Author Topic: Theological Differences Between Assyro-Chaldean and Greek Catholics  (Read 55081 times)

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Theological Differences Between Assyro-Chaldean and Greek Catholics
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2008, 02:03:48 AM »
This EO is not 'comfortable with that, no. Especially Christ's quoting the 22nd Psalm from the cross being interpreted in this fashion.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Theological Differences Between Assyro-Chaldean and Greek Catholics
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2008, 03:58:47 AM »
This EO is not 'comfortable with that, no. Especially Christ's quoting the 22nd Psalm from the cross being interpreted in this fashion.

Do you mean the quote from the Cross being interpreted as a separation of the Divinity and Humanity? If so, I fully agree.
I think Christ quoting the first line of the Psalm assumes the hearer is aware of the full text of the Psalm.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Theological Differences Between Assyro-Chaldean and Greek Catholics
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2008, 06:45:17 AM »
Do you mean the quote from the Cross being interpreted as a separation of the Divinity and Humanity? If so, I fully agree.
I think Christ quoting the first line of the Psalm assumes the hearer is aware of the full text of the Psalm.
Yes, and yes.
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Offline ronyodish

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Re: Theological Differences Between Assyro-Chaldean and Greek Catholics
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2008, 03:18:50 PM »
There was never a separation between the Divinity and Humanity in Christ.  At no time did the Son ever separate from His human Qnoma.  No Apostolic Church and tradition maintains that the Union was separated.  Specifically, the Assyro-Chaldean tradition, or the Churches of the East, vigorously reject a division or separation in Christ.

It is the One Christ who shows us His Divinity and His Humanity.  In the Incarnation, there are not two Sons, but one Son who is God and Man.

Quote
I'm not at all an expert in these things, but I get a feeling some of what you wrote above may contain some "separatist" (if that's a real word) language that would make the OO's feel uncomfortable.

Salpy,

As far as I know (and you can correct me on this), the OO in general seem to be more comfortable with the language of the Incarnate God, rather than God and Man.  At least, that's what Pope Shenouda III of the Coptic Orthodox says:

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Similarly, we speak about the nature of the Lord Jesus Christ,
the Incarnate God, and we do not say "God and man".
-----------

For us, we speak of the one Lord Jesus Christ, God and Man.  I see this as having the same meaning as Enfleshed God or Incarnate God, just different wording.  The Alexandrians loved to speak in terms of "Word/Flesh" or "God/Flesh", whereas we preferred a "Word/Man" or "God/Man" terminology.

God bless,

Rony

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Theological Differences Between Assyro-Chaldean and Greek Catholics
« Reply #94 on: September 06, 2008, 03:00:18 PM »
Quote
My first question is, does the Chaldean Church accept the phrase, "One of the Trinity suffered in the flesh?"

Salpy,

Being in the Catholic Communion, we don’t consider that phrase as heresy, since it was accepted as orthodox at Constantinople II, but we would re-express it like this:

One of the Trinity became Man and suffered.

The Chaldean version of the Creed says:  “. . . one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God . . . descended from heaven, betook a body by the power of the Holy Spirit, was conceived and born of the Virgin Mary and became man, who suffered and was crucified in the days of Pontius Pilate, who died . . .”

So you see, the Son, who is one Qnoma of the Trinity, became man and suffered.

Quote
My second question is, does the Chaldean Church teach that Christ's divinity and humanity ever seperated? 

No.  The Union of the Son and the human Qnoma was inseparable.  Christ was always One Person, His Divinity and His Humanity remained inseparable.

Quote
For example, on the Cross, when Christ said, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"  Do you believe that at that moment Christ's divinity left Him and that is why He said that?

No.  The one Person of the Union, the Lord Jesus Christ, cried that statement out as Man, not because a separation of the Union has occurred, but because the one Christ does certain things as God and certain things as Man.

Here is how Mar Narsai, a father of the Church of the East, describes Christ in the passion/death/resurrection:

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the  attendants seized Him and bound His hands, as Man;
and He healed the ear that Simon cut off, as God.
He stood in the place of judgement and bore insult, as Man;
and He declared that He is about to come in glory, as God.
He bore  His Cross upon His shoulder, as Man;
and He revealed and announced the  destruction of Zion, as God.
He was hanged upon the wood and endured the  passion, as Man;
and He shook the earth and darkened the sun, as God.

