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Author Topic: Orthodox Communion and Celiac Disease ?  (Read 13454 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: May 02, 2013, 04:43:00 PM »

I would also point out that the virtue of the fact that Quinalt has multiple children for whom she has demonstrably (on OC.net) made incredible sacrifices for in the past (and, presumably, in the future) is proof positive that she's following Christ's command to deny oneself and take up one's cross.
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« Reply #91 on: May 02, 2013, 05:35:14 PM »

http://www.frpeterpreble.com/2010/03/communion-and-sickness.html

This article says that your faith makes all the difference, and so do many other sources I am finding. I would be curious to find out more about this issue.

I am surprised Fr. Peter would write such a ridiculous statement.  We are not snakehandlers.  Yes the bread and wine are changed to the Body and Blood of Christ.  Yet they continue to look, smell, taste, and behave like bread and wine.  We eat them and digest them.  How is the Body and Blood of Christ subject to digestion?  Left long enough the Body will mold.  There are directions in Liturgicons about what to do when this happens.  Celiacs are affected by the gluten in bread and those with Sulfite allergy are affected by sulfites in wine.  Why?  I don't know.  If we can accept that the Gifts are subject to things like mold we should be able to wrap or heads around those with allergies are affected and need accomodation not condemnation.
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« Reply #92 on: May 02, 2013, 05:37:45 PM »

And my point of view is that if your faith can't survive the possibility that the gluten in the lamb can cause damage to a celiac, then *your* faith isn't very strong. I have made the phosphora before. I know what goes into it Wink I can completely have faith in all the stories of communicable diseases that aren't spread via the common cup. I don't think that communion can/will make one sick in that way. But ultimately that phosphora is made from wheat, I know I have made it before Wink
Quinault,

From what I read, you are an amazing mother.  God bless, carry on and don't let the dopes upset you.  Just find a priest who isn't a dope.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #93 on: May 03, 2013, 12:07:08 AM »

OK then. I truly hope you are never in the situation that I am in. But I am positive that if you were, you would understand it isn't as simple as you believe it to be right now.

Like I said, you can do baby steps. Take one half, and then one day take the other when you are ready for that step. Remember, one half means you are half-saved.

Dude, stop.
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« Reply #94 on: May 03, 2013, 12:55:16 AM »

And my point of view is that if your faith can't survive the possibility that the gluten in the lamb can cause damage to a celiac, then *your* faith isn't very strong. I have made the phosphora before. I know what goes into it Wink I can completely have faith in all the stories of communicable diseases that aren't spread via the common cup. I don't think that communion can/will make one sick in that way. But ultimately that phosphora is made from wheat, I know I have made it before Wink
Quinault,

From what I read, you are an amazing mother.  God bless, carry on and don't let the dopes upset you.  Just find a priest who isn't a dope.

Fr. Deacon Lance



I heartily agree. If one's priest is not willing to work with one's celiac disease, one should find a new priest.
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« Reply #95 on: May 03, 2013, 03:11:18 AM »

http://www.frpeterpreble.com/2010/03/communion-and-sickness.html

This article says that your faith makes all the difference, and so do many other sources I am finding. I would be curious to find out more about this issue.

I am surprised Fr. Peter would write such a ridiculous statement.  We are not snakehandlers.  Yes the bread and wine are changed to the Body and Blood of Christ.  Yet they continue to look, smell, taste, and behave like bread and wine.  We eat them and digest them.  How is the Body and Blood of Christ subject to digestion?  Left long enough the Body will mold.  There are directions in Liturgicons about what to do when this happens.  Celiacs are affected by the gluten in bread and those with Sulfite allergy are affected by sulfites in wine.  Why?  I don't know.  If we can accept that the Gifts are subject to things like mold we should be able to wrap or heads around those with allergies are affected and need accomodation not condemnation.

They do not remain bread and wine, but in the shape of bread and wine. The Orthodox belief is that they are truly the actual Blood and Body of Christ (in the shape of bread and wine). For that reason, they behave like a miracle for those who have the right faith and make themselves worthy of receiving them. To say that you have allergy to the bread in them is the same as saying you have allergy to the Body of Christ, and this can only be because of sin. I have discussed about how sin can influence your experience of The Eucharist. If you take things personally and think it's too harsh, that to me is proof that you are indeed subject to the mysteries not working for you. Please, do not attack me for simply saying the truth. I am not any better than anybody here, only striving to be better.
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« Reply #96 on: May 03, 2013, 05:26:48 AM »

http://www.frpeterpreble.com/2010/03/communion-and-sickness.html

This article says that your faith makes all the difference, and so do many other sources I am finding. I would be curious to find out more about this issue.

Fr. Preble quotes OrthodoxWiki as an authority. What has happened to the world?
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« Reply #97 on: May 03, 2013, 05:31:20 AM »

http://www.frpeterpreble.com/2010/03/communion-and-sickness.html

This article says that your faith makes all the difference, and so do many other sources I am finding. I would be curious to find out more about this issue.

Fr. Preble quotes OrthodoxWiki as an authority. What has happened to the world?

Now, orthodoxwiki is the enemy. People will use as source things they might agree with.
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« Reply #98 on: May 05, 2013, 12:42:36 PM »

They do not remain bread and wine, but in the shape of bread and wine. The Orthodox belief is that they are truly the actual Blood and Body of Christ (in the shape of bread and wine). For that reason, they behave like a miracle for those who have the right faith and make themselves worthy of receiving them. To say that you have allergy to the bread in them is the same as saying you have allergy to the Body of Christ, and this can only be because of sin.

