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Author Topic: A Question for Eastern and Oriental Catholics.  (Read 8243 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 30, 2008, 06:54:03 AM »

This is exactly what Eastern Catholics believe of themselves, that they are still orthodox. He should be deposed, at his age, he should know that simply concelebrating with heterodox is grounds for defrocking. He should be defrocked for violating the canons on con-celebration then excommunicated for participating and actualizing a heretical ritual.


You've been told before that we don't apply the "U" word to Eastern Catholics here.  Please be more careful to not let it happen again.

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Question & not to derail topic, but, I presume you mean (for clarification) "uniate"(?). Why is this term considered offensive?; I really do not understand. I have used it with no ill intent to a couple of Eastern Catholics who attended vespers (& also used the term) at our Orthodox parish as if I was referring to a Methodist by their communion name & our rapport was most cordial.

Just fixed the quotation box.  -- Friul
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2008, 08:43:01 AM »

As posters are aware (hopefully), we have a forum policy here at OCnet that Eastern and Oriental Catholics should not be referred to as "Uniates".
We sometimes receive questions about this policy from Orthodox posters, as to whether this is in fact an offensive term. Recently, this question has been raised again. I have moved the post here (the one above) and was wondering whether any of our Eastern Catholic posters could give their opinions on the matter.
Do you find the term "Uniate" offensive?

George
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2008, 11:34:23 AM »

I am an import into the Ruthenian Church (growing up Latin rite) so never grew up with being sneeringly called a "Uniate" by Orthodox family members or friends or, surprisingly, by Latin rite Catholics who take a triumphal attitude towards the Eastern Churches.  The word has little meaning for me either way. 

However, I am very aware of the feelings of my co-religionists who find this term very offensive and painful.  Personally, I think it boils down to the intent of those who use the word.  If it's used purely as a descriptive, historical term for Eastern Churches in communion with Rome, then I usually let it slide.  But many times it is used in a disdainful, backhanded manner that is meant to cause pain.  Of course, even the word "Catholic" can be used in such a way by a member of the Orthodox church depending on the tone it is used.  Regardless, a significant number of Catholics find the term offensive or at least uncomfortable due to its often current use as a term of disparagement.

I think OC.net has adopted a decent and workable policy of just simply not using the term and "pastorally" encouraging our fellow posters here who do use it to drop it, at least while posting on these fora.  While some may not realize it, it is a charged word and can derail a good discussion by turning it into a debate over semantics.  Once that debate starts, references to Hitler are just over the next hill, so to speak, and I think we all want to avoid such trite posts Wink.

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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2008, 12:46:19 PM »

I agree . . . The term "Uniate" seems to have the connotation of "turncoat."

Similarly, I wince when I hear sedevacantists so casually call EO the "Oriental schismatics." The use of the term implies that all EO are schismatic in intention---not at all true. Growing up in a church in schism does not make you a culpable schismatic. For charity's sake, it's not a good term to use.

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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2008, 12:59:55 PM »

Thank you for replies. Eastern Catholics is, of course, a preferable sounding term and is best used exclusively rather than interchangeably.
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2008, 01:33:49 PM »

Nevermind--my question would be too divisive Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2008, 02:22:31 PM »

Growing up in a church in schism does not make you a culpable schismatic.

Have you not been warned?
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2008, 03:23:36 PM »

Thank you for replies. Eastern Catholics is, of course, a preferable sounding term and is best used exclusively rather than interchangeably.