Nails were driven into His body, as Man;
and He opened the graves and quickened the dead, as  God.
He cried out upon the Cross 'My God, My God,' as Man;
and promised Paradise to the thief, as God.
His side was pierced with a spear, as  Man;
and His nod rent the temple veil, as God.
They embalmed His body and He was buried in the earth, as Man;
and He raised up His temple by His mighty  power, as God.
-----------------------------------------

By the way, in the Peshitta, the way to translate the phrase in Matt. 27:46 (ܐܝܠ ܐܝܠ ܠܡܢܐ ܫܒܩܬܢܝ) might be better done in English like this: “[my]God, [my]God, why have you spared me”.  This is how it is translated by Assyrian scholar Paul Younan.  In my opinion, this may be a better translation than the usual “forsaken me” translation.

Also, Jesus was utilizing Psalm 22:1 when he cried this out.

Thanks for the questions  :)

God bless,

Rony
In the Pascha service we speak of the sun darkening of the sun, etc. as Creation suffering with the Creator.  The "My God, My God why hast Thou forsaken Me?" as the Creator suffering with His Creation.

Thank you, Rony.  For me, personally, this is more useful than examining obscure terms from a language I don't speak.   :)

I'm not at all an expert in these things, but I get a feeling some of what you wrote above may contain some "separatist" (if that's a real word) language that would make the OO's feel uncomfortable.

I'm wondering about the feelings of the non-Chaldean Catholics, as well as the EO's.  Do they feel comfortable with the above?

This is an interesting topic.   :)
Depends on the context. In a historical context with that was Nestorian, with a separation in the hypostatic union of Christ, I'd have a problem with it.  In the Oriental Orthodox, with no such history, I wouldn't.  Quite the opposite.  In the EO Church there are lots of hymns that dwell on the paradox of the communication of idioms, which is what I think we have here, and would be no problem.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 03:06:00 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Eper04

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Re: Theological Differences Between Assyro-Chaldean and Greek Catholics
« Reply #95 on: May 09, 2017, 05:39:08 AM »
Chalcedon uses Greek terms, but it is essentially the same as this:

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Common Christological Declaration:

Therefore our Lord Jesus Christ is true God and true man, perfect in his divinity and perfect in his humanity, consubstantial with the Father and consubstantial with us in all things but sin. His divinity and his humanity are united in one person, without confusion or change, without division or separation. In him has been preserved the difference of the natures of divinity and humanity, with all their properties, faculties and operations. But far from constituting "one and another", the divinity and humanity are united in the person of the same and unique Son of God and Lord Jesus Christ, who is the object of a single adoration.
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This "common christological declaration" has no dogmatic value, and is simply an agreement signed between the Roman Church and the Assyrian Church.  It certainly cannot be held to have the same value as Chalcedon, which is a binding decree (horos) of an ecumenical council.

The reason that Chalcedon is worded the way it is, i.e., by using the terms prosopon and hypostasis in order to assert the fully unity of the incarnate Logos, was precisely in order to exclude the Nestorians, who could not in good conscience endorse the decree because it contradicted their own theological position.

As a Christian Roman Catholic I can say that we(meaning in this case catholics) do believe in the council of Chalcedon.

We also say that Our Lady is the Mother of God.
In part of the Christological declaration by Pope John Paul II says "...  In the light of this same faith the Catholic tradition addresses the Virgin Mary as "the Mother of God" and also as "the Mother of Christ". We both recognize the legitimacy and rightness of these expressions of the same faith and we both respect the preference of each Church in her liturgical life and piety."

 We do believe that Our Lord had two natures: Divine and human as described in the council of Chalcedon.
The Christological declaration was worded very carefully as you see, I'm the Vatican site to let the Assyrians know that our position will not change from all the ecumenical councils. From Holy mother church. Nothing in that respects will change.

