Author Topic: Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite  (Read 36246 times)

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Offline Suaiden

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #136 on: June 05, 2008, 01:35:29 AM »
Which synod condemned the Wiccan sabbat? That's ridiculous.
What does that have to do with what I said?  I'm addressing your charge that the Liturgy of St. Tikhon is a heretical liturgy, a charge that arimethea asked you formally, in his role as this board's moderator, to substantiate.  A formal charge of heresy demands an opinion other than your own to back it up.

This is not jurisdictional. It is about right and wrong. "Politics" aside.
No, this is about your view of right and wrong, which you are trying to preach to us.  Now, what synod ever formally condemned the Liturgy of St. Tikhon as heretical?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 01:36:11 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline prodromas

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #137 on: June 05, 2008, 01:35:59 AM »
That blog is a sham. He was reposed 60 years before that liturgy saw the light of day.

Without any sources both of those claims are on the same level of truth.

Quote
http://atheism.about.com/od/abouthumanism/a/reformation.htm

Yep that hands down proves that the BCP worships man! Could you please show me specifically where the BCP in word or spirit worships man and not God?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 01:39:12 AM by prodromas »
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
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(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline antiderivative

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #138 on: June 05, 2008, 01:36:04 AM »
You used the pronoun I there several times which is the whole point of a Western-Rite. People should have a choice of liturgy and the fact is that liturgies and rites are an organic evolution of Orthodoxy in the culture the way that turns out is completely cultural. I am a cradle and know nothing else besides an eastern Greek liturgy but I would like to see a western rite service.

Yes, I know, when writing a paper one isn't supposed to use 1st or 2nd person pronouns and it destroys one's ethos. Oh well, it's summer time for me, which means time to forget about grammar and punctuation! Haha!
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Offline Suaiden

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #139 on: June 05, 2008, 01:37:04 AM »
Then-Bishop of Denver Isaiah had this to say about Western Rite Liturgies back in 1995.  Source is also from Western Orthodoxy Blog. 

And then there's reality.

His Grace Bishop Anthony [of San Francisco - GOANSA] recently issued an encyclical concerning the "Western Rite" Orthodox parishes. These are Orthodox Churches which do not use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil, but instead celebrate revised versions of the Anglican and Roman mass. In America there are such parishes under the Antiochian Archdiocese, the Moscow Patriarchate and the so-called Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia. In the geographical area or the Diocese of San Francisco there are several such parishes, most notably in Whittier and Concord, California and in Spokane, Washington. His Grace issued this encyclical in response to numerous inquiries by the clergy and lay people on how to treat these parishes.

His Grace makes clear that while we accept the priests and lay people of these parishes as fully Orthodox we are to avoid any activity which would tend to imply agreement with the formation of such parishes. The reason for this disagreement is twofold: it is both liturgically unsound and pastorally unwise. "Liturgically unsound because these rites are not in direct continuity with the worship of the early Church in the West, but are primarily the result of 16th century Reformation or Counter Reformation debates; pastorally unwise because this adds still further to our fragmentation as a Church in the Americas and creates a tiny group of missions and parishes that are liturgically isolated from the rest of the Church."

The encyclical includes guidelines avoid improper activities:

"1. 'Western-rite' clergy of the Antiochian Archdiocese may not serve or receive communion in the parishes of this Diocese unless vested in traditional, 'eastern' Orthodox vestments.

"2. Clergy of this Diocese may not serve or participate in 'western-rite' liturgies.

"3. The participation of our laity in any pan-orthodox liturgical activity specifically with 'western-rite' parishes is to be actively discouraged."
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #140 on: June 05, 2008, 01:37:31 AM »
That blog is a sham. He was reposed 60 years before that liturgy saw the light of day.

Gee, I would think that others in this forum would have brought that "observation" to my attention.  I wouldn't consciously link to something if I knew that it was a "sham."

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #141 on: June 05, 2008, 01:38:38 AM »
Now it's time to put the BCP on trial... where it belongs.
And I suppose you would be the jury of one.
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Offline Suaiden

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #142 on: June 05, 2008, 01:39:17 AM »
Without any sources both of those claims are on the same level of truth.

Would you like his obituary??? He died April 7, 1925.  The liturgy of St Tikhon wasn't produced until the 70's.  I can prove when he died. Now prove, if even the AWRV says the liturgy in question wasn't done till the 70's, how it was done before.
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Offline prodromas

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #143 on: June 05, 2008, 01:39:41 AM »
And I suppose you would be the jury of one.