I was Greek Catholic.  Many many families around here have families in both the Greek Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches.  The "u" term isn't even used where I live, which has probably equal numbers of Greek Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.  A lot of misconceptions by many people on the internet are made about what exactly Greek Catholics are and so forth.  Let's just say the real world doesn't work like it works out on paper or the internet.  The past 100 years were very challenging on the Greek Catholics (some in the Ruthenian church have shifted towards "byzantine catholic" but still, Greek Catholic, Byzantine Catholic are two ways of describing the same church).   We are glad to be able to put aside the troubles and strife that seperated many of our families, and still does to a point to this day. 
I seriously think there needs to be some sort of "Greek Catholicism explained to the Eastern Orthodox" pamphlet somewhere in many churches along with the concilliar press pamphlets.  As well as the "Eastern Orthodoxy explained to the Greek Catholics" pamphlet in the back of their churches.  And while we're at it, "Eastern Orthodoxy explained to Roman Catholics" pamphlet in their churches.  One more.... "Greek Catholics, yes they are part of Rome and really Catholics under the Pope explained to Roman Catholics" pamphlet in the Roman Catholic parishes.
Several of us here were Greek Catholics.  Even in many of our Eastern Orthodox parishes our small traditions are still "Greek Catholic" in liturgical praxis.  This is because most of our parishes on both sides of the fence come from specific rural areas and share the same small traditions you will not find in an Antiochian, Greek, Serbian, Romanian or many ROCOR parishes.   
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« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2008, 05:15:32 PM »

Well I am Greek Catholic [ Ukrainian - with not a drop of Ukrainian blood in me Smiley ]

Over here we are so few in number that folk just don't know what we are  - according to one person I'm a heretic Smiley - and he should have known what an Eastern Catholic is - he thinks I'm Orthodox Cheesy

I've never heard the 'u' word used over here - but it has been used deliberately as a term of insult to me on a Board [ not here ].
 That really annoyed me.

The problem with boards like this is that you don't 'see' how the term is being used - facial expressions indicate far more than we sometimes realise.
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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2008, 05:19:04 PM »

Have you not been warned?

I don't think he's not trying to be insulting here; in fact, he is defending us to his friends. He's saying if you are in a schismatic church that does not mean you are a schismatic yourself from a Latin POV: material vs formal schism. The way he started the post clearly shows that he is telling his overly zealous Latin friends that they should not call those of us born in the OC schismatics.
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2008, 08:17:32 PM »

The problem with boards like this is that you don't 'see' how the term is being used - facial expressions indicate far more than we sometimes realise.
I think that's the crux of the problem. Lacking the nuances of voice and body language, typed text is open to both misinterpretation of intent, as well as intentional ambiguity of conveyed meaning.
I am reminded of Mark Antony's speech to the crowd in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar following the murder of Caesar where he keeps referring to Brutus and the other assassins as "honourable men", but in reality his intent is to raise the crowd against the regicides. It was not any inherent meaning in the term "honourable men" which whipped up the crowd, but rather, the context in which it was skillfully used by Mark Antony to sway the crowd that in fact Brutus and the other assassins where not "honourable men".
Similarly, in the context of an Orthodox Christian discussion board, I think the word "Uniate"- while apparently innocent in itself- carries a meaning in it's subtext which is unavoidable. So it's not the word itself which is a problem, but rather the context and place in which it is employed.
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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2008, 08:28:31 PM »

Its funny that i dropped the "U" bomb and some find this offensive. Not even roman catholic cardinals found this term offensive and commonly employed it- until ecumnism got in the way. 

What these Byzantine rite catholics (or should i say byzantine wrong catholics) dont realize is how offenive it is to an ethnic greek (such as myself) to refer to themselves as greek catholics, when they are not. They are mostly ukranians who are trying to usurp the greek nationality, to promote roman catholicism since there is no greek counterpart to the ukranian catholics. I would like to see a byzantine catholic (anotherwords a heterodox ukranian) tell a true greek, that as a ukranians he is a greek catholic, then the byzantine catholics will see what it means to be offended.  The term greek catholic makes my blood boil , and this includes every greek I know. 
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« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2008, 08:47:16 PM »

What these Byzantine rite catholics (or should i say byzantine wrong catholics) dont realize is how offenive it is to an ethnic greek (such as myself) to refer to themselves as greek catholics, when they are not. They are mostly ukranians who are trying to usurp the greek nationality, to promote roman catholicism since there is no greek counterpart to the ukranian catholics. I would like to see a byzantine catholic (anotherwords a heterodox ukranian) tell a true greek, that as a ukranians he is a greek catholic, then the byzantine catholics will see what it means to be offended.  The term greek catholic makes my blood boil , and this includes every greek I know. 
And so, do you employ the term "Uniate" to punish them? Wink
"Greek Orthodox" is not about Ethnicity. The Patriarchate of Antioch also calls itself "Greek Orthodox"- why don't you find that "offensive" to your ethnicity?
And you are mistaken in thinking that there are no ethnically Greek Catholic Churches. Throughout the Islands and even in Constantinople there are ethnically Greek Churches which have united with Rome. You will find some information about this here: http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Byzantine/Greek.html Are they not "true Greeks"?
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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2008, 08:56:08 PM »

