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Author Topic: covering the hair in front of Muslims...  (Read 4129 times) Average Rating: 0
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Myrrh23
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« on: June 18, 2008, 11:23:35 PM »

I want to know everyone's opinions on this:

My father and his family are Muslims. I was raised Christian by my Christian mother. I want to know if it would be wrong to refuse to cover my hair in the presence on my Muslim relatives and their Muslim friends, in a non-religious setting? Would it be wrong if I still refused even if my father told me to cover my hair? Thanks!
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 11:32:54 PM »

Maybe you should ask Muslims?
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2008, 11:40:36 PM »

I want to know everyone's opinions on this:

My father and his family are Muslims. I was raised Christian by my Christian mother. I want to know if it would be wrong to refuse to cover my hair in the presence on my Muslim relatives and their Muslim friends, in a non-religious setting? Would it be wrong if I still refused even if my father told me to cover my hair? Thanks!

If you're over the age of 18, you can present your hair anyway you want regardless of what the Muslim side of the family tells you.  Otherwise, better to err on the side of modesty and cover one's hair.
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2008, 12:41:52 AM »

Hello Myrrh23,

 Perhaps it's not my place to respond due to the fact that I'm not a Christian, so I hope you'll pardon me if I seem patronizing.   Yet, I'm inclined to agree with SolEX01 on the modesty aspect.  And truly, if nothing else, then perhaps you could cover your hair simply out of honor to your father.  Unless, of coarse, doing so would in some manner go against your Christian beliefs (do you necessarily need to cover Islamic style?).

Respectfully,

Séamus O'Donnell   
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2008, 12:52:24 AM »

well some Orthodox woman cover there heads so it wouldn't be exactly Muslim.
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2008, 12:59:29 AM »

This is a religious question which fits better in the free-for-all religious forum.  Thank you!-username! section moderator of other topics
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2008, 01:05:39 AM »

You don't come off as patronizing, Seamus! Smiley
I would cover my hair out of obedience to my father, after all that he's done for me. I'd also do it for my aunts or uncles, but I'd be less inclined to do so for my cousins or their friends, I guess because their not my elders. I'm of the mind that if an individual couldn't control his own thoughts if he saw my hair, that person needs help. I can understand a Muslim person being uncomfortable with revealing clothes, even though I don't engage in such. I dunno...still thinking... Undecided
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2008, 01:28:50 AM »

I would cover my hair out of obedience to my father, after all that he's done for me. I'd also do it for my aunts or uncles, but I'd be less inclined to do so for my cousins or their friends, I guess because their not my elders. I'm of the mind that if an individual couldn't control his own thoughts if he saw my hair, that person needs help. I can understand a Muslim person being uncomfortable with revealing clothes, even though I don't engage in such. I dunno...still thinking... Undecided

Your profile states that you're over 18 - Forgive me.   angel

I saw a young Muslim woman in her 20's dress like a woman in her 20's on a hot, summer day (shorts, top) with no head covering.  Each person has her own preferences and respect towards the Patriarch of one's family would outweigh any obligation one has towards cousins and friends unless one of them happened to be your future husband in an arranged marriage.   Cool
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2008, 03:34:51 AM »

Myrrh,

I would go with honouring your father's wishes in his house. It seems a rather unnecessary slight to him to do otherwise.

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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2008, 09:16:03 AM »

Sorry if my ignorance is showing, but I thought that in front of her family a muslim woman did not have to keep covered?
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2008, 10:36:18 AM »

Covering one's head is a modest practice and Orthodox women used to (and some still) do it too so it is not wrong to do it.

The question is, do they view it as you "submitting to Islam" when you do it?  You live in the West, so aren't they already used to seeing women that are not Muslims walk around in head coverings? My only concern would be that they are getting the impression that by you doing it you are implicitly agreeing with them that Christianity is inferior to Islam.
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2008, 11:40:14 AM »

Has your father or anyone asked you to cover your hair, or are you making an assumption?  I only ask because I recall similar circumstances in my own life when I assumed I would be offending someone if I took this or that action, but the other person never really gave it much thought.  So I wonder if you are needlessly making your self anxious.

On the other hand, if your father asks you to cover your hair in his presence, then do so out of respect for him, and make it clear that it is for him.  If other family members are telling you to cover your hair, then ask your father what he thinks.  But, as Fr. Dn. says, you should be aware that covering your hair may communicate to others an opinion of Islam that you don't share.

