OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 20, 2014, 08:31:27 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: About "Oriental Catholics"  (Read 1664 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,174



« on: May 30, 2008, 12:15:39 PM »

A little question about terminology.

The phrase "Oriental Catholic", in the strictest sense, means to me "Catholic Churches which have an Oriental Orthodox counterpart". But "Oriental Catholic" is also used to refer to all Eastern non-Byzantine Catholics, including ones which have no Oriental Orthodox counterpart, like the Maronite Catholics, the Chaldean Catholics, etc. (It's also occasionally used to indicate all non-Latin Catholic Churches, but let's not get into that.)

So what I'm wondering is, is there a preferred way to indicate that you mean it in the stricter sense of "Catholic Churches which have an Oriental Orthodox counterpart"? I've thought of "Oriental/Alexandrian Catholic Churches", but that's seems to have drawbacks of its own.

Any input is appreciated.
Blessings,
Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,892


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2008, 09:17:21 PM »

I have no idea.  I just always called them "Catholic," or by their specific name, like "Armenian Catholic."  It's too bad we don't have any "Oriental Catholics" here to ask how they like to refer to themselves.
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,174



« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2013, 09:52:44 AM »

The phrase "Oriental Catholic", in the strictest sense, means to me "Catholic Churches which have an Oriental Orthodox counterpart". But "Oriental Catholic" is also used to refer to all Eastern non-Byzantine Catholics, including ones which have no Oriental Orthodox counterpart, like the Maronite Catholics, the Chaldean Catholics, etc.

I just happened to come across this old thread. It strikes me that, in the years that have passed since, I've seen quite a lot of webpages that don't necessarily settle the question posed here (which churches fall into the category "Oriental Catholic"), but which all agree that "Eastern Catholic" means only the UGCC, Melkites, BCC, etc. (i.e. only the Greek Catholics).
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 7,043



« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2013, 11:30:45 AM »

A fuss over nothing. What's wrong with plain old "Eastern Catholic"?
Logged

theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2013, 11:59:52 AM »

A fuss over nothing. What's wrong with plain old "Eastern Catholic"?

Maybe for the same reason you don't (or shouldn't) refer to the Oriental Orthodox as "plain ol' 'Eastern Orthodox'?" Because they don't identify as such?

I know you would just rather call us all "Roman Catholics", though, and appreciate that you at least recognize the EC.  Cheesy
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 7,043



« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2013, 12:31:09 PM »

A fuss over nothing. What's wrong with plain old "Eastern Catholic"?

Maybe for the same reason you don't (or shouldn't) refer to the Oriental Orthodox as "plain ol' 'Eastern Orthodox'?" Because they don't identify as such?

I don't refer to them as "Eastern Orthodox" because in English language it is customary to refer to them as "Oriental Orthodox"

Quote
I know you would just rather call us all "Roman Catholics", though, and appreciate that you at least recognize the EC.  Cheesy

It's not about recognition. It's about silliness of re-inventing the words.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 12:31:22 PM by Alpo » Logged

Cantor Krishnich
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Pan-Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 545


Mar Ahmed the Daftadar


« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2013, 01:01:47 PM »

The "question behind the question" would be, do they subscribe the beliefs of Monophysitism?
Logged

Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,174



« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2013, 01:39:43 PM »

I think I see what you're saying Alpo. It's true that "Eastern Catholics" is used officially to mean all of them, and it's also true that "Oriental Catholics" is used officially to mean all of them.

But outside of official documents, Greek Catholics are rarely called "Oriental Catholics", and it seems to be increasingly common to use "Eastern Catholics" to mean only the Greek Catholics.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Cyrillic
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,037


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2013, 02:01:23 PM »

The "question behind the question" would be, do they subscribe the beliefs of Monophysitism?

I have never heard of any Monophysite alive today. Do they even exist anymore?
Logged

"Claret is the liquor for boys; port for men; but he who aspires to be a hero must drink brandy."
-Dr. Samuel Johnson
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,892


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2013, 08:38:18 PM »

The "question behind the question" would be, do they subscribe the beliefs of Monophysitism?

Are you alleging that the Oriental Orthodox subscribe to those beliefs?  If so, that allegation would more properly be made in the private forum.
Logged

Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: The Church of Alexandria
Posts: 5,048


Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2013, 08:39:50 PM »

The "question behind the question" would be, do they subscribe the beliefs of Monophysitism?

