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Author Topic: Latin vs. Eastern/Oriental Theology  (Read 13782 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 12, 2008, 10:20:53 PM »

Yes, and based upon your comments at CAF, and your failure to distinguish between the Spirit's origin from the Father, and His manifestation from the Father through the Son, we do not share a common faith.
Am I to draw the conclusion then, that Byzantine Catholics and Latin Catholics do not share the same faith because Latins do not agree with your theology?
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2008, 10:20:56 PM »

Sorry if my post offends you, but your theology involves a confusion of the divine persons and the divine essence, and that is why I see it as basically Sabellian / Nestorian.  If my comments appear triumphalist to you, so be it. 
This is so unfair. You KNOW that Latins are not Sabellians. The filioque does not confuse the divine persons. The Son is distinguished from the Father in that he is begotten of that Father. That is enough. That is all that is needed.
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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2008, 02:07:04 AM »

This is so unfair. You KNOW that Latins are not Sabellians. The filioque does not confuse the divine persons. The Son is distinguished from the Father in that he is begotten of that Father. That is enough. That is all that is needed.

You haven't defined the Holy Spirit. THAT's where the semi-Sabellianism is.
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2008, 04:15:34 AM »

You haven't defined the Holy Spirit. THAT's where the semi-Sabellianism is.

Brother not really. The problem I have with the Catholic view of the trinity that it is to bound up in these philosophical ideas that sort of undermine the concept of the union through love but one thing you can be sure of is that they are not Sabellianists or Semi-Sabellianists.
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2008, 08:17:31 PM »

You haven't defined the Holy Spirit. THAT's where the semi-Sabellianism is.
The Father is distinguished in that he is the peron in the Trinity that has no source, who begets the Son and spirates the Spirit. The Son is the person in the Trinity who is begotten by the Father and, along with the Father as a single princple, spirates the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the person who does not beget nor spirate, but proceeds from both the Father and the son.
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 04:49:09 PM »

I found this on the Orthodox Antiochian Archdiocese web-site for the western-rite.  I infer from this that eastern/Orthodox Christians, not just Roman Catholics, may pray the rosary.  The site purportedly endorses both the "eastern" form of the rosary, and the "western" form commonly used by Catholics.  The "eastern" form is on the below link, and I've reprinted the western form off the web.  Might be a good supplement (but not replacement) to standard morning/evening prayers, and the jesus prayer commonly used by the orthodox.  I've found it so.  Also--prayer by the Orthodox, and Catholics, is the best way to work out our differences.  John Chrys.

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Link to Orthodox Antiochian Web-Site re: the rosary:

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=%22rosary%22+and+%22orthodoxy%22&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-802&u=www.westernorthodox.com/rosary&w=rosary+orthodoxy&d=WCBVlA-YSF2n&icp=1&.intl=us

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Here's the western form of the rosary (reprinted from the web):

How to Pray the Rosary
1.  While holding the crucifix, make the Sign of the Cross and      then recite  the Apostle's Creed.

2.  Recite the Our Father on the first large (or single) bead.

3.  On each of the three small beads, recite a Hail Mary for an      increase of faith, hope and charity.

4.  Recite the Glory Be to the Father after the third Hail Mary.

5.  Recall the first Rosary Mystery (see introductory prayers for each mystery below) and then recite the Our     Father on the next large bead.

6.  On each of the adjacent ten small beads (also referred to as a decade) recite a Hail        Mary while reflecting on the first mystery.

7.  After the tenth Hail Mary, recite a Glory Be to the Father and the Fatima Prayer.

8.  Each succeeding decade is prayed in a similar manner by recalling the appropriate mystery (see specific introductory prayers for each mystery below, reciting an Our Father, ten Hail Marys, the Glory Be to the Father, Fatima Prayer (optional) while reflecting on the mystery.

9.  When the fifth mystery is completed, the Rosary is customarily concluded with a Hail, Holy Queen, and then the closing prayer(s).

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Prayers of the Most Holy Rosary

Sign of the Cross -

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.  Amen.

The Apostle's Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.  He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty, from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.  I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.  Amen.

Our Father

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.  Amen.

Hail Mary

Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee.  Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.  Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.  Amen.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.  As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end.  Amen.

Fatima Prayer

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins.  Save us from the fires of Hell; lead all souls into Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.  Amen.

Closing Prayers

Hail, Holy Queen

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.  To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.  Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of Thy womb, Jesus.  O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.         

P.  Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.   R.  That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. 

Let us Pray:   O God, whose only begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life.  Grant, we beseech Thee that in meditating upon these mysteries of the most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ our Lord.  Amen.


Prayer to St. Michael

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil.  May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, cast into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.  Amen.

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Here's each mystery, including introductory statements for each mystery in the western form:

I.  M/Sa (Joyful):  Annunciation, Visitation, Nativity, Presentation, Finding in Temple   

Annunciation:  In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary. And coming to her, he said "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."… Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end..”  Jesus means in Hebrew: "God saves.” At the annunciation, the angel Gabriel gave him the name Jesus as his proper name, which expresses both his identity and his mission. Since God alone can forgive sins, it is God who, in Jesus his eternal Son made man, "will save his people from their sins.”  In Jesus, God recapitulates all of his history of salvation on behalf of men. 

Visitation:  During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."  “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." John was "filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb" by Christ himself, whom the Virgin Mary had just conceived by the Holy Spirit. Mary's visitation to Elizabeth thus became a visit from God to his people.

Nativity:  Now there were shepherds in that region living in the field and keeping the night watch over their flock. The angel of the Lord appeared to them and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were struck with great fear. The angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I proclaim to you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord. And this will be a sign for you: you will find an infant wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger." And suddenly there was a multitude of heavenly host with the angel, praising God and saying: "Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests."   No one, whether shepherd or wise man, can approach God here below except by kneeling before the manger at Bethlehem and adoring him hidden in the weakness of a new-born child. 

Presentation:  Now there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon.  It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit of the Lord. He came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to perform the custom of the law in regard to him, he took him into his arms and blessed God, saying : "Now Master, you may let your servant go in peace, according to your word, for my eyes have seen you salvation, which you prepared in sight of all the peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and glory for your people Israel."  With Simeon and Anna, all Israel awaits its encounter with the Savior - the name given to this event in the Byzantine tradition. Jesus is recognized as the long-expected Messiah, the 'light of the nations' and the "glory of Israel," but also "a sign that is spoken against." The sword of sorrow predicted for Mary announces Christ's perfect and unique oblation on the cross that will impart the salvation God had "prepared in the presence of all peoples." 

Finding in Temple:  As they were returning, the boy Jesus remained behind in Jerusalem, but his parents did not know it. … Not finding him, they returned to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions, and all who heard him were astounded at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished, and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety." And he said to them, "Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?" But they did not understand what he said to them.  The finding of Jesus in the Temple is the only event that breaks the silence of the Gospels about the hidden years of Jesus. Here Jesus lets us catch a glimpse of the mystery of his total consecration to a mission that flows from his divine sonship: "Did you not know that I must be about my Father's work?" Mary and Joseph did not understand these words, but they accepted them in faith. Mary "kept all these things in her heart" during the years Jesus remained hidden in the silence of an ordinary life. 