If it were me, I'd buy a head scarf with crosses on it, and keep it handy.  But then I have my passive-aggressive moments.  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2008, 12:14:02 PM »


If it were me, I'd buy a head scarf with crosses on it, and keep it handy.  But then I have my passive-aggressive moments.  Wink

I like the way you think.  I was thinking the same thing while reading this thread! Tongue
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2008, 12:39:11 PM »

If it were me, I'd buy a head scarf with crosses on it, and keep it handy.  But then I have my passive-aggressive moments.  Wink

Ditto to Schultz.  Nothing wrong with passive-aggressive - it's how I've managed to stay married for 23 years.
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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2008, 03:04:25 PM »

Here is an example out of my life;

I have my septum pierced, I have for about 9 years. I love it. But my parents/in-laws/grandparents do not, so I keep it hidden around them.

I personally would wear the headcovering. I wouldn't wear a full face covering or the clothes to go with it though. If you were to visit an Orthodox womens monastry you would need to wear proper attire out of respect; headcovering, long skirt, practical shirt ect.

I would talk to your father and ask how he feels. Then go from there.

But a word of warning, even though we are adults now we still have to watch ourselves from teenage-like rebellion against our parents. You don't have to OBEY your father, but respect is a must.
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« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 03:24:55 PM »

This wasn't based on a real occurence, but many of my relatives, including my uncle, are hard-core Muslims. My immediate family knows I'm Christian, and they don't seem too disturbed by it. 

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If it were me, I'd buy a head scarf with crosses on it, and keep it handy.  But then I have my passive-aggressive moments.

Tuesday, brilliant! Grin
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« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2008, 03:31:00 PM »

You don't come off as patronizing, Seamus! Smiley
I would cover my hair out of obedience to my father, after all that he's done for me. I'd also do it for my aunts or uncles, but I'd be less inclined to do so for my cousins or their friends, I guess because their not my elders. I'm of the mind that if an individual couldn't control his own thoughts if he saw my hair, that person needs help. I can understand a Muslim person being uncomfortable with revealing clothes, even though I don't engage in such. I dunno...still thinking... Undecided

I think the question is: those who are asking you to do it, are they doing it out concerns of modesty, or as an affirmation that you are Muslim (which, according to Muslim law, you are).  If it is for any reason but the latter, err on the side of modesty and cover up.
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« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2008, 03:45:55 PM »

A funny story;

I have darker skin (since I am afterall american indian) and I sometimes wear a headcovering-like I have just left a church service and haven't taken it off. I actually wear an Isreali headcovering because it is so beautiful. Anyway, we call my son Ollie. So when I am in my headcovering and talking to my son people assume I am Muslim, despite the fact that my orthodox cross is hanging around my neck. All this said; you know what the headcovering does or does not mean, that is what matters.
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« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2008, 03:52:03 PM »

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I think the question is: those who are asking you to do it, are they doing it out concerns of modesty, or as an affirmation that you are Muslim (which, according to Muslim law, you are).

Huh? What Muslim law says I'm Muslim? Dude, I'm Christian, even if my father is Muslim. Since I was raised Christian and am a professing Christian, I would only be considered a Muslim if I were to declare my intentions for Islam.
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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2008, 05:19:23 PM »

A funny story;

I have darker skin (since I am afterall american indian) and I sometimes wear a headcovering-like I have just left a church service and haven't taken it off. I actually wear an Isreali headcovering because it is so beautiful. Anyway, we call my son Ollie. So when I am in my headcovering and talking to my son people assume I am Muslim, despite the fact that my orthodox cross is hanging around my neck. All this said; you know what the headcovering does or does not mean, that is what matters.

I've heard a funnier story of a person who went to an Orthodox women's monastery and thought all the nuns were Muslims because of the head coverings. I believe the person asked a nun if they keep Ramadan at the monastery.
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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2008, 07:58:47 AM »

Huh? What Muslim law says I'm Muslim? Dude, I'm Christian, even if my father is Muslim. Since I was raised Christian and am a professing Christian, I would only be considered a Muslim if I were to declare my intentions for Islam.
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Wrong.

