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Suaiden
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« Reply #90 on: June 11, 2008, 02:07:37 AM »

You said it.

She corrected that. I am not sure how fast a writer *you are*, but that was wrong.... as for you, if you support to the "Mess of--or more properly named after-- St Tikhon" you are no one to talk about disregarding the Fathers.

I would hope your conscience would be stung but I doubt it.
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« Reply #91 on: June 11, 2008, 02:08:31 AM »

Ah, yes. I forgot we've conquered sin.  And now orange juice is available from concentrate. For shame.

Ah yes thats exactly what I was trying to convey in my post before that we have conquered sin. Suaiden are you serious? I was saying how we live in DIFFERENT times.
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« Reply #92 on: June 11, 2008, 02:08:37 AM »

What?

No it wouldn't!  (Huh)

What has Christ to do with Baal?  Or the prophets of Baal to do with Elijah?

What?  Okay, never mind I said that.  What I meant to say is that there is a different interpretation from the Western side on that same canon of Nicea II that was posted earlier.  I'm sorry if that wasn't clear before.


Quote
Implied?  How so?

I've shared with you quotes from Western sources that tell us statues did exist in churches during Constantine's time and that Pope Gregory II, a defender of Nicea II owned a statue of St. Peter.  Implied in this is the acceptance of statues.  It would be ironic after mentioning these facts that somehow one would actually end up saying, "Oh and by the way, statues are heretical, even though these great Orthodox men used them."

Quote
Direct quote from the Catholic encyclopedia:
glad you found it
 
Quote
And are not from Orthodox interpretations at all...

Like I said before, these are not interpretations.  You can imply an interpretation from them.  These are actually facts.  It's no different from accepting the facts of the diagnosis of a Protestant physician.  Unless you can prove these facts are wrong, that's a different story.

Quote
I believe St. Nicodemus was also telling "facts". Nevertheless, with the grace of God directing him, he was also able (unlike the Catholic Encyclopedia) to give a theological intrepretation. 

Ya, he actually admitted that a woman piously used a statue of Christ and then proceed to interpret around that and dismissed her as simply a woman living a simple life and it was okay for her to do this.  But I'm afraid he oversimplifies and doesn't realize that it might have been quite a common thing to have, as it was during St. Constantine's time.

Quote
Many "modernist" can write an entry on a URL or "wiki", yet how many of them have been DECLARED saints?

Likewise for so-called "ultra-traditionalists." 

I only wanted to present to you a counter-argument from a Western pov.  It's called objectivity.  If you feel the need to dismiss it, go right ahead.  I really am not here to convince you if you're adamant about your position.  I only ask for you to do more research and be more open-minded.

God bless you.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 02:12:39 AM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: June 11, 2008, 02:12:10 AM »

Yet, I am strongly opposed to anything against what the Holy Fathers say. 

Maybe it's one of those Freudian parapraxis? What is your diagnosis George? Cheesy
 
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« Reply #94 on: June 11, 2008, 02:18:38 AM »

For an ORTHODOX, this 21st century of yours is just as much the time of the Holy Fathers as before.
Not really.
And what do you mean by "this 21st century of yours"- isn't it yours also or are you living in another century?
You seem to confuse what the Fathers taught with how they lived.
The Fathers forbade the administration of Holy Communion in any way but the Body being given in the hand of the Communicant and the Blood drunk directly from the Chalice (101st Canon of the Qintisext). Our practice is different now. We use a Spoon and administer both together with it. There has been no official decree to alter this Canon of an Oecumenical Council, yet, the Church has altered it, because the Church is a Living Tree, not a fossilized forest.
A fossil is dead, and it only resembles a tree, in reality it is rock.
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« Reply #95 on: June 11, 2008, 02:21:50 AM »

Not really.
And what do you mean by "this 21st century of yours"- isn't it yours also or are you living in another century?
You seem to confuse what the Fathers taught with how they lived.
The Fathers forbade the administration of Holy Communion in any way but the Body being given in the hand of the Communicant and the Blood drunk directly from the Chalice (101st Canon of the Qintisext). Our practice is different now. We use a Spoon and administer both together with it. There has been no official decree to alter this Canon of an Oecumenical Council, yet, the Church has altered it, because the Church is a Living Tree, not a fossilized forest.
A fossil is dead, and it only resembles a tree, in reality it is rock.

Really George? I want to to create another church which practices this "ancient" rite. Why do people constantly want the Orthodox to be stone age?
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The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
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« Reply #96 on: June 11, 2008, 02:33:58 AM »

Not really.
And what do you mean by "this 21st century of yours"- isn't it yours also or are you living in another century?
You seem to confuse what the Fathers taught with how they lived.
The Fathers forbade the administration of Holy Communion in any way but the Body being given in the hand of the Communicant and the Blood drunk directly from the Chalice (101st Canon of the Qintisext). Our practice is different now. We use a Spoon and administer both together with it. There has been no official decree to alter this Canon of an Oecumenical Council, yet, the Church has altered it, because the Church is a Living Tree, not a fossilized forest.
A fossil is dead, and it only resembles a tree, in reality it is rock.

