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Author Topic: How has becoming Orthodox from Roman Catholic changed you?  (Read 26754 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #225 on: August 07, 2012, 12:54:27 PM »

This much I will say - the SSPX are closer to the spirit and theology of Orthodoxy - the true church - than most of the Latin schismatic church.

If they are or were schismatic, it was NOT by choice, the traditional latin mass in latin may have ceased to exist without them.
They're motives for avoiding local RC churches are only to protect their families and protect the faith.
I would hope they would elicit a small amount of compassion and understanding even though they are not Orthodox.

There are times when heresies have been promoted in the RC churches of today in a way greater than before 1960.
It could come in various forms, whether in the actions, the words of the homlies, words of the music or pamphlets in the back of the church, they are out there and they are harmful.


The idea that there is no classical western theology, doctrine, spirituality or liturgical practice in Novus Ordo parishes, based on upon the errors of the few, is false.
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« Reply #226 on: August 07, 2012, 01:13:01 PM »

The novus ordo archbishop:

http://cathcon.blogspot.com/2012/05/dalai-lama-attends-pentecost-mass-of.html

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A293rBalloonMass.html

The SSPX archbishop:

« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 01:14:52 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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« Reply #227 on: August 07, 2012, 01:15:01 PM »

"compassion and understanding" you are right...like the SSPX woman I knew,
Who told her sons and husband to shun me because I was a "schismatic and heretic"
When I became Orthodox, and the SSPX member who informed me I was destined
For Hell, since I was an "apostate" from Roman Catholicism.
Who had no respect any more for the Holy Father. In my experience there's a lot
Of Papistry in the SSPX , not meant in the pejorative Protestant sense, but in the
Objective descriptive sense , meaning a worship of Popes and the Papal taking a
Prominent place in their mindset.
I am pretty certain they say the Creed with the Filioque in it too, so I won't
Be losing any sleep about any lack of "compassion" for them, I found them quite
Sinister, and a number of them I met informally have what I would describe as a fairly
'forgiving" attitude to European Fascism of the 1930s and 1940s, and a soft spot
For Generallissimo Franco....sorry THAT definitely wasn't my cup of tea...
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« Reply #228 on: August 07, 2012, 01:18:40 PM »

If they are or were schismatic, it was NOT by choice, the traditional latin mass in latin may have ceased to exist without them.
They're motives for avoiding local RC churches are only to protect their families and protect the faith.
I would hope they would elicit a small amount of compassion and understanding even though they are not Orthodox.

I'm definitely sympathetic, but it WAS by choice. After all, Spanish Catholics didn't go into schism in order to protect the traditional Mozarabic mass.
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« Reply #229 on: August 07, 2012, 01:20:32 PM »

Ok...so now we know that you have learned to witness falsely without saying many words.  Given your choices, I suppose it is going to come in handy.

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Christopher McAvoy
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« Reply #230 on: August 07, 2012, 01:42:55 PM »

That's true, that the SSPX is part of the papal system and is likely to refer to an Orthodox Catholic christian as potentially going to hell for example, but is that really any different than what the Orthodox think of them in return? That for me is a given.

The "compassion and understanding" I refer to is ment to be seen within the context of the papal system they're in, it is a given that they are not Orthodox. We have no requirement to sympathize with them. It is only a wishful thought on my part, as one who was once one of them. I wouldn't losing any sleep not having "compassion" for them either, though I personally do.

There's not much choice in avoiding far right political leanings if one meets traditional latin catholics. That goes with the territory and is unavoidable.

SOmetimes in order to find the true faith you have to deal with the secular political baggage that comes with it. You may not agree with it, but you ought to understand this is where other people were led to be. For better and for worse, far right has always supported and or exploited traditional forms of christianity more strongly than the left. That ought to be common sense.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 01:44:47 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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« Reply #231 on: August 07, 2012, 01:52:08 PM »

I did not bear a false witness against Cardinal Schonborn who installs homosexuals on parish councils and puts the dalai lama behind him in the pentecost mass - both within the last 6 monthes.

What is wrong with pictures? Pictures are worth a thousand words. I am no worse than Michael Voris in that regard.
I am not the one who helped smash stained glass windows , break and remove altars that were bought with parsishoners hard earned money during the 1960's and replace than with either nothing or something very ugly that was intentioned to lead us into heresy and protestant ideaology. Perhaps many are too young and ignorant to know how intense the revolution of the 60's was in the latin churches and how much of its effects are profoundly within them today.

Quote
The idea that there is no classical western theology, doctrine, spirituality or liturgical practice in Novus Ordo parishes, based on upon the errors of the few, is false.

This I never said either. I agree that remanants of this remain, just as they remain in a Lutheran or Anglican church. I would also say those remnants within the average church of the roman communion of today are usually much stronger than those remaining in the protestants churches. Nevertheless they are typically weaker and less orthodox than the SSPX churches in my experience.  