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Th (Luminous):  Baptism, Wedding at Cana, Proclamation of Kingdom, Transfiguration, Eucharist   

Baptism of Jesus:  Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. John tried to prevent him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?" Jesus said to him in reply, "Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed him. After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him. And a voice came from the heavens, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."  The baptism of Jesus is on his part the acceptance and inauguration of his mission as God's suffering Servant. He allows himself to be numbered among sinners; he is already "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world." Already he is anticipating the "baptism" of his bloody death. Already he is coming to "fulfill all righteousness," that is, he is submitting himself entirely to his Father's will: out of love he consents to this baptism of death for the remission of our sins. 

Wedding at Cana:  There was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding. When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." (And) Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you." Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons. Jesus told them, "Fill the jars with water." So they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." So they took it. And when the headwaiter tasted the water that had become wine, without knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the water knew), he called the bridegroom and said to him, "Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now." Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him.    The sign of water turned into wine at Cana already announces the Hour of Jesus' glorification. It makes manifest the fulfillment of the wedding feast in the Father's kingdom, where the faithful will drink the new wine that has become the Blood of Christ. 

Proclamation of the Kingdom:  Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news of him spread throughout the whole region. He taught in their synagogues and was praised by all. He came to Nazareth, where he had grown up, and went according to his custom into the synagogue on the Sabbath day. He stood up to read and was handed a scroll of the prophet Isaiah. He unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, and to proclaim a year acceptable to the Lord." Rolling up the scroll, he handed it back to the attendant and sat down, and the eyes of all in the synagogue looked intently at him. He said to them, "Today this scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing."  Jesus invites sinners to the table of the kingdom: "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." He invites them to that conversion without which one cannot enter the kingdom, but shows them in word and deed his Father's boundless mercy for them and the vast "joy in heaven over one sinner who repents." The supreme proof of his love will be the sacrifice of his own life "for the forgiveness of sins." 

Transfiguration:  Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him. Then Peter said to Jesus in reply, "Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud cast a shadow over them, then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him." When the disciples heard this, they fell prostrate and were very much afraid. But Jesus came and touched them, saying, "Rise, and do not be afraid." And when the disciples raised their eyes, they saw no one else but Jesus alone. As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, "Do not tell the vision to anyone until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead." The Transfiguration gives us a foretaste of Christ's glorious coming, when he "will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body." But it also recalls that "it is through many persecutions that we must enter the kingdom of God."   

Institution of the Eucharist:  While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take it; this is my body." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it. He said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed for many. Amen, I say to you, I shall not drink again the fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”   In order to leave them a pledge of this love, in order never to depart from his own and to make them sharers in his Passover, he instituted the Eucharist as the memorial of his death and Resurrection, and commanded his apostles to celebrate it until his return.

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T/Fri (Sorrowful):  Agony in Garden, Scourging at Pillar, Crowning w. Thorns, Carrying Cross, Crucifixion                                                                                                                                             
Agony in the Garden:  Then going out he went, as was his custom, to the Mount of Olives, and the disciples followed him. When he arrived at the place he said to them, "Pray that you may not undergo the test." After withdrawing about a stone's throw from them and kneeling, he prayed, saying, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, not my will but yours be done."… When he rose from prayer and returned to his disciples, he found them sleeping from grief. He said to them, "Why are you sleeping? Get up and pray that you may not undergo the test."  Jesus prays: "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me." Thus he expresses the horror that death represented for his human nature. Like ours, his human nature is destined for eternal life; but unlike ours, it is perfectly exempt from sin, the cause of death…. By accepting in his human will that the Father's will be done, he accepts his death as redemptive, for "he himself bore our sins in his body on the tree."

Scourging at the Pillar:  The chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas but to destroy Jesus… Pilate said to them, "Then what shall I do with Jesus called Messiah?" They all said, "Let him be crucified!" But he said, "Why? What evil has he done?" They only shouted the louder, "Let him be crucified!" When Pilate saw that he was not succeeding at all, but that a riot was breaking out instead, he took water and washed his hands in the sight of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood. Look to it yourselves." And the whole people said in reply, "His blood be upon us and upon our children." Then he released Barabbas to them, but after he had Jesus scourged, he handed him over to be crucified.  The Church remains faithful to the interpretation of "all the Scriptures" that Jesus gave both before and after his Passover: "Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" Jesus' sufferings took their historical, concrete form from the fact that he was "rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes," who handed "him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified." 

Crowning with Thorns:  And the soldiers wove a crown out of thorns and placed it on his head, and clothed him in a purple cloak, and they came to him and said, "Hail, King of the Jews!" And they struck him repeatedly. Once more Pilate went out and said to them, "Look, I am bringing him out to you, so that you may know that I find no guilt in him." So Jesus came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple cloak. And he said to them, "Behold, the Man!" When the chief priests and the guards saw him they cried out, "Crucify him, crucify him!   Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your king?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar." Then he handed him over to them to be crucified.  Man's sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death. By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 

Carrying of the Cross:  So they took Jesus, and carrying the cross himself he went out to what is called the Place of the Skull, in Hebrew, Golgotha.  A large crowd of people followed Jesus, including many women who mourned and lamented him. Jesus turned to them and said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep instead for yourselves and for your children, for indeed, the days are coming when people will say, 'Blessed are the barren, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed.' At that time people will say to the mountains, 'Fall upon us!' and to the hills, 'Cover us!' for if these things are done when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?"  Only by taking the "way of penance and renewal," the "narrow way of the Cross," can the People of God extend Christ's reign. For "just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and oppression, so the Church is called to follow the same path if she is to communicate the fruits of salvation to men."   

Crucifixion:  And about three o'clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" Some of the bystanders who heard it said, "This one is calling for Elijah." Immediately one of them ran to get a sponge; he soaked it in wine, and putting it on a reed, gave it to him to drink. But the rest said, "Wait, let us see if Elijah comes to save him." But Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit. And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.  The centurion and the men with him who were keeping watch over Jesus feared greatly when they saw the earthquake and all that was happening, and they said "Truly, this was the Son of God!"  By his loving obedience to the Father, "unto death, even death on a cross," Jesus fulfils the atoning mission of the suffering Servant, who will "make many righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities." 

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W/Su (Glorious):  Resurrection, Ascension, Holy Spirit, Assumption, Coronation       

Resurrection:  When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary, the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go and anoint him. Very early when the sun had risen, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb…. When they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back; it was very large. On entering the tomb they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a white robe, and they were utterly amazed. He said to them, "Do not be amazed! You seek Jesus of Nazareth, the crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Behold, the place where they laid him. But go and tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you.'"  The empty tomb and the linen cloths lying there signify in themselves that by God's power Christ's body had escaped the bonds of death and corruption. They prepared the disciples to encounter the Risen Lord. 

Ascension:  When they had gathered together they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" He answered them, "It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." When he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him from their sight. While they were looking intently at the sky as he was going, suddenly two men dressed in white garments stood beside them. They said, "Men of Galilee, why are you standing there looking at the sky? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will return in the same way as you have seen him go into heaven."   Christ's Ascension into heaven signifies his participation, in his humanity, in God's power and authority. Jesus Christ is Lord: he possesses all power in heaven and on earth. He is "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion," for the Father "has put all things under his feet."  In him human history and indeed all creation are "set forth" and transcendently fulfilled.   

Descent of the Holy Spirit:  When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together. And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.  'It will come to pass in the last days,' God says,  'that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh.'   On the day of Pentecost when the seven weeks of Easter had come to an end, Christ's Passover is fulfilled in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, manifested, given, and communicated as a divine person: of his fullness, Christ, the Lord, pours out the Spirit in abundance. 