The very fact that you are here to say this, casts doubt on your theory.
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« Reply #99 on: May 05, 2013, 12:45:28 PM »

I'm amused (because it is hilarious, in a dark way), but I'm also appalled. Quinalt said, "If your faith can't survive the possibility that the gluten in the lamb can cause damage to a celiac, then *your* faith isn't very strong." Well said.

I have the impression that the very idea of Celiac disease has thrown people for a loop in Orthodoxy. Made them doubt their theology. And they respond (if they respond at all, rather than ignoring any queries) by doubling down on a very literalistic interpretation of the Eucharist. Orthodoxy Herself calls it a mystery, but to protect their theology, others insist on drawing a road map.

Orthodoxy has yet to grapple with it, and in the confusion, bizarre ideas are circulating. When good men, educated men, fail to take the lead, the cranks take over. When otherwise good pastors, such as Fr. Peter Preble and the pastor of my local Orthodox church (the one who said "How could the body and blood of Jesus Christ do any harm?) say such things, it opens the door to them.

I think they are busy men and are simply speaking off-the-cuff. Celiac disease is still a relatively new and rare phenomenon. Like most people, they haven't studied it. (And yet they ask celiac people to trust those who haven't even educated themselves about it?) Fr. Peter sounds like he is responding in irritation to the germ-phobics -- I don't blame him for his irritation -- not realizing that it's a totally different thing. It's more like a peanut allergy than a germ phobia.

I also think that celiacs are being slapped with secondhand anger towards those converts who love the Orthodox church, the icons, smells and bells, etc., yet their first impulse upon joining is to try to change it. Bring in women priests, etc. That's unfair.

I don't know if, on this thread, this topic has merely brought trolls out of the woodwork -- sadists who delight in causing uproar -- or if there really is room in Orthodoxy for such backwards medieval ideas as have been expressed. Yes, there are nutcases and cranks in every religion (and, to put it more charitably, insecure people who desperately need everything to be nailed-down and all uncertainty removed) but it boggles the mind to witness the cruelty this has enabled.

I mean, forget converts, and the dilemma it poses to us. Forget the fact that a door is being closed in the face of any potential convert who isn't suicidal; who doesn't wish to soil themselves in public, spend the rest of the night doubled over in pain, and know they swallowed cancer larvae. We're talking innocent babies here.

The mere fact that this is still going on, with full awareness that it's at the price of a starving baby, screaming in pain ... words fail me. What would Jesus think of this?

Quinalt, God bless you. I'm so sorry you're facing this dilemma. I think you know what you have to do.
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« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2013, 12:54:08 PM »

Quote
The mere fact that this is still going on, with full awareness that it's at the price of a starving baby, screaming in pain ... words fail me. What would Jesus think of this?

Seriously. God made our bodies and understands that celiac disease is an auto immune disorder. For some, communion doesn't damage them, but for others, it does. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with the amount of faith the person has. It's all a mystery. Priests need to be understanding, protect their health, and not burden them with unnecessary guilt.
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« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2013, 01:11:45 PM »

http://www.frpeterpreble.com/2010/03/communion-and-sickness.html

This article says that your faith makes all the difference, and so do many other sources I am finding. I would be curious to find out more about this issue.

I am surprised Fr. Peter would write such a ridiculous statement.  We are not snakehandlers.  Yes the bread and wine are changed to the Body and Blood of Christ.  Yet they continue to look, smell, taste, and behave like bread and wine.  We eat them and digest them.  How is the Body and Blood of Christ subject to digestion?  Left long enough the Body will mold.  There are directions in Liturgicons about what to do when this happens.  Celiacs are affected by the gluten in bread and those with Sulfite allergy are affected by sulfites in wine.  Why?  I don't know.  If we can accept that the Gifts are subject to things like mold we should be able to wrap or heads around those with allergies are affected and need accomodation not condemnation.

They do not remain bread and wine, but in the shape of bread and wine. The Orthodox belief is that they are truly the actual Blood and Body of Christ (in the shape of bread and wine). For that reason, they behave like a miracle for those who have the right faith and make themselves worthy of receiving them. To say that you have allergy to the bread in them is the same as saying you have allergy to the Body of Christ, and this can only be because of sin. I have discussed about how sin can influence your experience of The Eucharist. If you take things personally and think it's too harsh, that to me is proof that you are indeed subject to the mysteries not working for you. Please, do not attack me for simply saying the truth. I am not any better than anybody here, only striving to be better.
I myself said they don't remain bread and wine, but are the Body and Blood of Christ, that look, smell, taste, and behave like bread and wine.  Again, were your nonsense true, why do Orthodox liturgicons have instructions for disposing of moldy Gifts? 
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« Reply #102 on: May 05, 2013, 01:36:10 PM »

http://www.frpeterpreble.com/2010/03/communion-and-sickness.html

This article says that your faith makes all the difference, and so do many other sources I am finding. I would be curious to find out more about this issue.

I am surprised Fr. Peter would write such a ridiculous statement.  We are not snakehandlers.  Yes the bread and wine are changed to the Body and Blood of Christ.  Yet they continue to look, smell, taste, and behave like bread and wine.  We eat them and digest them.  How is the Body and Blood of Christ subject to digestion?  Left long enough the Body will mold.  There are directions in Liturgicons about what to do when this happens.  Celiacs are affected by the gluten in bread and those with Sulfite allergy are affected by sulfites in wine.  Why?  I don't know.  If we can accept that the Gifts are subject to things like mold we should be able to wrap or heads around those with allergies are affected and need accomodation not condemnation.