NONSENSE!!! The Catholics do that, and I can't just accept it.  No no no...let me see what what a 17th century author says about this canon.  It might be just a pious canon and just an exception to the bishops' simple lives, but otherwise unacceptable and heretical.
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« Reply #97 on: June 11, 2008, 02:38:43 AM »

Really George? I want to to create another church which practices this "ancient" rite. Why do people constantly want the Orthodox to be stone age?
There is nothing wrong with ancient rites. They can and should be examined by the Church (I know I'd like a few revisited!) But it has to happen in the Church's time. But by the same token, we can't forget that we who are Gentiles have actually been grafted on to the Tree of the Church (Romans 11:17). The Church can graft anything in the Cosmos into herself and thereby sanctify it. Sometimes she needs to prune the cutting first before grafting it in, and she does this, as she has done with statues and the Liturgy of St. Tikhon. So don't mock someone because they use the Sarum rite- it is a venerable rite. The only thing in question here is the standard by which some who use the Sarum rite decree those who use the Liturgy of St. Tikhon to be in error.
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« Reply #98 on: June 11, 2008, 03:04:51 AM »

The difference between a Sacred object/ritual which is Orthodox and one which is "non-heterodox" is what precisely?

I as in "True Orthodox" or "Old Calenderist", (Orthodoxy or Death) believer would say, "Orthodoxy", period.

http://orthodoxchristian.blogspot.com/2007/12/end-time-instructions.html

That's me...

Quote
"Is" is present tense. "Was" is past tense. Smiley

Ask He who Was and Is and Is to come.

Why would you ask me such a thing?

 angel

Quote
This analogy only works if one buys the argument that Orthodox statues and the Liturgy of St. Tikhon are not "real food". You've yet to prove that.

As I tell my children, "Yes, child..."

Funny thing how you, who "defend" that outside of tradition have also yet to "PROVE" that that which you are claiming is "real food".

Huh, funny thing 'bout that.  Cool

Anywho--

The history of the actual Western RITES say something different than the "modernist" say (yes, "they", as in "MORE" than one Rite) to prove my "underground", "long-dead", "non-practiced" RITES "theory".

There is currently, a newly "innovated" rite, which "claims" to "substitute" the actual, get this, "Western Rite"(as in ONE solid Rite) What a riot? Right?!

Don't tell me that ANY of you have a doubt in your mind between ENGLAND, the Celtics or SPAIN?Huh

 Embarrassed

Sorry, if you do.

Then, it simply shows that you do NOT know the PEOPLE, their "history" nor their "Rites". Cry

No different from the Greeks, (now let's include Milan) they EACH have their own personal heritage and Ceremonial "RITE". Shocked Lips Sealed

Read the history and restoration of some of them if you will, before proclaiming that that which was set up UNTIL "a time of restoration" was the actual "Western Rite".

We, who uphold the "Western Traditions" of old are no different from the "Israel" of Old which would also arise in the "end".

To each "their lot".

What is that to you, or any other?

Lest you argue that which makes no historical sense...

...As in "modern innovations", or "new calendarism" and the like (i.e.; the participation in the W.C.C).
 
Quote
That's funny, I thought I just did say that. See my response to "Suiaden" earlier in this post, perhaps you can answer the question as well.

Ah.

So sorry...

You should have copied and clipped it for me, I don't have enough time to see what it was my husband and you had written to each other.

Maybe I will look at it tomorrow...

Quote
So what if you paint icons? I'm a psychologist, and believe me, you don't want to hear my opinion.

Man, I'll tell you what, you have probably never been so RIGHT!  police

Read: http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b02.en.orthodox_psychotherapy.01.htm

Perhaps my ideals and the "worlds" ideas are quiet separate from each other. But that, to me is how they should be.

So, yes, I "paint" icons, (although to me they are "written", much like the Gospel) and my "theological views" perchance differ from yours.

 I would not expect that "you" or anyone else here (unless they are "old calenderists") understand what has been pointed out (even by my husband "Suaiden") that is to say (that as "True Orthodox"), we are from two "different" worlds altogether. 

Call to mind: http://www.esphigmenou.com/.

BTW, best of luck to you.

As I, like you, must figure out how to work in the "world" for a temporal "pay".

Peace be with you.

 angel
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 03:25:30 AM by nyc_xenia » Logged
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« Reply #99 on: June 11, 2008, 03:41:29 AM »

I as in "True Orthodox" or "Old Calenderist", (Orthodoxy or Death) believer would say, "Orthodoxy", period.
Oh great, another one claiming to be "True Orthodox".

end-time-instructions.html
That's me...
How nice for you. You live your life according to an internet blog entry entitled "End Time Instructions".

Ask He who Was and Is and Is to come.
I see. So you equate your pronouncements here on OCnet as being equivalent to the Alpha and the Omega.


As I tell my children, "Yes, child..."
And as I tell people who try to be condescending- the only person you belittle is yourself by revealing your insecurity.

Funny thing how you, who "defend" that outside of tradition have also yet to "PROVE" that that which you are claiming is "real food".
You're doing it again! How can something be "outside the tradition of the Church" if the Church is practicing it?