And so, do you employ the term "Uniate" to punish them? Wink
"Greek Orthodox" is not about Ethnicity. The Patriarchate of Antioch also calls itself "Greek Orthodox"- why don't you find that "offensive" to your ethnicity?
And you are mistaken in thinking that there are no ethnically Greek Catholic Churches. Throughout the Islands and even in Constantinople there are ethnically Greek Churches which have united with Rome. You will find some information about this here: http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Byzantine/Greek.html Are they not "true Greeks"?

I have never ever met a uniate greek because they dont exist and the greek constitution agrees with me, those in the islands are greeks who are roman rite. If i wanted to punish them i would call them what they truly are: Heretics.  Greek Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, Eastern Catholics all refer to the Eastern Orthodox church, those that follow Rome using eastern rituals are Uniates, plain and simple. This forum needs to change their policy, The term Uniate is the ONLY accurate term to describe them. Likewise "melkite". Melkites simply refer to those that accepted the council of Chalcedon as did the emperor, 'hence 'emperors men".
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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2008, 09:08:49 PM »

Thanks for offering your opinion.
It seems, you wish to have the "right" to use the term "Uniate" disparagingly which is precisely what we are trying to avoid.
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« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2008, 09:43:49 PM »

Its funny that i dropped the "U" bomb and some find this offensive. Not even roman catholic cardinals found this term offensive and commonly employed it- until ecumnism got in the way. 

What these Byzantine rite catholics (or should i say byzantine wrong catholics) dont realize is how offenive it is to an ethnic greek (such as myself) to refer to themselves as greek catholics, when they are not. They are mostly ukranians who are trying to usurp the greek nationality, to promote roman catholicism since there is no greek counterpart to the ukranian catholics. I would like to see a byzantine catholic (anotherwords a heterodox ukranian) tell a true greek, that as a ukranians he is a greek catholic, then the byzantine catholics will see what it means to be offended.  The term greek catholic makes my blood boil , and this includes every greek I know. 

I don't know of any Ukrainian trying to usurp the Greek nationality. Most Ukrainians I know are pretty proud to be Ukrainian.  The term Greek Catholic was invented by Empress Maria Teresa I believe and refers to the Greek Rite (as it was called for all those using the "Byzantine" Rite), not the Greek nationality.
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« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2008, 09:50:00 PM »

If the byzantine rite latin catholics want to use a term for themselves on this forum , then they should, as long as its appropriate- and not terminology which is more appropriate for the EO Church. How about Kyievan catholics? Or Hybrids? Or Unionists? Or ecumenists? All of these are more approprate, but not greek catholics.

Here is a little history on the "U" word and i dont mean ukranian even though they invented this hybrid movement inclusing the word:

http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/useoftheword.htm


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« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2008, 10:28:35 PM »

Buzuxi,
As a Greek Orthodox Christian who is also ethnically Greek, I find your use of the term "Greek Catholic" to be offensive. Your use of the term "Greek Catholic" seems based on the understanding that "Greek" refers to ethnic Greeks or Greek nationals. There is a Korean lady who attends Liturgy at our monastery and she is Greek Orthodox but doesn't speak a word of Greek nor is ethnically Greek. Are you saying that she can't call herself "Greek Orthodox"?
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« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2008, 10:41:32 PM »

Yes she can, because thats what greeks are: Orthodox. This is even enshrined in the greek constitution. The greek flag itself pays homage to its Orthodox roots. Greek catholics are Greek Orthodox, not ukranian heterodox. And i can get a few million greeks to side with me on this one. The fact remains that i know of GOA parishes (and many many greeks in general) where a unkranian latin catholic claiming to be "greek catholic"  would cause an uproar.
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« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2008, 10:50:10 PM »

Yes she can, because thats what greeks are: Orthodox. This is even enshrined in the greek constitution. The greek flag itself pays homage to its Orthodox roots. Greek catholics are Greek Orthodox, not ukranian heterodox. And i can get a few million greeks to side with me on this one. The fact remains that i know of GOA parishes (and many many greeks in general) where a unkranian latin catholic claiming to be "greek catholic"  would cause an uproar.