They do not remain bread and wine, but in the shape of bread and wine. The Orthodox belief is that they are truly the actual Blood and Body of Christ (in the shape of bread and wine). For that reason, they behave like a miracle for those who have the right faith and make themselves worthy of receiving them. To say that you have allergy to the bread in them is the same as saying you have allergy to the Body of Christ, and this can only be because of sin. I have discussed about how sin can influence your experience of The Eucharist. If you take things personally and think it's too harsh, that to me is proof that you are indeed subject to the mysteries not working for you. Please, do not attack me for simply saying the truth. I am not any better than anybody here, only striving to be better.
I myself said they don't remain bread and wine, but are the Body and Blood of Christ, that look, smell, taste, and behave like bread and wine.  Again, were your nonsense true, why do Orthodox liturgicons have instructions for disposing of moldy Gifts?  
Don't know if this in response to me, or the entire discussion you quoted. That's what I maintain, as well, that they are Body and Blood of Christ in the form of bread and wine, just like Christ is God in a Human Body (you cannot treat that two as separate from each other, and the Divine aspect leads/conditions the Human/Physical one)
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« Reply #103 on: May 05, 2013, 03:13:34 PM »

I have the impression that the very idea of Celiac disease has thrown people for a loop in Orthodoxy. Made them doubt their theology. And they respond (if they respond at all, rather than ignoring any queries) by doubling down on a very literalistic interpretation of the Eucharist. Orthodoxy Herself calls it a mystery, but to protect their theology, others insist on drawing a road map.

Christ is Risen!

I don't doubt my theology at all.  Communing those with celiac disease is a pastoral issue, not a lay issue.  If that means that prosphora makers have to use GF flour in case one celiac receives communion, then so be it.  The rest of us shouldn't notice a difference.

Orthodoxy has yet to grapple with it, and in the confusion, bizarre ideas are circulating.

What kind of bizarre ideas?

When good men, educated men, fail to take the lead, the cranks take over. When otherwise good pastors, such as Fr. Peter Preble and the pastor of my local Orthodox church (the one who said "How could the body and blood of Jesus Christ do any harm?) say such things, it opens the door to them.

People like myself and IoanC are now cranks because we were taught that Holy Communion is the medicine of immortality?

I think they are busy men and are simply speaking off-the-cuff. Celiac disease is still a relatively new and rare phenomenon. Like most people, they haven't studied it. (And yet they ask celiac people to trust those who haven't even educated themselves about it?) Fr. Peter sounds like he is responding in irritation to the germ-phobics -- I don't blame him for his irritation -- not realizing that it's a totally different thing. It's more like a peanut allergy than a germ phobia.

Jesus said to eat my body and drink my blood.  Perhaps some clergy are confused and even doubt their own theology, as you already alluded to.

I also think that celiacs are being slapped with secondhand anger towards those converts who love the Orthodox church, the icons, smells and bells, etc., yet their first impulse upon joining is to try to change it. Bring in women priests, etc. That's unfair.

You said you didn't want preferential treatment because of your condition.  It's easy to have GF wafers and/or crackers in other Christian denominations.  Celiac disease existed in the time of Christ; it's not a new disorder and it was never addressed pastorally because we don't have the modern amenities we have today.

I don't know if, on this thread, this topic has merely brought trolls out of the woodwork -- sadists who delight in causing uproar -- or if there really is room in Orthodoxy for such backwards medieval ideas as have been expressed. Yes, there are nutcases and cranks in every religion (and, to put it more charitably, insecure people who desperately need everything to be nailed-down and all uncertainty removed) but it boggles the mind to witness the cruelty this has enabled.

Orthodoxy is the truth.  The truth hurts for some people.

I mean, forget converts, and the dilemma it poses to us. Forget the fact that a door is being closed in the face of any potential convert who isn't suicidal; who doesn't wish to soil themselves in public, spend the rest of the night doubled over in pain, and know they swallowed cancer larvae. We're talking innocent babies here.

The innocent baby is receiving the best pastoral care available.

The mere fact that this is still going on, with full awareness that it's at the price of a starving baby, screaming in pain ... words fail me. What would Jesus think of this?

With the fear of God and with faith and love draw near.
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« Reply #104 on: May 05, 2013, 03:27:28 PM »

OK then. I truly hope you are never in the situation that I am in. But I am positive that if you were, you would understand it isn't as simple as you believe it to be right now.

Like I said, you can do baby steps. Take one half, and then one day take the other when you are ready for that step. Remember, one half means you are half-saved.

 Huh There is a statement without any basis in Orthodox theology.

What really has no basis is that Communion can harm and that you should take half of it. It's no shame whatsoever though to take one half.  Better to be safe and honest, than to be sorry or proud.


Dear Quinault,

Keep the faith and do not listen to Ioan.

I am praying for you and your growing family!

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« Reply #105 on: May 05, 2013, 11:39:03 PM »

I suppose one advantage of the last year of fighting for medical testing/care for Taz is that I don't give a huge amount of credence to the medical opinions and advice of other people. police Thank you very much for the kind and encouraging posts! Taz is a tremendous blessing. I couldn't be happier to have such an amazing son. His very life is a miracle. Years ago, before celiac was a known condition, infants like him just starved to death and no one knew why. Fortunately there are a lot of resources available for celiacs.

I am thinking about asking to bring some GF bread to feed him instead of the antidoran. He really doesn't understand why he can't have bread when everyone else is. I think it would be a sort of morale boost to be able to have some bread with everyone else. Grin
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« Reply #106 on: May 06, 2013, 07:47:18 AM »

Dear Quinault,

Christos Anesti!

That sounds like a fine idea.  Maybe you can ask Father to bless it too?

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« Reply #107 on: May 06, 2013, 04:33:00 PM »

I suppose one advantage of the last year of fighting for medical testing/care for Taz is that I don't give a huge amount of credence to the medical opinions and advice of other people. police Thank you very much for the kind and encouraging posts! Taz is a tremendous blessing. I couldn't be happier to have such an amazing son. His very life is a miracle. Years ago, before celiac was a known condition, infants like him just starved to death and no one knew why. Fortunately there are a lot of resources available for celiacs.

