|
Melodist
|
 |
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2011, 01:32:02 PM » |
|
Latin theology is the western theological tradition, traditionally based on the western fathers writing in the latin language. Eastern theology is the eastern theological tradition, traditionally based in the eastern fathers writing in the greek language. Due to cultural/language differences, the two traditions have formed distinct ways of expressing their theology.
If that's the case then I'm not sure how much I would agree that the distinction is valid, or at least is still valid. There seems to be a lot of cross-pollination to me. Since the schism, "latin" has also come to include the Roman Catholic continuation of latin theology developed while apart from Orthodoxy. Yea, I know what you mean as far as that goes. What I'm not sure I agree about is the idea that there are these two monolithic edifices, one of which is 'Latin Theology' and one of which is 'Eastern Theology', and that we can discuss the history of theology accurately in that way. Let's use the filioque as an example. The latin procedit does not equal the greek ekporeusis. The entire controversy surrounding it hinges on the false understanding that they do. The theology expressed in latin writings is fine, it does not belong in the creed. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Alcuin
Member
 Offline
Faith: Catholic
Posts: 122
|
|
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2011, 11:44:41 AM » |
|
That's a point of explicit doctrinal disagreement, which I was asking about earlier.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
James Joseph
Newbie
Offline
Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Rite (Latin)
Posts: 15
|
|
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2011, 05:33:22 PM » |
|
...how do you account for the Holy Spirit descending like a dove upon Jesus When he was Baptised by John? would not the Holy Spirit already be present with Jesus if he spirates From him as well?
Anyone more learned than I please correct My views from the orthodox perspective if i am wrong please
Part of the question, about the holy Spirit descending upon the man Jesus, here appears very similiar to that of the Theodotian sect, from around the year 190A.D. condemned by Pope Saint Victor the Martyr. Forgive me for noticing it. As it happens, I am currently wrapped-up writing about some of the early sects. Maybe we should discuss the mistakes of some of the early theologians we all can agree are in the wrong; so that, we can all remind ourselves what is certaintly wrong rather than vague. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 05:37:14 PM by James Joseph »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
Offline
Faith: Melkite
Posts: 4,943
|
|
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2012, 07:48:23 AM » |
|
Latin theology is the western theological tradition, traditionally based on the western fathers writing in the latin language. Eastern theology is the eastern theological tradition, traditionally based in the eastern fathers writing in the greek language. Due to cultural/language differences, the two traditions have formed distinct ways of expressing their theology.
If that's the case then I'm not sure how much I would agree that the distinction is valid, or at least is still valid. There seems to be a lot of cross-pollination to me. Since the schism, "latin" has also come to include the Roman Catholic continuation of latin theology developed while apart from Orthodoxy. Yea, I know what you mean as far as that goes. What I'm not sure I agree about is the idea that there are these two monolithic edifices, one of which is 'Latin Theology' and one of which is 'Eastern Theology', and that we can discuss the history of theology accurately in that way. Let's use the filioque as an example. The latin procedit does not equal the greek ekporeusis. The entire controversy surrounding it hinges on the false understanding that they do. The theology expressed in latin writings is fine, it does not belong in the creed. That's a point of explicit doctrinal disagreement, which I was asking about earlier.
No it isn't. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
|
|
|
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
Offline
Faith: Melkite
Posts: 4,943
|
|
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2012, 07:52:19 AM » |
|
We then come to the "Filioque" itself. If the Holy Spirit descends from the "Father and The Son" the Holy Spirit becomes less of an equal with the Father and The Son. If all of the Persons of the Holy Trinity are of the same essence, but each has different functions; the Original Nicean Creed minus the "Filioque" is correct and the Roman Catholic Church does indeed teach error.
John Lee
To me, this argument has always seems just as illogical as the reverse argument, namely that the Filioque is necessary in order to avoid Arianism. (I also don't know why you said "descends" rather than "proceeds", but I'll leave that aside.) |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
|
|
|
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
Offline
Faith: Melkite
Posts: 4,943
|
|
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2012, 07:56:13 AM » |
|
What's 'Latin' theology? What's 'Eastern' theology?
