About "Oriental Catholics"

[Peter J]

A little question about terminology.

The phrase "Oriental Catholic", in the strictest sense, means to me "Catholic Churches which have an Oriental Orthodox counterpart". But "Oriental Catholic" is also used to refer to all Eastern non-Byzantine Catholics, including ones which have no Oriental Orthodox counterpart, like the Maronite Catholics, the Chaldean Catholics, etc. (It's also occasionally used to indicate all non-Latin Catholic Churches, but let's not get into that.)

So what I'm wondering is, is there a preferred way to indicate that you mean it in the stricter sense of "Catholic Churches which have an Oriental Orthodox counterpart"? I've thought of "Oriental/Alexandrian Catholic Churches", but that's seems to have drawbacks of its own.

Any input is appreciated.
Blessings,
Peter.

[Salpy]

I have no idea.  I just always called them "Catholic," or by their specific name, like "Armenian Catholic."  It's too bad we don't have any "Oriental Catholics" here to ask how they like to refer to themselves.

[Peter J]

The phrase "Oriental Catholic", in the strictest sense, means to me "Catholic Churches which have an Oriental Orthodox counterpart". But "Oriental Catholic" is also used to refer to all Eastern non-Byzantine Catholics, including ones which have no Oriental Orthodox counterpart, like the Maronite Catholics, the Chaldean Catholics, etc.

I just happened to come across this old thread. It strikes me that, in the years that have passed since, I've seen quite a lot of webpages that don't necessarily settle the question posed here (which churches fall into the category "Oriental Catholic"), but which all agree that "Eastern Catholic" means only the UGCC, Melkites, BCC, etc. (i.e. only the Greek Catholics).

[Alpo]

A fuss over nothing. What's wrong with plain old "Eastern Catholic"?

[theistgal]

A fuss over nothing. What's wrong with plain old "Eastern Catholic"?

Maybe for the same reason you don't (or shouldn't) refer to the Oriental Orthodox as "plain ol' 'Eastern Orthodox'?" Because they don't identify as such?

I know you would just rather call us all "Roman Catholics", though, and appreciate that you at least recognize the EC. 

[Alpo]

A fuss over nothing. What's wrong with plain old "Eastern Catholic"?

Maybe for the same reason you don't (or shouldn't) refer to the Oriental Orthodox as "plain ol' 'Eastern Orthodox'?" Because they don't identify as such?

I don't refer to them as "Eastern Orthodox" because in English language it is customary to refer to them as "Oriental Orthodox"

I know you would just rather call us all "Roman Catholics", though, and appreciate that you at least recognize the EC.  

It's not about recognition. It's about silliness of re-inventing the words.

[Cantor Krishnich]

The "question behind the question" would be, do they subscribe the beliefs of Monophysitism?

[Peter J]

I think I see what you're saying Alpo. It's true that "Eastern Catholics" is used officially to mean all of them, and it's also true that "Oriental Catholics" is used officially to mean all of them.

But outside of official documents, Greek Catholics are rarely called "Oriental Catholics", and it seems to be increasingly common to use "Eastern Catholics" to mean only the Greek Catholics.

[Cyrillic]

The "question behind the question" would be, do they subscribe the beliefs of Monophysitism?

I have never heard of any Monophysite alive today. Do they even exist anymore?

[Salpy]

The "question behind the question" would be, do they subscribe the beliefs of Monophysitism?

Are you alleging that the Oriental Orthodox subscribe to those beliefs?  If so, that allegation would more properly be made in the private forum.

[Severian]

The "question behind the question" would be, do they subscribe the beliefs of Monophysitism?

I have never heard of any Monophysite alive today. Do they even exist anymore?

Indeed. Neither have I.

Regarding the "Oriental Catholics," however, just don't refer to them as "Oriental Orthodox in communion with Rome." Because they are not.

[LizaSymonenko]

I think I see what you're saying Alpo. It's true that "Eastern Catholics" is used officially to mean all of them, and it's also true that "Oriental Catholics" is used officially to mean all of them.

But outside of official documents, Greek Catholics are rarely called "Oriental Catholics", and it seems to be increasingly common to use "Eastern Catholics" to mean only the Greek Catholics.

From Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

The terms Byzantine Catholic and Greek Catholic are used of those who belong to Churches that use the Byzantine Rite. The terms Oriental Catholic and Eastern Catholic include these, but are broader, since they also cover Catholics who follow the Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian and Chaldean liturgical traditions.

I'm not sure that cleared it up, though.  

[Peter J]

I think I see what you're saying Alpo. It's true that "Eastern Catholics" is used officially to mean all of them, and it's also true that "Oriental Catholics" is used officially to mean all of them.

But outside of official documents, Greek Catholics are rarely called "Oriental Catholics", and it seems to be increasingly common to use "Eastern Catholics" to mean only the Greek Catholics.

From Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

The terms Byzantine Catholic and Greek Catholic are used of those who belong to Churches that use the Byzantine Rite. The terms Oriental Catholic and Eastern Catholic include these, but are broader, since they also cover Catholics who follow the Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian and Chaldean liturgical traditions.

I'm not sure that cleared it up, though. 

In a way I agree. However, it could be argued that we don't really need two different terms ("Eastern Catholic" and "Oriental Catholic") to mean the same thing. So it makes a certain amount of sense to redefine one or the other (or both?) of them -- i.e. to define "Eastern Catholic" to refer to just the Greek Catholics, or to define "Oriental Catholic" to refer to just the ones that correspond to an Oriental Orthodox Church.

[LizaSymonenko]

To be honest, I've never heard the term Oriental Catholic used.