I congratulate those prelates within the roman communion who are more orthodox and are fighting against the demonic influences or ignorance of other prelates. Unfortunately they are a minority whose influence has not yet been able to be strong enough and achieve all that much. I learned this first hand when Cardinal Wuerl helped appoint a liberal priest named Msgr. Steenson in January of 2012 as head of the USA anglican-use ordinariate who cracks down on the ex-anglicans that celebrate latin masses in private.
Who wants to be part of that? Who wants to be a priest who is banished and exiled only because you do the right thing?

The battle between good and evil exists everywhere.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 02:00:24 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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« Reply #232 on: August 07, 2012, 01:59:38 PM »

I did not bear a false witness against Cardinal Schonborn who installs homosexuals on parish councils and puts the dalai lama behind him in the pentecost mass - both within the last 6 monthes.

What is wrong with pictures? Pictures are worth a thousand words. I am no worse than Michael Voris in that regard.

Quote
The idea that there is no classical western theology, doctrine, spirituality or liturgical practice in Novus Ordo parishes, based on upon the errors of the few, is false.

This I never said either. I agree that remanants of this remain, just as they remain in a Lutheran or Anglican church. I would also say those remnants within the average church of the roman communion of today are usually much stronger than those remaining in the protestants churches. Nevertheless they are typically weaker and less orthodox than the SSPX churches in my experience. 

That is nonsense.  It leaves out millions of people who are orthodox in their faith at all levels.  That is why you have to speak in broad sweeping statements.  The life on the ground of real live Catholics gives the lie to your witness.  You cannot even begin to acknowledge that they exist.  Because of the way that you do things, you will never find real peace, however far you run.

I don't have a difficulty with Catholics moving into Orthodoxy, but I think you are in for a rude awakening one day.  I only wish you well and hope there is more awakening than rudeness in your future... Wink

Mary
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« Reply #233 on: August 07, 2012, 02:12:28 PM »

Quote
That is nonsense.  It leaves out millions of people who are orthodox in their faith at all levels.  That is why you have to speak in broad sweeping statements.  The life on the ground of real live Catholics gives the lie to your witness.  You cannot even begin to acknowledge that they exist.  Because of the way that you do things, you will never find real peace, however far you run.

Elijah, I never said this either.

In fact that is probably the most important point you make, which I agree with whole heartedly.
When I some time ago attempted to correct liturgical abuses at a local "novus ordo" mass, it was many other lay people who were in agreement and working harmoniously with me. It was the priest and bishop who refused to correct them who were primarily the problem.

The majority of the laity in this cases tended to accept whatever was given to them, even if they privately were uncomfortable with it (connected sometimes also to an overly authoritarian problem, refusing to question authority), or attend a different diocese/church if possible.  But for myself this proved over time, many years time, to be an inconsistent solution. Thus I concluded when there are numerous nearby Orthodox Churches that do not deviate from the faith or contain liturgical abuses, there would be no reason not to place myself in communion with them. This came after many years of study and experience however, I did not conclude in my mind they were the true church immediately over night, even though my heart was moved toward that belief very quickly.

If anything can save the Roman communion it is the lay people. Even though some are confused, or given in too much to evil, many of the "church militant" do not. Their wouldn't be that many home schooling families around the country and "independent non-diocesan" latin catholic schools if this were not true. http://ejournals.bc.edu/ojs/index.php/catholic/article/view/1034
www.napcis.org "The National Association of Private Catholic and Independent Schools".

 The lay people who remain comparatively orthodox in their practices and are not able to put their ideas into practice, much as during communist periods in eastern europe, they are in a sense underground in the catacombs.

It is without question that the bishops primarily, and lower ranking clergy under there thumb secondarily, are where the most profound problems lie at present within the latin church .

Those who are the most heretical will hopefully, as time takes its toll, no longer be with us, and have more traditional clerics replace them.

All of this being said may have a less severe, analogous situation within the Orthodox Church as well, but it would not be prudent for me at this time to make that comparison. Surely someone wiser and more qualified would be welcomed to do that another time, if if they haven't already. The OCA particularly comes to mind as having some vague resemblence.

This is however all speculation for the future.
There is equally an importance in the present life of parishes, the "here and now".
The Church as it is now, not a future corrected "pseudi-utopia" that never has been.

That is why I am Orthodox, I live for the present time, as much as I hope for my salvation in the future.
I am content with the average life of Orthodox parishes, where I was not content with average life of the latin rite catholic ones.
And as for byzantine catholic, i wanted consistency. Orthodoxy has the consistency and is not afraid to defend the truth.
The byzantine catholics tend to cower down to the latins and refused to criticize them too strongly, which only leads to their own decline, as St. Alexis Toth would testify to.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 02:31:59 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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« Reply #234 on: August 07, 2012, 03:06:03 PM »

This is much better than what we just passed through...thank you!! 