Good question. There seems to be an increasing trend to speak of Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, on the one hand, and Latin Catholics on the other hand. I'm not sure what to make of this.  P.S. I guess another way you could put it is that people are tending to see Eastern Catholicism not so much as the eastern-wing-of-Catholicism, but rather as the Catholic wing of the-Christian-East. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 08:01:37 AM by Peter J »
|
Logged
|
"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
|
|
|
Adela
Member
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 250
|
|
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2012, 08:13:23 AM » |
|
What's 'Latin' theology? What's 'Eastern' theology?
Good question. There seems to be an increasing trend to speak of Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, on the one hand, and Latin Catholics on the other hand. I'm not sure what to make of this. Possibly the difference is with Augustinian viewpoints on original sin and how this changes some viewpoints of God's relationship with mankind. (I'm wondering if the practice of self-flagellation of the middle ages came about because of this Augustinian viewpoint and how this relates to any Eastern Christian practices of self-denial, etc.) Another difference is the Latin focus on certain very famous Roman Catholic saints and their visions and practices without a balance of early pre-schism saints. To give due credit to the Roman Catholic side, there seems to be a large focus of the religious orders on active service (hospitals, teachers, etc.). There are contemplative orders, but many orders go out to nurse and care for the very poor and very ill. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Papist
|
|
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2012, 06:57:05 PM » |
|
Man, I really wish that I could delete some of my rudeness from these old threads.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
|
|
|
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 1,672
don't even go there!
|
 |
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2012, 01:28:57 PM » |
|
Lol, Papist! Well, I wish I could delete some of my antiChristian rants from the Internet from when I was an atheist but they're there forever. Just another reminder to think before you post. :-)
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
|
|
|
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
Offline
Faith: Melkite
Posts: 4,943
|
|
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2012, 10:01:39 AM » |
|
Nice to see you here, theistgal. when I was an atheist
You used to be an atheist? I don't I ever knew that (although I guess I should have suspected it from your screenname  ). |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
|
|
|
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 1,672
don't even go there!
|
|
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2012, 11:06:33 AM » |
|
Nice to see you here, theistgal. when I was an atheist
You used to be an atheist? I don't I ever knew that (although I guess I should have suspected it from your screenname ). Yep, I was the infamous "atheistgal" of yore.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2012, 11:10:09 AM » |
|
Nice to see you here, theistgal. when I was an atheist
You used to be an atheist? I don't I ever knew that (although I guess I should have suspected it from your screenname ). Yep, I was the infamous "atheistgal" of yore. What made you convert if I may ask? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 1,672
don't even go there!
|
|
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2012, 01:09:11 PM » |
|
Nice to see you here, theistgal. when I was an atheist
You used to be an atheist? I don't I ever knew that (although I guess I should have suspected it from your screenname ). Yep, I was the infamous "atheistgal" of yore. What made you convert if I may ask? The grace of God, and His long-suffering patience, not to mention His wonderful sense of humor, is about all I can come up with. I have actually gone back and forth between atheism and theism since my college days and it's not over; it's never really over till death. But in recent I've learned to see my latent theism as a chronic illness, and treat it as such. When it starts cropping up in my life, rather than try to suppress it and thus let it fester, I just say to God, "Hey Lord, I think I'm going to have to be an atheist for a while again," and He replies, "OK kiddo, let me know when you're ready to come back." And I always come back, because ultimately atheism = NOTHINGNESS and the closer I get to the end of my life, the more difficult that is to accept. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2012, 01:16:22 PM » |
|
Great to meet someone who came from atheism as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 1,672
don't even go there!
|
|
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2012, 01:21:58 PM » |
|
Great to meet someone who came from atheism as well.