I am thinking about asking to bring some GF bread to feed him instead of the antidoran. He really doesn't understand why he can't have bread when everyone else is. I think it would be a sort of morale boost to be able to have some bread with everyone else. Grin

Let us know what your priest says.
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« Reply #108 on: May 06, 2013, 05:18:11 PM »

Hello friends,

I was PMed a while ago to respond, because I run a web site, www.prosphora.org, and occasionally get questions about Celiac.  There are a few issues going on here, so I hope everyone will not mind terribly if I say just a few things in general.

1) Any type of modification of Communion, or any other Sacrament, lies not with any priest, but with the Bishop.  Period.  Any priest who invents on his own some 'solution' without consulting his bishop is in big trouble, because we do not 'confect' the Sacraments by ourselves, but rather on behalf of the bishop.

2) Food allergies in general, and Celiac in particular, have come to be the new fad for upper-middle class white parents, just as ADD and multiple personalities were in the previous decades (these start with geniune cases, but then explode with popular hypochonriatism).  So, we've seen lots of people blame their latest bout of indigestion on Celiac and gluten-intolerance (I've seen a number of these cases come, and mysteriously, go), ignoring the scientific facts that genuine cases are very rare and would not pop out of thing air after infancy.  So, most of us priests have been assailed by the 'helicopter mom' who has a long laundry list of her child's allergies and sensitivities, which almost never include the mother's generalized anxiety disorder bordering on Munchhausen Syndrome.  So, we tune out the weird because we get so much of it.  Forgive us.

3) That being said, genuine medically documented cases where absolutely any amount of bread is immediately harmful should be taken seriously.

4) We have a longer understanding of dealing with alcoholics and communion wine.  In such cases, I have heard bishops authorizing the communing of newly-recovering alcoholics with reserve Sacrament, since the Body and Blood have been combined.  Interestingly enough, the combining of wine with bread is not by soaking, but intincture (drops of wine applied to the bread), which means pieces of bread end up with wine in it, while others not.

5) Intincture, or the adding of the bread to the wine, is part of the consecration and cannot be avoided.  After intincture, it is assumed that the bread and the wine separately contain equally the Body and Blood of Christ.

6) If I were to offer an opinion to a bishop about the matter, I would say that after the 'IC' particle has gone into the chalice, and this can be a small piece or even a temporary 'dip,' then we have been obedient to the Church in completing the Anaphora and we could remove some of the wine that does not have bread floating around in it, and this could be used for a documented Celiac sufferer.  A well-made loaf of prosphora is rather sturdy and will not quickly disintegrate if the dough is well-kneaded and the gluten chains have formed.  It would be impossible for even trace amounts of gluten to 'escape' from a temporary dip of properly-made prosphora.  A dexterous priest could literally withdraw a spoonful of wine from one side of the chalice while a crumb is dropped in the other.  This properly consecrated wine could be administered.

7) If the parents were still not satisfied, then I would either seek a real medical opinion.  Some parents are so traumatized by the experience that they are over-protective.  Emotions have to come out of the way when making these kinds of decisions.

Cool Without the intincture, the Sacrament is not complete, and there is no getting around this.

9) There are a number of saints who never (or almost never) received sacramental communion.  Their intercessions should be sought.
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« Reply #109 on: May 06, 2013, 05:27:35 PM »

Cool Without the intincture, the Sacrament is not complete, and there is no getting around this.

Father,

Forgive me for saying it but this is not correct.  The Holy Gifts are not intincted in the Liturgy of St James and many others.  Now if you mean commingling that is a different matter but that only requires a portion of the Gifts.
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« Reply #110 on: May 06, 2013, 06:04:26 PM »

Hello friends,

3) That being said, genuine medically documented cases where absolutely any amount of bread is immediately harmful should be taken seriously.

...

9) There are a number of saints who never (or almost never) received sacramental communion.  Their intercessions should be sought.


With the judgmental comments removed, the relevant content is small indeed.
Father, let us continue to guard our tongues.
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« Reply #111 on: May 06, 2013, 06:05:13 PM »

Cool Without the intincture, the Sacrament is not complete, and there is no getting around this.

Father,

Forgive me for saying it but this is not correct.  The Holy Gifts are not intincted in the Liturgy of St James and many others.  Now if you mean commingling that is a different matter but that only requires a portion of the Gifts.

A voice of sanity.
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« Reply #112 on: May 06, 2013, 06:33:15 PM »

To anyone that is curious:

My husband and I have discussed this issue at some length. At the moment we aren't planning to ask for a separate chalice, or anything that would require contacting the Bishop. We are very much in the stage where we just don't know how Taz feels after he receives. It seems to us that making a request to the Bishop is a *permanent* step. At this point it seems that Taz needs to be communicative enough to help with that decision.

We have decided to have him receive infrequently. He has been having a lot of gastro issues lately. This could just be a stage, or it could be because he was communed 3 times between Lazarus Saturday and Pascha. Without hearing directly from him about how he feels, we just can't know what the cause was. He absolutely will not be given any antidoran *ever*. I plan to bring some bread of some sort to give him so he isn't so left out when others receive antidoran. And he won't be holding the bowl of antidoran potentially ever (the kids hold the bowl of antidoran during communion and at the end of service) Receiving every 6 weeks to bi-monthly, should hopefully keep any discomfort/damage to a minimum until we know more.

