Women lie about their sex lives

[Kukla]

... but just a question, from another p.o.v.-

What if your best guy friend fell and slept with a girl? He realized after it that he was wrong, went to confession, was truly repentent and vowed to never let it happen again until after marriage. Would you discourage him from dating virgins? Would you wish him to marry a non-virgin? Or would you respect him because he realized his error, repented, and lived a chaste life after? Or would you not associate with him, not forgive him, and criticize him if he dated a virgin, or married a virgin? Who would have the greater sin? The man who fell and felt truly repentent? Or the man who continued to judge even after God had granted forgiveness? And would you actually discourage him from marrying a virgin? Even though he had received forgiveness from God and changed his ways? Would that be fair for you? Would it be fair for me to do the same with my best girl friend?

Just like one-time gluttony will not ruin a chef for the rest of his career, one-time falling into lust will not ruin a repentent Christian's future marriage.

sorry... bad bad analogy, but like I said, my brain is fried :-p

[CDHealy]

This is going to be my last response on this topic because I'm getting pissed off with the attitudes I'm getting from a supposedly 'Christian' crowd.

I'm sorry, I fail to understand.  We're talking sin, repentance and forgiveness.  Seems very Christian to me.

On the other hand, not forgiving . . . "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." (Matthew 18:35 NKJV)

[sinjinsmythe]

... but just a question, from another p.o.v.-

What if your best guy friend fell and slept with a girl? He realized after it that he was wrong, went to confession, was truly repentent and vowed to never let it happen again until after marriage. Would you discourage him from dating virgins? Would you wish him to marry a non-virgin? Or would you respect him because he realized his error, repented, and lived a chaste life after? Or would you not associate with him, not forgive him, and criticize him if he dated a virgin, or married a virgin? Who would have the greater sin? The man who fell and felt truly repentent? Or the man who continued to judge even after God had granted forgiveness? And would you actually discourage him from marrying a virgin? Even though he had received forgiveness from God and changed his ways? Would that be fair for you? Would it be fair for me to do the same with my best girl friend?

Just like one-time gluttony will not ruin a chef for the rest of his career, one-time falling into lust will not ruin a repentent Christian's future marriage.

sorry... bad bad analogy, but like I said, my brain is fried :-p

I will be honest here, and it may shock some people.  I would criticize him for dating a virgin.  I would mock him for marrying a virgin, because that virgin could have married another virgin.  Life is not fair, that is what I have learned.   Just because God forgives you does not mean all things are well. What about someone who kills someone else? He goes to church repents and confesses his sin, truly repented and vowed to never fall again. God has forgiven him, so why doesn't society forgive him and let him out of jail? Their are consequences to sin. A person who has slept around has a good chance of carrying STDs(believe it or not condoms do not protect against every STD) and STDs have been know to cause infertility in males and females.  So it becomes more of a health issue, and that is not a minor thing at all.   I have found that women are more accepting of sexual liasons than men. Just look at Kobe Bryant. He commits adultery and may go to jail, yet there is his wife right by his side.

[sinjinsmythe]

 Yes, there would be significant effects through which you both would have to work, but you would not be doomed.  

Thank you for saying that. I was trying to articulate that earlier but failed doing so.

[Jenny]

You obviously weren't paying attention to what the man said.  He asked how it could ever be possible for a virgin and non-virgin to find some sort of intiacy between each other -- not whether two non-virgins could.  The two situations are completely different from one another and, as such, everything you said is rendered moot.

Actually, I was paying attention.  The situations are not completely different.  The point remains the same:  just because someone is not a virgin when they marry doesn't mean they can't have an intimate relationship with their spouse.  If he is a virign and his wife is not when they marry, through the grace of God, they may still have an intimate relationship.  

In Christ,

Jenny

[Justin Kissel]

Don't forget that, especially in this day and age (with the net, xxx channels, porn shops, etc.), virginity is only part of the story. I technically entered marriage a virgin, but I was hardly sexually pure. Our world today offers us many different ways of being sexually impure while still being "a virgin" physically. The Fathers almost always identified virginity with purity of both body and soul. It would be wise for us not to get too hung up on the physical virginity thing.... especially in light of the fact that almost all of us have failed in some way in this area (even if not by having sexual relations).

