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Author Topic: EP suggests "dual unity" for Eastern Catholics?  (Read 26024 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 19, 2008, 06:09:56 PM »

Orthodox leader suggests "dual unity" for Eastern Catholics:

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Constantinople, Jun. 19, 2008 (CWNews.com) - The Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople has responded favorably to a suggestion by the head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church for a system of "dual unity" in which Byzantine Catholic churches would be in full communion with both Constantinople and Rome.

More: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=59186

Is this possible from an Orthodox perspective?
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2008, 06:35:56 PM »

From the Orthodox perspective, the papacy of Rome and all those in Communion with him are in schism from the Church of Jesus Christ.  Therefore, anyone of the Eastern Rite who enters into communion with Rome must leave the Church to do so.  This means total severing of communion with the Orthodox Church of which His All-Holiness is a bishop and patriarch.  Thus, the answer to your question is, "No, dual unity of the Byzantine Rite Catholics with Rome and Constantinople is NOT possible."

As an aside, I suppose His All-Holiness can make the decision to recognize Byzantine Rite Catholics as being in communion with us, but I don't think anyone outside of his direct jurisdiction will ever honor such a decision.
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2008, 07:19:38 PM »

I'm very suprised that Pat. Bartholomew would "respond favorably" to such an idea. He did say that "important differences would have to be overcome," but that could be taken in a lot of ways. What differences does he see that need to be overcome? Is he thinking of things like Roman primacy and infallibility, or less significant problems?
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2008, 07:30:20 PM »

I'm very suprised that Pat. Bartholomew would "respond favorably" to such an idea. He did say that "important differences would have to be overcome," but that could be taken in a lot of ways. What differences does he see that need to be overcome? Is he thinking of things like Roman primacy and infallibility, or less significant problems?
I think we are getting a filtered version of this "news item". My guess is he probably spelled this out, but this was glossed over in the "news" report and reduced to the one sentence: "Patriarch Bartholomew acknowledged that a restoration of unity would require study, and important differences would have to be overcome."
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2008, 07:30:33 PM »

I'm very suprised that Pat. Bartholomew would "respond favorably" to such an idea. He did say that "important differences would have to be overcome," but that could be taken in a lot of ways. What differences does he see that need to be overcome? Is he thinking of things like Roman primacy and infallibility, or less significant problems?

It's a shame there isn't more detail in the article, but good to see that the lines are open for communication and resolution (whenever/should that be).
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2008, 08:04:55 PM »

If there will be "local unity" in the Ukraine which stops the proselytizing by both sides, why not extend it universally?

Sounds like a back door attempt to reunify Catholicism and Orthodoxy especially if the MP is part of this proposal.  If the MP is aboard, consider unity 99.999% a done deal.   Cry
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2008, 08:35:44 PM »

This is not ok. If they are in communion with Rome they are scismatics. I don't understand why the EP wants to even do this.
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2008, 08:37:52 PM »

This is not ok. If they are in communion with Rome they are scismatics. I don't understand why the EP wants to even do this.

Like ozgeorge said we are getting a filtered news item. If we get the context of the discussion or an actual transcript we can not really be sure what it is about.
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2008, 09:35:09 PM »

This is not ok. If they are in communion with Rome they are scismatics. I don't understand why the EP wants to even do this.

I'm with you on this one. Plus, how does this solve the problems of the Orthodox in Ukraine?

Weren't the Melkites rejected when they suggested this exact proposal?
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2008, 10:08:56 PM »

Like ozgeorge said we are getting a filtered news item. If we get the context of the discussion or an actual transcript we can not really be sure what it is about.

I agree, and this filtered news seems a tad confusing. The heading of the article suggests that His All Holiness has made the proposal and yet in the text it states that it came from the head of the Ukranian church.  Huh
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2008, 01:14:27 AM »

If true, this is a rather strange thing to hear from the Ecumenical Patriarch.
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2008, 01:23:49 AM »

I think we are getting a filtered version of this "news item".

Good grief. I certainly hope this is the case. 

As an aside, I suppose His All-Holiness can make the decision to recognize Byzantine Rite Catholics as being in communion with us, but I don't think anyone outside of his direct jurisdiction will ever honor such a decision.