The difficulty in our situation is the fact that Taz is so young. If he was old enough to communicate, or really if he was ever "normal" to begin with we would have some gauge to know how he is doing. As it stands now, his digestive system is really still healing (he is 19 pounds now!! Smiley ). And the decision to approach the Bishop is potentially a lifelong change. And Taz really should be involved in that decision as it will impact him for the rest of his life.


Mini rant time:
I will note that I find the current gluten free fad really obnoxious. Everyone wants to get me to read "Wheat Belly" and everyone seems to want to be celiac. The reality is that yes, some people do feel better gluten free because you alter your diet so dramatically. But they don't necessarily have celiac disease. My mother sent me a book that says Celiac is basically the same as IBS and Chrohns Roll Eyes I find the fad very, very obnoxious. It is nice to have some GF options, but the number of people that *think* they can understand what we are dealing with is just infuriating. Responses like "yeah, my stomach is upset after I have gluten" while chowing down on some "Gluten free corn chips" make me want to strangle someone. The very idea that someone would *want* to be celiac just makes me angry. And the number of people that think GF=Carb free makes my head spin. GF is anything but carb free. And telling me that I shouldn't give my son rice....well fortunately I have slightly more self-control than I did a few years ago in my response.
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« Reply #113 on: May 06, 2013, 06:52:45 PM »

Commingling and intincture are pretty much the same where I come from...

Cool Without the intincture, the Sacrament is not complete, and there is no getting around this.

Father,

Forgive me for saying it but this is not correct.  The Holy Gifts are not intincted in the Liturgy of St James and many others.  Now if you mean commingling that is a different matter but that only requires a portion of the Gifts.
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« Reply #114 on: May 06, 2013, 06:55:39 PM »

Is this Ortho-speak for, "Shut up, father!"?

You guard your own tongue, and I will manage mine... thank you!


With the judgmental comments removed, the relevant content is small indeed.
Father, let us continue to guard our tongues.

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« Reply #115 on: May 06, 2013, 08:35:34 PM »

Is this Ortho-speak for, "Shut up, father!"?

You guard your own tongue, and I will manage mine... thank you!


With the judgmental comments removed, the relevant content is small indeed.
Father, let us continue to guard our tongues.


Watch your dismount!

Our adversary the devil roams the world like a lion seeking whom he may devour
(St. Peter).

With record numbers of children and adults suffering from verified allergies, including severe allergic asthma, how dare you to call these people hypochondriacs!

Many celiacs prefer not to be formally diagnosed by doctors as even doctors do not have a verifiable diagnostic test. All doctors can do is check for intestinal damage by means of a very painful biopsy and do genetic tests to check for a family history. Failure to thrive and gain weight is only a symptom. People with celiac and/or gluten sensitivity have a higher rate of suicide and cancer. It should not be so lightly dismissed.
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« Reply #116 on: May 06, 2013, 08:37:00 PM »

Speaking against a priest..?

Gospodi pomiluj!
Gospodi pomiluj!
Gospodi pomiluj!

Have this place gone hostile in 1-2-3?
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« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2013, 09:07:51 PM »

It is not Fr. who is doing the devouring around here.  Also, I thought we were supposed to apply the Scriptures to ourselves, not others.  We should be careful about telling other people to do things that we ourselves are not doing, such as watching our tongues and/or our fingers on a keyboard.
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« Reply #118 on: May 06, 2013, 09:58:18 PM »

Speaking against a priest..?

Gospodi pomiluj!
Gospodi pomiluj!
Gospodi pomiluj!

Have this place gone hostile in 1-2-3?

No, this thread was quite hostile already.
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« Reply #119 on: May 06, 2013, 11:24:34 PM »

Cool Without the intincture, the Sacrament is not complete, and there is no getting around this.

Father,

Forgive me for saying it but this is not correct.  The Holy Gifts are not intincted in the Liturgy of St James and many others.  Now if you mean commingling that is a different matter but that only requires a portion of the Gifts.

I also do not believe that this is correct.  The current EO practice of dropping the bread into the cup and feeding it with the spoon is a later practice, and from what I have seen in attending some of the OO Liturgies, not a practice that was adopted by all.  In fact, I was told such by the priest that first accepted me into the Orthodox Church.  However, that being the historical case does not make it OK for a modern priest to deviate from the practice that has been handed down to him.  So in that context, I would have to agree with the Father on this one, not that my agreement means anything.

btw - what is the Western Rite tradition?  I have attended WR Liturgies, but have never communed in a WR Church.  I do believe that I remember them first giving the bread and then the cup.
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« Reply #120 on: May 07, 2013, 12:17:00 AM »

All of the ancient liturgies have an act of uniting the bread and wine.  The practice of putting all the bread in the chalice is EO, but the Coptic and Syriac liturgies all have a particle which is placed in the chalice or submerged in the wine.

The spoon did come later.


Cool Without the intincture, the Sacrament is not complete, and there is no getting around this.

Father,

Forgive me for saying it but this is not correct.  The Holy Gifts are not intincted in the Liturgy of St James and many others.  Now if you mean commingling that is a different matter but that only requires a portion of the Gifts.

I also do not believe that this is correct.  The current EO practice of dropping the bread into the cup and feeding it with the spoon is a later practice, and from what I have seen in attending some of the OO Liturgies, not a practice that was adopted by all.  In fact, I was told such by the priest that first accepted me into the Orthodox Church.  However, that being the historical case does not make it OK for a modern priest to deviate from the practice that has been handed down to him.  So in that context, I would have to agree with the Father on this one, not that my agreement means anything.

btw - what is the Western Rite tradition?  I have attended WR Liturgies, but have never communed in a WR Church.  I do believe that I remember them first giving the bread and then the cup.
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« Reply #121 on: May 07, 2013, 12:35:01 AM »

Maria, you are reading things into my post that I did not write.  Did I say that all allergies are the result of hypochondria?  No, I did not.