The man who lusts in his heart has already committed adultery. Someone who looks at porn often, just as one example -- and I speak not as a judge but as someone with experience -- has not only committed spiritual adultery many times over but has died many spiritual deaths. Committing a sin should help us sympathise and love someone who commits a similar sin, because we can understand the pain and hurt that is caused, and spiritual and personal failure. Perhaps many of us have died so many times spiritually, though, that we have little life left with which to enliven and love others. I know this is true of me.

[Kukla]

I will be honest here, and it may shock some people.  I would criticize him for dating a virgin.  I would mock him for marrying a virgin, because that virgin could have married another virgin.  Life is not fair, that is what I have learned.   Just because God forgives you does not mean all things are well. What about someone who kills someone else? He goes to church repents and confesses his sin, truly repented and vowed to never fall again. God has forgiven him, so why doesn't society forgive him and let him out of jail? Their are consequences to sin. A person who has slept around has a good chance of carrying STDs(believe it or not condoms do not protect against every STD) and STDs have been know to cause infertility in males and females.  So it becomes more of a health issue, and that is not a minor thing at all.   I have found that women are more accepting of sexual liasons than men. Just look at Kobe Bryant. He commits adultery and may go to jail, yet there is his wife right by his side.  

I am sorry you feel this way. That is very sad. Yes, God forgives people if they are truly repentent and they may still remain in jail, thanks to our society. Is this the justification you are using to say that you don't have to forgive someone? Because society still leaves them in jail in spite of their repentance? This is the same society that earlier in this thread has been blamed for lack of morals and instilling promiscuity in people's lives.

And as for the STDs. Yes, that is undeniably a problem. However, are the STDs what you are concerned with? Or are you concerned more with the spiritual aspect of it. I'm a bit confused  

[Jenny]

As Plutonas said, I was asking about how a virgin and a non-virgin can build sexual intimacy in a marriage.  Anyway, you don't seem to be endorsing virginity, by that you are not totally bummed about not being a virgin on your wedding day.

On the contrary, as I said in my post, I wished I had remained a virgin.  I didn't use the words "totally bummed" so perhaps I didn't convey just how sorry I was, but rest assured I was seriously disappointed.   Everyone should be a virgin when they marry.  It is tragic if they are not.  However, my point was that it doesn't mean you can't have an intimate relationship.  And it does NOT matter whether the situation is one in which both people are not virgins or just one is not a virgin; a deep, intimate relationship may still flourish.  

If I was a widower, I don't think I would re-marry. Depending on the situation I would consider monasticism.

Say you had not been married and 10 years from now you meet and fall in love with a woman who had been married previously and was widowed (and she had only been with her late husband) would you not consider marrying her because she had had a previous sexual relationship?  

The point I'm trying to make is that just because a woman has been with another man does not mean that you can't have an intimate relationship with her as her spouse.

I'm sorry but I am sure that the Orthodox Church and God himself doesn't see it that way. You are telling me there is a difference between a person who has slept with one or two other people and the whole football team? What is the point of me being a virgin then? Whatever happened to being pure and having only one person for the rest of your life? Whatever happened to building an intimacy over time? So it is not so bad to have sex with a few people and not ten? That is pathetic.

You're missing my point.  It's never good to fornicate or commit adultery.  Sex is meant for inside marriage only.  However, there is a difference since a girl who goes out to sleep with the whole football team obviously has issues sexually, as opposed to the girl who made a single mistake by giving in to a boyfriend.  

I guess Plutonas and I are two aliens from another planet on this whole entire issue. I realize we live in a more sexually liberated time and it is sad.  So much for being chaste up to your marriage, might as well go out and get some experience with one or two others. This whole thread is just plain despairing.

Don't despair.  I'm really glad to see a guy who is willing to wait until marriage.  Most guys I've met, including Christian guys, are not willing to wait.  

Your sister in Christ,

Jenny

[TomS]

Just look at Kobe Bryant. He commits adultery and may go to jail, yet there is his wife right by his side.  

I'll take bets on how long. Be patient. By showing up at his side she gains more sympathy in the eyes of a future jury. You think she is stupid?