I don't see how he can, without severing himself from the Orthodox communion.
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2008, 01:54:16 AM »

I don't see how he can, without severing himself from the Orthodox communion.

Neither can I.
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2008, 01:59:51 AM »

This is all based on a Catholic news item. Perhaps they are reading too much into whatever has been said.  Huh
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2008, 02:01:53 AM »

I don't see how he can, without severing himself from the Orthodox communion.
Well, His All-Holiness can do whatever his conscience leads him to do, but you're right that the consequence of such action may well be his own excommunication.
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2008, 02:03:24 AM »

This is all based on a Catholic news item. Perhaps they are reading too much into whatever has been said.  Huh

Quite possibly so. I get the impression of late that the Vatican is being somewhat manipulative with these announcements, and the EP may not be experienced enough to realize how his words can be construed. But I might be over generous in that last part.
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2008, 02:04:16 AM »

Well, His All-Holiness can do whatever his conscience leads him to do, but you're right that the consequence of such action may well be his own excommunication.

How'd one like to sit on his synod? <shudder....>
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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2008, 02:04:44 AM »

This is all based on a Catholic news item. Perhaps they are reading too much into whatever has been said.  Huh
Nah.  I'm just speaking of the hypothetical situation that would arise IF the article is accurate.  Personally, I would probably not give much credence to this being the case.
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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2008, 02:06:01 AM »

Quite possibly so. I get the impression of late that the Vatican is being somewhat manipulative with these announcements, and the EP may not be experienced enough to realize how his words can be construed. But I might be over generous in that last part.

Have you searched the net, at all? Catholic forums are abuzz with this news - mostly confusion it would seem. Some posters even seem to think it's an Orthodox plot of some kind!
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2008, 02:51:48 AM »

Orthodox leader suggests "dual unity" for Eastern Catholics:

More: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=59186

Is this possible from an Orthodox perspective?
I don't know. But IMHO, from the R Catholic perspective, I don't think it would pose any insurmountable problems.
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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2008, 04:10:30 AM »

Have you searched the net, at all? Catholic forums are abuzz with this news - mostly confusion it would seem. Some posters even seem to think it's an Orthodox plot of some kind!

Funny, really funny!

But I don't do RC forums, anymore.
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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2008, 04:52:52 AM »

If true, this is a rather strange thing to hear from the Ecumenical Patriarch.
I would think you would approve of such a thing. Am I wrong?
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« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2008, 07:42:14 AM »

Is that like an "open" marriage?
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« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2008, 08:57:05 AM »

Cool.
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« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2008, 09:11:12 AM »

Can anyone read German?

http://kath.net/detail.php?id=20113
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« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2008, 09:12:33 AM »

Quite possibly so. I get the impression of late that the Vatican is being somewhat manipulative with these announcements, and the EP may not be experienced enough to realize how his words can be construed. But I might be over generous in that last part.

There is no evidence the Holy See is behind this story.
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2008, 09:51:15 AM »


Pretty much saying the EP is reported to have invited the Eastern Catholic Churches to recognise the Pope in an "Orthodox manner" and be in union with both Rome and Constantinople.  It also mentions that the first things to be discussed will be the modern developments in Catholic dogma.  Then the EP goes on to say that we must grow together again and how there is still much to do.
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« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2008, 10:19:06 AM »

So the EP is having Orthodox unity with Eastern Catholics, while ECs have union with Rome, pending Orthodox union with Rome? The ECs will be the middle party to smoothe the way?
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2008, 10:20:51 AM »

So the EP is having Orthodox unity with Eastern Catholics, while ECs have union with Rome, pending Orthodox union with Rome? The ECs will be the middle party to smoothe the way?

Seems that is what the articles posted so far have said.
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« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2008, 10:24:55 AM »

I don't know. But IMHO, from the R Catholic perspective, I don't think it would pose any insurmountable problems.

