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Author Topic: Western rite Icons  (Read 41143 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #135 on: March 12, 2009, 05:51:34 PM »

That is a bishop's mitre on Christ's head, not a king's crown.

I was under the impression that the "mitres" seen today on some patriarchs came into use after the fall of the Byzantine Empire.  Basically, they started wearing imperial crowns after the emperor went away.



Were not "true" mitres originally turbans, and from there developed into various other states?
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« Reply #136 on: March 13, 2009, 01:48:20 AM »

That is a bishop's mitre on Christ's head, not a king's crown.

Mitres are imperial crowns, directly from influence of imperial government.
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« Reply #137 on: March 13, 2009, 05:22:55 AM »

@Alveus Lacuna: it's presbiter's mitre, not bishop's
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« Reply #138 on: March 13, 2009, 04:45:38 PM »

I thought mitres were derived from turbans, mitres are even prescribed for priests in Exodus (though at that time they were probably just turbans).
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« Reply #139 on: March 14, 2009, 01:01:26 AM »

I thought mitres were derived from turbans, mitres are even prescribed for priests in Exodus (though at that time they were probably just turbans).

A turban decorated with gold?  And purple robes?  In context, the elaborate nature alludes to some sort of kingship, resembling as I have been told the image of Divine royalty.

Did OT priests wear golden turbans and elaborate robes?
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« Reply #140 on: March 14, 2009, 01:03:03 AM »

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A turban decorated with gold?  And purple robes?  In context, the elaborate nature alludes to some sort of kingship, resembling as I have been told the image of Divine royalty.

Perhaps the emperor further evolved the mitre. I don't deny that some Orthodox vestments are derived from the emperor.
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« Reply #141 on: March 14, 2009, 07:24:43 PM »

Elizabethan and King James English are commonly used interchangeably. They are from the same era, c.1580 to 1620.

Well, just to be pedantic Elizabeth I reigned from 1558 to 1603, while James I and VI ruled in England from 1603 to 1625.  Wink

As Ytterb. wrote it may also be called Shakespearean English and it has survived to this day because of the plays and the King James Version of the Bible which have both beauty and dignity is how the language is used.  So it may not be "religious" but it is very well written, perhaps that is why it is still used in some times and places.  Even my own father who is not a church-goer admires the KJV for its language.

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« Reply #142 on: March 14, 2009, 08:14:21 PM »

Quote
A turban decorated with gold?  And purple robes?  In context, the elaborate nature alludes to some sort of kingship, resembling as I have been told the image of Divine royalty.

Perhaps the emperor further evolved the mitre. I don't deny that some Orthodox vestments are derived from the emperor.

Assuming, the emperor evolved the mitre, we as Orthodox still copied the golden mitre, and not the white mitre of the OT.

I don't mean to argue against you, but the original question on the iconography of Christ is just ridiculous.  We're arguing about whether placing a crown on the Lord or not based on some sort of Western influence?  And yet we forget to examine ourselves.
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« Reply #143 on: March 14, 2009, 11:02:38 PM »

I thought mitres were derived from turbans, mitres are even prescribed for priests in Exodus (though at that time they were probably just turbans).

A turban decorated with gold?  And purple robes?  In context, the elaborate nature alludes to some sort of kingship, resembling as I have been told the image of Divine royalty.

Did OT priests wear golden turbans and elaborate robes?
Yes, and tradition is explicit that SS. James the Brother of God and John the Theologian did too (the mitre that is).
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« Reply #144 on: March 15, 2009, 02:42:15 AM »

I thought mitres were derived from turbans, mitres are even prescribed for priests in Exodus (though at that time they were probably just turbans).

A turban decorated with gold?  And purple robes?  In context, the elaborate nature alludes to some sort of kingship, resembling as I have been told the image of Divine royalty.

Did OT priests wear golden turbans and elaborate robes?
Yes, and tradition is explicit that SS. James the Brother of God and John the Theologian did too (the mitre that is).

