decided Its affairs independently and in an autocephalic manner, according to the regulations and unlimited rights of other Holy Autocephalic Orthodox Churches, recognizing as its Supreme Church Authority, the Holy Synod, composed of orthodox canonical bishops in Poland, whose president shall at all times be the Blessed Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland. To preserve and canonically maintain united with Our Holy Apostolic Ecumenical Patriarchal See, as well as with all other Autocephalic Orthodox Churches, We mention here the obligations which every Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland will have: ie. to inform, according to the regulations of the Holy Orthodox, of his election and enthronization by an enthronization letter Our Great Christian Church as well as all other Autocephalous Orthodox Sister-Churches: To retain everything related to a firm maintenance of the Faith and Orthodox piety, as well as all that is commanded by the holy canons and regulations of the Orthodox Church; to also commemorate in accordance with regulations in the Diptychs the name of the Ecumenical Patriarch and other Patriarchs as well as the Hierarchs of other Autocephalic Churches. In addition to this we decree, that the Autocephalous Orthodox Sister-Church in Poland must obtain its Holy Myrh (oil) from Our Great Christian Church. We advise at this time, that in matters concerning church order and in matters of a more general nature, which are beyond the jurisdictional limits of every Autocephalous Church acting individually, that the Blessed Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland to apply to Our Holy Ecumenical Patriarchal See, through whose mediation union with every Orthodox Church, "... rightly teaching the word of truth" and request authoritive opinions and help from Sister-Churches.

Having carefully reviewed and considered all this at canonical meetings of the Holy Synod on the sixth and eleventh of November, 1924, We have entrusted, after the approval of the Synod, this Synodical and Patriarchal Tomos, accurately and unalteredly copied, as it is recorded in the Codex of Our Great Christian Church, to the Blessed +DIONISIJ, Our beloved brother and co-worker in Christ, Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland and President of the Holy Synod of the Autocephalic Orthodox Church in Poland.

May the Lord God strengthen unto the ages, by the grace and merits of the First Great and Supreme Pastor, Christ our God, the Autocephalous Sister-Church in Poland, so fortunately organized, may He raise and increase everything in it to the glory of His Holy Name, for the benefit of Its pious flock and for the joy of all Autocephalous Orthodox Sister Churches.



In the year of Our Lord 1924, November 13th.

The Patriarch of Constantinople, +GREGORIOS VII (Approved).
The Metropolitan of Kiza, +KALYNYK
The Metropolitan of Sardia and Pisidia, +HERMAN
The Metropolitan of Nicea, BASIL
The Metropolitan of Chaldea, +JOAKIM
The Metropolitan of Philadelphia, +PHOTIUS
The Metropolitan of Derkos, +CONSTANTINE
The Metropolitan of Syliria, +EUGENE
The Metropolitan of Brus, +NICODEMOUS
The Metropolitan of Rodopolia, +CYRIL
The Metropolitan of the Princes Islands, +AHAFANAHEL
The Metropolitan of Neocesarea, +AMBROSIOS
The Metropolitan of Anea, +THOMAS

The Ecumenical Patriarchate, November 13, 1924
Chancellor HERMAN, Metropolitan of Sardia

« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 06:05:09 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,224


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #141 on: October 28, 2008, 06:28:10 PM »

^ How does the above relate to Eastern Catholic churches inside or outside Ukraine?  At first glance, this article appears to speak only of an autocephalous Orthodox presence in Poland and the precedent seen in this by the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.  But maybe I'm reading it wrong.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,909


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #142 on: October 28, 2008, 06:36:29 PM »

I agree!  However, the EP is also quite aware that not one canonical Orthodox Church in the world recognizes the UAOC or this Tomos no one seems th be able to produce.

Sorry, it doesn't it was in response to Orthodoc.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #143 on: August 06, 2011, 06:47:19 AM »

Isn`t this similar to what happened in Transylvania?the Eastern Orthodox(?) there entering in communion with Rome and the pope because they considered this piety good, yet keeping their doctrines?
Logged
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #144 on: August 06, 2011, 07:19:52 AM »

If this is true, there definintely needs to be an Ecumenical Council so that he can be deposed.

What else can one expect from an Orthodox Patriarch 'educated' at a Catholic institution in Rome?  He should have been deposed long ago.
.
The Ecumenical Patriarch does not appear to regard Latin or Eastern Catholics as heterodox.  He appears in his actions, words and attendance at numerous ecumenical events to accept the validity of the orders, sacraments and ministry of the Roman Catholic Church.  Why else does he attend so many Roman Catholic services, in which he exchanges the peace etc etc.  These actions imply recognition.  Of course he could have his fingers crossed behind his back, but to the faithful this looks like a sellout of Orthodoxy by the very patriarch who is trying to spread his brand of Orthodoxy throughout the world, including stepping into Russian Orthodox territory in Estonia, China and elsewhere. 
Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #145 on: August 06, 2011, 08:19:36 AM »

Huh?
Didn't we debunk this three years ago?
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #146 on: August 06, 2011, 08:22:04 AM »

Huh?
Didn't we debunk this three years ago?