I'm not sure about that, especially without further clarification about what the Patriarch intended by his comments and which obstacles he has in mind. So far this seems very similar to the Zoghby Initiative, of which Pope Benedict was not particularly a fan back when he was still a cardinal. Rome might be open to further discussion on the matter, but an official double communion without some kind of change is not likely.
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« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2008, 10:25:27 AM »

If this is true, there definintely needs to be an Ecumenical Council so that he can be deposed.
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« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2008, 12:39:01 PM »

Pretty much saying the EP is reported to have invited the Eastern Catholic Churches to recognise the Pope in an "Orthodox manner" and be in union with both Rome and Constantinople.
ISTM that the only way the EC churches can recognize the Pope in an "Orthodox manner" is to recognize the schism that still exists between Rome and the Orthodox and to recognize that intercommunion is just not possible until Rome returns to the Orthodox faith.
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« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2008, 12:52:46 PM »

If this is true, there definintely needs to be an Ecumenical Council so that he can be deposed.

What else can one expect from an Orthodox Patriarch 'educated' at a Catholic institution in Rome?  He should have been deposed long ago.
.
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« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2008, 12:59:28 PM »

There is no evidence the Holy See is behind this story.

It's from YOUR sources, not ours.
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« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2008, 01:00:40 PM »

What else can one expect from an Orthodox Patriarch 'educated' at a Catholic institution in Rome?  He should have been deposed long ago.
.

Too bad it's none of your business, unless you're switching jurisdictions and sit on his synod.
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« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2008, 01:03:09 PM »

Too bad it's none of your business, unless you're switching jurisdictions and sit on his synod.

Lol. Thanks for making my day - its amazing the lengths you GO go to defend Pat. Bart no matter his antics.   Grin
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« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2008, 01:42:40 PM »

Lol. Thanks for making my day - its amazing the lengths you GO go to defend Pat. Bart no matter his antics.   Grin

It's amazing how you are so quick to condemn and judge instead of grieve and pray......or even consider that you just might be jumping the gun and how some sober second thought might be in order.
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« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2008, 01:51:25 PM »

What else can one expect from an Orthodox Patriarch 'educated' at a Catholic institution in Rome?  He should have been deposed long ago.

By whom and which army?  The Holy Spirit operates according to its own timetable, not ours.  If this idea is "bad", the Holy Spirit will let us know in its own time.
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« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2008, 03:32:21 PM »

personally, I think this is just a continuation of the usual Eastern Catholic wishful thinking or maybe even just plain misinformation.

Here is a rough translation of the German:
Patriarch Bartholomew Supports the Idea of “Double Unity”
of the Eastern Catholic Churches

17 June 2008 – In his recent interview with the ecumenical journal “Cyril and Methodius” the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew touched on the question of the existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches. He invited these Churches, while remaining in union with Rome, to become Orthodox again. In particular he said that “the Constantinopolitan Mother Church always keeps the doors open for her sons and daughters.” In the words of the Orthodox First Hierarch, the model of unity can be the form of coexistence which was in place between the Byzantine and Roman Curches during the first millennium of Christianity, KATH.net stated on 16 June.
At the same time, the Patriarch expressed himself favorably concerning the idea of “double unity” which was proposed by the Chief Hierarch of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church Major Archbishop Lubomyr (Husar). The Head of the Ecumenical Patriarchate explained that such a model would lead to the settlement of the division between the Churches. In the words of the Patriarch, Church unity is not “the result of the administrators of the Churches nor of theological fantasies”. “It is necessary to have more common efforts with the participation of Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant communities, common projects, so as to know one another better. It is necessary to pray much, very much.” Patriarch Bartholomew said that important steps on the road to unity have already been taken. “The mutual anathemas of 1054 between the Churches have been lifted. The theological dialogue of the Orthodox Church with Anglicans, Lutherans, and Reformed is going ahead without interruption. After a pause of several years this dialogue is again renewed”.

- - - - - -

Maybe the Ecumenical Patriarch really did say: In particular he said that “the Constantinopolitan Mother Church always keeps the doors open for her sons and daughters.”
But I dount the Ecumenical patriarch would ever approve of "double unity".  This is totally against basic Eastern Orthodox dogma.