I hope and pray that one day you release the need to be critical at all.  You cannot judge the Body of Christ by her faithless members.

If you have entered or will enter into Orthodoxy for the salvation of your soul, then God bless!

Let that be enough to say, and let the rest go.  There's plenty for you to do and to become, without looking back or being critical.

M.
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« Reply #235 on: August 07, 2012, 03:07:31 PM »

Quote
That is nonsense.  It leaves out millions of people who are orthodox in their faith at all levels.  That is why you have to speak in broad sweeping statements.  The life on the ground of real live Catholics gives the lie to your witness.  You cannot even begin to acknowledge that they exist.  Because of the way that you do things, you will never find real peace, however far you run.

Elijah, I never said this either.

In fact that is probably the most important point you make, which I agree with whole heartedly.
When I some time ago attempted to correct liturgical abuses at a local "novus ordo" mass, it was many other lay people who were in agreement and working harmoniously with me. It was the priest and bishop who refused to correct them who were primarily the problem.

The majority of the laity in this cases tended to accept whatever was given to them, even if they privately were uncomfortable with it (connected sometimes also to an overly authoritarian problem, refusing to question authority), or attend a different diocese/church if possible.  But for myself this proved over time, many years time, to be an inconsistent solution. Thus I concluded when there are numerous nearby Orthodox Churches that do not deviate from the faith or contain liturgical abuses, there would be no reason not to place myself in communion with them. This came after many years of study and experience however, I did not conclude in my mind they were the true church immediately over night, even though my heart was moved toward that belief very quickly.

If anything can save the Roman communion it is the lay people. Even though some are confused, or given in too much to evil, many of the "church militant" do not. Their wouldn't be that many home schooling families around the country and "independent non-diocesan" latin catholic schools if this were not true. http://ejournals.bc.edu/ojs/index.php/catholic/article/view/1034
www.napcis.org "The National Association of Private Catholic and Independent Schools".

 The lay people who remain comparatively orthodox in their practices and are not able to put their ideas into practice, much as during communist periods in eastern europe, they are in a sense underground in the catacombs.

It is without question that the bishops primarily, and lower ranking clergy under there thumb secondarily, are where the most profound problems lie at present within the latin church .

Those who are the most heretical will hopefully, as time takes its toll, no longer be with us, and have more traditional clerics replace them.

All of this being said may have a less severe, analogous situation within the Orthodox Church as well, but it would not be prudent for me at this time to make that comparison. Surely someone wiser and more qualified would be welcomed to do that another time, if if they haven't already. The OCA particularly comes to mind as having some vague resemblence.

This is however all speculation for the future.
There is equally an importance in the present life of parishes, the "here and now".
The Church as it is now, not a future corrected "pseudi-utopia" that never has been.

That is why I am Orthodox, I live for the present time, as much as I hope for my salvation in the future.
I am content with the average life of Orthodox parishes, where I was not content with average life of the latin rite catholic ones.
And as for byzantine catholic, i wanted consistency. Orthodoxy has the consistency and is not afraid to defend the truth.
The byzantine catholics tend to cower down to the latins and refused to criticize them too strongly, which only leads to their own decline, as St. Alexis Toth would testify to.

What does it mean to be "comparatively orthodox"? Compared to being an outright heretic? But how can any form of the Roman liturgy be orthodox? Whether Latin or vernacular, Tridentine or Novus Ordo, the liturgy itself contains hertical beliefs. If this were not the case, then choosing to be Roman or Greek Catholic would simply be a matter of preference and not a reflection of our understanding of God's truth.

This whole SSPX diversion has brought us right into the middle of relativism: Romans are closer than Anglicans are closer than Presbyterians are closer than Mormons. Isn't the point that NONE of them are truly orthodox? By how much they diverge is surly irrelevant if they diverge at all?
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« Reply #236 on: August 07, 2012, 04:12:31 PM »

What does it mean to be "comparatively orthodox"? Compared to being an outright heretic? But how can any form of the Roman liturgy be orthodox? Whether Latin or vernacular, Tridentine or Novus Ordo, the liturgy itself contains hertical beliefs. If this were not the case, then choosing to be Roman or Greek Catholic would simply be a matter of preference and not a reflection of our understanding of God's truth.

My experience has been that Orthodox don't consider either Greek Catholics or "Roman" Catholics to be orthodox.
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« Reply #237 on: August 07, 2012, 04:25:54 PM »

What does it mean to be "comparatively orthodox"? Compared to being an outright heretic? But how can any form of the Roman liturgy be orthodox? Whether Latin or vernacular, Tridentine or Novus Ordo, the liturgy itself contains hertical beliefs. If this were not the case, then choosing to be Roman or Greek Catholic would simply be a matter of preference and not a reflection of our understanding of God's truth.