We who uphold the "Western Traditions" of old are no different from the "Israel" of Old which would aslo arise in the "end".
This is the same siege mentality and "faithful remnant" mentality found in any cult from Heavens Gate to Jonestown to Westboro Baptist Church. Which one of them is the true "faithful remnant"?

To each "their lot".
Couldn't agree more. "Whoever is to be led into captivity will be led into captivity."


What is that to you or any other?
Nothing. Live and let live I say. But when you come here and do not allow others to live by calling their practices "non-Orthodox", you should expect a fight. So if your practices are nothing to me, then the AWR practices should expect the same from you. Oh, but I forgot- your Church is the sole harbinger of all truth.


As in modern innovations, new calendarism and the like (as in for example, the participation in the W.C.C. and the like).
Ah! It was just a matter of time before that one came up!  Cheesy
 

So sorry, you should have copied and clipped it for me, I don't have enough time to see what it was my husband and you had written to each other.
Ummm. It was in the same post you have just responded to....but anyway.

Maybe I will look at it tomorrow...
Suit yourself.

Man, I'll tell you what, you have probably never been so RIGHT!  police
Read: http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b02.en.orthodox_psychotherapy.01.htm
"Maybe I will look at it tomorrow...", or then again, may be there's a copy on my bookshelf which I have already read a few times.

Perhaps my ideals and the "worlds" ideas are quiet separate from each other. But that, to me is how they should be.
Yup. Or may be they actually aren't so different. "My groups ideas are right and everyone else is wrong" is not such a unique claim in the world.

So, yes, I "paint" icons,
The Greek word "graphy" means drawing/painting as well as writing.
"Zography"= "Life drawing/painting" (where the holy monastery of Zographou gets it's name)
"Iconography"= "Icon drawing/painting"

(although to me they are "written", much like the Gospel)
And like heresies are often written. Or are you making the claim that an iconographer is automatically "Equal-to-the-Evangelists"?

as "True Orthodox", we are from two "different" worlds altogether. 
Well, thanks for visiting the real world. I hope you decide to stay.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 04:01:49 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #100 on: June 11, 2008, 04:09:44 AM »

What?  Okay, never mind I said that.  What I meant to say is that there is a different interpretation from the Western side on that same canon of Nicea II that was posted earlier.  I'm sorry if that wasn't clear before.

Okie-dokie, I guess...

Let's move along then.


Quote
I've shared with you quotes from Western sources that tell us statues did exist in churches during Constantine's time and that Pope Gregory II, a defender of Nicea II owned a statue of St. Peter. 

I hate to be petty, but with all actuality, you didn't. 

I posted the exact ref. here to view.

Quote
Implied in this is the acceptance of statues.

Now, we seem to be "assuming things" again aren't we? As in "St. Nicodemous"...

Quote
It would be ironic after mentioning these facts that somehow one would actually end up saying, "Oh and by the way, statues are heretical, even though these great Orthodox men used them."

Wouldn't you mean found the 'economia' to 'allow' them to 'remain'?

Just "IMHO", I'm glad you found it.
 
Quote
Like I said before, these are not interpretations.

Truth be told, they SHOULD be. For our own "safety", within "Orthodoxy's" sake. 

 
Quote
You can imply an interpretation from them.  These are actually facts.  It's no different from accepting the facts of the diagnosis of a Protestant physician.  Unless you can prove these facts are wrong, that's a different story.

No, I hate to disagree.  But I do.

When I bent my neck to venerate the Holy Sepulchre, the "protestants" had "their" "place of the skull" and the "Orthodox", had another.

Yet, I bent my head in prayer and "faith" towards the side of the "Orthodox".

The Holy Fire came down...the Holy "Light & Cloud" on Tabor, and I continued to venerate that which was "Orthodox".

I care not so much for that which is "outside" of my "faith".

I only care that I, like the many other "faithful" in the "book of life", follow their "faith".

What is that to you or any other? I do not know.

I only know the pattern that is set within the rock of Sinai, the crystal embedded therein and the great joy which come upon living over the rock where the Theotokos gave her sash to St. Thomas.

Nevertheless, you say...
 
Quote
Ya, he actually admitted that a woman piously used a statue of Christ and then proceed to interpret around that and dismissed her as simply a woman living a simple life and it was okay for her to do this.

No, it was not for "her" okay.  But for mercy's (economia's) sake, that this "statue" remained. 

However, let us remind ourselves, that the Holy Fathers did NOt issue a blessing for it's "manufacturing", nor "reproduction".

 
Quote
But I'm afraid he oversimplifies and doesn't realize that it might have been quite a common thing to have, as it was during St. Constantine's time.

Really, this is your own word vs. a saints words.

This is why it is better to depend on the saints than our own words and interpretations.


Quote
Likewise for so-called "ultra-traditionalists."


Wow...Who do you mean by 'ultra-traditionalist'?  Something tells me that we differ in "opinion" on these matters.  We wouldn't mean stuff like, oh, I don't know...

The "good monks" in Esphigmenous, would "we"?

Quote
I only wanted to present to you a counter-argument from a Western pov.  It's called objectivity.  If you feel the need to dismiss it, go right ahead.  I really am not here to convince you if you're adamant about your position.  I only ask for you to do more research and be more open-minded.