Really?  I honestly thought it was white.  Do you know where I can read some sources for this?
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« Reply #145 on: March 21, 2009, 03:50:48 PM »

In order for Western Orthodoxy to succeed Education is required.
What I see is a wave of profound ignorance about 1st millenium latin christianity.
There is no other option but to read books and study it at our churches or setup institutes for this purpose. Not with any intentions of creating chaos or liturgical free for all but for busy bishops to genuinely guide in careful moderation.

I highly recommend to you all to attempt to read some of these books listed below before posting further about this topic of images in the western orthodox church.

There is no evidence of plastic 3 dimensional high relief statuary before the late 900's and no significant use of it before the 1100's and the gothic movement emananting from the university at paris in the beginning of the "scholasticism" period began the birth of the humanistic greco-roman pagan renaissance of its day traveling eventually to other western latin universities and churches. Eventually this culminated in Giotto and the beginnings of secular (not sacred) "art history" as we know it.
 
There is a certain Orthodox priest named Fr. Michael Keiser who makes incorrect claims that Hagia Sophia was filled with 3 dimensional high relief statuary which was later destroyed by iconocloasts in the 700's and that at one point there were as many statues used in byzantine churches of the 1st millenium as the latin church used by the late gothic period of middle 2nd millenium. There is no evidence to support this. Many ideas along these lines are essentially mythes to support more modern practices of the western rite "orthodox" and heterodox. 

(see links: http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/faith_and_spirituality/watch/v10798569HDqh8Yc6

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/faith_and_spirituality/watch/v10798569HDqh8Yc6#watch%3Dv70613013eFRNhtA)

     Because the Eastern Churches have been theologically conservative for so long the developments that take place in them are less suspect, whereas those occuring in the separated western catholic or protestant churches are because of their long departure from tradition are in need of guidance and correction and exposure to their own past which was to large degree in harmony with the east, despite its more primitive qualities. One can not excuse keeping the trappings of present day as a form of inculturation an 11th century frequently latin cleric would not recognize it as the church they knew.


Devotions such eucharistic adoration and the Stations of the cross are largely a product of the 17th and 18th century counter-reformation and incentives for indulgences. They were the will of the hierarchy not the people. One can very clearly see this from a book such as:

"Regulating the people; the Catholic Reformation in 17th-century Spain" by Allyson M Poska

 They did not occur in an manner approved of by Orthodox Christianity.

"The erection of the Stations in churches did not become at all common until towards the end of the seventeenth century, and the popularity of the practice seems to have been chiefly due to the indulgences attached. "

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15569a.htm

In time the Orthodox of the future will look back on these days with much surprise at the ideas held in late 20th century western orthodox churches.


1ST MILLENIUM LATIN RITE REVIVAL
SACRED ART & ARCHITECTURE:

#01 Likeness and Presence; A History of the Image before the Era of Art by Hans Belting (SPECTULAR!)
#02 Byzantine Art and the West (The Wrightsman lectures) by Otto Demus (1970)
#03 The Pictorial Arts of the West, 800-1200 by C.R. Dodwell
#04 Iconography of Christian Art by Gertrud Schiller (1971 New York Graphic Society)
#05 Ars Sacra 800-1200 by Peter Lasko
#06 Romanesque Wall Painting in Central France The Politics of Narrative by Marcia Kupfer (1993)
#07 Pre-Romanesque Art by Harald Busch, Bernd Lohse (1966 or newer)
#08 Art In the Early Church by Walter Lowrie
#09 Romanesque Sculpture; The Revival of Monumental Stone Sculpture in the 11th and 12th Centuries by M. F. Hearn
#10 Carolingian and Romanesque Architecture, 800 to 1200 by Kenneth John Conant
Christian Pilgrimage In Modern Western Europe by Mary Lee & Sidney Nolan; (chapter 6, page 160)

additional books:
Early Christian Iconography and A School of Ivory Carvers in Provence by Earl Baldwin (1918)

The miniatures in the Gospels of St. Augustine by Francis Wormald

Early Christian and Byzantine Architecture: Fourth Edition by Richard Krautheimer, Slobodan Ćurčić


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« Reply #146 on: May 27, 2009, 03:25:24 AM »

Ummm...so what if it was Western influenced?  Does all things Western equal evil or unnecessary?