.... and Judge
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
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Offline Suaiden

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #144 on: June 05, 2008, 01:39:49 AM »
And I suppose you would be the jury of one.

There are more of us here than one, papa.
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Offline Suaiden

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #145 on: June 05, 2008, 01:41:10 AM »
Gee, I would think that others in this forum would have brought that "observation" to my attention.  I wouldn't consciously link to something if I knew that it was a "sham."

I'm not here to judge people, sorry. Don't know you from my neighbor. Just answering the questions.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #146 on: June 05, 2008, 01:41:30 AM »
And then there's reality.

Metropolitan Gerasimos replaced Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory.  I can't speculate if Met. Gerasimos has continued the policy or not other than to say that Western Rite Ministries have had 50 years of legitimacy under the omophorion of the Patriarch of Antioch.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #147 on: June 05, 2008, 01:41:44 AM »
There are more of us here than one, papa.
But who else cares?
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Offline Suaiden

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #148 on: June 05, 2008, 01:42:45 AM »
What does that have to do with what I said?  I'm addressing your charge that the Liturgy of St. Tikhon is a heretical liturgy, a charge that arimethea asked you formally, in his role as this board's moderator, to substantiate.  A formal charge of heresy demands an opinion other than your own to back it up.

You asked for a canon condemning people who had nothing to do with Orthodoxy for 500 years as though they were not heretics if there was a canon.

No, this is about your view of right and wrong, which you are trying to preach to us.  Now, what synod ever formally condemned the Liturgy of St. Tikhon as heretical?

Here we go again.

What synod condemned the Jehovah's Witnesses as heretical?
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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #149 on: June 05, 2008, 01:43:40 AM »
Metropolitan Gerasimos replaced Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory.  I can't speculate if Met. Gerasimos has continued the policy or not other than to say that Western Rite Ministries have had 50 years of legitimacy under the omophorion of the Patriarch of Antioch.

Too bad both the Bishops you mention are GOA.
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Offline prodromas

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #150 on: June 05, 2008, 01:43:49 AM »
What synod condemned the Jehovah's Witnesses as heretical?

The First Ecumenical council when the stopped the Arian Heresy.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 01:44:50 AM by prodromas »
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
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השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline prodromas

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #151 on: June 05, 2008, 01:47:42 AM »
Yes, I know, when writing a paper one isn't supposed to use 1st or 2nd person pronouns and it destroys one's ethos. Oh well, it's summer time for me, which means time to forget about grammar and punctuation! Haha!

Lol yeah don't get me started. Sorry that wasn't my emphasis I was talking more about personal choice not punctuation :) sorry for the mix up.
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #152 on: June 05, 2008, 01:49:53 AM »
What synod condemned the Jehovah's Witnesses as heretical?
Please don't answer my question with a question.  You have with your last two analogies connected the Liturgy of St. Tikhon with the Wiccan sabbat and the Jehovah's Witnesses as heresies that need no formal condemnation.  I am working to support my fellow moderator--if you haven't noticed yet, I too am a moderator--to get from you the formal substantiation he requested to support your condemnation of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon.  Until you tell us what synod condemned the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, your charge of heresy is purely your own groundless opinion.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 01:54:36 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Suaiden

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #153 on: June 05, 2008, 01:52:30 AM »
Please don't answer my question with a question.  You have with your last two analogies connected the Liturgy of St. Tikhon with the Wiccan sabbat and the Jehovah's Witnesses as heresies that need no formal condemnation.  I am working to support my fellow moderator--if you haven't noticed yet, I too am a moderator--to get from you the formal substantiation he requested to support your condemnation of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon.  Until you tell us what synod condemned the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, your charge of heresy is groundless.

The "Liturgy of St Tikhon" is a barely-edited BCP rite.

Anglicanism also needs no formal condemnation.
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Offline Suaiden

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #154 on: June 05, 2008, 01:53:44 AM »
The First Ecumenical council when the stopped the Arian Heresy.

Wrong, because Jehovah's Witnesses share views with Arians. They are condemned, on those grounds, by a number of councils, as are the Anglicans-- such as Chalcedon.
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Offline prodromas

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #155 on: June 05, 2008, 01:56:10 AM »
The "Liturgy of St Tikhon" is a barely-edited BCP rite.

Anglicanism also needs no formal condemnation.

How is the BCP rite heretical with those edits?
Quote
Wrong, because Jehovah's Witnesses share views with Arians. They are condemned, on those grounds, by a number of councils, as are the Anglicans-- such as Chalcedon.