Thank you, though in the end I see that we beg to differ, I am thankful to see an alternative view.

Quote
God bless you.

Many thanks for your well wishes, may God also help you in your struggles.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 04:13:18 AM by nyc_xenia » Logged
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« Reply #101 on: June 11, 2008, 11:29:08 AM »


Many thanks for your well wishes, may God also help you in your struggles.


Thank you.  That means a lot.  I'm sorry we can't see eye-to-eye on this.

Keep me in your prayers.

Mina
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« Reply #102 on: June 11, 2008, 10:42:28 PM »

Orthodox doesn't necessarily mean "of the Orthodox Church", because, by that definition, all heresies which arose in the Church would be "Orthodox".

Well, they are "Orthodox", in the sense that they are identified as such through the judgement of the Orthodox church. Only Protestants can, on their own, identify theology or whatever as being heretical. Likewise, as one of those DPs, I can only really identify a liturgy as Orthodox insofar as an Orthodox church so judges it.

That is what makes this kind of discussion innately unsatisfactory on one level. I can participate a discussion of the theological merits of a liturgy, but it really only works either in a Protestant "every man his own theologian"
framework, or as inconsequential discussion of no weight. I mean, depending on how seriously one is going to take this business of the church teaching, the only Orthodox statements that have authority are those that begin "my bishops say" and end with a citation, with points taken off for interpretation. Switching churches over disagreements with those bishops is the ur-Protestant act.
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« Reply #103 on: June 11, 2008, 11:04:43 PM »

In the search for the "real" Western Rite, we can go down two tracks:
"Real" means "authentic", but "authentic" what?

At this point I'm going to abandon neutrality and go for scripture and reality. I've heard a lot of liturgists go on about "authenticity" of rites for many, many years, and my skepticism over the concept is by now almost completely unassailable. The authenticity that really matters is that in the hearts of the worshipers; therefore, historical authenticity is of no value if it interferes with authentic worship. I am very much a traditionalist (where "tradition" in this case means "what we're already doing") but it's obvious to me that telling people what they mean by their acts of worship is illegitimate and as a rule self-serving. Thus the whole discussion about the authenticity of the Western Rite, particularly the Tikhonite liturgy, seems contrived. One can go on about "Sarum" unto ages of ages, but the rite is (and blatantly exists because it is) a modified Anglican rite in something of the same way that A-C missal rites are Catholicized versions of the more Protestant pre-1979 BCP rites. The real issue seems to be the degree to which Anglican and Roman converts have to abandon their previous history as Christians in order to become Orthodox. The Antiochian answer is that particularly in terms of liturgy they do not have to reject it utterly. The separatist answer, the Milanese answer, is that they have to start over from scratch. All specific theological criticism of the text of the rite is quite beside the point, because it can be fixed.
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« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2008, 11:24:33 PM »

At this point I'm going to abandon neutrality and go for scripture and reality. I've heard a lot of liturgists go on about "authenticity" of rites for many, many years, and my skepticism over the concept is by now almost completely unassailable. The authenticity that really matters is that in the hearts of the worshipers; therefore, historical authenticity is of no value if it interferes with authentic worship. I am very much a traditionalist (where "tradition" in this case means "what we're already doing")

You just hit a pet peeve.  I've heard people say "well, we traditionally have pews in our Church", "we traditionally don't fast on July 4," et cetera.

I think people seem to think that any "tradition" is good.  Where custom goes against Christ, the custom is to be removed. Problem with that thinking? It's St John Chrysostom.  Now I assume Protestants can make the same justification. But tradition proves them to be incorrect.

but it's obvious to me that telling people what they mean by their acts of worship is illegitimate and as a rule self-serving. Thus the whole discussion about the authenticity of the Western Rite, particularly the Tikhonite liturgy, seems contrived. One can go on about "Sarum" unto ages of ages, but the rite is (and blatantly exists because it is) a modified Anglican rite in something of the same way that A-C missal rites are Catholicized versions of the more Protestant pre-1979 BCP rites.

The Sarum rite as used by most of the jurisdictions who use it is pre-schism, the Antiochian being an exception. HOWEVER, if they were using that 14th c. liturgy I would have so much less to complain about, frankly, we wouldn't be talking about this.

The real issue seems to be the degree to which Anglican and Roman converts have to abandon their previous history as Christians in order to become Orthodox. The Antiochian answer is that particularly in terms of liturgy they do not have to reject it utterly. The separatist answer, the Milanese answer, is that they have to start over from scratch. All specific theological criticism of the text of the rite is quite beside the point, because it can be fixed.

The Antiochian answer is that they don't have to reject it AT ALL, but add a few "Orthodox phrases".

[/quote]
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 11:25:16 PM by Suaiden » Logged

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« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2008, 11:20:59 AM »

Oh great, another one claiming to be "True Orthodox".

Yeah...And?

Quote
How nice for you. You live your life according to an internet blog entry entitled "End Time Instructions".

Actually, the title of the blog is called "Orthodox Christian" @ http://orthodoxchristian.blogspot.com


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I see. So you equate your pronouncements here on OCnet as being equivalent to the Alpha and the Omega.