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« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2008, 11:15:56 PM »

I'm thankful this topic has arisen, because I have always used the term "Uniate", never realizing in the least how offensive it was! So now I shall try to consciously avoid it. 

Regarding this denomination, all I can say is they've got some of the best, most committed Christians I know in the world! In fact, I shall always be deeply indebted to three of their members who by their pious examples were unselfishly instrumental in leading me to the Orthodox Church! They were far more serious about their faith than their Orthodox peers, but never once tried to get me to join their church, but rather encouraged me to become Orthodox. I think that takes true strength of character, which they certainly had.



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« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2008, 11:18:25 PM »

The ones i know are nationalists who simply hate the MP. Hardly an example of christianity.
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« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2008, 12:03:59 AM »

I don't think he's not trying to be insulting here;
Is the double negative a Freudian slip? Wink
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« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2008, 12:11:41 AM »

I have never ever met a uniate greek because they dont exist and the greek constitution agrees with me, those in the islands are greeks who are roman rite. If i wanted to punish them i would call them what they truly are: Heretics.  Greek Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, Eastern Catholics all refer to the Eastern Orthodox church, those that follow Rome using eastern rituals are Uniates, plain and simple. This forum needs to change their policy, The term Uniate is the ONLY accurate term to describe them. Likewise "melkite". Melkites simply refer to those that accepted the council of Chalcedon as did the emperor, 'hence 'emperors men".

If the byzantine rite latin catholics want to use a term for themselves on this forum , then they should, as long as its appropriate- and not terminology which is more appropriate for the EO Church. How about Kyievan catholics? Or Hybrids? Or Unionists? Or ecumenists? All of these are more approprate, but not greek catholics.

Here is a little history on the "U" word and i dont mean ukranian even though they invented this hybrid movement inclusing the word:

http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/useoftheword.htm

buzuxi,

Thank you for showing us exactly why we should NOT allow posters to use the word "Uniate" in reference to Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2008, 12:22:26 AM »

They....never once tried to get me to join their church, but rather encouraged me to become Orthodox. I think that takes true strength of character, which they certainly had.
I have noticed that also, even online. I say that because people seem to behave differently online and off line. People whom I find belligerent proselytizers online actually turn out to be quite reasonable when I speak to them on the phone or in person. But I have never yet come across an Eastern or Oriental Catholic who has trolled or been belligerent online- plenty of Orthodox and plenty of Latin Catholics and plenty of Protestants, but not once an Eastern or Oriental Catholic.
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« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2008, 10:43:45 AM »

Yes, I think "uniate" is an offensive term, although how offensive it is depends on the use.

For one thing, I think that if someone uses it in the context of uniatism -- e.g. "There weren't any uniates until the 16th century." or some statement like that -- that's less offensive than if someone just always uses it because "that's just what we call them". (You might compare it to the difference between, on the one hand, the statement "The Orthodox are schismatic" and, on the other hand, a Catholic who never says "the Orthodox" but always "the schismatic Orthodox".)
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« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2008, 02:40:02 PM »

(You might compare it to the difference between, on the one hand, the statement "The Orthodox are schismatic" and, on the other hand, a Catholic who never says "the Orthodox" but always "the schismatic Orthodox".)
I don't think that comparison works.
If "Uniate" can simply mean "in union with Rome after the Schism", it becomes an objective reality. However "the Orthodox are schismatic" can never be an objective reality since it is always subjective.
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« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2008, 03:00:28 PM »

If the byzantine rite latin catholics want to use a term for themselves on this forum , then they should, as long as its appropriate- and not terminology which is more appropriate for the EO Church. How about Kyievan catholics? Or Hybrids? Or Unionists? Or ecumenists? All of these are more approprate, but not greek catholics.