I have never heard of any Monophysite alive today. Do they even exist anymore?
Indeed. Neither have I.

Regarding the "Oriental Catholics," however, just don't refer to them as "Oriental Orthodox in communion with Rome." Because they are not.
Logged

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

I am currently not an active poster on the forum. Please forgive any offense I might have caused in the past. Thank you.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,624



WWW
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2013, 08:41:29 PM »

I think I see what you're saying Alpo. It's true that "Eastern Catholics" is used officially to mean all of them, and it's also true that "Oriental Catholics" is used officially to mean all of them.

But outside of official documents, Greek Catholics are rarely called "Oriental Catholics", and it seems to be increasingly common to use "Eastern Catholics" to mean only the Greek Catholics.

From Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

The terms Byzantine Catholic and Greek Catholic are used of those who belong to Churches that use the Byzantine Rite. The terms Oriental Catholic and Eastern Catholic include these, but are broader, since they also cover Catholics who follow the Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian and Chaldean liturgical traditions.


I'm not sure that cleared it up, though.  Smiley

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,174



« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2013, 09:10:54 PM »

I think I see what you're saying Alpo. It's true that "Eastern Catholics" is used officially to mean all of them, and it's also true that "Oriental Catholics" is used officially to mean all of them.

But outside of official documents, Greek Catholics are rarely called "Oriental Catholics", and it seems to be increasingly common to use "Eastern Catholics" to mean only the Greek Catholics.

From Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

The terms Byzantine Catholic and Greek Catholic are used of those who belong to Churches that use the Byzantine Rite. The terms Oriental Catholic and Eastern Catholic include these, but are broader, since they also cover Catholics who follow the Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian and Chaldean liturgical traditions.


I'm not sure that cleared it up, though.  Smiley

In a way I agree. However, it could be argued that we don't really need two different terms ("Eastern Catholic" and "Oriental Catholic") to mean the same thing. So it makes a certain amount of sense to redefine one or the other (or both?) of them -- i.e. to define "Eastern Catholic" to refer to just the Greek Catholics, or to define "Oriental Catholic" to refer to just the ones that correspond to an Oriental Orthodox Church.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,624



WWW
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2013, 09:31:52 PM »


To be honest, I've never heard the term Oriental Catholic used.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,732



« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2013, 09:57:17 PM »

FWIW, it seems CAF's Eastern Catholic board uses "Eastern Catholic" to include Orientals as well as Chaldean Catholics.
Logged
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,732



« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2013, 09:58:28 PM »

Regarding the "Oriental Catholics," however, just don't refer to them as "Oriental Orthodox in communion with Rome." Because they are not.

I think I've seen one or two describe themselves in that way. Wink
Logged
Cantor Krishnich
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Pan-Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 545


Mar Ahmed the Daftadar


« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2013, 10:03:52 PM »

The "question behind the question" would be, do they subscribe the beliefs of Monophysitism?

Are you alleging that the Oriental Orthodox subscribe to those beliefs?  If so, that allegation would more properly be made in the private forum.

Alright, maybe I should have asked, "Are they Non-Chalcedonian?". Feel free to edit it.
Logged

Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,732



« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2013, 10:09:00 PM »

Alright, maybe I should have asked, "Are they Non-Chalcedonian?". Feel free to edit it.

So far as I understand, the Oriental Catholics do continue to use non-Chalcedonian Christology. The Chaldeans likewise to continue to use their traditional Assyrian Christology (which I've heard is not actually Nestorian, but I'll leave that to someone else to clarify). The only difference is that they all agree that the various Christological expressions affirm the same mystery of Christ while continuing to use that which is traditional to them.

Regarding the councils, I'm honestly not sure what they do.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 10:09:24 PM by Nephi » Logged
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,892


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2013, 10:52:45 PM »

My understanding is that the Armenian Catholics accept all 21 of the Catholic Church's councils.  I can't imagine Rome allowing any of its daughter churches to not uphold Chalcedon, since that is where the Catholic Pope first took a significant leadership role.

Regarding the Chaldeans, my understanding is that they recognize the first seven councils. 
Logged

Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,732



« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2013, 10:59:23 PM »

My understanding is that the Armenian Catholics accept all 21 of the Catholic Church's councils.  I can't imagine Rome allowing any of its daughter churches to not uphold Chalcedon, since that is where the Catholic Pope first took a significant leadership role.