There is plenty of evidence that people are misdiagnosing their allergies: http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20120220/gluten-sensitivity-fact-or-fad

There is also evidence that many people simply have no allergies whatsoever, but incorrectly self-diagnose: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-27005/Is-food-intolerance-just-fad.html?printingPage=true

That's just a few of the various studies that are out there.  Should we take every hysterical complaint seriously just because people feel so strongly convicted?  No.

The truth is that real Celiac sufferers are being neglected because there are so many people with mild indigestion that claim to have Celiac who are making it a 'joke diagnosis.'  That's the sad part.

So, Maria, I believe you owe me an apology for your rudeness.  Of course, I doubt you will apologize, and you will try to justify your misreading.  However, I'm willing to take a chance that there's something there that might resemble Christian charity.   Wink


Is this Ortho-speak for, "Shut up, father!"?

You guard your own tongue, and I will manage mine... thank you!


With the judgmental comments removed, the relevant content is small indeed.
Father, let us continue to guard our tongues.


Watch your dismount!

Our adversary the devil roams the world like a lion seeking whom he may devour
(St. Peter).

With record numbers of children and adults suffering from verified allergies, including severe allergic asthma, how dare you to call these people hypochondriacs!

Many celiacs prefer not to be formally diagnosed by doctors as even doctors do not have a verifiable diagnostic test. All doctors can do is check for intestinal damage by means of a very painful biopsy and do genetic tests to check for a family history. Failure to thrive and gain weight is only a symptom. People with celiac and/or gluten sensitivity have a higher rate of suicide and cancer. It should not be so lightly dismissed.
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« Reply #122 on: May 07, 2013, 05:40:06 AM »

Thank you for your clarifications, FatherGiryus! I wholeheartedly submit to them.
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« Reply #123 on: May 07, 2013, 08:23:55 AM »

Thank you Father for your counsel on this issue. It was very helpful.

I wish to apologize to all on this thread for the hasty and ill considered remarks I made out of frustration on this topic.
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« Reply #124 on: May 07, 2013, 08:48:15 AM »

Thank you very much for this explanation.  A question for you - does the Orthodox Church believe that the full presence of the body and blood of Christ is present in each individual species (bread / wine), or that it is a requirement that both the bread AND the wine must be consumed to have actually partaken of the sacrament?  We can start a new thread if you want, but I am not really looking for a discussion, just an answer as to the Orthodox teaching on this because I really do not know and could not find an answer.  All I know is the Lutheran belief concerning this matter.


All of the ancient liturgies have an act of uniting the bread and wine.  The practice of putting all the bread in the chalice is EO, but the Coptic and Syriac liturgies all have a particle which is placed in the chalice or submerged in the wine.

The spoon did come later.


Cool Without the intincture, the Sacrament is not complete, and there is no getting around this.

Father,

Forgive me for saying it but this is not correct.  The Holy Gifts are not intincted in the Liturgy of St James and many others.  Now if you mean commingling that is a different matter but that only requires a portion of the Gifts.

I also do not believe that this is correct.  The current EO practice of dropping the bread into the cup and feeding it with the spoon is a later practice, and from what I have seen in attending some of the OO Liturgies, not a practice that was adopted by all.  In fact, I was told such by the priest that first accepted me into the Orthodox Church.  However, that being the historical case does not make it OK for a modern priest to deviate from the practice that has been handed down to him.  So in that context, I would have to agree with the Father on this one, not that my agreement means anything.

btw - what is the Western Rite tradition?  I have attended WR Liturgies, but have never communed in a WR Church.  I do believe that I remember them first giving the bread and then the cup.
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« Reply #125 on: May 07, 2013, 09:58:25 AM »

Dear Punch,

I know there are voices on both sides of this argument.  There certainly is no dogmatic definition in this regard, but I would say that since the whole notion of Communion is a great Mystery, it should be approached as such.  If someone is literally going to die or have a horrendous physical reaction to bread, then I don't think that Christ is going to insist on someone communing with bread.  Pastorally, I have seen bishops address the opposite problem, wine 'allergy' in the form of alcoholism, by communing alcoholics out of the dried reserve sacrament without wine.

The union of the bread and wine, be it the intincture or commingling or whatever language you want to use (I'm not a liturgical theologian so forgive my imprecise terminology) has a meaning: they are not to be treated as separate elements.  Blood belongs in a Body, and a Body is rightly filled with Blood.  That being said, I think it is a bit presumptuous to say that we know for certain whether there is total and ongoing separation of the two elements because our Lord simply did not get into that.

Communion is an improbably and inexplicable Miracle, and should be treated as such.  I suppose that if our Lord wants to share His Body with a suffering child through only wine, then He can, and would be presumptuous to say, "No , He can't!"


Thank you very much for this explanation.  A question for you - does the Orthodox Church believe that the full presence of the body and blood of Christ is present in each individual species (bread / wine), or that it is a requirement that both the bread AND the wine must be consumed to have actually partaken of the sacrament?  We can start a new thread if you want, but I am not really looking for a discussion, just an answer as to the Orthodox teaching on this because I really do not know and could not find an answer.  All I know is the Lutheran belief concerning this matter.

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« Reply #126 on: May 07, 2013, 10:43:06 AM »

To look at it from another perspective.  If someone somehow secretly mixed rat poison in the mysteries or poisoned them before they are concecrated.  Could someone be miraculously spared from death in that situation?  Absolutely, but I don't think God is somehow "obligated" to make sure that no one would die from such a situation.

They are the Body and Blood of Christ and they cannot harm, but our correct faith is needed through all that The Holy Fathers prescribe: fasting, repentance, confession, good deeds, etc.