However, it is an idea that the Ukrainian Catholics support and they are the leaders of claiming they are "Orthodox in union with Rome."
Speaking as a Ukrainian Orthodox Christian, I can say that Ukrainian Catholics cannot receive communion in my Church: only Orthodox Christians can partake of communion.
I am sad to say that every now and then a Ukrainian Catholic comes along who tries to join the communion line but our priest knows everyone who goes to confession and has turned away an Ukrainian Catholics who dare to try this
rouse.

I have been trying to find the journal mentioned "Cyril and Methodius" on the internet to see the article cited.  I think we should wait a few days to see how the Ecumenical Patriarchate responds to the German article.
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« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2008, 03:57:11 PM »

Oh my gosh, Orest! A reasonable response...what next?
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« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2008, 12:31:40 AM »

I still haven't found the Cyril & Methodius journal online; however, I did read a comment on words of Cardinal Kaspar at  Oxford.  These words are quite a slap in the face to Ukrainian Catholics and I can't help wondering if the false claim that the Ecumenical Patriarch supports "double unity" was written in part as a response to Cardinal Kaspar's stance regarding Ukrainian Catholics.

Quote
INTERNATIONAL EXCLUSIVE TO CATHOLICA AUSTRALIA:

 A long-running and complex diplomatic, ecumenical, political tension between three major churches, the Russian Orthodox, the Latin Church and the Ukrainian Catholic Church has been building to new heights in recent weeks. Cardinal Walter Kaspar has been involved in a high level initiative in Moscow seeking to reopen talks with the Russian Orthodox Church which had become stalled under the late Pope John Paul II. Meanwhile a Synod of Bishops of Eastern Catholic Churches is underway in Kyiv (Kiev) at the moment. Cardinal Kaspar's remarks at a Theology seminar at Oxford University a few week's ago appear to have caused deep offense to Ukrainian Catholics who have long been seeking Rome's support for the establishment of a Ukrainian Patriarchy. Rome had been in favour of correcting this historical anomaly under Pope Benedict's predecessor but the final steps of the process were seemingly cut short by the death of Pope John Paul II. Under Cardinal Kaspar and Pope Benedict, the Ukrainian Catholics feel they have been relegated to a class of second-class Catholics in Rome's impatience to reach some rapprochement and healing of the relationship with Moscow. Much is at stake in this diplomatic game of brinksmanship. Rome has gone cold on the idea of a Ukrainian Patriarchy seemingly in favour of the diplomatic overtures to the Russian Orthodox Church. As reported in some conservative Catholic news agencies yesterday, there are initiatives underway for the Ukrainian Catholics to form a joint Patriarchy with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Dr Andrew Kania is a respected lay member of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Australia and at the international level is a widely published writer seeking to bring greater understanding of the perspectives of Eastern Catholics in the Western lung of Catholicism. In his present position at Oxford University Dr Kania has been close to some of the unfolding events in recent weeks and provides this detailed understanding of what is unfolding written from the perspective of Ukrainian Catholics and their spiritual leaders in Kiev.

…On the of 5th of May, 2008, the German theologian, Cardinal Walter Kaspar having been invited by the University of Oxford's four Catholic Halls, delivered the inaugural John Henry Newman Lecture, entitled: "The Timeliness of Speaking About God". Nothing was said in this address that a Catholic would take umbrage with or even be slightly surprised at hearing. Kaspar spoke well on the necessity of God in a world influenced by fundamentalist atheism. However, that Kaspar's lecture caused no offence, cannot be said with regard his comments earlier on the same day at a seminar organized by the Faculty of Theology at the University and held at Christ Church.
Cardinal Kaspar when asked of his opinion at the seminar, on the plans of the Ukrainian Catholic Church to establish a Patriarchate in Kyiv, responded in words that would sadden not only the majority of Ukrainian Catholics, but would also embarrass many Catholics of the West. According to Kaspar, the major problem that he envisaged for the Vatican recognizing Patriarchal status for Kyiv and the Ukrainian Catholic Church, is in the effect that this would have on the process of 'ecumenical relations' with Moscow and the Russian Orthodox Church. Kaspar concluded his response to the question by saying that the present Pope, takes the same stand as he does on the issue. Kaspar dismissed the notion of a joint Ukrainian Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox patriarchate, currently being discussed in Kyiv, as untenable.