It is amazing how people will proclaim themselves experts on a topic and then ignore all evidence contradictory to their position.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,661



« Reply #147 on: August 06, 2011, 02:57:42 PM »

Isn`t this similar to what happened in Transylvania?the Eastern Orthodox(?) there entering in communion with Rome and the pope because they considered this piety good, yet keeping their doctrines?
No.  The Unholy Germanic Emperor Leopold declared the Orthodox of Transylvania annexed to the Vatican, and tried to make good the policy of "exterminating the schismatic Vlachs."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #148 on: August 06, 2011, 03:32:16 PM »

Isn`t this similar to what happened in Transylvania?the Eastern Orthodox(?) there entering in communion with Rome and the pope because they considered this piety good, yet keeping their doctrines?
No.  The Unholy Germanic Emperor Leopold declared the Orthodox of Transylvania annexed to the Vatican, and tried to make good the policy of "exterminating the schismatic Vlachs."

what are you saying that the Orthodox in Transylvania were brought in communion with the Pope against their will?
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #149 on: August 06, 2011, 05:29:58 PM »

Isn`t this similar to what happened in Transylvania?the Eastern Orthodox(?) there entering in communion with Rome and the pope because they considered this piety good, yet keeping their doctrines?
No.  The Unholy Germanic Emperor Leopold declared the Orthodox of Transylvania annexed to the Vatican, and tried to make good the policy of "exterminating the schismatic Vlachs."
After WWII, in Transylvania, under communism, Greek Catholic Churches were closed and Greek Catholics were absorbed into the Orthodox Church. Churches which were built by Greek Catholics became Orthodox overnight. Then, after communism collapsed in 1989, Greek Catholics were allowed to build their own Churches; however, many of the formerly Greek Catholic Church buildings remained with the ORthodox Church. Many of the Greek Catholics stropped going to the ORthodox Churches and began attending the Greek Catholic Churches. There was no one forcing them to attend the Greek Catholic Churches.
Logged
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #150 on: August 06, 2011, 06:04:12 PM »

I am from Transylvania.My grandparents were Greek Catholics or whatever it is called in english..  I always had a great religious feeling when I was at them, and the whole vilage was the role model of christianity... It is a special place even now... It is nothing wrong of being in communion with Rome and Orthodoxy at the same time... it is one of the most uplifting religious sentiments... I do not feel that sentiment in an Orthodox Church.I definately feel something is missing in comparision with that.Anyway the Church in there now is Orthodox.. My grandparents are dead..  But they still have icons with devotions to Jesus' and Mary's hearts in their home..  that house gives me a good sentiment every time i go there...   I remmeber a granny relative saying that people Orthodox and Catholics "pulled of a priest" one in one side one in the other... Anyway I thought it would be good to share this... there is no greater religious sentiment than that in my life... At the death of my grandmother, God give her rest, I saw the Holy Mother of God standing with her arms open bestowing light, like a sun shines through the window with power in the morning, and above her was green pasture and a tree..

U-word removed - MK.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 11:59:05 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 976


« Reply #151 on: August 08, 2011, 11:53:24 AM »

I thought in Romania in the 1990's, a vote was taken in each parish and the local people decided if they wanted to be Orthodox or Catholic?
Logged
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #152 on: August 08, 2011, 11:57:11 AM »

I thought in Romania in the 1990's, a vote was taken in each parish and the local people decided if they wanted to be Orthodox or Catholic?

I dunno i was young then.A granny who was family may her reast peacefully spoke of the priest of the village being fought on by both Orthodox and Catholics Smiley... Now that is cool... B-)
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #153 on: February 02, 2012, 11:54:34 PM »

Huh?
Didn't we debunk this three years ago?

Yes ... well, three-and-a-half now.

But was there ever a full explanation? I mean, I realize that it turned out that the EP didn't say what they said he said, but did anyone ever say why they said that he said what they said he said?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #154 on: February 03, 2012, 10:52:53 AM »

Ukrainian Catholic larping.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,425


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #155 on: February 03, 2012, 11:05:52 AM »

Ukrainian Catholic larping.

I'm an old guy, does that mean 'fantisizing'?  Is it the same as Live Action Role Playing?
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #156 on: February 03, 2012, 11:09:05 AM »

Yes.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,425


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #157 on: February 03, 2012, 11:28:26 AM »

Yes.

Thanks! I agree and it is part of the odd 'omelette' cooking in Ukraine these days - religion stirred with nationalism and regional aspirations.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #158 on: February 03, 2012, 11:54:27 AM »

Ukrainian Catholics realise that they are generally ignored by the Orthodox Church and the Vatican. So from time to time they pop out with bizarre ideas like "dual unity" or "one Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" to make sure that they are not forgotten and they get the attention they need.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 11:55:59 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,425


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #159 on: February 03, 2012, 11:56:46 AM »

Ukrainian Catholics realise that they are generally ignored by the Orthodox Church and the Vatican. So from time to time they pop out with bizarre ideas like "dual unity" or "one Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" to make sure that they are not forgotten and they get the attention they need.