The part that says in the Christological declaration:
"Therefore our Lord Jesus Christ is true God and true man, perfect in his divinity and perfect in his humanity, consubstantial with the Father and consubstantial with us in all things but sin. His divinity and his humanity are united in one person, without confusion or change, without division or separation. In him has been preserved the difference of the natures of divinity and humanity, with all their properties, faculties and operations. But far from constituting "one and another", the divinity and humanity are united in the person of the same and unique Son of God and Lord Jesus Christ, who is the object of a single adoration."

The next part is meant as a reference not for proletelization in any means. It is to show how Catholics believes with reference:

From a Catholic standpoint in a book called "My Catholic Faith." By Most Reverend  Louis LaRavoire Morrow, S.T.D. Bishop of Krishnagar republished 1994 says pg 58-59 says ( "Is Jesus Christ more than one Person? - No. Jesus Christ is only one person; and that person is the second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

throught the Gospels we can read about Jesus Christ as only one Person,  - eating, sleeping, talking, and dying, as only one Person.

1. A "person" is a being of intelligent and free, and responsible for his own actions. We attribute to him whatever good or evil he does in the use of his human powers, because he owns or controls those powers.

I am a human person, and everything I do is done by a human human person. But Christ is a Divine Person, since He is God. Whatever Jesus Christ did while He was on earth was of infinite dignity, since it was the work of a Divine Person.

2. Jesus Christ is Our Lord, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, true God and true Man. We call Him "Our Lord" because as God He is Lord and Master of all, and as our Savior He redeemed us with His Blood.

Christ is Our Creator, Redeemer, Lawgiver, Teacher, and Judge. All of these we mean when we say Our Lord. St. Paul says: "He is the Blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords... to whom be honor and everlasting dominion. Amen" (1 Tim. 6:15, 16).

3. There is one Person, the Devine Person, in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not a human person. Everything in Him even as Man is divine and worthy of adoration.

When we adore the sacred Heart, or the Precious Blood, we do not adore mere flesh, but the flesh United to the divinity. In Christ the human and the divine are inseperable."

Before you say anything let's read further and you will see it does confirm with the council of Chalcedon.
Right after I finish quoting the first part it continues saying.

"How many nature's has Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ has two natures: the nature of God and the nature of man.

1. A "nature" is a substance that is complete in itself as a source of activity. It differs from "person" in that while "person" determines what an individual is, "nature" determines what an individual can do.

In Jesus Christ Our Lord there are two natures: His divine and His human nature. Therefore He could and did act as God; He could and did act as man, while all the time He was God the Son.

2. Because of His Divine nature, Christ is truly God; because of His human nature, He is truly man. In His Divine nature He is the second Person of the Blessed Trinity, God the Son, the Eternal Word. He took His human nature from His mother.

Therefore Jesus Christ is both God and man; He has both Divine and human powers; He has knowledge, can and will act as God and as man. For example, whith His Human nature Jesus worked , ate, spoke, felt pain. But it was His divine nature that enabled Him to become transfigured, walk on the waters, raise the dead.

3. These two natures were United in a Divine Person Jesus Christ, the God-Man. They were intimately united, but they remained distinct. Neither was absorbed by the other. When iron and gold are welded into one solid mass, they continue to retain all their individual properties distinct from each other. The union of the divine and human natures in Christ is called the hypocritical union.

Christ is true God and true man; this is why we call Him God-Man. Beings obtain their nature from their origins; for this reason a child has a human nature, from its human parents. Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Has a Divine nature; moreover, as a man He was born of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and thus His human nature, This is why Christ often referred to Himself indiscriminately as "Son of God" or "Son of Man"

4. As a consequence of these two natures, Christ had also two wills.

We can see this very clearly in His prayer in the Garden of Olives before His passion. He said: " Nevertheless, not My will, but thine be done." He was referring to His human will, for His divine will was surely the same as His Father's" )

I hope this helps to clarify the views from a Catholic perspective. There is more sources but I believe this is explains with much detail.

And yes we do believe that Our Lady is the Theotokos.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Theological Differences Between Assyro-Chaldean and Greek Catholics
« Reply #96 on: May 09, 2017, 06:06:07 AM »
^This is eight years old thread and the participants haven't been active for a while.
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