What are you even trying to say? How did Chalcedon rebuke Anglicanism? What are you even trying to say in the first sentence?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 01:58:04 AM by prodromas »
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline Suaiden

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #156 on: June 05, 2008, 01:56:11 AM »
^^^^^ OK, Let me play Devil's Advocate with 2 Saints common to Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

St. Martin of Tours (May his memory be eternal) who lived in the 4th Century is both a Catholic and Orthodox saint.  What Liturgy did he celebrate?

When He was ordained Bishop of Tours in 372, what Liturgy was celebrated at his Ordination?

The Venerable Bede (May his memory be eternal), who lived in the 7th & 8th Centuries and served as a priest for 59 Years, what Liturgy did He celebrate during those periods?

Sources can be found at http://www.newadvent.org

Edited due to previous poster adding 4 posts after the one I was replying to; hence, the 5 carets.

I know it wasn't the "Liturgy of St Tikhon". I'd have to look it up. Probably some Gallican or Roman form in the former, and a Roman in the latter.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #157 on: June 05, 2008, 01:56:52 AM »
The "Liturgy of St Tikhon" is a barely-edited BCP rite.
So what if it is?  This may make the liturgy [arguably] inadequate for church use, but this doesn't make it heretical.
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Offline Suaiden

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #158 on: June 05, 2008, 02:00:02 AM »
What do you mean?

Pre-schism rites are real. Period. And people use them. Period. And they aren't in the AWRV's "Anglican rite", they can be found in ROCOR, Milan, and other places.

Western Orthodoxy is coming back.
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Offline Suaiden

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #159 on: June 05, 2008, 02:00:31 AM »

Where? Where and Where?

I cited this. Argue with them. I wasn't there.

But I believe them.
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Offline Suaiden

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #160 on: June 05, 2008, 02:02:05 AM »
The "facts" in this case depend on your perspective.  I'm sorry to say it, but according to the mainstream of Orthodox churches (i.e., those in communion with Constantinople), the Milan Synod is in schism from the Church.  You can argue your view of canonicity vs. the "institutional/legalistic" view held by this mainstream--I can certainly see some truth in both points of view, so I really don't want to argue that subject here--but this doesn't change the fact that according to most of the churches represented here, the Milan Synod is a schism blessed by a bishop who was himself deemed schismatic.

What you mean is "Milan is a schism blessed by the head of the Old Calendar Church of Greece, Archbishop Auxentios of Athens."

At least say who you are talking about.

If you are ok with the above sentence, I'll agree to it.
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Offline Suaiden

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #161 on: June 05, 2008, 02:05:08 AM »
So what if it is?  This may make the liturgy [arguably] inadequate for church use, but this doesn't make it heretical.

I see we are heading back to the "how Orthodox read it" argument.  See #63.  Can we see the circle forming?

If I say it's heretical and you say "we don't read it that way" there is little left to say at the outset. Now read #63 without edits, thanks.
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Offline prodromas

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #162 on: June 05, 2008, 02:05:14 AM »
What you mean is "Milan is a schism blessed by the head of the Old Calendar Church of Greece, Archbishop Auxentios of Athens."

At least say who you are talking about.

If you are ok with the above sentence, I'll agree to it.

A schism blessed by another schismatic. Two wrongs do not make a right.
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #163 on: June 05, 2008, 02:05:53 AM »
You have with your last two analogies connected the Liturgy of St. Tikhon with the Wiccan sabbat and the Jehovah's Witnesses as heresies that need no formal condemnation.
Besides, I'm not aware that the Wiccan sabbat or any JW heresies ever received the blessing of an Orthodox bishop for dissemination within any diocese of the Orthodox Church, unlike the Liturgy of St. Tikhon.
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Offline Suaiden

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« Reply #164 on: June 05, 2008, 02:06:49 AM »
A schism blessed by another schismatic. Two wrongs do not make a right.

And thank YOU for sharing.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #165 on: June 05, 2008, 02:07:27 AM »
A schism blessed by a schism..... Now there's credibility for you!
It amazes me how many branch schisms those who schism from the Church form. And, ironically, all in the name of opposing the Branch Theory! :D
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« Reply #166 on: June 05, 2008, 02:09:52 AM »
A schism blessed by a schism..... Now there's credibility for you!
It amazes me how many branch schisms those who schism from the Church form. And, ironically, all in the name of opposing the Branch Theory! :D
Eventually after anathematizing everyone else, you find that you have no one left to condemn but yourself.
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Offline SolEX01

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« Reply #167 on: June 05, 2008, 02:10:52 AM »
Drop the melodrama. It's happening and it's been recorded. By the way, what do you think of Kasper showing up in Russia with Greek Archdiocese Bishops to "smooth it over"?

