Topic: Orthodox and Anglicanism

[Orthodox Wannabe]

So back in the day particularly during the Oxford movement relations between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism were fairly cordial. What is the state of the relations today since Anglicanism has embraced the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.

[buzuxi]

They are still cordial and they (the anglicans) are still NOT Orthodox. Never were,never will.

[Riddikulus]

the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.

  I'm sure you don't mean this to sound so disrespectful to our Anglican forum members.

[Αριστοκλής]

Perhaps you'd prefer he re-word the post but express the same thing? By not defining "things" I thought him polite actually.

[ozgeorge]

Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.
I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.

[ialmisry]

Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.
I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.

Doubt it, but my question for the conservative Anglicans has been that many in there church have been denying the Resurrection, and yet remaining "priests," (and then there is "bishop" Spong), but they swallowed that.  Women priests are the breaking point?

[Fr. George]

Doubt it, but my question for the conservative Anglicans has been that many in there church have been denying the Resurrection, and yet remaining "priests," (and then there is "bishop" Spong), but they swallowed that.  Women priests are the breaking point?

I was just thinking the same thing.  Thanks for bringing it up.

[Αριστοκλής]

Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.
I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.

GreekisChristian II

[PeterTheAleut]

GreekisChristian II

Now, that's not fair!   Ordination of women was certainly one of GiC's pet issues, but that doesn't make any other posters who advocate women's ordination even close to anything like GiC.  LOL!

[AMM]

Never say never....

http://www.ocl.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=AboutUs.ReflectionsRecommendations&CFID=114051198&CFTOKEN=15407403

[Rosehip]

Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.
I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.

Why do you say this, ozgeorge? I was under the impression that this is something we stand firmly against as Orthodox Christians! It gives a sense of legitimacy and changelessness to the Church.

[Entscheidungsproblem]

Why do you say this, ozgeorge? I was under the impression that is is something we stand firmly against as Orthodox Christians!

You will find ozgeorge is more progressive with certain issues than others.   

[SolEX01]

Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.
I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.

Only if there were women priests during the Old Testament priesthood.   

[AMM]

http://www.archons.org/news/detail.asp?id=234

[Αριστοκλής]

Never say never....

http://www.ocl.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=AboutUs.ReflectionsRecommendations&CFID=114051198&CFTOKEN=15407403

There is not much, if anything, I take seriously from the OCL. And Dr. Elisabeth Behr-Sigel is nothing but an liberal agitator who wants an Episcopal Orthodox Church.

[PeterTheAleut]

It gives a sense of legitimacy and changelessness to the Church.

As opposed to what?

[zebu]

They are still cordial and they (the anglicans) are still NOT Orthodox. Never were,never will.

Pretty sure I was once Anglican and am now Orthodox.

[Orthodox11]

I could certainly see the ordination of women being accepted by certain local churches under the guidance of another Meletios-type figure, for whom schism was a price worth paying for progressiveness.

Then again, there seems to be a general movement towards a more ascetic ideal (not necessarily in practice - fasting, for example, rarely occurs even among clergy - but there is a reverence for it), which would make such an occurrance unlikely as long as there remained strong and visible monastic communities á la Athos.

One can also look at the Roman Catholic Church, whose reforms have at times been more radical than some Protestant groups, and who are pressured by reformers like no other, yet have managed to retain a male priesthood.

[Rosehip]

As opposed to what?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this question. I thought it was our very refusal to change despite the whims of popular christianity that shows that we indeed have something to offer, and helps  provide proof that we are indeed the original and true church (at least that's what I've been told over and over again). But I'm not here to argue the point at all-I was simply  taken by surprise because I've never heard an Orthodox person speaking favourably of female priests, that's all.

[Asteriktos]

So back in the day particularly during the Oxford movement relations between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism were fairly cordial. What is the state of the relations today since Anglicanism has embraced the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.

They're still cordial. You mostly hear about the Ecumenical Patriarch having meetings with them, though others might also have such talks.

[Αριστοκλής]

I could certainly see the ordination of women being accepted by certain local churches under the guidance of another Meletios-type figure, for whom schism was a price worth paying for progressiveness.

The M-Bomb makes any opinion valid...not.

[lubeltri]

One can also look at the Roman Catholic Church, whose reforms have at times been more radical than some Protestant groups, and who are pressured by reformers like no other, yet have managed to retain a male priesthood.

Yeah, Rome just last week reiterated the excommunication of all those involved in attempted* ordinations of women---both the "ordainers" and the "ordained."

*John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (1994): "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."

[buzuxi]

If the Orthodox church accepts females into the priesthood then it no longer is orthodox and will have severed itself from the Body of Christ, if you see this run away from it and towards the Orthodox church.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

^ But if we accept women, we should be okay. Right?

[buzuxi]

^ But if we accept women, we should be okay. Right?

them too! Nuns as well. Hermaphrodites, maybe we can debate

[ozgeorge]

It gives a sense of legitimacy and changelessness to the Church.