No, He is Who He is, the Truth.  I am who I am, a simple Orthodox Christian, aware of the many false teachings and innovations within "Orthodoxy".
   

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And as I tell people who try to be condescending- the only person you belittle is yourself by revealing your insecurity.

Actually, the insecurity I face in life has little to do with this or any forum.  That would be really sad if I (or anyone else) based anything on the flames and oppositions which are found on these forums, no? That said, I suppose we should keep such people (i.e. Megan Meier) in our prayers.
 
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You're doing it again! How can something be "outside the tradition of the Church" if the Church is practicing it?

I wish I could express the great sorrow that such a statement brings me.

The ecumenical movement is one example of those things "practiced' by some "Orthodox" in the world. The involvement of the Orthodox with other religions is wrong.  Just as it is also wrong to introduce innovations and present these counterfeits in the place of that which has been truly handed down to us.
 
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This is the same siege mentality and "faithful remnant" mentality found in any cult from Heavens Gate to Jonestown to Westboro Baptist Church. Which one of them is the true "faithful remnant"?

I'll get to that in a sec. First, let me point out that Christ Our God has the ability to restore that which was lost, my point is His will for our restoration. 

Next, I'm sorry, I don't want to drink the cool-aid, I don't own silver shoes, am not awaiting for a Mothership and in the end, I, like the rest of the Orthodox here simply hope to attain eternal salvation through Jesus Christ.

As for the "faithful remnant" thingy, we see the current situation where there are  divisions, schisms, innovations and apostasy from the true faith. How much "better" do you think this situation will be after a third of mankind has died by three plagues, and all except those whose names are written in the Book of Life have worshiped the Antichrist?

I shouldn't hope to see such days, but in the end when Christ returns, the "faithful remnant" will in fact be very small. Nevertheless, as God wills.
 
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Nothing. Live and let live I say. But when you come here and do not allow others to live by calling their practices "non-Orthodox", you should expect a fight.

I "do not allow others to LIVE?"   Goodness, that's bit of an overstatement, no?  It's just a forum, relax.

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So if your practices are nothing to me, then the AWR practices should expect the same from you. Oh, but I forgot- your Church is the sole harbinger of all truth.

Wow, I am so NOT the person to argue such things.  My point of view has nothing to do with "jurisdictional issues" and everything to do with preserving that which pertains to the truth and to that which is truly Orthodox.  My "Church" is not my "jurisdiction", that is erroneous thinking, it puts the "Bride" in a box, I refuse to do that.

The Church is both Militant and Triumphant, she is one, and goes beyond "jurisdictional' squabbles.

So, just to make that really clear, jurisdictional issues do not concern me, innovations and departing from the faith or watching any process of apostasy, does.


 
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Yup. Or may be they actually aren't so different. "My groups ideas are right and everyone else is wrong" is not such a unique claim in the world.

There you go again with the "box".  You seem to think this is a "click-thing", some "group" thinking. 

Well, I suppose if I have to be part of a "group", I would say it is Orthodox and leave it at that.  I only wish that others would leave it whole and uncompromised.

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And like heresies are often written. Or are you making the claim that an iconographer is automatically "Equal-to-the-Evangelists"?

Hmm, you know, you have quite a s-t-r-e-t-c-h of an imagination.  Where do you get such far fetched conclusions from anyway? 

What I am saying is that icons are done by hand and other than depicting the saints, they teach theological truths by means of images instead of words.

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Well, thanks for visiting the real world. I hope you decide to stay.

I live in the real world, however, it is my intension to continue (with God's help and grace) to abstain from all forms of innovation and compromise with regards to my faith.




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« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2008, 11:31:03 AM »

Oh great, another one claiming to be "True Orthodox".

Residuum revertetur
in their eyes, I suppose.
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« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2008, 01:38:00 PM »

You just hit a pet peeve.  I've heard people say "well, we traditionally have pews in our Church", "we traditionally don't fast on July 4," et cetera.

Well, at the Ukrainian cathedral down the road from me, they do have pews. It's not up to me-- and and I am inclined to think, not up to you either-- to decry this. When you say that "Where custom goes against Christ, the custom is to be removed,", the hyperbole is quite loud. I am absolutely sure that Jesus didn't say anything about pews, so it isn't Christ this might be against, but Church. The reading and interpretation of scripture and tradition belongs, in Orthodoxy, to the church, not to you nor me. Even Chrysostom is subject to interpretation within the church; he cannot simply be invoked by any passing disputant.

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The Sarum rite as used by most of the jurisdictions who use it is pre-schism, the Antiochian being an exception. HOWEVER, if they were using that 14th c. liturgy I would have so much less to complain about, frankly, we wouldn't be talking about this.

Nobody is really using that liturgy-- or rather, the use of that liturgy is brought about through archaeology, not through tradition. That's one of the problems with modern Anglican liturgies: people have taken to "recovering" ancient practices by mining them from old texts, though they cannot really see the context in which they originally appeared. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't; but the whole exercise is one of rationalization. That's why using an old Sarum rite is even more of an innovation than adapting the BCP rite-- any BCP rite, for that matter.