No, the Orthodox Church does not reject anything from other traditions if these things are in keeping with the mind of the Church. But orbs and sceptres, which denote earthly, temporal power, have no place in icons, particularly those of Christ or the Mother of God. Christ's kingdom is not of this world, therefore such motifs, and this includes crowns on His and His Mother's heads, should have no place in icons.
How about this?
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« Reply #147 on: March 30, 2010, 03:30:07 PM »

That is a bishop's mitre on Christ's head, not a king's crown.

There are icons of Christ wearing what is clearly an imperial-style crown, not a bishop's mitre. The caption for the first image, in which Christ wears a king's crown and what appears to be a bishop's omophorion, reads "The King of Kings and Great High Priest." Christ is both King and High Priest. (Of course, his Kingdom is not of this world; however, it is the ultimate reality to which the earthly kingdoms point.)

Notice also in the 3rd image the beads that hang from the crown (which in this case is like a bishop's mitre).These are very similar to what we see on Byzantine emperors (image 4).

This picture shows a secular ruler wearing something similar to an omophorion: http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/zgothic/mosaics/12c/6palermo.html
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« Reply #148 on: March 30, 2010, 04:28:07 PM »

Quote
This picture shows a secular ruler wearing something similar to an omophorion: http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/zgothic/mosaics/12c/6palermo.html

The ruler is wearing a dalmatic, and this is typical dress of Byzantine nobility. Nothing to do with clerical vestments.
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« Reply #149 on: March 30, 2010, 04:40:30 PM »

But aren't the Bishop's miter and vestments based on Roman imperial attire? Doesn't that already establish an analogy with temporal power, even if it isn't literal?

Speaking of orbs, the Archangel Gabriel often holds a sphere with initials of Christ on it. Does anyone know what this object is called and whence it comes?
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« Reply #150 on: March 30, 2010, 04:42:39 PM »

Speaking of orbs, the Archangel Gabriel often holds a sphere with initials of Christ on it. Does anyone know what this object is called and whence it comes?

I always assumed it was a globe, meaning He rules the entire world, or encompasses the entire cosmos.
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« Reply #151 on: March 30, 2010, 05:46:51 PM »

Quote
This picture shows a secular ruler wearing something similar to an omophorion: http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/zgothic/mosaics/12c/6palermo.html

The ruler is wearing a dalmatic, and this is typical dress of Byzantine nobility. Nothing to do with clerical vestments.

Yes, a dalmatic, another imperial garment that became a vestment, with a lorum over it, the imperial garment that became the omophorion.

The mitre, omophorion, dalmatic, sakkos, epimanika, and epigonation, all started as imperial vesture just as the remaining vestments were once the garb of the Roman upper class that the church retained after they fell out of fashion.
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« Reply #152 on: March 30, 2010, 09:00:40 PM »

Speaking of orbs, the Archangel Gabriel often holds a sphere with initials of Christ on it. Does anyone know what this object is called and whence it comes?

I always assumed it was a globe, meaning He rules the entire world, or encompasses the entire cosmos.

Its a disk showing the Name of Christ in cipher or His Image. A King's envoy, messenger or anyone acting in their name bears the insignia of the King to show in whose name they are coming. We actually still practice this in Monarchies today. Police badges in England for instance bear the cipher for the name of the reigning monarch ("EIIR"- for "Elizabeth II Regina"):

Similarly, the Archangel Gabriel in his Icons is showing the Insignia of his King in Whose Name he is acting.
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« Reply #153 on: March 31, 2010, 03:57:35 PM »

But aren't the Bishop's miter and vestments based on Roman imperial attire? Doesn't that already establish an analogy with temporal power, even if it isn't literal?