Here is a little history on the "U" word and i dont mean ukranian even though they invented this hybrid movement inclusing the word:

http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/useoftheword.htm





Hmmm - do you know - most UGCC folk I know use KYIV  - we ain't Russians .
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« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2008, 03:46:19 PM »

If the byzantine rite latin catholics want to use a term for themselves on this forum , then they should, as long as its appropriate- and not terminology which is more appropriate for the EO Church.
Thinking about this some far after my rather shoot-from-the-hip earlier reply:  How is "Eastern Catholic" or "Byzantine Catholic" more appropriate for the EO Church than for those who call themselves Eastern Catholic?  Would you deny RC's the right to call themselves Roman Catholics because they're not really catholic according to the definition you (and most Orthodox) attach to the word, even though "Catholic" is now part of their official title?  Would you rather we call Roman Catholics "Latins" or "Papists" so we can deny them a title you don't think they deserve?

Or is it that you would refuse to grant Eastern/Byzantine Catholics such broad geographic designators that even we Orthodox accept only because they have been attached to us from outside?

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How about Kyievan catholics? Or Hybrids? Or Unionists? Or ecumenists? All of these are more approprate,
Hybrids?  Unionists?  Ecumenists?  That may be somewhat true, but these labels are also rather subjective, depending on who's applying them to whom.  Are you aware that you might be considered an ecumenist by such as Archbishop Gregory of Colorado, simply because you are still in communion with "ecumenist World Orthodoxy"?  Besides, it's not very diplomatic nor respectful.

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but not greek catholics.
How is a mere regional designator somehow more appropriate for Orthodox than for Catholics?  Does Orthodoxy have a monopoly on Greeks?
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« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2008, 04:12:14 PM »

How is a mere regional designator somehow more appropriate for Orthodox than for Catholics?  Does Orthodoxy have a monopoly on Greeks?

I'm still trying to figure out why buzuxi would be willing to call them "Kyievan catholics", in view of his earlier statement

Greek Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, Eastern Catholics all refer to the Eastern Orthodox church
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« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2008, 04:14:19 PM »

I don't think that comparison works.
If "Uniate" can simply mean "in union with Rome after the Schism", it becomes an objective reality. However "the Orthodox are schismatic" can never be an objective reality since it is always subjective.

Touché.
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« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2008, 04:16:03 PM »

The ones i know are nationalists who simply hate the MP. Hardly an example of christianity.

Buzuxi, I agree with you that some of them are that way, but I don't see what that has to do with the topic.
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« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2008, 02:10:07 AM »

Thinking about this some far after my rather shoot-from-the-hip earlier reply:  How is "Eastern Catholic" or "Byzantine Catholic" more appropriate for the EO Church than for those who call themselves Eastern Catholic?  Would you deny RC's the right to call themselves Roman Catholics because they're not really catholic according to the definition you (and most Orthodox) attach to the word, even though "Catholic" is now part of their official title?  Would you rather we call Roman Catholics "Latins" or "Papists" so we can deny them a title you don't think they deserve?

Or is it that you would refuse to grant Eastern/Byzantine Catholics such broad geographic designators that even we Orthodox accept only because they have been attached to us from outside?
Hybrids?  Unionists?  Ecumenists?  That may be somewhat true, but these labels are also rather subjective, depending on who's applying them to whom.  Are you aware that you might be considered an ecumenist by such as Archbishop Gregory of Colorado, simply because you are still in communion with "ecumenist World Orthodoxy"?  Besides, it's not very diplomatic nor respectful.
How is a mere regional designator somehow more appropriate for Orthodox than for Catholics?  Does Orthodoxy have a monopoly on Greeks?

I think it would be quite appropriate to simply call the RC 'Latins".  I would welcome such a thing, and i know the Jerusalem Patriarchate refers to them as 'Latins' and deny them the word 'catholic'. The JP sometimes groups them together with the others as: "those of the other dogmas".