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The Antiochian answer is that they don't have to reject it AT ALL, but add a few "Orthodox phrases".

Um, no. That is not their answer, but your spin. I've looked at the modified epiclesis, and it's more than just the addition of a few "phrases". Perhaps the number of words changed was few, but the prayer has been (clumsily) modified to require a substantial change theory of communion, and to bar other real presence understandings of the sacrament. Your implication that the changes merely amounted to giving a little Orthodox color just isn't accurate; what was produced is a rite that plenty of Anglicans would object to (though not so many as would have objected back in Tikhon's day).
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« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2008, 08:04:43 PM »


Residuum revertetur
in their eyes, I suppose.

Let God judge that.

Measure for measure, I always say.
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« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2008, 03:33:56 PM »

The Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese has determined that the appropriate form of iconography for Western Rite Churches is the Romanesque Art of the Medieval Western Church.
http://www.stcolumbachurch.org/icon_details.html


Note statues. St Augustine Church, Denver, Colorado.


Our Lady of Walsingham Chapel with Statue. St Mark's Church Denver.


From the Photo Album of St Michael Antiochian Church, Whittier, CA.  Note in Picture #5 there is also a statue behind the celebrants.

While I have no photo, one parish in Miami (I've seen with my eyes) also has statues.  Others do too.

So I am not quite sure what to think of the AWRV's pronouncement, if they are being honest, or maybe they just think statues are part of Romanesque iconography.
These western rite pic are beautiful. I especially love the altar!
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« Reply #110 on: October 17, 2008, 03:35:57 PM »

That's not Our Lady of Lourdes. It's a Hodegetria.

That is NOT a Hodegetria.


A Hodegetria guides the viewer to Christ with the right hand. She is in fact holding Christ in the statue.



A Statue of the Hodegetria can be found here:


But you are right about one thing. That statue at St Michael is not Our Lady of Lourdes. Looks like a typical Roman Catholic Mary statue without a crown actually.
Are there any Eastern Orthodox images of Mary wearing a crown, as she is the queen of heaven?
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« Reply #111 on: October 17, 2008, 03:40:20 PM »

The Orthodox statues do not depict suffering of Christ compared to the 14 Stations of the Cross where each Station depicts Christ's suffering in 3D.
What's wrong with having images of something that really happened in the life of Christ? Especially because St. Paul tells us that we die with Christ and even says that he bears the stigma of Christ in his flesh? Should we not rejoice in the suffering that conforms us to Christ's likeness?
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« Reply #112 on: October 17, 2008, 07:17:53 PM »

Papist, may I offer the following comment:

Western religious art, particularly that from the Renaissance and Gothic period, almost always emphasises the human suffering of Christ at His passion. This is no accident, as, from about the 12th C onwards, the focus of religious devotion in the west gradually changed from dispassionate to passionate expressions, be they in art, music and singing, or the active seeking of particular types of “religious experiences”. A new emphasis was being placed on emotions in spiritual life, resulting in such phenomena as stigmata. This phenomenon was, and continues to be, frequently reported in the west, but is practically unknown in the Orthodox world. Another result was the central emphasis of the Crucifixion (Death) of Christ supplanting that of the Resurrection. In popular devotion, Christ was depicted more and more as a suffering fellow man, rather than as God Incarnate. Perhaps the most stark and uncompromising artwork of this type is the Isenheim Altarpiece painted by the 16th C Gothic artist Matthias Grünewald.

By contrast, Orthodox iconography depicts the passion and crucifixion of Christ in far more dispassionate terms, as it does any of its subject matter. Taking the Crucifixion as an example: We do not see a ravaged, tortured body on the cross, but Christ willingly offering himself as sacrifice for the salvation of the world, and, even in death, triumphant over death and sin. His human life has ended, but He remains God. His divinity is not diminished. There is little blood, Christ’s bodily wounds are confined to the marks of the nails, and the pierced side. Even the crown of thorns is absent, and the inscription above His head reads The King of Glory, not Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews (the latter usually abbreviated to its Latin acronym INRI).

The content of an icon is not intended to force an emotional response. There is a conscious avoidance of movement or theatrical gesture. The faces of participants in the scene are rarely expressive of their feelings at the time as we might imagine them, but suggest virtues - purity, patience in suffering, forgiveness, compassion and love. In crucifixion icons, the physical pain Christ endured on the cross is not shown; the icon reveals what led Him to the cross, the free action of giving His life for others. There is no superficial or exaggerated drama.

Similarly, the Virgin and Apostle John are grief-stricken, but their posture and gestures are restrained yet powerful. The emotion is in the eyes, and the Virgin has her right hand pointing to the crucified Christ in the same way as she does in her icons with the Christ-child. Her posture and gestures also echo hymnody from the Matins of Holy Saturday, sung on Great Friday evening. This is but one verse from this service:

O my Son and my God, though I am wounded to the core and torn to the heart as I see You dead, yet confident in Your resurrection, I magnify You.

In the midst of death and despair, there is the anticipation, the great hope of the Resurrection.