Assumption:  "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.for he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me,  and holy is his name. His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him."  The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: "In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life.

Coronation:  "Then I heard something like the sound of a great multitude or the sound of rushing water or mighty peals of thunder, as they said:   "Alleluia!  The Lord has established his reign,  [our] God, the almighty.  Let us rejoice and be glad  and give him glory. For the wedding day of the Lamb has come,  his bride has made herself ready.  She was allowed to wear  a bright, clean linen garment"  Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin*, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death. 

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*With respect to the Orthodox position on original sin (see "Coronation" above), it's not heretical to believe in this doctrine, and some have argued the Orthodox believed it first, and only began to question it after the Pope declared it as dogma--without consulting the Orthodox--in 1854.  See attached link to the article by Daniel Joseph Barton. 

http://www.loupizzuti.com/bartonic.htm

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Finally, here's what I found re: claimed benefits, promises, etc. of those who recite the rosary daily.  Something to consider, especially since according to the Antiochian Archdiocese (western rite web-site) it does not appear to be prohibited to the Orthodox to pray the rosary.

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The Fifteen Promises of the Virgin Mary

to those who recite the Rosary

1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces.
2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary.

3. The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.

4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.

6. Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.

7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.

8. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.

9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.

10. The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.

11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary.

12. All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.

13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.

14. All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ.

15. Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.

----------------------------------------
 
Blessings of the Rosary

1. Sinners are forgiven.
2. Souls that thirst are refreshed.
3. Those who are fettered have their bonds broken.
4. Those who weep find happiness
5. Those who are tempted find peace.
6. The poor find help.
7. Religious are reformed.
8. Those who are ignorant are instructed.
9. The living learn to overcome pride.
10. The dead (the Holy Souls) have their pains eased by suffrages.

------------------------------------
 
Benefits of the Rosary

1. It gradually gives us a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. It purifies our souls, washing away sin.
3. It gives us victory over all our enemies.
4. It makes it easy for us to practice virtue.
5. It sets us on fire with love of Our Lord.
6. It enriches us with graces and merits.
7. It supplies us with what is needed to pay all our debts to God and to our fellow men; and finally, it obtains all kinds of graces for us from Almighty God.
 

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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 05:41:21 PM »

How true the rosary is a prayer for the whole church on both sides of the schism  Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 09:21:03 PM »

How true the rosary is a prayer for the whole church on both sides of the schism  Smiley
Are you an altar server in the Tridentine Mass?
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2009, 06:04:30 PM »

Sadly no. Novus Ordo I'm afraid to say.  Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2009, 06:27:13 PM »

You haven't defined the Holy Spirit. THAT's where the semi-Sabellianism is.
The Father is distinguished in that he is the peron in the Trinity that has no source, who begets the Son and spirates the Spirit. The Son is the person in the Trinity who is begotten by the Father and, along with the Father as a single princple, spirates the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the person who does not beget nor spirate, but proceeds from both the Father and the son.

From what i've read and as stated in the nicene creed, it states, And I believe in the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father. It does not mention the Son. While you state, that the Holy Spirit Spirates from both the Father and Son.


If this is so, how do you account for the Holy Spirit descending like a dove upon Jesus When he was Baptised by John? would not the Holy Spirit already be present with Jesus if he spirates From him as well?

Anyone more learned than I please correct My views from the orthodox perspective if i am wrong please
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2009, 12:09:28 AM »

You haven't defined the Holy Spirit. THAT's where the semi-Sabellianism is.
The Father is distinguished in that he is the peron in the Trinity that has no source, who begets the Son and spirates the Spirit. The Son is the person in the Trinity who is begotten by the Father and, along with the Father as a single princple, spirates the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the person who does not beget nor spirate, but proceeds from both the Father and the son.

From what i've read and as stated in the nicene creed, it states, And I believe in the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father. It does not mention the Son. While you state, that the Holy Spirit Spirates from both the Father and Son.


If this is so, how do you account for the Holy Spirit descending like a dove upon Jesus When he was Baptised by John? would not the Holy Spirit already be present with Jesus if he spirates From him as well?

Anyone more learned than I please correct My views from the orthodox perspective if i am wrong please
The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah.
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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2009, 12:10:10 AM »

How true the rosary is a prayer for the whole church on both sides of the schism  Smiley
Dear brother I think this sounds like branch theory, which the Roman Catholic Church rejects.

Changed 'the Church' to 'the Roman Catholic Church'.

-- Nebelpfade
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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2009, 11:43:23 AM »

You haven't defined the Holy Spirit. THAT's where the semi-Sabellianism is.
The Father is distinguished in that he is the peron in the Trinity that has no source, who begets the Son and spirates the Spirit. The Son is the person in the Trinity who is begotten by the Father and, along with the Father as a single princple, spirates the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the person who does not beget nor spirate, but proceeds from both the Father and the son.

From what i've read and as stated in the nicene creed, it states, And I believe in the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father. It does not mention the Son. While you state, that the Holy Spirit Spirates from both the Father and Son.


If this is so, how do you account for the Holy Spirit descending like a dove upon Jesus When he was Baptised by John? would not the Holy Spirit already be present with Jesus if he spirates From him as well?

Anyone more learned than I please correct My views from the orthodox perspective if i am wrong please
The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah.

Well... that really does not answer my question, as it's kind of vauge  Wink Are you saying the Holy spirit only spirates from the son after this happens? Or was the Holy Spirit already present with Jesus, and this was just the way in which the Father Chose to annoint him. I'm looking for the accepted RCC belief, in comparison to the orthodox perspective, where, from what i've read the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and works through the Son. again my knowledge is limited at this point. So This is simply for clarification on my part, not meant to create any major debate  Grin

George
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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2009, 03:48:04 PM »

How true the rosary is a prayer for the whole church on both sides of the schism  Smiley
Dear brother I think this sounds like branch theory, which the Church rejects.

Not if you read the documents of Vatican II Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2009, 07:40:08 PM »

You haven't defined the Holy Spirit. THAT's where the semi-Sabellianism is.
The Father is distinguished in that he is the peron in the Trinity that has no source, who begets the Son and spirates the Spirit. The Son is the person in the Trinity who is begotten by the Father and, along with the Father as a single princple, spirates the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the person who does not beget nor spirate, but proceeds from both the Father and the son.

From what i've read and as stated in the nicene creed, it states, And I believe in the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father. It does not mention the Son. While you state, that the Holy Spirit Spirates from both the Father and Son.


If this is so, how do you account for the Holy Spirit descending like a dove upon Jesus When he was Baptised by John? would not the Holy Spirit already be present with Jesus if he spirates From him as well?

Anyone more learned than I please correct My views from the orthodox perspective if i am wrong please
The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah.

Well... that really does not answer my question, as it's kind of vauge  Wink Are you saying the Holy spirit only spirates from the son after this happens? Or was the Holy Spirit already present with Jesus, and this was just the way in which the Father Chose to annoint him. I'm looking for the accepted RCC belief, in comparison to the orthodox perspective, where, from what i've read the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and works through the Son. again my knowledge is limited at this point. So This is simply for clarification on my part, not meant to create any major debate  Grin

George
The Holy Spirit was present in him as God the Son through whom the Holy Spirit proceeds. However, that does not mean that the Holy Spirit had descended on him for the purpose of anointing him as messiah. I really think that the arguement that you provide here is really week. There are much better arguements against the filioque than this.
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« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2009, 07:42:02 PM »

How true the rosary is a prayer for the whole church on both sides of the schism  Smiley
Dear brother I think this sounds like branch theory, which the Church rejects.