Very true that people such as Gregory (and many others) consider me an ecumenist and even a heretic.  We can debate this point and even debate what constitutes appropriate ecumenism and inappropriate ecumenism,  but describing the byzantine right latins as ecumenist is completely appropriate because if they are not, then the word has no meaning and ecumenism simply doesnt exist.  They are the original ecumenists, and an extreme example of such many styling themselves as 'orthodox in communion with Rome. 
 And yes, Orthodoxy most definately has a monopoly on greeks, in fact many greek circles debate whether a greek who converts to another religion can still be considered greek.  It is the official religion of the Greek State and article 3.1 of the Constitution makes it clear that uniatism is not considered Eastern Orthodox by adding the phrase, "The Orthodox Church acknowledgig Jesus Christ as its head..."(not the pope, the entire reason the phrase was added). Anyone wishing to take a look at it scroll down to article 3:

http://www.hri.org/docs/syntagma/artcl25.html
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« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2008, 02:53:25 AM »

And yes, Orthodoxy most definately has a monopoly on greeks, in fact many greek circles debate whether a greek who converts to another religion can still be considered greek.  It is the official religion of the Greek State and article 3.1 of the Constitution makes it clear that uniatism is not considered Eastern Orthodox by adding the phrase, "The Orthodox Church acknowledgig Jesus Christ as its head..."(not the pope, the entire reason the phrase was added).

Sounds like phyletism to me.

And must I repeat myself from previous discussions? We Catholics also acknowledge Jesus Christ as the head of the Church. The Pope is only his vicar (or, in the words of St. Thomas Aquinas, his "vice-regent").
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« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2008, 03:30:51 AM »

Sounds like phyletism to me.

And must I repeat myself from previous discussions? We Catholics also acknowledge Jesus Christ as the head of the Church. The Pope is only his vicar (or, in the words of St. Thomas Aquinas, his "vice-regent").

The phrase in the greek constitution is their to counter the rc belief and that of uniatism; that there is no vicar.   
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« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2008, 03:40:57 AM »

I think it would be quite appropriate to simply call the RC 'Latins".  I would welcome such a thing, and i know the Jerusalem Patriarchate refers to them as 'Latins' and deny them the word 'catholic'. The JP sometimes groups them together with the others as: "those of the other dogmas".
I prefer the term used in Constantinople in the late medieval period - Franks. The Latins before them were Orthodox.

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« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2008, 04:50:44 AM »


Hmmm - do you know - most UGCC folk I know use KYIV  - we ain't Russians .

Is that similar to when people write "the Ukraine" and not "Ukraine." Smiley 

In Ukrainian it is Київ. 

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« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2008, 04:58:42 AM »

 The UGCC parish in Greece celebrated its 10th anniversary     l
2008-05-17
 15.05, [15:23] // Press-releases // Taras_H

Recently the parish of the UGCC in Athens (Greece) celebrated its 10th anniversary. The participants of the celebration were the Most Rev. Dionisiy (Lyakhovych), Curial Bishop, and the Most Rev. Yulian (Voronovskyj), Eparch of Sambir and Drohobych.

During their stay in Greece, on Saturday May 10, Bishops Dionisiy and Yulian were able to meet with the Exarch for Greek Catholics of Byzantine tradition, Bishop Anarghyros (Printesis). The guests from Ukraine thanked him for the support and development of the Ukrainian parish. A meeting with the successor of Bishop Anarghyros, Bishop-elect Prof. Dimitrios Salachas (the episcopal ordination will take place on May 24) also was held. Father Dimitrios was grateful that Ukrainian immigrants support the Greek Catholic Church and promised subsequent help for development of the parish of the UGCC. In addition to this the Bishops from Ukraine had a meeting in the Ukrainian embassy in Greece and with the Apostolic Nuncio in Greece, Archbishop Patrick Coveney.

On Sunday May 11 at 10.00 a festive Divine Liturgy began which Bishop Dionisiy concelebrated with Bishop Anarghyros, Archbishop Patrick, Bishop Yulian, and Bishop-elect Dimitrios. Priests of the Greek Catholic Church and of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church who arrived from Ukraine took part in the joint prayer. After the Gospel, Bishop Dionisiy in the Italian language greeted the Apostolic Nuncio and the local clergy and thanked them for the support of Ukrainian immigrants. The Curial Bishop of the UGCC built the basic part of his sermon on three virtues and senses: "memory," "gratitude," and "hope," with which it is possible to outline the 10-year jubilee. "We remember the difficult beginnings, our first attempts to organize the church community, the first Divine Liturgy on Easter 1998, which was celebrated by Fr. Serge Kelleher... We thank you. Gratitude is the gesture of a religious person. All that we have we have from God and also from others. We thank this state which accepted the Ukrainian immigrants; the Exarchate, which opened the doors of the Church of the Holy Trinity; the Ukrainian Embassy; priests who ministered and are ministering... We hope that we will continue and develop our way. One departs, others come. It happens in all of dimensions of human life," Bishop Dionisiy said in his sermon.