According to Muslim law, anyone whose parents are Muslims at the point of their conception is Muslim.  Because of descent, that would include someone whose grandparents or further had been Muslim, since, according to Islamic law, once Muslim, always Muslim, creating an infinite regression.  Btw, the descendants of Jinnah, the Father of Pakistan, cannot go to Pakistan, as they are Christians (although I understand that one converted to Zoroaastrianism, the religion of Jinnah's son in law before baptism).

Of course, the Church doesn't care what Islamic law says.
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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2008, 10:54:15 AM »

^ Even worse, the Muslim side of your family would consider you an apostate for being openly Christian.  Myrrh23, maybe this is outside the scope of the question except I'm curious to know how has your father been able to co-parent with your mother who's not Muslim?
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« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2008, 02:06:50 PM »

Hey Sol---


Sorry I haven't responded. We've been without internet since last Friday. Sad
I've read that Muslim men can marry people who are "People of the Book", i.e., Jews, Christians, and other Muslims. I don't know why my mother married my father, but I'm glad she did. He's the sane one... Wink

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« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2008, 02:18:28 PM »

Hey Sol---
Sorry I haven't responded. We've been without internet since last Friday. Sad

Glad to see you back online.   Smiley

I've read that Muslim men can marry people who are "People of the Book", i.e., Jews, Christians, and other Muslims. I don't know why my mother married my father, but I'm glad she did. He's the sane one... Wink

I don't know if you've visited the website below which provided some explanations regarding mixed marriage between Muslim men and Christian/Jewish women.  Note that a Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a Christian/Jewish man.

Mixed Marriage among Muslims and Christians

These 3 paragraphs from the site are pertinent to the discussion:

If a Christian woman marries a Muslim, but holds on to her beliefs, such as the Sonship and Lordship of Christ, then ipso facto she holds on to a false belief and may be considered a "heretic" or an "infidel," if the Quran and traditional Islamic theology are followed consistently.

Also, would the children be Muslims or Christians, or secular? The answer is clear, if Islam is followed consistently.

What kind of marriage would this be? Where is the spiritual connection and agreement between husband and wife and God?
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2008, 01:26:08 PM »

Wrong.

According to Muslim law, anyone whose parents are Muslims at the point of their conception is Muslim.  Because of descent, that would include someone whose grandparents or further had been Muslim, since, according to Islamic law, once Muslim, always Muslim, creating an infinite regression. 

But both parents are not Muslim.  So this is a unique situation.  In the case of an indivdual like Myrrh23, the question is how was she raised???   if she was raised a Muslim, believing in God and that Muhammad was the Messenger of God, then she would be Muslim.  If she was raised Christian believing the Jesus is Lord and Savior, then she would be Christian.

According to a major Islamic school of theology, a person has to reach puberty in order to be responsible for their action.  Thus if a person dies before puberty and is either muslim or non-Muslim, the person is saved and enters into paradise, this is the belief of majority of Muslim scholars.  If a person is raised Muslim she would be characterized as Muslim but not legally bond by the religion until the person reaches puberty.  If a person is raised Christian and born to a Muslim father and Christian mother, she would be characterized as Christian and not Muslim.

A person before puberty cannot legally (according to Islam) say whether she or he is a Muslim or not. After puberty if a person believes he is Christian ireespective of who she was born to, she is Christian.

And if you believe otherwise, I would ask for proof, what Islamic book of Fiqh or Aqidah and who is the author of the book from which you are getting your information.

So Myrrh23 would not be consider Muslim by any of the jurist, in my opinion and I studied a couple basic text in Islamic Law with an Islamic Shaykh and I studied few basic texts in Islamic belief with an Islamic Shaykh.  I can't imagine how she would considered Muslim.

To Myrrh23

In regards to your question, I think Honor thy mother and father plays be big role in this.  If your parents request that you do anything that goes against your religion than you are obligated not to do it, if it does not go against your religion I don't see the harm in doing it.  Wearing a head scraf is not prohibited by Christianity, so why rebel, it is not like your father is asking you to kiss the Quran or recite Quran or sit with Islamic scholars to study Islam or anything like that, he is just requesting you to respect his religious belief within the boundaries of your religion Christianity and how can that be harmful.

And the Lord knows best.
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2008, 03:07:49 PM »

But both parents are not Muslim.  So this is a unique situation.  In the case of an indivdual like Myrrh23, the question is how was she raised???   if she was raised a Muslim, believing in God and that Muhammad was the Messenger of God, then she would be Muslim.  If she was raised Christian believing the Jesus is Lord and Savior, then she would be Christian.

