Topic: The sui iuris Churches of the Eastern Rite

[Lemko Rusyn]

Our babas never said "oh, we're Rusyn, Ruthenian, Carpatho-Russian, Lemko, etc.."

Well, maybe your baba didn't. But the terms russky, rus'ky, rusnaci, rusnaky, and karpatorussky certainly were used by the immigrants in their own language, and even in English they incorporated their churches, fraternal societies, and ethnic clubs using the English terms "Russian", "Russian Greek Catholic", "Ruthenian Catholic", "Carpatho-Russian", and "Rusin". There is little to no evidence that the term "Greek Catholic" was used by Greek Catholic Slavs in Austria-Hungary by itself as an ethnic identifier. Usually that phenomenon didn't come about until the 1st American-born generation, i.e., among the children of the immigrants.

They always said, "our people."  As in, "he's a great man, he's one of our people."  Pro nash for pro nasemu, "our people."

As a grammar stickler, I have to point out that "pro nash" is a non-starter. Perhaps you are thinking of to naš, i.e., "he/that/it's 'our kind' ".  And the other phrase is po našomu, literally, "in our way".  The preposition pro means "for" or "about".

[Lemko Rusyn]

Actually Toth and the Carpatho-Rusyns/ Ruthenians were not from Galicia.  They were from the area now know as Zakarpathia.  This area at times has been ruled by Hungarians and by Slovaks.

I'm afraid you are at least partially mistaken. St. Alexis (Toth) of Wilkes-Barre was indeed from Hungary. In particular, he was from the Prešov Region of present-day Slovakia. But the Prešov Region was never referred to as "Zakarpattia". "Zakarpattia" was a term created after the in 1947 incorporation of historic Subcarpathian Rus' into Soviet Ukraine (officially as the Zakarpats'ka oblast' of the Ukrainian SSR). Referring to a region of Slovakia as "Zakarpattia" is anachronistic (or perhaps irredentist depending on your degree of Ukrainian nationalist perspective).

As to the people St. Alexis encouraged to transition from Greek Catholicism in union with Rome to the Russian Orthodox Church, let's go through parish by parish and look at who exactly they were:

1) Minneapolis -- his first pastorate was a parish almost entirely of people from 4 adjacent villages in the Prešov Region.

2) Wilkes-Barre -- his other, longest, pastorate was a parish about 75% Lemkos from Galicia. The remainder were about 23% from the Prešov Region and maybe 2% from the Russian Empire. It was people from Wilkes-Barre who re-emigrated to the Lemko Region and established new Orthodox communities with the help of now St. Maksym (Sandowicz) of Gorlice.

Of the other parishes he directly led (back) to Orthodoxy or where he personally had a strong influence in that decision (in Pennsylvania unless otherwise noted):

Sheppton -- almost entirely people from the Prešov Region.
Old Forge -- almost entirely people from the Lemko Region (Galicia).
Osceola Mills -- about 60% from the Prešov Region, 38% Lemkos from Galicia, and the rest from the Russian Empire.
Allegheny / North Side Pittsburgh -- about 70% from the Prešov Region, 25% Lemkos from Galicia, and the rest from the Russian Empire (there were other ethnic groups in this parish, such as Greeks and Syrians, but along with those from the Russian Empire they were probably not in need of 'returning' to Orthodoxy).
Charleroi -- about 95% Lemkos from Galicia, the others from the Prešov Region.
Scranton -- around 90% people from the Prešov Region, 10% from the Lemko Region or Ukrainian Galicia.
Mayfield -- about 99% Lemkos from Galicia, the others from Ukrainian Galicia.
Olyphant -- almost entirely people from the Lemko Region (Galicia).
Catasauqua -- about 85% from the Prešov Region and Subcarpathian Rus', the rest from the Lemko Region (Galicia).
McAdoo -- all the parish founders were Lemkos from Galicia.
St. Clair -- all the parish founders were Lemkos from Galicia from a single village.
Passaic/Garfield, NJ -- about 90% Lemkos from Galicia, the others from the Prešov Region.
Cleveland, OH -- about 75% Lemkos from Galicia, the others from the Prešov Region.
Ansonia, CT -- about 98% Lemkos from Galicia, the others from the Russian Empire.
Bridgeport, CT -- about 95% people from the Prešov Region.
Yonkers, NY -- about 90% Lemkos from Galicia, the others from the Prešov Region.
Philadelphia -- about 10% from the Prešov Region, the others from Ukrainian Galicia and the Russian Empire.
etc.  You get the point.

As to whether Lemkos from Galicia are Carpatho-Rusyns, a very significant portion of them believes that they are. In fact, their primary secular organization in the U.S. and Canada (once the Ukrainians took over fraternal societies such as the Little Russian/Rusyn National Union aka Ukrainian National Association), the Lemko Association of the U.S. and Canada, published its newspaper called Karpatska Rus' and its almanac called Karpatorusskij kalendar' Lemko-Sojuza. Lemko organizations in Poland today including Stovaryshynja Lemkiv, Ansembl' Pisni i Tancja 'Kychera', and Stovaryshynja 'Ruska Bursa' are integral members of or participants in the World Congress of Rusyns, the Biennale of Lemko/Rusyn Culture in Krynica, and other events of the Carpatho-Rusyn community.

And at least 1/3 of the about 1,800 members of the U.S.-based Carpatho-Rusyn Society have Lemko ancestry from Galicia.

[username!]