[Nephi]

FWIW, it seems CAF's Eastern Catholic board uses "Eastern Catholic" to include Orientals as well as Chaldean Catholics.

[Nephi]

Regarding the "Oriental Catholics," however, just don't refer to them as "Oriental Orthodox in communion with Rome." Because they are not.

I think I've seen one or two describe themselves in that way.

[Cantor Krishnich]

The "question behind the question" would be, do they subscribe the beliefs of Monophysitism?

Are you alleging that the Oriental Orthodox subscribe to those beliefs?  If so, that allegation would more properly be made in the private forum.

Alright, maybe I should have asked, "Are they Non-Chalcedonian?". Feel free to edit it.

[Nephi]

Alright, maybe I should have asked, "Are they Non-Chalcedonian?". Feel free to edit it.

So far as I understand, the Oriental Catholics do continue to use non-Chalcedonian Christology. The Chaldeans likewise to continue to use their traditional Assyrian Christology (which I've heard is not actually Nestorian, but I'll leave that to someone else to clarify). The only difference is that they all agree that the various Christological expressions affirm the same mystery of Christ while continuing to use that which is traditional to them.

Regarding the councils, I'm honestly not sure what they do.

[Salpy]

My understanding is that the Armenian Catholics accept all 21 of the Catholic Church's councils.  I can't imagine Rome allowing any of its daughter churches to not uphold Chalcedon, since that is where the Catholic Pope first took a significant leadership role.

Regarding the Chaldeans, my understanding is that they recognize the first seven councils. 

[Nephi]

My understanding is that the Armenian Catholics accept all 21 of the Catholic Church's councils.  I can't imagine Rome allowing any of its daughter churches to not uphold Chalcedon, since that is where the Catholic Pope first took a significant leadership role.

Regarding the Chaldeans, my understanding is that they recognize the first seven councils. 

Do you know if the Armenian Catholics stress the first 3 councils and Armenian councils more than the rest? I'd imagine they'd have to, to some degree, to keep their identity/traditions from Latinizing.

[Mor Ephrem]

My understanding is that the Armenian Catholics accept all 21 of the Catholic Church's councils.  I can't imagine Rome allowing any of its daughter churches to not uphold Chalcedon, since that is where the Catholic Pope first took a significant leadership role.

Regarding the Chaldeans, my understanding is that they recognize the first seven councils. 

I presumed that the Eastern Catholics would acknowledge all 21 of the Roman Catholic Church's councils, even if some are more influential than the others.  The Malankara Catholics (a split off from the Malankara Orthodox), for example, commemorate in the diptychs of the Eucharistic Liturgy the "councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon, and the holy fathers and doctors who participated in them", or words to that effect.  Whether they freely added Chalcedon to the text or it was required of them by Rome, I don't know, but there it is.  

Eastern Catholics in India, whether less or more Latinized from a liturgical perspective, are, at best, definitely a sort of Syro-Latin hybrid theologically.  I suspect that is more common across the board than some would like to admit.  

[Peter J]

To be honest, I've never heard the term Oriental Catholic used.

It's used in official Catholic statements (where it is interchangeable with "Eastern Catholic"), but I find that it is rarely used in plain conversation. Which I think goes back to not-needing-two-terms-meaning-the-same.

[Peter J]

My understanding is that the Armenian Catholics accept all 21 of the Catholic Church's councils.  I can't imagine Rome allowing any of its daughter churches to not uphold Chalcedon, since that is where the Catholic Pope first took a significant leadership role.

Regarding the Chaldeans, my understanding is that they recognize the first seven councils. 

I presumed that the Eastern Catholics would acknowledge all 21 of the Roman Catholic Church's councils, even if some are more influential than the others. 

There are definitely a fair number of Greek Catholics who say that there have only been 7 ecumenical councils.

As far as any ECs (or more specifically "Oriental" Catholics) saying that there have only been 3 ecumenical councils ... I can't say for sure, but from what I've heard from various people over the years, I think that's pretty much non-existent.

[Mor Ephrem]

Greek Catholics seem a little more feisty about such matters, but at the end of the day, I'd like to know if the actual Churches' official positions are that there are only 7 ecumenical councils, or if they officially recognize 21 even if the last 14 aren't really formative in their tradition.  I suspect that the Churches recognize 21, even if clerics and laity as individuals don't.  But I'm happy to be proven wrong.  If I'm not, then it just supports my hunch that "Oriental Catholics" are more internally consistent. 

[Peter J]

A fuss over nothing. What's wrong with plain old "Eastern Catholic"?

It's not enough to have a name for each of the 22 EC Churches, and a term for all of them collectively. It's necessary to have terms that reflect the similarities and differences among them.

Consider the 14 Greek Catholic Churches, and just think of how inconvenient it would be to say "the Belarusian Catholic Church, the Russian Catholic Church, the Macedonian Catholic Church, the Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church, the Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church, the Byzantine Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro, the Greek Byzantine Catholic Church, the Hungarian Byzantine Catholic Church, the Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church, the Slovak Byzantine Catholic Church, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, the Romanian Greek-Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, and the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church” every time you wanted to talk about them.

[Peter J]

A fuss over nothing. What's wrong with plain old "Eastern Catholic"?

In view of your statement and question, I'm curious what you think of this thread having been moved to the Oriental Orthodox Discussion section ...

[minasoliman]

From what I understand, Coptic Catholics continue to venerate saints like St. Severus and St. Jacob of Serug.  I wonder if they just adopted the whole calendar of saints and included St. Dioscorus, St. Samuel the Confessor, etc.

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