They have political friends within the UOC-KP and the UOAC, politics makes strange bedfellows we say in English.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #160 on: February 03, 2012, 10:46:05 PM »

Huh?
Didn't we debunk this three years ago?

Indeed, plus I just realized that we also revisited it just 2 months before you asked that question:

No it is not on the horizon.  Remember about 3 years ago the Eastern catholics claimed that the EP agreed to "dual communion".  A totally false claim.

Yes, I do recall that. But as I understand it, it was pretty innocent -- a matter of misunderstanding without intention to deceive.

Doesn't really pertain to my question anyhow.

In what way was it innocent?  A story was made up about the EP saying in an interview that he agreed to "dual communion" between Eastern catholics and Orthodox.  He did not say this.  There is no record of his saying this in print and the EP denied he ever said it.

My memory is a little rusty on the details, so I went looking to see what I said about it at the time:

06-20-2008 (the day after the Catholic World News article Orthodox leader suggests "dual unity" for Eastern Catholics)
Quote
Have any of you seen the text of the actual interview? I'd very much like to read it (even if only an automatic translation from German).

06-21-2008
Quote
Something I was just thinking: RISU and CWNews are well-known, reputable news sources. But I've never heard of this German ecumenical journal called "Cyril and Methodius".

I don't doubt that it exists, but is it a reputable journal? Is it possible that "Cyril and Methodius" printed a fictional interview? Seems unlikely, but I can't rule it out.

06-21-2008
Quote
You know ... I'm starting to think this will turn out to be pretty simple. Namely, that the EP was simply saying that, relatively speaking, we are closer to seeing a "dual communion" situation than we are to seeing full communion between Rome and Constantinople. (That doesn't in any way imply that the EP thinks "dual communion" can happen now.)

(I also posted a message on 06-22-2008, but just to say that the text of the interview didn't appear to be available online.)

(I'm sure you can tell that I don't like quoting my own posts. Grin)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #161 on: February 03, 2012, 10:53:41 PM »

On the other hand, it would appear that not everyone was interested in "debunking" it.

Is anyone here a follower of Fr. Z's "What does the prayer really say?" The reason I ask is that his thread on this topic, which is 48 posts long, contains no mention of the fact that the story turned out to be wrong!

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/06/bartholomew-i-to-eastern-catholics-return-to-orthodoxy-without-breaking-with-rome/
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,909


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #162 on: February 04, 2012, 12:36:54 AM »

Ukrainian Catholics realise that they are generally ignored by the Orthodox Church and the Vatican. So from time to time they pop out with bizarre ideas like "dual unity" or "one Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" to make sure that they are not forgotten and they get the attention they need.

Except it was CWN not the UGCC that floated the article that caused this thread.  And I am quite sure the UGCC wishes the Russian Orthodox and Vatican would ignore them.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,425


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #163 on: February 04, 2012, 12:41:37 AM »

Ukrainian Catholics realise that they are generally ignored by the Orthodox Church and the Vatican. So from time to time they pop out with bizarre ideas like "dual unity" or "one Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" to make sure that they are not forgotten and they get the attention they need.

Except it was CWN not the UGCC that floated the article that caused this thread.  And I am quite sure the UGCC wishes the Russian Orthodox and Vatican would ignore them.

Upon that statement, Fr. Deacon we surely can agree. I suspect that the UGCC has their own version of Teyve's famous prayer for the Tsar - one which includes the MP and the Holy Father - keep them both dear Lord, far away from us!
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #164 on: February 04, 2012, 08:22:56 AM »

Ukrainian Catholics realise that they are generally ignored by the Orthodox Church and the Vatican. So from time to time they pop out with bizarre ideas like "dual unity" or "one Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" to make sure that they are not forgotten and they get the attention they need.

Except it was CWN not the UGCC that floated the article that caused this thread.

RISU, not CWN.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #165 on: February 04, 2012, 08:57:29 AM »

Ukrainian Catholics realise that they are generally ignored by the Orthodox Church and the Vatican. So from time to time they pop out with bizarre ideas like "dual unity" or "one Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" to make sure that they are not forgotten and they get the attention they need.

Except it was CWN not the UGCC that floated the article that caused this thread.

RISU, not CWN.

You're both right, and you're both wrong. CWN based it's article on RISU

Quote from: CWN
Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople welcomed the proposal in an interview with the magazine Cyril and Methodius, the RISU news service reports.

who based their article on the website kath.net

Quote from: RISU
According to the Orthodox hierarch, the form of coexistence of the Byzantine Church and the Roman Church in the 1st century of Christianity should be used as a model of unity. This story was posted by KATH.net on 16 June 2008.

Neither CWN nor RISU had, at that point, read the interview in Cyril and Methodius.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Tags: ecumenism 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.457 seconds with 192 queries.