Well, maybe your baba didn't. But the terms russky, rus'ky, rusnaci, rusnaky, and karpatorussky certainly were used by the immigrants in their own language, and even in English they incorporated their churches, fraternal societies, and ethnic clubs using the English terms "Russian", "Russian Greek Catholic", "Ruthenian Catholic", "Carpatho-Russian", and "Rusin". There is little to no evidence that the term "Greek Catholic" was used by Greek Catholic Slavs in Austria-Hungary by itself as an ethnic identifier. Usually that phenomenon didn't come about until the 1st American-born generation, i.e., among the children of the immigrants.

As a grammar stickler, I have to point out that "pro nash" is a non-starter. Perhaps you are thinking of to naš, i.e., "he/that/it's 'our kind' ".  And the other phrase is po našomu, literally, "in our way".  The preposition pro means "for" or "about".

Thanks I was too lazy to use the Slovak alphabet and pro does mean for.

Yes they did use names in the Ukrainian.  But in English that's what they said.
Yes my baba et al.. were Lemko Ukrainians.  A parish on your list is ten minutes or so from our parish.
It's a mix of the Slovak Rusyns and then the Lemko Ukrainians (Rusyns).  I'm also well aware of the social clubs with names like the Carpatho-Russian Club etc.... If you actually read my posts I hint at the various names used by our people over the years.

[jcb]

Dear Lemko Rusyn,

Could you please tell me your sources for your percentages in the parishes which Toth converted?  I am researching these conversions and others as a transnational phenomenon.

Many thanks

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Welcome to the forum, JCB!

[username!]

Dear Lemko Rusyn,

Could you please tell me your sources for your percentages in the parishes which Toth converted?  I am researching these conversions and others as a transnational phenomenon.

Many thanks

Toth?  Who is that?  There are hundreds of people with that last name just in my area.  I think you mean St. Alexis Toth.  Please show the saints the respect they deserve.  And why not start a new thread asking this question?

[ozgeorge]

Dear Lemko Rusyn,

Could you please tell me your sources for your percentages in the parishes which Toth converted?  I am researching these conversions and others as a transnational phenomenon.

Many thanks

Welcome jcb!
I am sure you meant no disrespect, but just so you know, we always refer to Orthodox Saints on this forum by their proper title. The same goes for clergy.
George

[Orthodoc]

Comment:

[As to whether Lemkos from Galicia are Carpatho-Rusyns, a very significant portion of them believes that they are. In fact, their primary secular organization in the U.S. and Canada (once the Ukrainians took over fraternal societies such as the Little Russian/Rusyn National Union aka Ukrainian National Association), the Lemko Association of the U.S. and Canada, published its newspaper called Karpatska Rus' and its almanac called Karpatorusskij kalendar' Lemko-Sojuza. Lemko organizations in Poland today including Stovaryshynja Lemkiv, Ansembl' Pisni i Tancja 'Kychera', and Stovaryshynja 'Ruska Bursa' are integral members of or participants in the World Congress of Rusyns, the Biennale of Lemko/Rusyn Culture in Krynica, and other events of the Carpatho-Rusyn community.]

You bet your Baba's bunion we are!

Orthodoc

[jcb]

My apologies...I was referring to St. Alexis (Toth), as he was referred to in an earlier response in this post.

As a historian, it is generally my practice to refer to historical personages and collectives by the terminology socially contemporaneous with those personages/collectives (which ought to have, at least, directed me to speak of "Fr. Toth," instead of the shorthand I chose).  But as this is an Orthdox forum, I ought to have adopted the standards of that forum, and will in the future.  Thank you for pointing this out to me, and so graciously.

[username!]

Comment:

[As to whether Lemkos from Galicia are Carpatho-Rusyns, a very significant portion of them believes that they are. In fact, their primary secular organization in the U.S. and Canada (once the Ukrainians took over fraternal societies such as the Little Russian/Rusyn National Union aka Ukrainian National Association), the Lemko Association of the U.S. and Canada, published its newspaper called Karpatska Rus' and its almanac called Karpatorusskij kalendar' Lemko-Sojuza. Lemko organizations in Poland today including Stovaryshynja Lemkiv, Ansembl' Pisni i Tancja 'Kychera', and Stovaryshynja 'Ruska Bursa' are integral members of or participants in the World Congress of Rusyns, the Biennale of Lemko/Rusyn Culture in Krynica, and other events of the Carpatho-Rusyn community.]

You bet your Baba's bunion we are!

Orthodoc

My family is Lemko and we've always considered ourselves Ukrainian.  Just to show there are Lemkos who didn't identify with the Carpatho-Rusyn nomenclature.

[Lemko Rusyn]

Dear Lemko Rusyn,

Could you please tell me your sources for your percentages in the parishes which Toth converted?  I am researching these conversions and others as a transnational phenomenon.

Many thanks

I'm sorry, I was absent from the Forum for over a month... didn't see your question until now.

They are my estimates from the information I've mentally assimilated from study of the metrical records of each parish (and a few hundred others) over the course of the last 15+ years.

For a detailed analysis of several early parishes -- some Greek Catholic, some Orthodox -- and their ethnonational development, see my article, "The Influence of Clergy and Fraternal Organizations on the Development of Ethnonational Identity among Rusyn Immigrants to Pennsylvania" in Carpatho-Rusyns and Their Neighbors: Essays in Honor of Paul Robert Magocsi . Edited by Bogdan Horbal, Patricia A. Krafcik, and Elaine Rusinko. Fairfax, VA: Eastern Christian Publications, 2006, pp. 43-106