... who would always be perceived as an apostate to her Islamic side of the family even though they are nice people by not calling her an apostate to her face.   Smiley  I worked for 6 years with a man who was both Muslim and Christian; He married a Christian woman and respected both religions equally.  Finally, both he and his wife didn't raise their children as Muslims.

According to a major Islamic school of theology, a person has to reach puberty in order to be responsible for their action.

Which major Islamic school of theology?  I'm no Islam expert and many Islamic schools can say different things contradicting the Qur'an in the process.

Thus if a person dies before puberty and is either muslim or non-Muslim, the person is saved and enters into paradise, this is the belief of majority of Muslim scholars.  If a person is raised Muslim she would be characterized as Muslim but not legally bond by the religion until the person reaches puberty.  If a person is raised Christian and born to a Muslim father and Christian mother, she would be characterized as Christian and not Muslim.

Which is consistent with how Myrrh23 has presented her situation.  She's expressed herself as a Christian.

So Myrrh23 would not be consider Muslim by any of the jurist, in my opinion and I studied a couple basic text in Islamic Law with an Islamic Shaykh and I studied few basic texts in Islamic belief with an Islamic Shaykh.  I can't imagine how she would considered Muslim.

I thought Islam was a patrilineal religion.  How do these Islamic Sheiks contradict the patrilineal nature of Islam?
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2008, 10:43:19 PM »

Which major Islamic school of theology?  I'm no Islam expert and many Islamic schools can say different things contradicting the Qur'an in the process.

The Asharis. In regards in contradicting the Quran, this is highly unlikely.  I was Ashari for many years and there is nothing that I came across that contradicted the Quran.

It is like a Protestant Christian saying I came across the Orthodox Christian following things that contradict the Bible.  Perhaps this is due to the ignorance of the Protestant Christian of the Orthodox Tradition, but not Orthodox Christianity being ignorant of bible.


Quote
I thought Islam was a patrilineal religion.  How do these Islamic Sheiks contradict the patrilineal nature of Islam?

I don't think Islam is a patrilineal religion.

Those who are descendent of Prophet Muhammad are descendent of him through his daughter Fatima. And descendence of Muhammad are held in high regard.  They are called Ahlul Bayt.

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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2008, 11:06:41 PM »

I don't think Islam is a patrilineal religion.

Quote
Standing next to an overhead projector, Maha ElGenaidi reviews a list of Islam's basic tenets with 22 students at Archbishop Mitty High School in San Jose. Dressed modestly in ankle-length skirt and long-sleeved blouse, her head covered in accordance with Muslim custom, she tells the world history honors students about salat, the practice of praying five times a day.

``Now this is seven days a week, guys,'' ElGenaidi says. ``Weekends included.''

ElGenaidi, 41, is co-founder of the Islamic Networks Group (ING), ... The students want to know whether Islam has a rite analogous to baptism -- it does not -- and whether Muslims are allowed to marry people of other faiths. Only men are allowed, ElGenaidi says. As ``primary provider'' at home, the man generally exercises more authority. And since Islam recognizes the prophets of Judaism and Christianity, a Muslim man who marries a non-Muslim woman would allow her to practice her faith freely. ``In fact,'' ElGenaidi tells the students, ``he is required to do so by Islamic law.''

Also, Islam is a patrilineal faith: Children follow the religion of the father. Even if he marries outside the religion, the family's Muslim lineage will continue.

Is Mrs. ElGenaidi incorrect for saying that Islam is a patrilineal religion?
Source for above quote:
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« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2008, 06:23:59 AM »

Is Mrs. ElGenaidi incorrect for saying that Islam is a patrilineal religion?
Source for above quote:

It is understandable why she would say that but she is incorrect.  She has not studied Islamic law.

In Islamic Law there are 5 maxims or objective of Islamic Law. 

These five maxims or objectives of Islamic Law are for the preservation of

1) religion,
2) life,
3) intellect,
4) lineage, and
5) wealth.

So every Islamic ruling returns to one of these five maxims or objectives.  And there is a consensus on these five objectives by Islamic jurists within Sunni Islam.