My experience has been that Orthodox don't consider either Greek Catholics or "Roman" Catholics to be orthodox.

I'm using the term "Greek Catholic" in the sense my church does. Before it became autocephalous in 1970, it was the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Christian Church. The Eastern Rite is a whole other thread I really hope we can avoid discussing here.
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« Reply #238 on: August 07, 2012, 04:39:36 PM »

The SSPX is one of the reasons that lead me to Orthodoxy.  Their existence in close proximity of the Catholic Church has made me question the resolve of the Catholic bishops to uphold the faith and the standards of what makes a Catholic a Catholic.  First of all the SSPX, being Catholics, are subject to the authority and will of the Pope.  The very fact that they have acted disobediently time and time again shows the true spirit of their movement.  They normally resort to poor arguments with questionable reasoning on why they do what they do.  The attitude they exhude is contrary to good Christian attitude, they normally see themselves as above everyone else who does not believe as they do and do as they do.

To me they are nothing more than wolves in sheep's clothing.  They put on the cloak of traditionalism to coax devout Catholics to taking their side.  The fact that the Catholic Church is trying to get them into the fold without having them atone for their pride astounds me.  What is the need for the SSPX?  There are loyal traditional groups in the Catholic Church today like the FSSP who is doing a great job of promoting the traditional Mass and preserving the traditional spirituality of the Latin Rite.
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« Reply #239 on: August 07, 2012, 05:40:54 PM »

When people participate in the discussion who claim they are canonically Orthodox (Eastern rite Catholics) but are not recognized as such by those who are, it adds to the confusion. It is understandable that these confused ecumenically minded people are the ones who were most repelled by an SSPX chapel which is very against the false ecumenism that is held between Cardinal Christoph Schornborn and the Dalai Llama, as noted above.

I am unaware of any Eastern catholic church in union with Rome that officially refers or calls itself Orthodox. That seems to be a recent wacky vatican II ecumenical movement amongst lay people. These are the same lay people that show up once in a while at a bonafide Orthodox church that really does call have on it's sign the word "Orthodox" and become upset because they are denied the communion they have feel they have a right to receive. A right they forfeit because it is counter to being in communion with the Pope. They're nice people but also totally confused !! I've known a few from time to time. At one point I went with a Melkite acquantaince to a Greek Orthodox Church, who was interested in receiving the eucharist, to which the Greek Orthodox priest who said "I could give you communion but than you'd be recognized by both Constantinople and Rome as excommunicating yourself from Rome, are you prepared to do that?" for me I immediately understood that would be a bad idea to do something that symbolized what I did not at the time believe in, others are not so easily convinced ! Some want to have their cake and eat it too.

Quote
This whole SSPX diversion has brought us right into the middle of relativism: Romans are closer than Anglicans are closer than Presbyterians are closer than Mormons. Isn't the point that NONE of them are truly orthodox? By how much they diverge is surly irrelevant if they diverge at all? - Hermogenes
I agree that moral relativism is wrong. My understanding is that the (Eastern) Orthodox Catholic Church teaches that the papal catholic church communion is a schismatic body, in which there may be a few heretical beliefs being held, which are not fundamental to the faith, but that it is not on the level of heresy that protestantism abides by, in which the heresies are fundamental to the faith. Therefore I feel that though none of these others truly orthodox, one  particular group is without question, by it's nature profoundly more close to being Orthodox than the other body. That group is the papal group. For some this is meaningless, for others there is an intrigueing potential in which they are more easily for that reason able to recognize the fullness of truth within Orthodoxy. I think the line is certainly drawn being relativism, but in a charitable manner.

Quote
I hope and pray that one day you release the need to be critical at all. - elijahmaria
 
With that perspective one would likely view Mr. Michael Voris as being a bad catholic. Yet he is not viewed that way by most lay people in communion with Rome, but as a lay person helping guard the faith. Part of being critical comes from love to protect ourselves and our societies, as a child wants it's parent to learn from their mistake. Christ was critical!, being critical is not wrong, if done out of love and with areas of the faith that are "non-negotiable". This is an important part of the faith and teaching of the Orthodox Church (by default also older historic latin rite Orthodoxy of pre-1054, continuing to be part of it in some way even now).
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 05:45:37 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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« Reply #240 on: August 07, 2012, 05:53:04 PM »

Quote
There are loyal traditional groups in the Catholic Church today like the FSSP who is doing a great job of promoting the traditional Mass and preserving the traditional spirituality of the Latin Rite.

For those who don't know the FSSP has since 1988 experienced intense persecution from the majority of Latin rite bishops.
In most cases, the only reason the FSSP was allowed to celebrate mass regularly in a diocese was in order to compete with an SSPX or other independent traditional latin mass church that the bishop did not want there.