Not if you read the documents of Vatican II Smiley
I have read the documents of Vatican II numerous times and not once do they teach that the Eastern Orthodox Church is part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. You are reading the documents with the filter of the "Spirit of Vatican II" nonsense rather than in light of the traditions of Holy Mother Church. Please do not misrepresent the faith on non-Catholic forums.
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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2009, 08:04:43 PM »

Quote
The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah.


Quote
The Holy Spirit was present in him as God the Son through whom the Holy Spirit proceeds. However, that does not mean that the Holy Spirit had descended on him for the purpose of anointing him as messiah. I really think that the arguement that you provide here is really week. There are much better arguements against the filioque than this.

I'm sorry you feel the need to belittle my wish for clarification, rather than provide a clear explanation of your points. I would also point out that you have contradicted your earlier statement.

Peace be with you

George
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« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2009, 08:12:20 PM »

Quote
The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah.


Quote
The Holy Spirit was present in him as God the Son through whom the Holy Spirit proceeds. However, that does not mean that the Holy Spirit had descended on him for the purpose of anointing him as messiah. I really think that the arguement that you provide here is really week. There are much better arguements against the filioque than this.

I'm sorry you feel the need to belittle my wish for clarification, rather than provide a clear explanation of your points. I would also point out that you have contradicted your earlier statement.

Peace be with you

George
No I have not but I think you probably are not all that familiar with theological concpets in general so you have trouble understanding them.
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« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2009, 08:25:41 PM »

Quote
The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah.


Quote
The Holy Spirit was present in him as God the Son through whom the Holy Spirit proceeds. However, that does not mean that the Holy Spirit had descended on him for the purpose of anointing him as messiah. I really think that the arguement that you provide here is really week. There are much better arguements against the filioque than this.

I'm sorry you feel the need to belittle my wish for clarification, rather than provide a clear explanation of your points. I would also point out that you have contradicted your earlier statement.

Peace be with you

George
No I have not but I think you probably are not all that familiar with theological concpets in general so you have trouble understanding them.
Well... as expected, no elaboration,  just simple dismisal. Nevermind, i'll look into it later. As i stated before i have no wish for a debate just simply a clarification of your position. Maybe a clear and concise answer that a lowly laymen as myself can grasp  Wink

Peace be with you

George
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« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2009, 12:31:08 AM »

Quote
The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah.


Quote
The Holy Spirit was present in him as God the Son through whom the Holy Spirit proceeds. However, that does not mean that the Holy Spirit had descended on him for the purpose of anointing him as messiah. I really think that the arguement that you provide here is really week. There are much better arguements against the filioque than this.

I'm sorry you feel the need to belittle my wish for clarification, rather than provide a clear explanation of your points. I would also point out that you have contradicted your earlier statement.

Peace be with you

George
No I have not but I think you probably are not all that familiar with theological concpets in general so you have trouble understanding them.
Well... as expected, no elaboration,  just simple dismisal. Nevermind, i'll look into it later. As i stated before i have no wish for a debate just simply a clarification of your position. Maybe a clear and concise answer that a lowly laymen as myself can grasp  Wink

Peace be with you

George
Sorry for my snarky comment. I was not in a good mood at all. That is no excuse but just as we should not drive under the influence, I should never be aloud to post when I am emotional. LOL
Please forgive me brother.
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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2009, 12:37:42 AM »




Sorry for my snarky comment. I was not in a good mood at all. That is no excuse but just as we should not drive under the influence, I should never be aloud to post when I am emotional. LOL
Please forgive me brother.
Would you like some hot cocoa to make you feel better, my brother? Tongue
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« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2009, 12:41:44 AM »

Would some hot cocoa make you feel better, my brother? Tongue

I think he needs a cookie.  Grin
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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2009, 12:50:47 AM »

All of the above.
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« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2009, 06:25:47 PM »

Quote
Sorry for my snarky comment. I was not in a good mood at all. That is no excuse but just as we should not drive under the influence, I should never be aloud to post when I am emotional. LOL
Please forgive me brother.

No worries, we've all been there. Just gave me an excuse to look it up on my own  Grin

Peace be with you

George
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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2009, 10:23:02 PM »

How true the rosary is a prayer for the whole church on both sides of the schism  Smiley
Dear brother I think this sounds like branch theory, which the Church rejects.

Not if you read the documents of Vatican II Smiley
I have read the documents of Vatican II numerous times and not once do they teach that the Eastern Orthodox Church is part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. You are reading the documents with the filter of the "Spirit of Vatican II" nonsense rather than in light of the traditions of Holy Mother Church. Please do not misrepresent the faith on non-Catholic forums.

Glory to Jesus Christ


My dear Brother

I am sorry if you thought I was mis-representing our Holy and Catholic Faith but this is just my limited and somewhat ignorant knowledge of the documents of Vatican II
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« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2009, 06:17:46 PM »

"If this is so, how do you account for the Holy Spirit descending like a dove upon Jesus When he was Baptised by John? would not the Holy Spirit already be present with Jesus if he spirates From him as well?"

Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit was not present with Jesus before His Baptism?
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« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2009, 06:19:27 PM »

"The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah."

Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit was not present in the humanity of Christ before His Baptism?
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« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2009, 06:26:40 PM »

"I would also point out that you have contradicted your earlier statement."

It really wasn't a contradiction. He was saying that at Christ's Baptism, the Holy Spirit descended upon Christ to anoint Him as the Messiah. Then he said that in the eternal spiration of the Holy Spirit from the Son, He has not already descended upon Him to anoint Him as the Messiah. He is simply saying that before X happened, X had not already happened.
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« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2009, 01:03:44 AM »

How true the rosary is a prayer for the whole church on both sides of the schism  Smiley
Dear brother I think this sounds like branch theory, which the Church rejects.

Not if you read the documents of Vatican II Smiley
I have read the documents of Vatican II numerous times and not once do they teach that the Eastern Orthodox Church is part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. You are reading the documents with the filter of the "Spirit of Vatican II" nonsense rather than in light of the traditions of Holy Mother Church. Please do not misrepresent the faith on non-Catholic forums.
or Catholic forums for that matter.
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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2010, 12:43:30 AM »

The question that arises to my mind is the power of the Papacy to over-rule the First Ecumenical Council and the work of that Council, [The Nicean Creed.  This was the argument in 1054 when the Church in Rome Excommunicated the entire Eastern Church and it still remains a part of the question.  Prior to this the Church was not governed by a monarch and a dictator, but after the question the monarchy in Rome tried to extend its dictatorship to the rest of Christianity; in effect becoming the first Protestant Church.  Rome broke Communion with the Eastern Churches

We then come to the "Filioque" itself.  If the Holy Spirit descends from the "Father and The Son" the Holy Spirit becomes less of an equal with the Father and The Son.  If all of the Persons of the Holy Trinity are of the same essence, but each has different functions; the Original Nicean Creed minus the "Filioque" is correct and the Roman Catholic Church does indeed teach error.