In addition to these comments the German Cardinal spoke of the need for there to be liturgical reforms in the East, as, he perceived the Liturgy to be overly lengthy, as well as the need for the East to have an Enlightenment similar to the West, to solve the problems of superstition in Eastern Christendom. Evidently Kaspar, a renowned ecumenist was only too willing to insult Eastern Christians perhaps believing that he was speaking to what would certainly be a uniformly Western Catholic/Anglican audience. Moreover when asked privately later about his specific arguments as to his strong stance regarding the establishment of a Patriarchate in Kyiv, Cardinal Kaspar, gruffly replied: "There should not be!", and then without a further parting word, turned his back on the theologian who had asked the question.

The author: "Andrew Thomas Kania is a visiting scholar at Blackfriars Hall at the University of Oxford, where he is completing a book on Dag Hammrskjöld. He has taken 12 months leave of absence from his position as Director of Spirituality at Aquinas College, Manning in Western Australia to complete this task. Prior to this appointment at Aquinas Dr. Kania was a lecturer for the School of Religious Education at the University of Notre Dame Australia as well as for the Catholic Institute of Western Australia at Edith Cowan and Curtin Universities. Dr. Kania belongs to the Ukrainian Church and is interested in ecumenical issues as well as contemporary problems facing religious educators."

http://www.catholica.com.au/andrewstake1/079_ak_210608.php

Again I want to repeat that I have never heard any cleric, hierarch or even a lay person  in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church who supports a "double unity".  Only Orthodox Christians can partake of communion in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2008, 12:54:21 AM »

May 5 was before Cardinal Kaspar's visit to MP (on May 30) which was after Archbishop Demetrios' visit to MP.

In those latter 2 discussions, discussions pertaining to the Ukraine resulted in the articles posted on this thread.  I said in a previous thread that any unity in the homogeneous Ukraine would serve as a "back door" for reunification; Additionally, the "back door" would serve as a rehearsal for eventual Catholic/Orthodox Unity.

Since MP and Pope Benedict wish to meet with each other, resolving the Ukraine may be the last stumbling block between a visit between the two Hierarchs. 

I still haven't found the Cyril & Methodius journal online; however, I did read a comment on words of Cardinal Kaspar at  Oxford.  These words are quite a slap in the face to Ukrainian Catholics and I can't help wondering if the false claim that the Ecumenical Patriarch supports "double unity" was written in part as a response to Cardinal Kaspar's stance regarding Ukrainian Catholics.

Again I want to repeat that I have never heard any cleric, hierarch or even a lay person  in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church who supports a "double unity".  Only Orthodox Christians can partake of communion in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2008, 01:35:26 AM »

cwnews is a Roman Catholic website

Look there is much speculation going on here.  cwnews.com is a Roman Catholic online news site.  How credible is any news agency?  How credible is cwnews.com?  The best thing to do would be to do investigation and read the sources they claim to be referencing.  Then you may start to form an opinion on whether or not the linked article in the original post is worth getting worked up about.  I would bet that the cwnews.com article has been spun and doesn't accurately reflect the article they wrote this piece about.
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« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2008, 04:57:46 AM »

I dont really understand the pain taken by the Ecumenical Patriarch unify the Holy Orthodoxy with heretic Roman Church. This is out of control.. Dual unity is big mistake !!! Rome wants Ecumenism and unity with Orthodox Church not out of  the love for  Orthodoxy, but it is to swallow the Holy teachings of Jesus Christ and His Apostles.
 
Why does the Ecumenical Patriarch, still not enthusiastic about establishing full communion between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Family....

Pray for Orthodox Unity!!!
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« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2008, 09:43:41 PM »

I would think you would approve of such a thing. Am I wrong?
As an Eastern Catholic I am for unity with the Orthodox, but only if all the Orthodox Churches agree.  That said, I fear that unilateral action by the Ecumenical Patriarch could cause a schism among the Orthodox Churches, and that would benefit no one.
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