Are you also going to tell me that 2+2 is 5 and torture me like in 1984?

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« Reply #168 on: June 05, 2008, 02:14:43 AM »
Excuse me? Who are you? Address yourself privately if you wish.

Ding, ding, ding, we have baiting by a troll. 

Offline Suaiden

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« Reply #169 on: June 05, 2008, 02:15:52 AM »
Ding, ding, ding, we have baiting by a troll. 

What? You mentioned my wife. Start talking, sir, trolls hide. People know who I am.
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Offline prodromas

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« Reply #170 on: June 05, 2008, 02:16:26 AM »
Excuse me? Who are you? Address yourself privately if you wish.

He is referring to you.

You referred to your "loving wife" (they are in quotation marks not in mocking but to show you said this" as the web master of the site.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 02:17:59 AM by prodromas »
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline SolEX01

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #171 on: June 05, 2008, 02:19:02 AM »
What? You mentioned my wife. Start talking, sir, trolls hide. People know who I am.

You mentioned your wife first as a web maintainer; hence, the comment that both of you are communicants in the Milan Synod.  By saying that people know who you are, maybe past identities associated with the Milan Synod have graced this forum in the past?

Offline Suaiden

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #172 on: June 05, 2008, 02:20:00 AM »
You mentioned your wife first as a web maintainer; hence, the comment that both of you are communicants in the Milan Synod.  By saying that people know who you are, maybe past identities associated with the Milan Synod have graced this forum in the past?

That means nothing; apostates are everywhere.

Be more specific.
Still a Deacon of the Autonomous Metropolia, Nope, Still Don't Like Ecumenism, Yep, Still Western "Rite"

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #173 on: June 05, 2008, 02:22:11 AM »
We have a new website for the St Gregory's Press to purchase the full cycle of Western Rite Services...

Thanks. I see it off the links. Very impressive websites, presentation is well done.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline SolEX01

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #174 on: June 05, 2008, 02:22:44 AM »
That means nothing; apostates are everywhere.

Be more specific.

Since I've been on this forum, a few people associated with the Milan Synod have been placed on "Moderated" status for various violations of the forum rules.

Offline nyc_xenia

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #175 on: June 05, 2008, 02:23:39 AM »
As a congregant of the Milan Synod and maintainer (with your wife) of various websites...SNIP

I'm sorry, "a maintainer" with me?

 I just want to clarify that I am the SOLE webmaster for milansynodusa.org & the St. Gregory's Press Site.

The ONLY person who has maintained any websites I have redone (yet not with me) for The Holy Synod of Milan (in the USA) is Father Symeon.

Sorry...as for the rest of the message, I have no interest in it.

So, you all have fun.  I'm going back to scripting.

Chow, it's been a slice.

BTW, Happy Feast!
 
;D

Offline prodromas

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #176 on: June 05, 2008, 02:24:19 AM »
Since I've been on this forum, a few people associated with the Milan Synod have been placed on "Moderated" status for various violations of the forum rules.

The only one I know of that didn't was George and he was a convert that wasn't aware of the non-canonical status of the church and has found a new church which is canonical.
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline Suaiden

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #177 on: June 05, 2008, 02:24:43 AM »
Since I've been on this forum, a few people associated with the Milan Synod have been placed on "Moderated" status for various violations of the forum rules.

Such an answer is unclear. Who are you?
Still a Deacon of the Autonomous Metropolia, Nope, Still Don't Like Ecumenism, Yep, Still Western "Rite"

Offline SolEX01

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #178 on: June 05, 2008, 02:25:43 AM »
That means nothing; apostates are everywhere.

Be more specific.

Would the term "apostate" apply to everyone in this board who doesn't share the sentiments espoused by any uncanonical Orthodox Jurisdiction?

Offline ozgeorge

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Liturgy of St. Tikhon vs. Sarum Rite
« Reply #179 on: June 05, 2008, 02:26:11 AM »
You need real Western Orthodoxy, brother, and you won't find it in the "Western Rite" AWRV.

All's I gotta say.

This is prosyletizing. This contravenes our forum rules, Specifically:
Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is no longer allowed.  I don't care if it is the GOA or the ROAC, we don't exist to give spiritual advice, but rather to discuss spiritual matters. There is a healthy distinction.  If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message.
This is your final warning.
George
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.