This happened in the diocese of Harrisburg, PA in 2005 with the Mater Dei community in St. Lawrence chapel forming with the permission of bishop Kevin Rhodes to compete against the chapel of St. Peter and Paul in York, PA which had been requesting a latin mass for its people for a decade or more, and finally found an independent priest to do it without the diocese permission. (That priest turned out later to have been a pedophile sadly ! which caused more scandal.)

It's no different than the situation in Baltimore, MD where the officially diocesan St. Alphonsus church trad. latin mass was set up in 1991 to compete with the non-diocesan independent SSPV chapel on the other side of town.

Nor is it different than situations in Richmond and Virginia Beach, VA where the very same situation existed. A successful SSPX chapel needed to be stopped - they sent in the FSSP to compete - but 20 years too late, after they were totally entrenched and the people attending were mostly alienated and mistrustful of their local bishops, therefore more of the success at the FSSP churches came from new converts and younger people who didnt know their history, not the original flocks they intended it for.

Very few of the dioceses willingly helped or endorsed the FSSP.
They only sought out their assistance when they felt they had no other option.
That tells you everything. They had deep prejudiced against them. Many bishops still do.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 05:56:41 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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« Reply #241 on: August 07, 2012, 07:01:29 PM »

Quote
There are loyal traditional groups in the Catholic Church today like the FSSP who is doing a great job of promoting the traditional Mass and preserving the traditional spirituality of the Latin Rite.

For those who don't know the FSSP has since 1988 experienced intense persecution from the majority of Latin rite bishops.
In most cases, the only reason the FSSP was allowed to celebrate mass regularly in a diocese was in order to compete with an SSPX or other independent traditional latin mass church that the bishop did not want there.

This happened in the diocese of Harrisburg, PA in 2005 with the Mater Dei community in St. Lawrence chapel forming with the permission of bishop Kevin Rhodes to compete against the chapel of St. Peter and Paul in York, PA which had been requesting a latin mass for its people for a decade or more, and finally found an independent priest to do it without the diocese permission. (That priest turned out later to have been a pedophile sadly ! which caused more scandal.)

It's no different than the situation in Baltimore, MD where the officially diocesan St. Alphonsus church trad. latin mass was set up in 1991 to compete with the non-diocesan independent SSPV chapel on the other side of town.

Nor is it different than situations in Richmond and Virginia Beach, VA where the very same situation existed. A successful SSPX chapel needed to be stopped - they sent in the FSSP to compete - but 20 years too late, after they were totally entrenched and the people attending were mostly alienated and mistrustful of their local bishops, therefore more of the success at the FSSP churches came from new converts and younger people who didnt know their history, not the original flocks they intended it for.

Very few of the dioceses willingly helped or endorsed the FSSP.
They only sought out their assistance when they felt they had no other option.
That tells you everything. They had deep prejudiced against them. Many bishops still do.

True enough.  But fact is, we have the FSSP now, why bother with the SSPX?
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« Reply #242 on: August 07, 2012, 07:40:16 PM »

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There are loyal traditional groups in the Catholic Church today like the FSSP who is doing a great job of promoting the traditional Mass and preserving the traditional spirituality of the Latin Rite.

For those who don't know the FSSP has since 1988 experienced intense persecution from the majority of Latin rite bishops.
In most cases, the only reason the FSSP was allowed to celebrate mass regularly in a diocese was in order to compete with an SSPX or other independent traditional latin mass church that the bishop did not want there.

This happened in the diocese of Harrisburg, PA in 2005 with the Mater Dei community in St. Lawrence chapel forming with the permission of bishop Kevin Rhodes to compete against the chapel of St. Peter and Paul in York, PA which had been requesting a latin mass for its people for a decade or more, and finally found an independent priest to do it without the diocese permission. (That priest turned out later to have been a pedophile sadly ! which caused more scandal.)

It's no different than the situation in Baltimore, MD where the officially diocesan St. Alphonsus church trad. latin mass was set up in 1991 to compete with the non-diocesan independent SSPV chapel on the other side of town.

Nor is it different than situations in Richmond and Virginia Beach, VA where the very same situation existed. A successful SSPX chapel needed to be stopped - they sent in the FSSP to compete - but 20 years too late, after they were totally entrenched and the people attending were mostly alienated and mistrustful of their local bishops, therefore more of the success at the FSSP churches came from new converts and younger people who didnt know their history, not the original flocks they intended it for.

Very few of the dioceses willingly helped or endorsed the FSSP.
They only sought out their assistance when they felt they had no other option.
That tells you everything. They had deep prejudiced against them. Many bishops still do.

True enough.  But fact is, we have the FSSP now, why bother with the SSPX?

Why bother with either. Is that you are Orthodox?
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« Reply #243 on: August 07, 2012, 08:03:19 PM »

What does it mean to be "comparatively orthodox"? Compared to being an outright heretic? But how can any form of the Roman liturgy be orthodox? Whether Latin or vernacular, Tridentine or Novus Ordo, the liturgy itself contains hertical beliefs. If this were not the case, then choosing to be Roman or Greek Catholic would simply be a matter of preference and not a reflection of our understanding of God's truth.

