Author Topic: Jesus' divinity  (Read 590 times)

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Offline Azul

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Jesus' divinity
« on: June 07, 2012, 02:38:21 PM »
Was Jesus really a divine person?How could He?It doesn`t make sense.
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline biro

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Re: Jesus' divinity
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2012, 02:41:41 PM »
John 1:1-20 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)



Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.

8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light.

9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.

16 And of his fulness we all have received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline Azul

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Re: Jesus' divinity
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2012, 02:45:25 PM »
John 1:1-20 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)



Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.

8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light.

9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.

16 And of his fulness we all have received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline J Michael

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Re: Jesus' divinity
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2012, 03:36:58 PM »
Was Jesus really a divine person?How could He?It doesn`t make sense.

Arianism.

Do you recite the Nicene Creed?  Do you believe what you recite?  Read anything by St. Athanasius the Great?  Check him out.  Read On The Incarnation of the Word by him---http://www.ccel.org/ccel/athanasius/incarnation.titlepage.html

Btw, just because something doesn't make sense to us doesn't means it's untrue.  The Holy Trinity?  A virgin birth?  How crazy is all of that??

Do you have *faith*?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 03:43:23 PM by J Michael »
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Jesus' divinity
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2012, 04:26:35 PM »
i think it's a good question and here is a good place to ask it.
 :)
to oversimplify the situation (and i hope some good theologians write some posts soon that are better than mine),
God is all powerful, so it is no difficult thing for Him to take on human nature, purify it and deliver humans from death by rising from the dead without any separation from or confusion with the human nature.

by God taking on our nature, we can take on His (become more like Him).
He did not rescue us by reaching from afar; but He came to our level to show us how to ascend to His level.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Jesus' divinity
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2012, 04:44:01 PM »
Either God can do anything including what Christians say He did, in which case the problem is not impossibility but our own limitations of understanding, or God cannot do anything, in which case we would have to wonder if He is truly God. Of course, we know that He is truly God, so for most people it is not such a problem. :)

Regarding the verse you've brought from Numbers, it is important not to overlook the second halves of each part:

God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

(emphasis mine)

Now, I'm not a fancy big city lawyer, but it seems to me that it is saying "God doesn't Y, as He isn't X", meaning, essentially, "God doesn't Y". In other words, God doesn't lie, and so needn't repent -- those are the characteristics of man. If Christ had lied and repented thereof, then this verse would apply to Him...but of course, then He would not be God.

Of course, we know from many verses (e.g., 2 Corinthians 5:21) that Christ knew no sin, so this verse in Numbers would not seem to apply to Him. Rather, it seems by the next two lines, it is teaching us to trust in God's promises. He has said (something), and so He will do. That's it.

Does anyone have any Patristic commentary on this verse? I never know where to find those things, or I'd have just posted it.  :-[
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 04:44:42 PM by dzheremi »

Offline J Michael

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Re: Jesus' divinity
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2012, 04:45:29 PM »
i think it's a good question and here is a good place to ask it.
 :)
to oversimplify the situation (and i hope some good theologians write some posts soon that are better than mine),
God is all powerful, so it is no difficult thing for Him to take on human nature, purify it and deliver humans from death by rising from the dead without any separation from or confusion with the human nature.

by God taking on our nature, we can take on His (become more like Him).
He did not rescue us by reaching from afar; but He came to our level to show us how to ascend to His level.

It is a good question, and you provided a good, very "Athanasian" answer  ;).
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Jesus' divinity
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2012, 05:31:22 PM »
Btw, just because something doesn't make sense to us doesn't means it's untrue.

Can God become a platypus?

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Jesus' divinity
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2012, 06:12:23 PM »
Was Jesus really a divine person?How could He?It doesn`t make sense.

Exactly. It's a paradox. God became man. It confounds all human rationality because the foolishness of God makes foolish the wisdom of men.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Jesus' divinity
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2012, 06:13:56 PM »
John 1:1-20 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)



Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.

8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light.

9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.

16 And of his fulness we all have received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Behold, I do a new thing, God speaks through Isaiah. Do you not perceive it?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Melodist

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Re: Jesus' divinity
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2012, 07:17:02 PM »
Was Jesus really a divine person?How could He?It doesn`t make sense.

How could anyone other than a divine Person have the power to save us?
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline J Michael

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Re: Jesus' divinity
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2012, 10:08:50 AM »
Btw, just because something doesn't make sense to us doesn't means it's untrue.

Can God become a platypus?

 ::)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Jesus' divinity
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2012, 01:48:42 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus CHrist!

It doesn`t make sense.
I do believe that is precisely the point ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10