...like Communing of the Body in the hand and the Blood from the chalice, but now, with a spoon.....
...like Deaconesses being banned and now re-introduced.....
...like women covering their heads in church and now not so in many Churches (in contravention of Scripture)....
...like monks being beardless and tonsured with the papalethra, but now grrowing beards and long hair (in contravention of Scripture)........

"For the times they are a changing...."

[ozgeorge]

Lets keep this thread on topic now, and for those of you who have the interest in the subject of Women's Ordination in the Orthodox Church (and lots of time on your hands to read). there is a rather lengthy thread on the subject here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8894.0.html

[Orthodox Wannabe]

Perhaps you'd prefer he re-word the post but express the same thing? By not defining "things" I thought him polite actually.

That was my intent. My Priest a Greek Orthodox before he retired called the Episcopal Church in the US a "gnostic sect with women dressing up and playing Priest." I think that was less polite than things.
What I refered to by "things" was the fact that you don't need to believe in the bodily resurection or the virgin birth or any of the ancient creeds to be considered a good episcopalian.

[Orthodox Wannabe]

Women Priest are going to happen in the Orthodox Church. It's just a matter of time and generations passing.
I wouldn't use it as a line in the sand for anything.

Are you serious?
 I had always understood the Orthodox Church to be Orthodox. If it ordains women it will not only be not Orthodox but just another protestant sect.

Is womens "ordination" being discussed by the Orthodox Church? Maybe I should rethink my conversion to "Orthodoxy".

[Orthodox Wannabe]

I'm sure you don't mean this to sound so disrespectful to our Anglican forum members.

No I didn't. From all the Episcopal church members I have spoke to they think this "progressive" stuff is their greatest asset.

[Orthodox Wannabe]

To get back to topic. I was just wondering because I had thought by some things that I have read that during the late 1800's the Anglican's and Orthodox had lots of diologue and this helped to bring about the western rite. And I was just curious as to how things were going now days because of these changes in Anglicanism.

As an aside I have LOTS of respect for traditional High Church Anglicans. Much more Catholic now days then the Catholic Church, or at least they were in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

[Asteriktos]

Is womens "ordination" being discussed by the Orthodox Church? Maybe I should rethink my conversion to "Orthodoxy".

Certain people, such as Bp. Kallistos, say that we should talk about it rather than running away from the issue. There isn't really a large movement for the ordination of women in the Orthodox Church.

[cascott1]

I don't know much about the big picture, but I can say that OCF at my university meets at the Episcopal parish that I attend.  It's going well so far. 

[buzuxi]

That Orthodox were close to the Anglicans is a myth. Dont mistake liturgical abuses especially ones during a  heretical patriarch to mean some sort of closeness to another religion. There is only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church, others are fallen away, "closeness" doesnt help them.

[prodromas]

I don't know much about the big picture, but I can say that OCF at my university meets at the Episcopal parish that I attend.  It's going well so far. 

First of all welcome cascott1 to OC.net I hope OCF is doing great work on your campus. Secondly I think a lot of Orthodox have a misunderstanding of Anglicanism and Episcopalianism to the point that borders on primitive fear. I decided to study about the church cleared up my misunderstandings about it and can assure you that the high church tradition is closer to Orthodox ecclesiology and theology is closer than our Roman Catholic brothers.

[Asteriktos]

Fwiw, St. Raphael is an example of someone who sat on both sides of the fence during his life. He believed at one point that the Anglicans "possessed largely the Orthodox Faith," and even allowed that "the ministrations of the Episcopal (Anglican) clergy might be kindly requested" in extreme cases when no Orthodox priest was around. However, after further consideration he felt that he had to "resign from the vice-presidency of and membership in the Anglican and Eastern Orthodox Churches Union," and came to the conclusion that: "the doctrinal teaching and practices, as well as the discipline, of the whole Anglican Church are unacceptable to the Holy Orthodox Church." (Source).

[Ebor]

So back in the day particularly during the Oxford movement relations between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism were fairly cordial. What is the state of the relations today since Anglicanism has embraced the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.

Well, calling things "garbage" is umm perhaps a bit off-putting.  Could you please give some examples of the things you have in mind? 

Thanks in advance. 

Ebor

[Ebor]

That was my intent. My Priest a Greek Orthodox before he retired called the Episcopal Church in the US a "gnostic sect with women dressing up and playing Priest."

Sigh.  Well, that's kind of sweeping, and doesn't cover the whole spectrum of Episcopalians or Anglicans.

What I refered to by "things" was the fact that you don't need to believe in the bodily resurection or the virgin birth or any of the ancient creeds to be considered a good episcopalian.

I apologize for posting my last before I'd read the whole thread.  Can you tell us where you got this impression please?  The stories that end up in the papers and on the 'Net aren't the whole picture.  Also, I think in the thread from a while back on Anglicans, there is some discussion that might be considered.

Ebor

[Orthodox Wannabe]

Sigh.  Well, that's kind of sweeping, and doesn't cover the whole spectrum of Episcopalians or Anglicans.