I thought you looked familiar!  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2012, 01:22:59 PM » |
|
Great to meet someone who came from atheism as well.
I thought you looked familiar! Aye, we former atheists all look alike  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 1,672
don't even go there!
|
|
« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2012, 01:31:18 PM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
|
|
|
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
Offline
Faith: Melkite
Posts: 4,943
|
|
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2012, 12:00:08 PM » |
|
Cyrillic and theistgal,
Do you mean atheism literally (as distinct from agnosticism)?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2012, 12:09:24 PM » |
|
Cyrillic and theistgal,
Do you mean atheism literally (as distinct from agnosticism)?
In the sense that I knew for sure that there was no afterlife and that the universe and the world came into being by accident/any other way that could be fully rationally explained, the miracles in the Bible didn't happen and that the existence of God is very unlikely. Then again, I was never catechised. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 12:10:32 PM by Cyrillic »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
Offline
Faith: Melkite
Posts: 4,943
|
|
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2012, 05:10:05 PM » |
|
Just checking. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
|
|
|
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
Offline
Faith: Melkite
Posts: 4,943
|
|
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2012, 05:14:06 PM » |
|
Side question: did you see the thread on this forum, in which someone claimed that agnosticism doesn't even exist?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2012, 05:19:14 PM » |
|
Side question: did you see the thread on this forum, in which someone claimed that agnosticism doesn't even exist?
Real agnosticism doesn't exist IMO. Most agnostics are just hipster atheists. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 1,672
don't even go there!
|
|
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2012, 01:49:37 PM » |
|
Side question: did you see the thread on this forum, in which someone claimed that agnosticism doesn't even exist?
Real agnosticism doesn't exist IMO. Most agnostics are just hipster atheists. Maybe, but agnosticism is a venerable term, which to me conjures up images of people like Mark Twain or Robert Ingersoll. I'd much rather be perceived as an "agnostic" than one of those mean, nasty "atheists". (Er, that's a joke, atheists! I don't think you're really mean and nasty! Don't tase me bro! ). |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
|
|
|
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
Offline
Faith: Melkite
Posts: 4,943
|
|
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2012, 09:34:16 AM » |
|
Side question: did you see the thread on this forum, in which someone claimed that agnosticism doesn't even exist?
Real agnosticism doesn't exist IMO. Most agnostics are just hipster atheists. Hmm ... well, I guess that's not as extreme as the other poster who was saying that agnosticism is absolutely impossible. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
|
|
|
Pharaoh714
Jr. Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 43
|
|
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2012, 10:06:09 AM » |
|
[/quote]
The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah.
[/quote]
St Cyrils 12 Anathemas, Anathema #3
"If anyone shall after the [hypostatic] union divide the hypostases in the one Christ, joining them by that connexion alone, which happens according to worthiness, or even authority and power, and not rather by a coming together, which is made by natural union: let him be anathema.
Also Keep in mind the Apostles received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost through Christ.
John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2
Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"If I say, "My foot slips," Your mercy, O LORD, will hold me up. In the multitude of my anxieties within me, Your comforts delight my soul." Psalm 94:18-19
|
|
|
|
ialmisry
|
|
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2012, 10:51:12 AM » |
|
The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah.
St Cyrils 12 Anathemas, Anathema #3 "If anyone shall after the [hypostatic] union divide the hypostases in the one Christ, joining them by that connexion alone, which happens according to worthiness, or even authority and power, and not rather by a coming together, which is made by natural union: let him be anathema. Also Keep in mind the Apostles received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost through Christ. John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “ Receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 2 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Pope St. Cyril speaks of the Holy Spirit descending on Christ to anoint Him as Messiah in his "On the Unity of Christ" in several places. Btw, the OP might find something for its case on the Miaphysite Christology blogspot: http://miaphysitism.blogspot.com/2012/11/severus-ibn-al-muqaffa-i-on.html |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 10:55:21 AM by ialmisry »
|
Logged
|
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
|
|
|
|