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« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2010, 12:06:32 PM »

The question that arises to my mind is the power of the Papacy to over-rule the First Ecumenical Council and the work of that Council, [The Nicean Creed.  This was the argument in 1054 when the Church in Rome Excommunicated the entire Eastern Church and it still remains a part of the question.  Prior to this the Church was not governed by a monarch and a dictator, but after the question the monarchy in Rome tried to extend its dictatorship to the rest of Christianity; in effect becoming the first Protestant Church.  Rome broke Communion with the Eastern Churches

We then come to the "Filioque" itself.  If the Holy Spirit descends from the "Father and The Son" the Holy Spirit becomes less of an equal with the Father and The Son.  If all of the Persons of the Holy Trinity are of the same essence, but each has different functions; the Original Nicean Creed minus the "Filioque" is correct and the Roman Catholic Church does indeed teach error.

John Lee

By your argument, a person can clude that God the Son is less than the Father, because he does not spirate. But we all know that that is wrong.
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« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2010, 12:30:36 AM »

The question that arises to my mind is the power of the Papacy to over-rule the First Ecumenical Council and the work of that Council, The Nicean Creed.

The creed of the First Council of Nicaea said nothing about the procession of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2010, 12:50:40 AM »

If the Holy Spirit descends from the "Father and The Son" the Holy Spirit becomes less of an equal with the Father and The Son.

Descends? Do you even understand the real issue concerning the filioque? "Descends" to me indicates the missioning of the Holy Spirit; it is not a term that I have ever used to refer to the eternal relationship between the Father and the Holy Spirit. As to the temporal missioning of the Holy Spirit, your reasoning is actually flawed and in contrast to orthodoxy. Both the Father and the Son participate in the missioning of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2010, 10:26:06 AM »

If the Holy Spirit descends from the "Father and The Son" the Holy Spirit becomes less of an equal with the Father and The Son.

Descends? Do you even understand the real issue concerning the filioque? "Descends" to me indicates the missioning of the Holy Spirit; it is not a term that I have ever used to refer to the eternal relationship between the Father and the Holy Spirit. As to the temporal missioning of the Holy Spirit, your reasoning is actually flawed and in contrast to orthodoxy. Both the Father and the Son participate in the missioning of the Holy Spirit.

I am well aware of this. I have been around this forum for years and have listened to the whole "theological vs. economical" Trinity argument. Quite frankly, its sounds like di-theism. Do you even understand the issue here?
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« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2011, 04:20:09 PM »

What's 'Latin' theology? What's 'Eastern' theology? Are we talking about explicit points of disagreement or just general trends?
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« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2011, 04:38:11 PM »

What's 'Latin' theology? What's 'Eastern' theology? Are we talking about explicit points of disagreement or just general trends?

Latin theology is the western theological tradition, traditionally based on the western fathers writing in the latin language. Eastern theology is the eastern theological tradition, traditionally based in the eastern fathers writing in the greek language. Due to cultural/language differences, the two traditions have formed distinct ways of expressing their theology.
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« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2011, 08:33:38 PM »

What's 'Latin' theology? What's 'Eastern' theology? Are we talking about explicit points of disagreement or just general trends?

Latin theology is the western theological tradition, traditionally based on the western fathers writing in the latin language. Eastern theology is the eastern theological tradition, traditionally based in the eastern fathers writing in the greek language. Due to cultural/language differences, the two traditions have formed distinct ways of expressing their theology.

Then you deny to the Latin Church the patrimony of the Holy Fathers. 
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« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2011, 08:55:52 PM »

What's 'Latin' theology? What's 'Eastern' theology? Are we talking about explicit points of disagreement or just general trends?

Latin theology is the western theological tradition, traditionally based on the western fathers writing in the latin language. Eastern theology is the eastern theological tradition, traditionally based in the eastern fathers writing in the greek language. Due to cultural/language differences, the two traditions have formed distinct ways of expressing their theology.

Then you deny to the Latin Church the patrimony of the Holy Fathers. 

I did not say "Roman Catholic" or "Eastern Orthodox", I was simply outlining the distinctions between latin and greek patristic traditions. I would not deny you St John Chrysostom anymore than I would deny my own Church Ss Ambrose, Augustine, Gregory the Great (whose presanctified liturgy we celebrate), etc.
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« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2011, 08:56:46 PM »

If the Holy Spirit descends from the "Father and The Son" the Holy Spirit becomes less of an equal with the Father and The Son.

Descends? Do you even understand the real issue concerning the filioque? "Descends" to me indicates the missioning of the Holy Spirit; it is not a term that I have ever used to refer to the eternal relationship between the Father and the Holy Spirit. As to the temporal missioning of the Holy Spirit, your reasoning is actually flawed and in contrast to orthodoxy. Both the Father and the Son participate in the missioning of the Holy Spirit.

I am well aware of this. I have been around this forum for years and have listened to the whole "theological vs. economical" Trinity argument. Quite frankly, its sounds like di-theism. Do you even understand the issue here?

The eternal procession and the sending of the Spirit are clearly distinguished in Patristic theology and in the Bible.
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« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2011, 09:13:20 PM »

If the Holy Spirit descends from the "Father and The Son" the Holy Spirit becomes less of an equal with the Father and The Son.

Descends? Do you even understand the real issue concerning the filioque? "Descends" to me indicates the missioning of the Holy Spirit; it is not a term that I have ever used to refer to the eternal relationship between the Father and the Holy Spirit. As to the temporal missioning of the Holy Spirit, your reasoning is actually flawed and in contrast to orthodoxy. Both the Father and the Son participate in the missioning of the Holy Spirit.

I am well aware of this. I have been around this forum for years and have listened to the whole "theological vs. economical" Trinity argument. Quite frankly, its sounds like di-theism. Do you even understand the issue here?

The eternal procession and the sending of the Spirit are clearly distinguished in Patristic theology and in the Bible.
And if the economical is not some reflection of the theological, then it seems you are creating two gods.
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« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2011, 09:25:23 PM »

What's 'Latin' theology? What's 'Eastern' theology? Are we talking about explicit points of disagreement or just general trends?

Latin theology is the western theological tradition, traditionally based on the western fathers writing in the latin language. Eastern theology is the eastern theological tradition, traditionally based in the eastern fathers writing in the greek language. Due to cultural/language differences, the two traditions have formed distinct ways of expressing their theology.

Then you deny to the Latin Church the patrimony of the Holy Fathers. 

I did not say "Roman Catholic" or "Eastern Orthodox", I was simply outlining the distinctions between latin and greek patristic traditions. I would not deny you St John Chrysostom anymore than I would deny my own Church Ss Ambrose, Augustine, Gregory the Great (whose presanctified liturgy we celebrate), etc.

It didn't sound like you...so that's why I chimed in to check.
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« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2011, 10:44:58 AM »

Quote
Latin theology is the western theological tradition, traditionally based on the western fathers writing in the latin language. Eastern theology is the eastern theological tradition, traditionally based in the eastern fathers writing in the greek language. Due to cultural/language differences, the two traditions have formed distinct ways of expressing their theology.

If that's the case then I'm not sure how much I would agree that the distinction is valid, or at least is still valid. There seems to be a lot of cross-pollination to me.
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« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2011, 02:10:41 PM »

Quote
Latin theology is the western theological tradition, traditionally based on the western fathers writing in the latin language. Eastern theology is the eastern theological tradition, traditionally based in the eastern fathers writing in the greek language. Due to cultural/language differences, the two traditions have formed distinct ways of expressing their theology.

If that's the case then I'm not sure how much I would agree that the distinction is valid, or at least is still valid. There seems to be a lot of cross-pollination to me.