My experience has been that Orthodox don't consider either Greek Catholics or "Roman" Catholics to be orthodox.

I'm using the term "Greek Catholic" in the sense my church does. Before it became autocephalous in 1970, it was the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Christian Church. The Eastern Rite is a whole other thread I really hope we can avoid discussing here.

OIC. In that case, I think I also misunderstood you when you said "Roman Catholic", a phrase that many on OCnet substitute in place of "Latin Catholic".
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« Reply #244 on: August 07, 2012, 08:23:11 PM »

What does it mean to be "comparatively orthodox"? Compared to being an outright heretic? But how can any form of the Roman liturgy be orthodox? Whether Latin or vernacular, Tridentine or Novus Ordo, the liturgy itself contains hertical beliefs. If this were not the case, then choosing to be Roman or Greek Catholic would simply be a matter of preference and not a reflection of our understanding of God's truth.

My experience has been that Orthodox don't consider either Greek Catholics or "Roman" Catholics to be orthodox.

I'm using the term "Greek Catholic" in the sense my church does. Before it became autocephalous in 1970, it was the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Christian Church. The Eastern Rite is a whole other thread I really hope we can avoid discussing here.

OIC. In that case, I think I also misunderstood you when you said "Roman Catholic", a phrase that many on OCnet substitute in place of "Latin Catholic".

It's hard to be clear. If I say Eastern Orthodox, am I also including the Oriental churches? Oriental means eastern, after all. The unified church that split in 1054 had fewer moving parts. Latin and Greek mostly covered it.
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« Reply #245 on: August 07, 2012, 08:50:17 PM »

Why bother with either. Is that you are Orthodox?

I am still Catholic, which is why it bothers me.
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« Reply #246 on: August 07, 2012, 11:33:30 PM »

What does it mean to be "comparatively orthodox"? Compared to being an outright heretic? But how can any form of the Roman liturgy be orthodox? Whether Latin or vernacular, Tridentine or Novus Ordo, the liturgy itself contains hertical beliefs. If this were not the case, then choosing to be Roman or Greek Catholic would simply be a matter of preference and not a reflection of our understanding of God's truth.

My experience has been that Orthodox don't consider either Greek Catholics or "Roman" Catholics to be orthodox.

I'm using the term "Greek Catholic" in the sense my church does. Before it became autocephalous in 1970, it was the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Christian Church. The Eastern Rite is a whole other thread I really hope we can avoid discussing here.

OIC. In that case, I think I also misunderstood you when you said "Roman Catholic", a phrase that many on OCnet substitute in place of "Latin Catholic".

It's hard to be clear. If I say Eastern Orthodox, am I also including the Oriental churches? Oriental means eastern, after all. The unified church that split in 1054 had fewer moving parts. Latin and Greek mostly covered it.

May I ask what you are hoping to learn? I know there's a snobbery to Orthodoxy sometimes ("The One True Church"), but if I might make a suggestion? Just go to a couple of churches, maybe at least one Russian and one Greek, just for an overview, and pay attention to your own interior responses during and after. I love my co-religionists, but I'm a leftie 60s liberal, so you can guess how often I hear stuff that irritates me. But in the midst of prayer, or, especially, Divine Liturgy, inevitably it melts away and leaves me with a feeling of presence. The only other place I've ever found anything close to it (and I'm frankly afraid to mention it) has been on long zen meditation retreats.
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« Reply #247 on: October 23, 2013, 03:13:19 PM »

I think the worst thing is perhaps becoming like an 'Intellectual" like Adolf Von Harnack. He read the Fathers and the writings of the early Church. He  even confirmed what they taught , but refused to convert out of indifferentism!  On the other hand a man like Dostoevsky found God again and came back to the Orthodox Faith. God works in mysterious ways when it comes to the hearts of men.  Men disbelieve God when they become god in their own minds .
Random google search led me to this thread, but I like this part.
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« Reply #248 on: October 23, 2013, 03:15:31 PM »

I think the worst thing is perhaps becoming like an 'Intellectual" like Adolf Von Harnack. He read the Fathers and the writings of the early Church. He  even confirmed what they taught , but refused to convert out of indifferentism!

Have you read what Harnack wrote about the Orthodox Church?