Regarding the Chaldeans, my understanding is that they recognize the first seven councils. 

Do you know if the Armenian Catholics stress the first 3 councils and Armenian councils more than the rest? I'd imagine they'd have to, to some degree, to keep their identity/traditions from Latinizing.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Stratopedarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,731


"And you shall call his name Jesus..."


WWW
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2013, 11:00:54 PM »

My understanding is that the Armenian Catholics accept all 21 of the Catholic Church's councils.  I can't imagine Rome allowing any of its daughter churches to not uphold Chalcedon, since that is where the Catholic Pope first took a significant leadership role.

Regarding the Chaldeans, my understanding is that they recognize the first seven councils. 

I presumed that the Eastern Catholics would acknowledge all 21 of the Roman Catholic Church's councils, even if some are more influential than the others.  The Malankara Catholics (a split off from the Malankara Orthodox), for example, commemorate in the diptychs of the Eucharistic Liturgy the "councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon, and the holy fathers and doctors who participated in them", or words to that effect.  Whether they freely added Chalcedon to the text or it was required of them by Rome, I don't know, but there it is.  

Eastern Catholics in India, whether less or more Latinized from a liturgical perspective, are, at best, definitely a sort of Syro-Latin hybrid theologically.  I suspect that is more common across the board than some would like to admit.  
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.

Please, James, tell us more about women!
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,174



« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2013, 09:37:56 AM »

To be honest, I've never heard the term Oriental Catholic used.

It's used in official Catholic statements (where it is interchangeable with "Eastern Catholic"), but I find that it is rarely used in plain conversation. Which I think goes back to not-needing-two-terms-meaning-the-same.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,174



« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2013, 09:39:09 AM »

My understanding is that the Armenian Catholics accept all 21 of the Catholic Church's councils.  I can't imagine Rome allowing any of its daughter churches to not uphold Chalcedon, since that is where the Catholic Pope first took a significant leadership role.

Regarding the Chaldeans, my understanding is that they recognize the first seven councils. 

I presumed that the Eastern Catholics would acknowledge all 21 of the Roman Catholic Church's councils, even if some are more influential than the others. 

There are definitely a fair number of Greek Catholics who say that there have only been 7 ecumenical councils.

As far as any ECs (or more specifically "Oriental" Catholics) saying that there have only been 3 ecumenical councils ... I can't say for sure, but from what I've heard from various people over the years, I think that's pretty much non-existent.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Stratopedarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,731


"And you shall call his name Jesus..."


WWW
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2013, 12:57:49 PM »

Greek Catholics seem a little more feisty about such matters, but at the end of the day, I'd like to know if the actual Churches' official positions are that there are only 7 ecumenical councils, or if they officially recognize 21 even if the last 14 aren't really formative in their tradition.  I suspect that the Churches recognize 21, even if clerics and laity as individuals don't.  But I'm happy to be proven wrong.  If I'm not, then it just supports my hunch that "Oriental Catholics" are more internally consistent. 
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.

Please, James, tell us more about women!
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,174



« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2013, 03:13:25 PM »

A fuss over nothing. What's wrong with plain old "Eastern Catholic"?

It's not enough to have a name for each of the 22 EC Churches, and a term for all of them collectively. It's necessary to have terms that reflect the similarities and differences among them.

Consider the 14 Greek Catholic Churches, and just think of how inconvenient it would be to say "the Belarusian Catholic Church, the Russian Catholic Church, the Macedonian Catholic Church, the Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church, the Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church, the Byzantine Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro, the Greek Byzantine Catholic Church, the Hungarian Byzantine Catholic Church, the Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church, the Slovak Byzantine Catholic Church, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, the Romanian Greek-Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, and the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church” every time you wanted to talk about them.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,174



« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2013, 10:07:19 PM »

A fuss over nothing. What's wrong with plain old "Eastern Catholic"?

In view of your statement and question, I'm curious what you think of this thread having been moved to the Oriental Orthodox Discussion section ...
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,969


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2013, 10:12:29 PM »

From what I understand, Coptic Catholics continue to venerate saints like St. Severus and St. Jacob of Serug.  I wonder if they just adopted the whole calendar of saints and included St. Dioscorus, St. Samuel the Confessor, etc.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Tags: Oriental Catholic Eastern Catholic 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.096 seconds with 54 queries.