Since the schism, "latin" has also come to include the Roman Catholic continuation of latin theology developed while apart from Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2011, 02:33:01 PM »

Quote
Latin theology is the western theological tradition, traditionally based on the western fathers writing in the latin language. Eastern theology is the eastern theological tradition, traditionally based in the eastern fathers writing in the greek language. Due to cultural/language differences, the two traditions have formed distinct ways of expressing their theology.

If that's the case then I'm not sure how much I would agree that the distinction is valid, or at least is still valid. There seems to be a lot of cross-pollination to me.

Since the schism, "latin" has also come to include the Roman Catholic continuation of latin theology developed while apart from Orthodoxy.

None of that developed without reference to the Holy Fathers.
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« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2011, 02:51:49 PM »

Quote
Latin theology is the western theological tradition, traditionally based on the western fathers writing in the latin language. Eastern theology is the eastern theological tradition, traditionally based in the eastern fathers writing in the greek language. Due to cultural/language differences, the two traditions have formed distinct ways of expressing their theology.

If that's the case then I'm not sure how much I would agree that the distinction is valid, or at least is still valid. There seems to be a lot of cross-pollination to me.

Since the schism, "latin" has also come to include the Roman Catholic continuation of latin theology developed while apart from Orthodoxy.

Yea, I know what you mean as far as that goes. What I'm not sure I agree about is the idea that there are these two monolithic edifices, one of which is 'Latin Theology' and one of which is 'Eastern Theology', and that we can discuss the history of theology accurately in that way.
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« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2011, 01:32:02 PM »

Quote
Latin theology is the western theological tradition, traditionally based on the western fathers writing in the latin language. Eastern theology is the eastern theological tradition, traditionally based in the eastern fathers writing in the greek language. Due to cultural/language differences, the two traditions have formed distinct ways of expressing their theology.

If that's the case then I'm not sure how much I would agree that the distinction is valid, or at least is still valid. There seems to be a lot of cross-pollination to me.

Since the schism, "latin" has also come to include the Roman Catholic continuation of latin theology developed while apart from Orthodoxy.

Yea, I know what you mean as far as that goes. What I'm not sure I agree about is the idea that there are these two monolithic edifices, one of which is 'Latin Theology' and one of which is 'Eastern Theology', and that we can discuss the history of theology accurately in that way.

Let's use the filioque as an example. The latin procedit does not equal the greek ekporeusis. The entire controversy surrounding it hinges on the false understanding that they do. The theology expressed in latin writings is fine, it does not belong in the creed.
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« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2011, 11:44:41 AM »

That's a point of explicit doctrinal disagreement, which I was asking about earlier.
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« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2011, 05:33:22 PM »

...how do you account for the Holy Spirit descending like a dove upon Jesus When he was Baptised by John? would not the Holy Spirit already be present with Jesus if he spirates From him as well?

Anyone more learned than I please correct My views from the orthodox perspective if i am wrong please

Part of the question, about the holy Spirit descending upon the man Jesus, here appears very similiar to that of the Theodotian sect, from around the year 190A.D. condemned by Pope Saint Victor the Martyr.

Forgive me for noticing it. As it happens, I am currently wrapped-up writing about some of the early sects.

Maybe we should discuss the mistakes of some of the early theologians we all can agree are in the wrong; so that, we can all remind ourselves what is certaintly wrong rather than vague.
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« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2012, 07:48:23 AM »

Quote
Latin theology is the western theological tradition, traditionally based on the western fathers writing in the latin language. Eastern theology is the eastern theological tradition, traditionally based in the eastern fathers writing in the greek language. Due to cultural/language differences, the two traditions have formed distinct ways of expressing their theology.

If that's the case then I'm not sure how much I would agree that the distinction is valid, or at least is still valid. There seems to be a lot of cross-pollination to me.

Since the schism, "latin" has also come to include the Roman Catholic continuation of latin theology developed while apart from Orthodoxy.

Yea, I know what you mean as far as that goes. What I'm not sure I agree about is the idea that there are these two monolithic edifices, one of which is 'Latin Theology' and one of which is 'Eastern Theology', and that we can discuss the history of theology accurately in that way.

Let's use the filioque as an example. The latin procedit does not equal the greek ekporeusis. The entire controversy surrounding it hinges on the false understanding that they do. The theology expressed in latin writings is fine, it does not belong in the creed.

That's a point of explicit doctrinal disagreement, which I was asking about earlier.

No it isn't.
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« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2012, 07:52:19 AM »

We then come to the "Filioque" itself.  If the Holy Spirit descends from the "Father and The Son" the Holy Spirit becomes less of an equal with the Father and The Son.  If all of the Persons of the Holy Trinity are of the same essence, but each has different functions; the Original Nicean Creed minus the "Filioque" is correct and the Roman Catholic Church does indeed teach error.

John Lee

To me, this argument has always seems just as illogical as the reverse argument, namely that the Filioque is necessary in order to avoid Arianism. (I also don't know why you said "descends" rather than "proceeds", but I'll leave that aside.)
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« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2012, 07:56:13 AM »

What's 'Latin' theology? What's 'Eastern' theology?

Good question. There seems to be an increasing trend to speak of Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, on the one hand, and Latin Catholics on the other hand. I'm not sure what to make of this.  Lips Sealed

P.S. I guess another way you could put it is that people are tending to see Eastern Catholicism not so much as the eastern-wing-of-Catholicism, but rather as the Catholic wing of the-Christian-East.
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« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2012, 08:13:23 AM »

What's 'Latin' theology? What's 'Eastern' theology?

Good question. There seems to be an increasing trend to speak of Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, on the one hand, and Latin Catholics on the other hand. I'm not sure what to make of this.  Lips Sealed

Possibly the difference is with Augustinian viewpoints on original sin and how this changes some viewpoints of God's relationship with mankind.  (I'm wondering if  the practice of self-flagellation of the middle ages came about because of this Augustinian viewpoint and how this relates to any Eastern Christian practices of self-denial, etc.)  Another difference is the Latin focus on certain very famous Roman Catholic saints and their visions and practices without a balance of early pre-schism saints.   

To give due credit to the Roman Catholic side, there seems to be a large focus of the religious orders on active service (hospitals, teachers,  etc.).  There are contemplative orders, but many orders  go out to nurse and care for the very poor and very ill.
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« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2012, 06:57:05 PM »

Man, I really wish that I could delete some of my rudeness from these old threads.
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« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2012, 01:28:57 PM »

Lol, Papist! Well, I wish I could delete some of my antiChristian rants from the Internet from when I was an atheist but they're there forever.  Just another reminder to think before you post. :-)
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« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2012, 10:01:39 AM »

Nice to see you here, theistgal.

when I was an atheist

You used to be an atheist? I don't I ever knew that (although I guess I should have suspected it from your screenname Cheesy).
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« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2012, 11:06:33 AM »

Nice to see you here, theistgal.

when I was an atheist

You used to be an atheist? I don't I ever knew that (although I guess I should have suspected it from your screenname Cheesy).

Yep, I was the infamous "atheistgal" of yore.  Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2012, 11:10:09 AM »

Nice to see you here, theistgal.

when I was an atheist

You used to be an atheist? I don't I ever knew that (although I guess I should have suspected it from your screenname Cheesy).

Yep, I was the infamous "atheistgal" of yore.  Smiley

What made you convert if I may ask?
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« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2012, 01:09:11 PM »

Nice to see you here, theistgal.

when I was an atheist

You used to be an atheist? I don't I ever knew that (although I guess I should have suspected it from your screenname Cheesy).