It is also worth looking at the liturgical references to the Passion. The events of Christ’s betrayal, passion and crucifixion are commemorated at the Matins of Great Friday, sung on Holy Thursday evening. In Orthodox tradition, there must be complete harmony and correspondence between iconographic content and that of liturgical hymnody and scripture; liturgical content also represents the distillation of what the Church teaches and espouses on that particular feast or commemoration. While Judas Iscariot and the members of the Sanhedrin are certainly described as treacherous, lawless, greedy ingrates, the other theme permeating the hymnody is the willingness and equanimity with which Christ accepted His suffering and death, out of His boundless compassion for mankind. In addition, the Gospel readings pertaining to Christ’s time in the garden of Gethsemane are from Matthew and Mark, not the more graphic one of Luke (which has, among other motifs, the imagery of His sweat falling to the ground “like great drops of blood”). Perhaps the liturgist fathers found the imagery of the other Gospels sufficient in illustrating the human suffering of Christ so as not to unbalance the emphasis between His human and divine natures. Interestingly, the non-Gospel hymnody does not even mention the events of “the agony in the garden”, perhaps for the same reason.

Consider the iconography of martyr-saints, such as St Ignatius the God-bearer being attacked by lions in the arena, or the stoning of Protomartyr Stephen: Martyr-saints are not shown in throes of physical agony, but, more importantly, in complete submission to their fate, and anticipation of their coming heavenly life. An icon is a spiritual depiction, not a naturalistic one. Therefore, any iconographic depiction of scenes of the passion of Christ, including His betrayal and crucifixion, should be free from any histrionics or grand displays of emotion.

Hope this helps. You're welcome to PM me if you want more info.
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« Reply #113 on: March 10, 2009, 01:51:23 PM »

To add to the praxis something like statues in a Western style liturgy is nothing more than accommodating to the culture of Western people.
I agree, and I think it could be argued that this is much more honestly "Western Rite" than simply trying to resurrect long abandoned liturgies. The Church meets people where they are now, not where they were 1000 years ago.

Then, adopting the Vatican II liturgy would not be wrong so long as it is edited for heretical items? Nor there isn't anything particularly "religious" about Elizabethan English, is there?

Hank
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« Reply #114 on: March 10, 2009, 06:03:21 PM »

To add to the praxis something like statues in a Western style liturgy is nothing more than accommodating to the culture of Western people.
I agree, and I think it could be argued that this is much more honestly "Western Rite" than simply trying to resurrect long abandoned liturgies. The Church meets people where they are now, not where they were 1000 years ago.

Then, adopting the Vatican II liturgy would not be wrong so long as it is edited for heretical items? Nor there isn't anything particularly "religious" about Elizabethan English, is there?

Hank

Technically, YES.

I remember some of the first Coptic people in the lands of immigration decided to use Elizabethan English to translate our liturgies, prayer books, and hymns.  I don't know what they were thinking.  I guess, they used the King James Version too much, or maybe some religious movies at the time used Elizabethan English.
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« Reply #115 on: March 10, 2009, 06:54:40 PM »

I could never see why the Orthodox Church would want to adopt a more modern liturgy. Most Roman Catholics I know want to revert to their older liturgy, and I don't blame them. The old Western Liturgy is not extinct, and many Roman Catholics still practice it.

The Orthodox liturgy has largely been the same for well over a thousand years (except for individual parishes making their own edits), and their is no practical reason we need to change it other than language. Why does it all of a sudden become irrelevant in our time, when for most of Christian history it's always been used the same? I have to admit this can't be argued logically, but an unchanged liturgy is also a good evangelistic tool.
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« Reply #116 on: March 10, 2009, 08:37:04 PM »

Nor there isn't anything particularly "religious" about Elizabethan English, is there?

Hank

When you mention "Elizabethan English" do you mean the King James Version or something else? 
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« Reply #117 on: March 11, 2009, 07:27:48 AM »

Nor there isn't anything particularly "religious" about Elizabethan English, is there?

Hank

When you mention "Elizabethan English" do you mean the King James Version or something else? 

Elizabethan and King James English are commonly used interchangeably. They are from the same era, c.1580 to 1620.
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« Reply #118 on: March 11, 2009, 11:34:34 AM »

Nor there isn't anything particularly "religious" about Elizabethan English, is there?

Hank

When you mention "Elizabethan English" do you mean the King James Version or something else? 

Elizabethan and King James English are commonly used interchangeably. They are from the same era, c.1580 to 1620.
Yes, sometimes it's called Shakespearean English for the same reason, as he wrote during that same time period. In fact, it survives to the present day mainly because of the importance of Shakespeare and the King James Bible in English literature.
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« Reply #119 on: March 11, 2009, 12:55:04 PM »

Are there any Eastern Orthodox images of Mary wearing a crown, as she is the queen of heaven?


Very many indeed.  Here are some examples:

Russian icon
Macedonian icon
Ethiopian icon
Arab icon
English icon
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« Reply #120 on: March 11, 2009, 12:58:05 PM »

Papist, may I offer the following comment:
...
Hope this helps.


Excellent post, LBK!
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« Reply #121 on: March 11, 2009, 01:16:37 PM »

There are sections of the 1979 BCP (particularly in the collects and additional prayers) where the older language has been very minimally updated, primarily by eliminating the second person familiar and by updating some archaic word choices. The result is some very strong material. Of course, if archaicism is to be worn as a badge of honor, even this small change has to be set aside.