How much fasting, repentance, confession, good deeds, etc. can a one-year-old child do?
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« Reply #127 on: May 07, 2013, 10:54:09 AM »

To look at it from another perspective.  If someone somehow secretly mixed rat poison in the mysteries or poisoned them before they are concecrated.  Could someone be miraculously spared from death in that situation?  Absolutely, but I don't think God is somehow "obligated" to make sure that no one would die from such a situation.

They are the Body and Blood of Christ and they cannot harm, but our correct faith is needed through all that The Holy Fathers prescribe: fasting, repentance, confession, good deeds, etc.

How much fasting, repentance, confession, good deeds, etc. can a one-year-old child do?

I've already addressed this in the shape of how the parents approach the whole thing which can affect the baby. The situation can even be more complicated, if you want to address all circumstances, but I am not going to speak anymore because, as I already said, I feel someone else has addressed the topic better than I can.
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« Reply #128 on: May 07, 2013, 11:17:28 AM »

Thank you again.  I tend to see it the same way.  Communion is for our benefit, not God's.  God needs nothing.  He could make rocks and water his body and blood if He so chose.  I tend to think that if the priest is doing the best he can with what he has (and not out of disobedience or some heresy), and the person recieving the communion does so with faith and the fear of God, God will find some way to bless them.  After all, our Salvation is His gift, as is His Holy body and blood.  If we call something a mystery, we should not try too hard to explain it.  I like the way that you put your response.

BTW - are you the priest that makes the bread stamps out of resin?


Dear Punch,

I know there are voices on both sides of this argument.  There certainly is no dogmatic definition in this regard, but I would say that since the whole notion of Communion is a great Mystery, it should be approached as such.  If someone is literally going to die or have a horrendous physical reaction to bread, then I don't think that Christ is going to insist on someone communing with bread.  Pastorally, I have seen bishops address the opposite problem, wine 'allergy' in the form of alcoholism, by communing alcoholics out of the dried reserve sacrament without wine.

The union of the bread and wine, be it the intincture or commingling or whatever language you want to use (I'm not a liturgical theologian so forgive my imprecise terminology) has a meaning: they are not to be treated as separate elements.  Blood belongs in a Body, and a Body is rightly filled with Blood.  That being said, I think it is a bit presumptuous to say that we know for certain whether there is total and ongoing separation of the two elements because our Lord simply did not get into that.

Communion is an improbably and inexplicable Miracle, and should be treated as such.  I suppose that if our Lord wants to share His Body with a suffering child through only wine, then He can, and would be presumptuous to say, "No , He can't!"


Thank you very much for this explanation.  A question for you - does the Orthodox Church believe that the full presence of the body and blood of Christ is present in each individual species (bread / wine), or that it is a requirement that both the bread AND the wine must be consumed to have actually partaken of the sacrament?  We can start a new thread if you want, but I am not really looking for a discussion, just an answer as to the Orthodox teaching on this because I really do not know and could not find an answer.  All I know is the Lutheran belief concerning this matter.

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« Reply #129 on: May 07, 2013, 11:26:14 AM »

Yes.

Thank you again.  I tend to see it the same way.  Communion is for our benefit, not God's.  God needs nothing.  He could make rocks and water his body and blood if He so chose.  I tend to think that if the priest is doing the best he can with what he has (and not out of disobedience or some heresy), and the person recieving the communion does so with faith and the fear of God, God will find some way to bless them.  After all, our Salvation is His gift, as is His Holy body and blood.  If we call something a mystery, we should not try too hard to explain it.  I like the way that you put your response.

BTW - are you the priest that makes the bread stamps out of resin?


Dear Punch,

I know there are voices on both sides of this argument.  There certainly is no dogmatic definition in this regard, but I would say that since the whole notion of Communion is a great Mystery, it should be approached as such.  If someone is literally going to die or have a horrendous physical reaction to bread, then I don't think that Christ is going to insist on someone communing with bread.  Pastorally, I have seen bishops address the opposite problem, wine 'allergy' in the form of alcoholism, by communing alcoholics out of the dried reserve sacrament without wine.

The union of the bread and wine, be it the intincture or commingling or whatever language you want to use (I'm not a liturgical theologian so forgive my imprecise terminology) has a meaning: they are not to be treated as separate elements.  Blood belongs in a Body, and a Body is rightly filled with Blood.  That being said, I think it is a bit presumptuous to say that we know for certain whether there is total and ongoing separation of the two elements because our Lord simply did not get into that.

Communion is an improbably and inexplicable Miracle, and should be treated as such.  I suppose that if our Lord wants to share His Body with a suffering child through only wine, then He can, and would be presumptuous to say, "No , He can't!"


Thank you very much for this explanation.  A question for you - does the Orthodox Church believe that the full presence of the body and blood of Christ is present in each individual species (bread / wine), or that it is a requirement that both the bread AND the wine must be consumed to have actually partaken of the sacrament?  We can start a new thread if you want, but I am not really looking for a discussion, just an answer as to the Orthodox teaching on this because I really do not know and could not find an answer.  All I know is the Lutheran belief concerning this matter.

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« Reply #130 on: May 07, 2013, 11:28:52 AM »

Yes.


Thank you.  I have three of them.  They work better than any others that I have used.
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« Reply #131 on: May 07, 2013, 11:39:51 AM »

Thank you.  I am glad you enjoy them.

Yes.


Thank you.  I have three of them.  They work better than any others that I have used.
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« Reply #132 on: May 07, 2013, 05:07:09 PM »

Hello friends,

I was PMed a while ago to respond, because I run a web site, www.prosphora.org, and occasionally get questions about Celiac.  There are a few issues going on here, so I hope everyone will not mind terribly if I say just a few things in general.