Yep, I was the infamous "atheistgal" of yore.  Smiley

What made you convert if I may ask?

The grace of God, and His long-suffering patience, not to mention His wonderful sense of humor, is about all I can come up with.

I have actually gone back and forth between atheism and theism since my college days and it's not over; it's never really over till death.

But in recent I've learned to see my latent theism as a chronic illness, and treat it as such. When it starts cropping up in my life, rather than try to suppress it and thus let it fester, I just say to God, "Hey Lord, I think I'm going to have to be an atheist for a while again," and He replies, "OK kiddo, let me know when you're ready to come back."

And I always come back, because ultimately atheism = NOTHINGNESS and the closer I get to the end of my life, the more difficult that is to accept.
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« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2012, 01:16:22 PM »

Great to meet someone who came from atheism as well.
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« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2012, 01:21:58 PM »

Great to meet someone who came from atheism as well.

I thought you looked familiar!  Cheesy  Grin
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« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2012, 01:22:59 PM »

Great to meet someone who came from atheism as well.

I thought you looked familiar!  Cheesy  Grin

Aye, we former atheists all look alike  Wink
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« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2012, 01:31:18 PM »

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« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2012, 12:00:08 PM »

Cyrillic and theistgal,

Do you mean atheism literally (as distinct from agnosticism)?
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« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2012, 12:09:24 PM »

Cyrillic and theistgal,

Do you mean atheism literally (as distinct from agnosticism)?

In the sense that I knew for sure that there was no afterlife and that the universe and the world came into being by accident/any other way that could be fully rationally explained, the miracles in the Bible didn't happen and that the existence of God is very unlikely. Then again, I was never catechised.

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« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2012, 05:10:05 PM »

Just checking. Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2012, 05:14:06 PM »

Side question: did you see the thread on this forum, in which someone claimed that agnosticism doesn't even exist?
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« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2012, 05:19:14 PM »

Side question: did you see the thread on this forum, in which someone claimed that agnosticism doesn't even exist?

Real agnosticism doesn't exist IMO. Most agnostics are just hipster atheists.
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« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2012, 01:49:37 PM »

Side question: did you see the thread on this forum, in which someone claimed that agnosticism doesn't even exist?

Real agnosticism doesn't exist IMO. Most agnostics are just hipster atheists.

Maybe, but agnosticism is a venerable term, which to me conjures up images of people like Mark Twain or Robert Ingersoll. I'd much rather be perceived as an "agnostic" than one of those mean, nasty "atheists". (Er, that's a joke, atheists! I don't think you're really mean and nasty! Don't tase me bro!  Grin ).
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« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2012, 09:34:16 AM »

Side question: did you see the thread on this forum, in which someone claimed that agnosticism doesn't even exist?

Real agnosticism doesn't exist IMO. Most agnostics are just hipster atheists.

Hmm ... well, I guess that's not as extreme as the other poster who was saying that agnosticism is absolutely impossible.
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« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2012, 10:06:09 AM »


[/quote]
The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah.
[/quote]


St Cyrils 12 Anathemas, Anathema #3

"If anyone shall after the [hypostatic] union divide the hypostases in the one Christ, joining them by that connexion alone, which happens according to worthiness, or even authority and power, and not rather by a coming together, which is made by natural union: let him be anathema.


Also Keep in mind the Apostles received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost through Christ.

John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2
Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
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« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2012, 10:51:12 AM »


Quote
The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah.


St Cyrils 12 Anathemas, Anathema #3

"If anyone shall after the [hypostatic] union divide the hypostases in the one Christ, joining them by that connexion alone, which happens according to worthiness, or even authority and power, and not rather by a coming together, which is made by natural union: let him be anathema.


Also Keep in mind the Apostles received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost through Christ.

John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2
Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Pope St. Cyril speaks of the Holy Spirit descending on Christ to anoint Him as Messiah in his "On the Unity of Christ" in several places.

Btw, the OP might find something for its case on the Miaphysite Christology blogspot:
http://miaphysitism.blogspot.com/2012/11/severus-ibn-al-muqaffa-i-on.html
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« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2013, 03:58:28 PM »

m is.
[/quote]
The Father is distinguished in that he is the peron in the Trinity that has no source, who begets the Son and spirates the Spirit. The Son is the person in the Trinity who is begotten by the Father and, along with the Father as a single princple, spirates the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the person who does not beget nor spirate, but proceeds from both the Father and the son.
[/quote]

From what i've read and as stated in the nicene creed, it states, And I believe in the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father. It does not mention the Son. While you state, that the Holy Spirit Spirates from both the Father and Son.


If this is so, how do you account for the Holy Spirit descending like a dove upon Jesus When he was Baptised by John? would not the Holy Spirit already be present with Jesus if he spirates From him as well?

Anyone more learned than I please correct My views from the orthodox perspective if i am wrong please
[/quote]
The Holy Spirit was descending on Christ as man to anoint him as messiah.
[/quote]

Do you realize how Nestorian that sounds. The human and divine nature of Christ were "without separation."
The correct Biblical teaching is that the Holy Spirit proceeds, that is originates from the Father and is sent by the Son. St. John 15:26. Some of the Fathers express this as "through the Son." The original Greek text of the creed uses the word, "ἐκπορευόμενον" which means to proceed from one source. Even Rome recognizes this and never adds the words "and the Son" when the Creed is recited in Greek. St. John 15:26 also uses the word "ἐκπορευόμενον". However, the Latin word translated proceeds "procedit" which can mean to proceed through a mediator. Thus it can be used to mean that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, which is what the Latins argued at Florence.
However, the text as approved by the Ecumenical Councils was the Greek text. Therefore any translation into Latin should be an accurate translation of the original Greek text with its original meaning. Even the Popes refused to add the filioque to the Creed until 1014 and then under pressure from the Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire, who used the "filioque" to accuse the Eastern Empire of heresy to strengthen their claim to be the legitimate heirs of the Roman Empire instead of the Emperor in Constantinople. No one, not even the Bishop of Rome has the authority to change a decision of an Ecumenical Council.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2013, 03:20:53 PM »

You haven't defined the Holy Spirit. THAT's where the semi-Sabellianism is.
The Father is distinguished in that he is the peron in the Trinity that has no source, who begets the Son and spirates the Spirit. The Son is the person in the Trinity who is begotten by the Father and, along with the Father as a single princple, spirates the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the person who does not beget nor spirate, but proceeds from both the Father and the son.