This ruling of allowing Muslim men to marry women of other faiths is conditioned.  It is only allowed if the children are raised Muslim. Thus this ruling is allowed based on the preservation of religion. Therefore if a Muslim man marries a Christian women with the intention of raising the children Christian than this marriage is invalid.  Because of this condition and understanding of Islamic Law, some Islamic scholars have stated it is forbidden for a muslim man to marry a non-Muslim women in an unislamic country, because there is no assurance that the children will be raised Muslim.  I've even read Muslim scholars giving this ruling even in Muslim countries because of the high rate of these marriages resulting producing Muslim children.  A Mufti (an Islamic Judge) I know, gave the ruling that it was permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a non-muslim man based on the condition that the children would be raised Muslim (although most muslim jurist would agree with this, but the mufti gave this ruling based on the objectives of Islamic law).

So without doubt she is wrong. 

You aren't a religion because of your forefathers, this is actually against the Quran.  You are Muslim because you believe in it, you are Christian because you believe in it.  In Islam there is no blind following in regards to faith or beliefs.  In general it is impermissible to say I believe because my parents are Muslim, you have to believe because you actually believe in God and the Muhammad is the Messenger of God.

Before you try to argue this point an example of a ruling that preserves linage is, unlawful sex outside of marriage.  The reason why it is unlawful is to preserve linage.
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SolEX01
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« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2008, 12:32:27 PM »

^ To summarize, Islam (per the Quran) is neither a patrilineal nor a matrilineal religion provided that the children are raised Muslim.  If there's a mixed marriage and the children are not raised Muslim, then both the preservation of Islam is violated and the lineage is no longer preserved, whatever the consequences (if any) happen to be?
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Reader KevinAndrew
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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2008, 01:44:44 PM »

Wrong.

According to Muslim law, anyone whose parents are Muslims at the point of their conception is Muslim.  Because of descent, that would include someone whose grandparents or further had been Muslim, since, according to Islamic law, once Muslim, always Muslim, creating an infinite regression.  Btw, the descendants of Jinnah, the Father of Pakistan, cannot go to Pakistan, as they are Christians (although I understand that one converted to Zoroaastrianism, the religion of Jinnah's son in law before baptism).

Of course, the Church doesn't care what Islamic law says.

This is very correct. My father is a non-practicing Muslim and quite secular. So, my mom taking me to church, having me baptised, etc was just fine with him. In terms of Islam, however, my father's lack of observance or belief in Islam is irrelevant in terms of how Islamic society makes claims on people. There are no free passes, such as non-observance, that release a person from Islam, or membership in the umma. Mixed marriages where the wife is Christian are OK'd in Islam in the West by bringing up that unenforcable pledge to bring up the kids as Muslims. But this requirement is meaningless, as Islam claims kids from such marriages regardless. An individual releasing themselves from Islam does not release them from that category in Islamic society as a whole. They have a claim on me, I'm clearly not a Muslim, it would just go round and round in circles if the whole issue meant a hill of beans to me -- and it doesn't. Is our fiend pointed out in the above quote, the Church could care less about Islam's claims.


I'm basically in the same situation in terms of religious family variety as this woman is in. If I were a female and in her situation, I would cover my hair among conservative family members, if it would avoid scandal. It's not submitting to Islam, but rather being respectful of culture and family. Yes, Islam has influenced that culture, but nevertheless, I cannnot see how it would be unchristian to convey any sort of warranted discretion and respectfulness in this case. Heck, we bow to cultural requirements all of the time here in the US in this secular society, so I cannot see the difference.

Peace,
Reader Kevin

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Irenaeus07
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« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2008, 10:25:24 PM »

^ To summarize, Islam (per the Quran) is neither a patrilineal nor a matrilineal religion provided that the children are raised Muslim.  If there's a mixed marriage and the children are not raised Muslim, then both the preservation of Islam is violated and the lineage is no longer preserved, whatever the consequences (if any) happen to be?

One's Islam is not determined by his mother and father being Muslim, but rather his or her own belief in the religion.  This is a matter of consensus.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 10:32:20 PM by Irenaeus07 » Logged
SolEX01
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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2008, 11:50:55 PM »

One's Islam is not determined by his mother and father being Muslim, but rather his or her own belief in the religion.  This is a matter of consensus.

OK, I'm convinced.  Sorry to have dragged out this discussion....   Smiley
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