Part of the reason that people might prefer older versions of the Roman rite is that the current NO English is simply terrible. Even the worst sections of the 1979 BCP are better. There really needs to be a step below "pedestrian" to describe it.
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« Reply #122 on: March 11, 2009, 01:19:14 PM »

Are there any Eastern Orthodox images of Mary wearing a crown, as she is the queen of heaven?


Very many indeed.  Here are some examples:

Russian icon
Macedonian icon
Ethiopian icon
Arab icon
English icon

Well, the last one is Our Lady of Walsingham-- that's an appropriation of a western image. The others seem mostly modern; one wonders whether the crown is therefore also imported.
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« Reply #123 on: March 11, 2009, 04:55:11 PM »

Are there any Eastern Orthodox images of Mary wearing a crown, as she is the queen of heaven?


Very many indeed.  Here are some examples:

Russian icon
Macedonian icon
Ethiopian icon
Arab icon
English icon

Well, the last one is Our Lady of Walsingham-- that's an appropriation of a western image. The others seem mostly modern; one wonders whether the crown is therefore also imported.


Yes, Keble, the crown on the Mother of God's head is a western "import". There is no need for her to wear a crown in her icons.
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« Reply #124 on: March 11, 2009, 05:08:32 PM »

Yes, Keble, the crown on the Mother of God's head is a western "import". There is no need for her to wear a crown in her icons.

But there is a "need" for her to where an imperial robe?
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« Reply #125 on: March 11, 2009, 05:29:56 PM »

Well, the last one is Our Lady of Walsingham-- that's an appropriation of a western image. The others seem mostly modern; one wonders whether the crown is therefore also imported.


A Coptic icon in Cairo:




^This icon does not strike me in the least as being "modern."  The time period it appears to be from was a time when the Islamic government of Egypt was extremely oppressive of the Egyptian Christians (Copts), who were forced to live very underground lives in close tight-knit circles of friends and family.  Are we to say that the sole reason Mary has a crown in this Coptic icon is because it was a popular practice in Western Europe, even though the cultural interaction between the regions of Islam and Western Europe were (until very recently) extremely miniscule?  The concept of a Royal Crown has existed throughout the world since before the time of Christ. 

Obviously, it isn't a requirement that Mary or Christ wear crowns in an icon.  But I don't understand the need to say that if there is a crown present then it must be due to Western European influence.
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« Reply #126 on: March 11, 2009, 05:59:54 PM »

The orb held by the Christ-child is most definitely western in origin. The Coptic icon is very likely of no earlier than 18thC vintage, and most likely 19thC.
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« Reply #127 on: March 11, 2009, 09:14:12 PM »

The Coptic icon is very likely of no earlier than 18thC vintage, and most likely 19thC.


The last Caliphate of Islam was not officially abolished until 1924… well into the 20th century.  And this was only the beginning of a very slow and tedious process which still continues to unfold today.
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« Reply #128 on: March 11, 2009, 11:17:17 PM »

Greek icon:

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« Reply #129 on: March 11, 2009, 11:37:04 PM »

The orb held by the Christ-child is most definitely western in origin.

Why so?  The orb has been used since Imperial Roman times.  Victoria instead of a cross atop, of course.  Or do you just mean its inclusion in artwork/iconography?
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« Reply #130 on: March 12, 2009, 01:58:43 AM »

Ummm...so what if it was Western influenced?  Does all things Western equal evil or unnecessary?
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« Reply #131 on: March 12, 2009, 03:43:31 AM »

Ummm...so what if it was Western influenced?  Does all things Western equal evil or unnecessary?

No, the Orthodox Church does not reject anything from other traditions if these things are in keeping with the mind of the Church. But orbs and sceptres, which denote earthly, temporal power, have no place in icons, particularly those of Christ or the Mother of God. Christ's kingdom is not of this world, therefore such motifs, and this includes crowns on His and His Mother's heads, should have no place in icons.
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« Reply #132 on: March 12, 2009, 01:46:01 PM »

No, the Orthodox Church does not reject anything from other traditions if these things are in keeping with the mind of the Church. But orbs and sceptres, which denote earthly, temporal power, have no place in icons, particularly those of Christ or the Mother of God. Christ's kingdom is not of this world, therefore such motifs, and this includes crowns on His and His Mother's heads, should have no place in icons.

So you disapprove of this image?

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« Reply #133 on: March 12, 2009, 05:00:56 PM »

Ummm...so what if it was Western influenced?  Does all things Western equal evil or unnecessary?

No, the Orthodox Church does not reject anything from other traditions if these things are in keeping with the mind of the Church. But orbs and sceptres, which denote earthly, temporal power, have no place in icons, particularly those of Christ or the Mother of God. Christ's kingdom is not of this world, therefore such motifs, and this includes crowns on His and His Mother's heads, should have no place in icons.

But it's okay to put crowns on bishops and patriarchs?
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« Reply #134 on: March 12, 2009, 05:44:31 PM »

That is a bishop's mitre on Christ's head, not a king's crown.
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