There is only one verse in the entire Bible that refers to the procession of the Holy Spirit. John 15:26. "But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me;" Nothing could be more specific than that. The teaching of the Holy Scriptures is that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son. One can also state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, but one cannot say that the Holy Spirit proceeds, that is originates, from the Father and the Son and be faithful to the original meaning of the Creed as written and approved by the 7 Ecumenical Councils. The original Greek text of the Creed is very specific. The word translated proceeds, "ἐκπορευόμενον" means to proceed as from one source. However, the Latin word translated proceed, "procedit" can mean proceeds through a mediator.  Thus the Latin text of the Creed with the filioque is not necessarily heretical. However, even Rome recognizes that one cannot add the words, "and the Son" to the original Greek text of the Creed. Since the original text of the Creed was the Greek version any translation of the Creed should convey the meaning of the original Greek text.
The addition of the filioque clause was political. After the founding of the Holy Roman Empire with the unauthorized crowning of Charlemagne by Pope Leo III on Christmas day in 800, Charlemagne and his successors claimed to be the rightful Roman Emperors. They used the "filioque" as a means to charge the Emperors in Constantinople with heresy because the Byzantine rulers rightfully objected to this unauthorized addition to the Creed. At first even the Popes rejected this addition arguing that the Pope lacked the authority to change the Creed written and approved by the Ecumenical Councils. In 810 Pope Leo III went so far as to have two large silver plates engraved with the Creed in Latin and Greek without the "filioque" and hung in St. Peter's to emphasize the point that no one had the authority to change the Creed written and approved by the Ecumenical Councils. However, in 1014, the "filioque" was first used in Rome at the coronation of Henry II as Emperor by Pope Benedict VIII. Benedict's assumption of the papal office had been challenged by another claimant, Antipope Gregory VI. Henry intervened on behalf of Benedict, so because he owed his papacy to the German monarch, he gave into his request to include the "filioque" in the Creed in Rome.
Ironically in 1054, Cardinal Humbert who began the Western schism when he excommunicated Patriarch Michael I of Constantinople accused the Patriarch of taking the "filioque" out of the Creed.

Fr. John W. Morris

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« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2013, 03:24:46 PM »

Ironically in 1054, Cardinal Humbert who began the Western schism when he excommunicated Patriarch Michael I of Constantinople accused the Patriarch of taking the "filioque" out of the Creed.

Fr. John W. Morris

That's actually rather humorous and sad that a cardinal didn't know church history well enough to know the truth
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« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2013, 03:38:48 PM »

Ironically in 1054, Cardinal Humbert who began the Western schism when he excommunicated Patriarch Michael I of Constantinople accused the Patriarch of taking the "filioque" out of the Creed.

Fr. John W. Morris

That's actually rather humorous and sad that a cardinal didn't know church history well enough to know the truth

It wasn't just him - all the West thought the same from the Carolingians until about Thomas of Aquino and probably the Council of Florence. Bernard of Clairvaux also believed the Greeks had taken filioque out of the Creed. It was a matter of Latin tradition...
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« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2013, 08:32:52 PM »

Ironically in 1054, Cardinal Humbert who began the Western schism when he excommunicated Patriarch Michael I of Constantinople accused the Patriarch of taking the "filioque" out of the Creed.

Fr. John W. Morris

That's actually rather humorous and sad that a cardinal didn't know church history well enough to know the truth

It wasn't just him - all the West thought the same from the Carolingians until about Thomas of Aquino and probably the Council of Florence. Bernard of Clairvaux also believed the Greeks had taken filioque out of the Creed. It was a matter of Latin tradition...

The West still does not know Church history. The Roman Catholics steadfastly cling to their papalism although there is no way to reconcile the canons and proceedings of the 7 Ecumenical Councils with the 1st Vatican Council and the modern claims of Rome to infallibility or universal jurisdiction.

Fr. John W.  Morris
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« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2013, 08:47:01 PM »

Ironically in 1054, Cardinal Humbert who began the Western schism when he excommunicated Patriarch Michael I of Constantinople accused the Patriarch of taking the "filioque" out of the Creed.

Fr. John W. Morris

That's actually rather humorous and sad that a cardinal didn't know church history well enough to know the truth

It wasn't just him - all the West thought the same from the Carolingians until about Thomas of Aquino and probably the Council of Florence. Bernard of Clairvaux also believed the Greeks had taken filioque out of the Creed. It was a matter of Latin tradition...

The West still does not know Church history. The Roman Catholics steadfastly cling to their papalism although there is no way to reconcile the canons and proceedings of the 7 Ecumenical Councils with the 1st Vatican Council and the modern claims of Rome to infallibility or universal jurisdiction.

Fr. John W.  Morris

I agree. One thing I like about the east is deeper knowledge of Church history. In traditional Catholicism let's say Church history starts in the Middle Ages with some trads and at around 1800-1950 it seems with more American/liberal trads. Their idea of traditionalism is Victorian/1950ish nonsense. And for the modern Church, conservatives tend to focus more on apologetics and only Church history for the sake of that. Liberals just focus on "social justice".

The Easterns really embrace it all. Even with Christ it's Incarnation, Passion, and Resurrection and how it is all united as one good purpose for life. I think the West, for Catholics focuses on the Passion as understood in the Eucharist, which is good, but not so much the Resurrection as it's purpose of the Incarnation as its cause. I think this focus lead to the Calvinist obsession with Christ taking a beating to make up for our sins for an angry Father. Christmas is only important to Protestants of this sort so Christ could be born and grow up to take a beating. I think the Western rationalism is the cause of this in many ways, not allowing the mystical understanding which is found in the early Church rather than the Middle Ages where Scholasticism arose and gave all the mysteries of the Faith a sort of Aristotelian rationalism. For them you can't dare go against Aquinas after all and he pretty much seems to have put all the early Church Father behind him.
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« Reply #77 on: December 17, 2013, 10:59:42 PM »

Ironically in 1054, Cardinal Humbert who began the Western schism when he excommunicated Patriarch Michael I of Constantinople accused the Patriarch of taking the "filioque" out of the Creed.

Fr. John W. Morris

That's actually rather humorous and sad that a cardinal didn't know church history well enough to know the truth

It wasn't just him - all the West thought the same from the Carolingians until about Thomas of Aquino and probably the Council of Florence. Bernard of Clairvaux also believed the Greeks had taken filioque out of the Creed. It was a matter of Latin tradition...

The West still does not know Church history. The Roman Catholics steadfastly cling to their papalism although there is no way to reconcile the canons and proceedings of the 7 Ecumenical Councils with the 1st Vatican Council and the modern claims of Rome to infallibility or universal jurisdiction.

Fr. John W.  Morris

I agree. One thing I like about the east is deeper knowledge of Church history. In traditional Catholicism let's say Church history starts in the Middle Ages with some trads and at around 1800-1950 it seems with more American/liberal trads. Their idea of traditionalism is Victorian/1950ish nonsense. And for the modern Church, conservatives tend to focus more on apologetics and only Church history for the sake of that. Liberals just focus on "social justice".

The Easterns really embrace it all. Even with Christ it's Incarnation, Passion, and Resurrection and how it is all united as one good purpose for life. I think the West, for Catholics focuses on the Passion as understood in the Eucharist, which is good, but not so much the Resurrection as it's purpose of the Incarnation as its cause. I think this focus lead to the Calvinist obsession with Christ taking a beating to make up for our sins for an angry Father. Christmas is only important to Protestants of this sort so Christ could be born and grow up to take a beating. I think the Western rationalism is the cause of this in many ways, not allowing the mystical understanding which is found in the early Church rather than the Middle Ages where Scholasticism arose and gave all the mysteries of the Faith a sort of Aristotelian rationalism. For them you can't dare go against Aquinas after all and he pretty much seems to have put all the early Church Father behind him.

The difference is that the East never lost Aristotle and therefore put him in his right place in philosophy and science. However, Aristotle was forgotten in the West until they found Arabic translations of Aristotle during the reconquest of Spain from the Moors. Because Aristotle was fad, theologians in the West made the terrible mistake of believing that it was necessary to reconcile Christian theology with Aristotle thereby taking Aristotle out of context and laying the foundation for the secularization of the West by relying on human reason in a vain effort to comprehend the mysteries of God with the limited human mind. Is it not ironic that the West first read Aristotle from translations from Arabic instead in the original Greek like the East?

Fr. John W. Morris
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