I apologize for posting my last before I'd read the whole thread.  Can you tell us where you got this impression please?  The stories that end up in the papers and on the 'Net aren't the whole picture.  Also, I think in the thread from a while back on Anglicans, there is some discussion that might be considered.

Ebor

Well mostly I get this impression by what I see. All one has to do is open up a newspaper that has a religion section and you'll see what the latest crisis in the Episcopal Church is. A couple weeks ago I read an interview with "Bishop" Gene Robinson talking about how he is so happy to be a June Bride(if that isn't garbage I don't know what is) and this man is a Bishop of the Episcopal Church. Then you have diocese's splitting off and court cases regarding who owns Church property meanwhile at Christmas last year the ArchBishop of Cantebury said that the 3 wise men story may just be myth. We have an Episcopal Church in my town and their Rector writes in the religion section about all sorts of kooky left wing things. Two weeks back he wrote a column questioning the existance of not only Hell but God also.

If that's not enough two words:

Spong
Jefferts-Schori

I am not saying this to sound rude but out of sadness. I have been to a few episcopal churches and once one can get past the strange stuff they have a very beautiful liturgy.

[Orthodox Wannabe]

  Can you tell us where you got this impression please?  The stories that end up in the papers and on the 'Net aren't the whole picture.  

Ebor

I know that that isn't the whole story but it seems to be okay with the hierachy.

[Orthodox Wannabe]

...Oops pushed post too quick...

Which sort of gives it an official exceptance.

[Αριστοκλής]

What I refered to by "things" was the fact that you don't need to believe in the bodily resurection or the virgin birth or any of the ancient creeds to be considered a good episcopalian.

OK. I took his 'things' to be the 'gay-thing' in the episcopate.

[ozgeorge]

Is womens "ordination" being discussed by the Orthodox Church? Maybe I should rethink my conversion to "Orthodoxy".

Fine by me.
If the Orthodox Church has to define what it can and cannot discuss according to the lowest common denominator of the views of those who are thinking of joining it, then I think I'd want out.

[Fr. George]

Is womens "ordination" being discussed by the Orthodox Church?

Is anything being discussed by the Orthodox Church?  No, there are no issues of change of praxis or whatnot being discussed by the Church, because the pre-conciliar commissions have not met in awhile.  The Church of Greece has decided to restore the order of the deaconess in limited situations, but they're the only ones that have even approached the issue. 

Maybe I should rethink my conversion to "Orthodoxy". 

What can shake your faith in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

[Ebor]

Well mostly I get this impression by what I see. All one has to do is open up a newspaper that has a religion section and you'll see what the latest crisis in the Episcopal Church is.

And the stories that show up in the press aren't the sum-total of any Church let alone the Episcopalians/Anglicans. 

A couple weeks ago I read an interview with "Bishop" Gene Robinson talking about how he is so happy to be a June Bride(if that isn't garbage I don't know what is) and this man is a Bishop of the Episcopal Church.

What *I* would call it is the the personal feelings and words of one man. I don't know him.  He isn't my bishop. I didn't vote for him.  He is one man and he gets press coverage because sometimes he says things that are, let's say, surprising or out of the ordinary.  He's not the only Bishop, but most of the others aren't as controversial or perhaps flamboyant.  However, he is still a human being.

Then you have diocese's splitting off and court cases regarding who owns Church property

Yes, I know about that.  It's not limited to the Episcopalians either. 

meanwhile at Christmas last year the ArchBishop of Cantebury said that the 3 wise men story may just be myth.

Did you read the interview in which that was said?  I have and here is a link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1573214/Archbishop%27s-interview-with-Simon-Mayo.html

Reading things *in context* can be very helpful.    The Archbishop is talking about what is actually in the Gospels and then how things have become attached to that.  Here is what Cantuar+ said:

"Well Matthew's gospel doesn't tell us that there were three of them, doesn't tell us they were kings, doesn't tell us where they came from, it says they're astrologers, wise men, priests from somewhere outside the Roman Empire. That's all we're really told so, yes, 'the three kings with the one from Africa' - that's legend; it works quite well as legend." 

It's not that the Nativity is a "myth" (like some of the headlines said) or that he doesn't believe in Jesus as the Son and born of a virgin (he does).  It's the added on bits that aren't crucial.

We have an Episcopal Church in my town and their Rector writes in the religion section about all sorts of kooky left wing things. Two weeks back he wrote a column questioning the existance of not only Hell but God also.

Is the paper on-line so that the column could be read please?  I know that a lot of Montana papers have at least some of the publication on a website.  Again, the context of the question or statement can be very important.  What do you mean by "kooky left wing things" please? 

If that's not enough two words:

Spong
Jefferts-Schori

I am not saying this to sound rude but out of sadness. I have been to a few episcopal churches and once one can get past the strange stuff they have a very beautiful liturgy.

Well, Spong is now retired and doesn't get nearly the press coverage he used to get that I'm aware of. Can you please be more specific about the Presiding Bishop please, before I write on that point?

Thanks

Ebor