The Apostolic Nuncio and Bishop-elect Dimitrios had a word at the completion of the Liturgy. The latter used this possibility to present his vision of the development of the Ukrainian community.

On this day at 16.00, Bishops Dionisiy and Yulian, together with the priests of the UGCC, celebrated an Akathist to the Most Holy Mother of God. At the end of the prayer Bishop Yulian talked; he noted the value and importance of every citizen for our state and called the immigrants to return back to Ukraine. After the Akathist children and the parish choir came before all those present and then children from Lviv and Kharkiv presented a dance program.

Information

In 1998 in Athens on Easter, Fr. Archimandrite Serge Kelleher (Irish by origin) celebrated the Divine Liturgy for the first time in Greece in the Ukrainian language and blessed the paschal bread. Later Fr. Sviatoslav Shevchuk, Ph.D., at that time still a student in Rome and today the rector of Holy Spirit Seminary in Lviv, founded the Ukrainian community in Athens. During this time Fr. Yaroslav Batz and Fr. Atanasiy (a Greek) took care of our faithful, and for the last six years Fr. Lubomyr Datsiv.

Information Department of the UGCC
www.ugcc.org.ua


Ukrainian Greek Catholics exist in Greece, as do a few parishes that are Byzantine Rite under Rome that aren't Ukrainian. 
see this article about Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches in Greece for and attended by native Greeks;
http://www.cnewa.us/ecc-bodypg-us.aspx?eccpageID=72&IndexView=toc


This Greek Catholic Exarchate in Athens' website may be helpful as well;
http://www.elcathex.com/
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« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2008, 05:11:42 AM »

Yes byzantine rite latin catholics exist in greece, in their sole parish in Athens whose adherents are non-greeks  that work and reside there. Mingled in with tourists as well.  Well im sure there are 2 or 3 dozen greeks that attend as well (some unknowingly and others who dont care which bishop there under) an ignorant few out of ten million. The fact remains that there are no byzantine rite latin counterparts to the greek or serbian Orthodox.   
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« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2008, 05:15:36 AM »

Yes byzantine rite latin catholics exist in greece, in their sole parish in Athens whose adherents are non-greeks  that work and reside there. Mingled in with tourists as well.  Well im sure there are 2 or 3 dozen greeks that attend as well (some unknowingly and others who dont care which bishop there under) an ignorant few out of ten million. The fact remains that there are no byzantine rite latin counterparts to the greek or serbian Orthodox.   

Please go back down and re-read my post.

http://www.gcatholic.com/dioceses/diocese/gree3.htm
This website gives a history of the Exarchate in Greece for Byzantine Rite Catholics who use Koine Greek, who are Greek .
Bishop Dimitrios Salachas is the current bishop for the Byzantine Rite Catholics who are Greeks which would equate to a "counter-part." 

http://www.zenit.org/article-18449?l=english  an article that contains an interview with the above Bishop when he was a priest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Byzantine_Catholic_Church  I'm not a fan of wikipædia but threw this in anyway

And once again the Exarchate in Greece's homepage
http://www.elcathex.com/


And, and..................  a videos from the Exarchate's page, one from a Liturgy.
http://elcathex.com/video/

More on what the Greek Byzantine Rite Catholic Church in Greece
This article talks about what the reporter feels is the mission of the Greek Byzantine Rite Catholic Church in Greece, yes, native Greeks not immigrants as you may find in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Athens of Ukrainian origin.
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« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2008, 05:33:33 AM »

Yes i have, your links proves there is not such thing as greeks who are byzantine rite latins.