Edit: I just realised that I responded to a post from two years ago. Nothing to see here. Carry on.
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« Reply #249 on: October 23, 2013, 03:33:54 PM »

Still making the journey but I have started thinking like an Orthodox now. I was with the whole SSPX thing and was really a Pharisee sometimes, and not to boast, but dealt with some that were really bad. I at least always had the grace to know I was nothing more than a poor sinner, but I dealt with a self-righteous girl who got hung up on other girls wearing pants or how long their dress is. She ended up getting pregnant out of wedlock, justifying living with her boyfriend. But I am a poor sinner. And there are a lot of good people in the SSPX/Trad Catholic movement so not to throw em all in one basked but basically I will list ten things:

1. Less judgmental/ negative
2. Less neurotic/More calm. Still deal with my neurosis, but learning to be calm and in control of myself helps.
3. More humble and compassionate to everyone
4. Deeper communion with God.
5. More practical in my politics. Got out of the whole "monarchist" thing. I do tend to be more in favour of monarchy, but I try to make the best of a bad situation. In terms of my politics I tend to be conservative on issues like homosexuality and abortion of course, but I guess most of my friends on the right would consider me progressive on issues like unions, workers rights, healthcare reform, etc. The Rad Trad types have a very strange pathology that is not healthy. I'd rather not get into politics though. Just saying it has made my politics more practical though I am not a pushover--too many people are today.
6. Less scrupulous. In fact I do not deal with "scruples" so much as I suppose, as I mentioned elsewhere, fears of death. That is part of my neurosis though.
7. More dutiful to my parents and work. Still struggle with my sloth and pride, but you see your sins in a different way. You see yourself as the worst of sinners and then have a health compassion on yourself. Hard to explain.


Well I can only think of seven or that is all I want to think up.
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« Reply #250 on: October 23, 2013, 04:04:07 PM »

Still making the journey but I have started thinking like an Orthodox now. I was with the whole SSPX thing and was really a Pharisee sometimes, and not to boast, but dealt with some that were really bad. I at least always had the grace to know I was nothing more than a poor sinner, but I dealt with a self-righteous girl who got hung up on other girls wearing pants or how long their dress is. She ended up getting pregnant out of wedlock, justifying living with her boyfriend. But I am a poor sinner. And there are a lot of good people in the SSPX/Trad Catholic movement so not to throw em all in one basked but basically I will list ten things:

1. Less judgmental/ negative
2. Less neurotic/More calm. Still deal with my neurosis, but learning to be calm and in control of myself helps.
3. More humble and compassionate to everyone
4. Deeper communion with God.
5. More practical in my politics. Got out of the whole "monarchist" thing. I do tend to be more in favour of monarchy, but I try to make the best of a bad situation. In terms of my politics I tend to be conservative on issues like homosexuality and abortion of course, but I guess most of my friends on the right would consider me progressive on issues like unions, workers rights, healthcare reform, etc. The Rad Trad types have a very strange pathology that is not healthy. I'd rather not get into politics though. Just saying it has made my politics more practical though I am not a pushover--too many people are today.
6. Less scrupulous. In fact I do not deal with "scruples" so much as I suppose, as I mentioned elsewhere, fears of death. That is part of my neurosis though.
7. More dutiful to my parents and work. Still struggle with my sloth and pride, but you see your sins in a different way. You see yourself as the worst of sinners and then have a health compassion on yourself. Hard to explain.


Well I can only think of seven or that is all I want to think up.

That's a great list. Do you mind if you expand a little on how SSPX aggravated your tendencies here and contrariwise how Orthodoxy helped to assuage them?
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« Reply #251 on: October 23, 2013, 06:09:32 PM »

Yeah, the whole infighting with the SSPX and SSPX Resistance did it for me. That and the fact that the parishes I were going to were small and one could not find a "traditional" Catholic girlfriend/wife. I decided I would just go to the "Indult" or Novus Ordo if I had to. The problem with the SSPX is that they are not in full communion with Rome, so they pretty much think they can do what they want without any authority like the Pope they claim to submit to. I mean Bishop Fellay kicked out Bishop Williamson and some other priests because they spoke out against him talking to Rome. Then Bishop Fellay goes on and calls Pope Francis a modernists. It just got ridiculous. It was not good for my soul. But I always like the Eastern liturgy. Had a dark night of the soul and started to consider agnosticism or something like that so decided to look into the claims of Eastern Orthodoxy.

I would say Orthodoxy helped because I am not worried about every little sin being a fall, dividing mortal and venial sins and so forth. That actually makes trying to live a harder life harder, especially if you have a tendency to scruples. I really like the Jesus Prayer because it is simple and can be prayed while doing something else and yet teaches a lot, like humility and trusting in the mercy of God.
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« Reply #252 on: October 23, 2013, 06:58:06 PM »

I think the worst thing is perhaps becoming like an 'Intellectual" like Adolf Von Harnack. He read the Fathers and the writings of the early Church. He  even confirmed what they taught , but refused to convert out of indifferentism!

Have you read what Harnack wrote about the Orthodox Church?