Thank you, Father. Thank you so much.

1) Any type of modification of Communion, or any other Sacrament, lies not with any priest, but with the Bishop.  Period.  Any priest who invents on his own some 'solution' without consulting his bishop is in big trouble, because we do not 'confect' the Sacraments by ourselves, but rather on behalf of the bishop.

Good point.  I think I will ask the bishop if there are any parishes where adjustments are already being made for celiac disease, and attend that parish, whether or not it's pleasing in other ways. 

Someone brought up the idea that I am asking for special things done for me.  That's a good point.  If at all possible, I'd rather not cause extra trouble in that regard.

2) Food allergies in general, and Celiac in particular, have come to be the new fad for upper-middle class white parents, just as ADD and multiple personalities were in the previous decades (these start with geniune cases, but then explode with popular hypochonriatism).  So, we've seen lots of people blame their latest bout of indigestion on Celiac and gluten-intolerance (I've seen a number of these cases come, and mysteriously, go),

This is ... bracing, but probably undeniable.

ignoring the scientific facts that genuine cases are very rare and would not pop out of thing air after infancy.

Not necessarily.  I was diagnosed as an adult.  A bona-fide medical diagnosis.  The doctor saw the flattened villi.  I had the anemia, the falling-out hair, etc. But I get your point.

So, most of us priests have been assailed by the 'helicopter mom' who has a long laundry list of her child's allergies and sensitivities, which almost never include the mother's generalized anxiety disorder bordering on Munchhausen Syndrome.  So, we tune out the weird because we get so much of it.  Forgive us.

*smile*

3) That being said, genuine medically documented cases where absolutely any amount of bread is immediately harmful should be taken seriously.

Thank you. To over-spiritualize this, and deny the reality of it, puts me in physical danger, whether others believe it or not.  Danger I highly doubt is God's will for me.  Or, it leads to me and others receiving thoughtless condemnation.  Accusations are implied toward celiac sufferers that judge either the level of our faith, our sinfulness, or both. It is this that has angered me in this thread, and led to words that were perhaps overly strong.

4) We have a longer understanding of dealing with alcoholics and communion wine.  In such cases, I have heard bishops authorizing the communing of newly-recovering alcoholics with reserve Sacrament, since the Body and Blood have been combined.

I appreciate being presented with these facts.

9) There are a number of saints who never (or almost never) received sacramental communion.  Their intercessions should be sought.

Yes. I don't want to change Orthodoxy.  If I were convinced it were true, and also that it was impossible to receive the Eucharist, I'd attend just to worship without ever receiving and trust God to make up the difference.  I just don't want people judging me or quoting John 6 at me.

You say later:

9) The truth is that real Celiac sufferers are being neglected because there are so many people with mild indigestion that claim to have Celiac who are making it a 'joke diagnosis.'

Yes. That's the sad part.
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« Reply #133 on: May 07, 2013, 05:14:47 PM »

To anyone that is curious:

My husband and I have discussed this issue at some length. At the moment we aren't planning to ask for a separate chalice, or anything that would require contacting the Bishop. We are very much in the stage where we just don't know how Taz feels after he receives. It seems to us that making a request to the Bishop is a *permanent* step. At this point it seems that Taz needs to be communicative enough to help with that decision.

We have decided to have him receive infrequently. He has been having a lot of gastro issues lately. This could just be a stage, or it could be because he was communed 3 times between Lazarus Saturday and Pascha. Without hearing directly from him about how he feels, we just can't know what the cause was. He absolutely will not be given any antidoran *ever*. I plan to bring some bread of some sort to give him so he isn't so left out when others receive antidoran. And he won't be holding the bowl of antidoran potentially ever (the kids hold the bowl of antidoran during communion and at the end of service) Receiving every 6 weeks to bi-monthly, should hopefully keep any discomfort/damage to a minimum until we know more.

The difficulty in our situation is the fact that Taz is so young. If he was old enough to communicate, or really if he was ever "normal" to begin with we would have some gauge to know how he is doing. As it stands now, his digestive system is really still healing (he is 19 pounds now!! Smiley ). And the decision to approach the Bishop is potentially a lifelong change. And Taz really should be involved in that decision as it will impact him for the rest of his life.

I think this is an excellent plan.  A measured, responsible middle-path.

Mini rant time:
I will note that I find the current gluten free fad really obnoxious. Everyone wants to get me to read "Wheat Belly" and everyone seems to want to be celiac. The reality is that yes, some people do feel better gluten free because you alter your diet so dramatically. But they don't necessarily have celiac disease.

I agree.  And those who dabble in it, give a bad name to those who really have to be more serious about it.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 05:15:46 PM by ElizabethNM » Logged
noahs_mommom
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« Reply #134 on: May 09, 2013, 11:36:23 AM »

I've been diagnosed with the blood test and an endoscopy.  and I do notice more and more people go gluten free, but never have the test results to back it up.  These people go on and off the diet, which makes other people think that people with Celiac can go on and off the diet, without anything bad happening.  So it hurts those people that have the disease.  It's extremely frustrating.  Celiac is not a joke, and not something that can be taken lightly.  Also, a lot of Atkins people think they can eat gluten free, and it means the same thing.  Even after you explain it, it takes them a while to understand.

There was an article about a chef that would tell people their food was gluten free, but it wasn't, because he didn't believe Celiac existed.  He said that he never saw a reaction in his restaurant.  Reality is, their reactions came that night, and it's not fun.  People just don't take it seriously.

As an adult with Celiac, I can tell you, Eucharist is hard.  Going through all of these feelings is very very hard, I can't imagine what it must be like for a child.

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Tags: communion celiac disease 
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