Yes.
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« Reply #154 on: March 31, 2010, 03:59:41 PM »

Quote
This picture shows a secular ruler wearing something similar to an omophorion: http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/zgothic/mosaics/12c/6palermo.html

The ruler is wearing a dalmatic, and this is typical dress of Byzantine nobility. Nothing to do with clerical vestments.

Yes, a dalmatic, another imperial garment that became a vestment, with a lorum over it, the imperial garment that became the omophorion.

The mitre, omophorion, dalmatic, sakkos, epimanika, and epigonation, all started as imperial vesture just as the remaining vestments were once the garb of the Roman upper class that the church retained after they fell out of fashion.

Thank you!
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« Reply #155 on: March 31, 2010, 04:11:55 PM »

Quote
This picture shows a secular ruler wearing something similar to an omophorion: http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/zgothic/mosaics/12c/6palermo.html

The ruler is wearing a dalmatic, and this is typical dress of Byzantine nobility. Nothing to do with clerical vestments.

Yes, a dalmatic, another imperial garment that became a vestment, with a lorum over it, the imperial garment that became the omophorion.

The mitre, omophorion, dalmatic, sakkos, epimanika, and epigonation, all started as imperial vesture just as the remaining vestments were once the garb of the Roman upper class that the church retained after they fell out of fashion.

Thank you!

I'd just qualify that by saying that the dalmatic -- and many other such items -- was not "imperial." It was part of a normal outfit, including those worn by the lower classes on special occasions. For the most part, the major difference between "imperial" vesture and general fashion was the quality of the fabric and the nature of the thread, i.e. the Emperor, nobility, senior clergy, merchants, etc. had a dalmatic made with gold thread. As soon as a new style was introduced at court, it spread to the streets (and the church).
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« Reply #156 on: July 26, 2010, 10:54:46 AM »

Her left.
"Do whatever He tells you."

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because a cursory search of Jesus and Mary statues would show that your statue, like a typical Roman Catholic statue, simply has her placing her hand over his stomach. She is not pointing, as her hand is pressed against that stomach, unless she is doing it with the top fingers, which still destroys the type; for example this one she holds Him with both hands, but I guess it could be her right hand (or is it her left?) pointing.



But you can imagine she's pointing if you wish, and imagine it with whichever hand you choose.

Let the viewer decide.

By the way, is Santa Claus wearing his own type on this little pic from the same site?


LOL!  my mom got me one of those car medallions that Santa' wearing for my birthday! 
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« Reply #157 on: August 03, 2010, 12:38:38 AM »


And with that, I totally give up.  That is NOT a "Western Orthodox statue". It is a typical statue found in Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches, never having been found in a Western Orthodox Church before the schism.  Where it was found (before the statue joined the Vicariate, of course) was in Roman and Anglican Churches, the former which I had seen throughout my childhood.

You can call it an apple all day long, but it's still an orange, or in this case, a post-schism Western statue.  But I will never convince you.  And you-- because of my having grown from a typical visual childhood in Roman Catholicism (we *owned* a statue like that in my house) until I converted to Orthodoxy in my 20's-- will never convince me that the statue in that pic is anything but a typical Roman or Anglican statue, of recent style.

The reason you might think that of course is because all the pre-schism western church artifacts were appropriated by the Roman and Anglican groups, think about it... Of course, in the British Isles the Protestants destroyed as many things they could but the statues of Our lady of Ipswich, Our Lady of Walsingham, Our Lady of Cardigan and numerous others - though now only represented by reconstructions, were statues.

I have no particular feeling about this other than I am in an Eastern Rite church so I wouldn't venerate a statue, but really, do you think there were no statues in the west before the schism?
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« Reply #158 on: August 03, 2010, 01:00:10 AM »

It must be noted that the Pope of Rome did not sign off on the canons of the Quinisext Council of 692, several centuries before the schism. This goes a long way in explaining why statues are still profuse in western worship and devotion, and absent in Orthodox worship and devotion.
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