Edit: I just realised that I responded to a post from two years ago. Nothing to see here. Carry on.
What did he write?
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« Reply #253 on: October 23, 2013, 08:08:17 PM »

Also on a positive note it has made me look more into the proper understanding of the reason of the Incarnation. Roman Catholicism does this, in theory, but the Novus Ordo is so out of it, most of them, and the "trads" are so into fighting modernism that you do not see the same emphasis on the the Incarnation, but most of all on the Passion and Christ suffering to satisfy the anger of the Father. I know in theory Catholics do have a more or less proper idea of the Incarnation, Passion and Resurrection but the problem of the whole West seems to be an over-emphasis on the life and suffering of Christ, rather than the purpose of that life--to die that he might descend into Hades and rise again overcoming Death. Christ did not need to satisfy some anger within the Eternal Essence or Eternal Energies, and Catholics will admit this, but it is Orthodoxy that has the balance. Now we see the Logos became flesh in order to overcome Death, which man had inherited.
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« Reply #254 on: October 24, 2013, 04:00:11 AM »

I think the worst thing is perhaps becoming like an 'Intellectual" like Adolf Von Harnack. He read the Fathers and the writings of the early Church. He  even confirmed what they taught , but refused to convert out of indifferentism!

Have you read what Harnack wrote about the Orthodox Church?

Edit: I just realised that I responded to a post from two years ago. Nothing to see here. Carry on.
What did he write?

Among other things: "The Orthodox Church is in her entire structure alien to the gospel and represents a perversion of the Christian religion, its reduction to the level of pagan antiquity."

No, he wasn't indifferent.
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« Reply #255 on: October 24, 2013, 01:08:17 PM »

Among other things: "The Orthodox Church is in her entire structure alien to the gospel and represents a perversion of the Christian religion, its reduction to the level of pagan antiquity."

Did Harnack stumble across an internet discussion forum?
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« Reply #256 on: October 24, 2013, 01:33:49 PM »

I think the worst thing is perhaps becoming like an 'Intellectual" like Adolf Von Harnack. He read the Fathers and the writings of the early Church. He  even confirmed what they taught , but refused to convert out of indifferentism!

Have you read what Harnack wrote about the Orthodox Church?

Edit: I just realised that I responded to a post from two years ago. Nothing to see here. Carry on.
What did he write?

Among other things: "The Orthodox Church is in her entire structure alien to the gospel and represents a perversion of the Christian religion, its reduction to the level of pagan antiquity."

No, he wasn't indifferent.

Yeah, St. Paul appointing Overseers and Elders over the Church and fasting Wednesdays and Fridays is completely alien to the 1st century Church. Clearly. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #257 on: October 24, 2013, 01:51:17 PM »

I think the worst thing is perhaps becoming like an 'Intellectual" like Adolf Von Harnack. He read the Fathers and the writings of the early Church. He  even confirmed what they taught , but refused to convert out of indifferentism!

Have you read what Harnack wrote about the Orthodox Church?

Edit: I just realised that I responded to a post from two years ago. Nothing to see here. Carry on.
What did he write?

Among other things: "The Orthodox Church is in her entire structure alien to the gospel and represents a perversion of the Christian religion, its reduction to the level of pagan antiquity."

No, he wasn't indifferent.

Yeah, St. Paul appointing Overseers and Elders over the Church and fasting Wednesdays and Fridays is completely alien to the 1st century Church. Clearly. Roll Eyes

I clearly don't agree with Harnack. And you can't argue with him, he's been dead for over a century.
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« Reply #258 on: October 24, 2013, 01:54:26 PM »

I think the worst thing is perhaps becoming like an 'Intellectual" like Adolf Von Harnack. He read the Fathers and the writings of the early Church. He  even confirmed what they taught , but refused to convert out of indifferentism!

Have you read what Harnack wrote about the Orthodox Church?

Edit: I just realised that I responded to a post from two years ago. Nothing to see here. Carry on.
What did he write?

Among other things: "The Orthodox Church is in her entire structure alien to the gospel and represents a perversion of the Christian religion, its reduction to the level of pagan antiquity."

No, he wasn't indifferent.

Yeah, St. Paul appointing Overseers and Elders over the Church and fasting Wednesdays and Fridays is completely alien to the 1st century Church. Clearly. Roll Eyes

I clearly don't agree with Harnack. And you can't argue with him, he's been dead for over a century.

I can still argue with him even if he's been dead.   Cheesy
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« Reply #259 on: January 10, 2014, 03:04:01 PM »

Well, I'm a real newbie and not Orthodox yet but still there is a huge difference.  The Divine Liturgy is something I can't wait to go to.  It is full and alive and real.  It is a total experience.  I'm beginning to study theology and what Orthodox believe and it is amazing.  It is so much better.  It is less of an abstraction or intellectual thing.  It is just more like what real life is than some theory.  I'm already more confident in God and less scrupulous.
Prayer is something I've never been very comfortable with but I am hoping that once I learn more about prayer within Orthodoxy I will gain a lot in this area. 
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