are you refering to this link:

http://www.cnewa.us/ecc-bodypg-us.aspx?eccpageID=72&IndexView=toc

According to this, after the State of Greece was established following the Greek War of Independance (1821-1829). The Turks wanting to divide the greeks which remained under their control, allowed uniates into the remaning area of the Ottomon Empire, to convert the greeks to the Unia. They originally found 2 parishes in Instanbul, but today only one remains without a priest and flock (anotherwords no uniates exist in Constantinople). A minority of uniates were established in Thrace at that time under the Turks as well, today they no longer exist (originally moving out of ottoman occupied land into macedonia where they assimilated and no longer exist).
After the turkish pogroms of the 1940's and 50's on the greeks of Constantinople, the entire greek uniate community emigrated to Athens where their only church in all of Greece is to this day (and churches in athens are quite small, anotherwords few dozen members of greek extraction at best).

And the hospital they established in 1944, lets add a historical footnite, during and after ww2 the RC sent in many missionaries to help the greeks as long as they converted, the greek government stepped in and barred all rc missionaries from doing work in the country, thats why no uniates.

The other article simply talks about a ukranian uniate immigrant community in Athens, some ukranian clergy met with the exarch who is in charge of all these uniate immigrant parishes in Greece since hardly any are actual greeks.

 Once again the majority of RC who are ethnically greek reside on the islands such as Samos, and these are of the roman rite not uniates.
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« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2008, 06:05:09 AM »

Here, please read this website as it explains the Catholics who do not use the Latin Rite http://www.melkite.org/eastern.htm
There is no such thing as a Byzatine Rite Latin.  To understand what I am talking about this point must be understood.  Otherwise there really isn't any argument as there is no such thing as a byzantine rite latin.
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« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2008, 06:29:28 AM »

i know exactly who are the uniates, there is a segment that are non-chalcedon as well, there found in Syria and Egypt. But this should only make you aware of the evil character of this group. They go into places like Syria further splintering the Church, creating not only EO but also OO counterparts in an already small community of christians. How many christian groups were in Syria before the unia and how many now, after they splintered apart the christian communities even further. 
I can go into Syria and find eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Melkites, and Jacobite catholics, the latter three being new to the scene. Likewise in Egypt, there already is a Coptic Patriarch but the vatican decided to steal a few parishes and place patriarch Naguib as a Coptic Patriarch. You may have friends who are byzantine rite catholics and i bet none are ethnic greeks, i object to them calling themselves greek catholics, thats more offensive to a greek orthodox than the word uniate ever will. They claim they have a byzantine rite parish in Constantinople, what they dont tell you is that its used by Chaldeans because greek uniates dont exist there.  They give an impressive list of greek uniate clergy when in reality they are recruited from the roman (latin) rite of the islands and have no flock except for sporadic non-greek immigrant communities.
Theres going to be many greeks on this forum who will read the history of the uniatism started in Constantinople from the cnewa link, and they will get ticked off, especially when they see the year of 1829 as the date they were brought in.

Oh and the link you gave about the 5 eastern rites in use within the the ROMAN (LATIN) catholic church (or if you prefer those in communion with the roman catholics), i guess the melkite.org website needs to refresh their memories on what eastern rites are in use amongst themselves, that is those groups in union with the 'Latins' (the pope) but are not latin rite , since they forgot to include the Maronites.
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« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2008, 06:42:13 AM »

I think I'm understanding you a little more here, what you are saying is that the Exarchate in Greece has a small presence and the websites don't match what's really going on at the street level. 
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« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2008, 06:50:19 AM »

correct, a very very small prescense, slim to none. To give you an example i have met greeks (born and raised in Greece) who are Jehovahs Witness, one who  has converted to Islam, some in the diaspora who are protestant, yet in my entire life never ever came across a greek who was in the unia. In fact outside of these forums (and some priests) i have never met a greek who has ever heard of the existence of a "byzantine rite catholic' church and usually think im making it all up. My cousins, and uncles and aunts who reside in Athens have never heard of them.  All my family in this country has never heard of them( who are mostly immigrants), and when i brought the, up they thought i was fabricating the existence of these churches. Of course many greeks and probably greeks from this very forum can vouch that they have definately heard of greeks that are Jehovahs witness but highly doubt they have come across ones that are byzantine rite catholics.
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