She knows this is not the first time. But then she can file for divorce and say "I stuck buy him then, but I had no IDEA that there were others. So, I'll settle for 50% of his earnings since we got married. Thank you"  



P.S. Not that you can blame her!

[sinjinsmythe]

Kukla, I am concerned with all aspects.

[Loukas]

Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten ...

-- The Prophet Joel

[Seraphim Reeves]

Just a few thoughts...

i) If someone is set on marrying a virgin, that is their right.  They certainly are not space aliens for expecting such - in most cultures, including decidedly Christian ones, a very high premium was placed on this.  Up until relatively recently, even in the west, a huge social stigma was placed upon engaging in pre-marital sex; it was a disgrace, with real social consequences, particularly in regard to one's future prospects.  This was particularly true in regard to women.  This is unfair (the gender bias), but it is hardly something "strange", and at one time there were understandable reasons for this bias (relating to the legitimacy of children, or ensuring any children born shortly after the marriage were in fact those of the husband.)

ii) statistically, marriages where both partners are virgins do work out better.  Divorce rates fall through the floor, even in our troubled western cultures, when one looks at marriages between two virgins.  Psychologically, we do give a part of ourselves away when we engage in sexual relations.  Obviously, if one has been with people other than their current spouse, some of the exlusiveness of that relationship has been comprimised.  This is why in Orthodoxy, one marriage is the ideal, even for widows/widowers.

iii) With the above said, (as Justin wisely pointed out) there is more to this than simple physicality... particularly for Christians, whose interests should rise above tribal/economic interests from days past (which still exist in many societies, such as the middle east and less developed areas), situations which actually result in a vision of marriage which is not by default what a "Christian marriage" is all about.  The Christian marriage is actually a very different animal from what normally passes for marriage in other civilizations; it is a return to the Adamic ideal, as Christ Himself indicated when speaking to the Jews.  In fact, without this Christian ideal, the utility of marriage as an institution becomes open for debate, since we are no longer nomads or tribesmen who have vested social/economic interests in our offspring, their strict descent from our loins, etc.  In fact, it is such a contractual/worldly view of marriage which allowed for the degeneration of marriage into polygamy throughout the world (since there is no good economic reason why a man couldn't have more than one wife to produce legitimate children.)  In our culture, this more "tribalistic" view of marriage rings hollow, and in part (along with the decline of the Christian ideal of marriage, corresponding to the decline of Christianity in general) is why promiscuity and the devaluing of marriage as an institution (or confusion about what it's for) has become so common.

iv) What should be of paramount concern when finding a spouse, I would think, is the state of their heart.  Virginity is not simply a matter of being physically in tact - virginity signifies (particularly in our sex drenched culture) a great commitment, and no small amount of personal discipline.  The mind which see's virginity as being important, is probably more congenial to the Christian ethos in general.

v) However, I think it's also possible to find someone who is repentent of their sins (in particular, sexual sins) and who has, in a manner of speaking, renewed their purity.  Perhaps such a person may be a very zealous Christian even.  It would be a shame to turn such a person away, I think, because of their past.  That however, is up to the person looking for a spouse, and we should respect that decision...I would say finding a genuine Christian, is just as difficult (if not more so) than finding someone who is a virgin...though I'd argue that the two often go hand in hand in our culture (since nothing but some kind of religious conviction would make such an unfashionable virtue practicable in our social climate.)

vi) A little word about "virgins" however.  This may sound terribly judgemental, but I question how "virginal" some physically in tact women are, at least in our culture.  Growing up, I knew of girls who prided themselves on being "virgins", yet I knew full well they had done lewd, sexual things...just not vaginal intercourse.  Is that really a "virgin" in the sense that matters to Christianity?  I'd say no, since "purity" (the real virtue behind being virginal) is something far broader than a woman having an intact hymen.  On that score, most men and women who are virgins (even the best of them, whose virginity is not simply pharisaical...no intercourse, but practically everything else under the sun) have fallen at some point.  Purity is fundamentally something rooted in the heart, which is precisely why it has some independence from physical acts (thus, why a physically chaste person can in fact be impure, or why someone who has been physically unchaste can regain this purity.)

Seraphim

[Ebor]

Just to add another aspect:  There are women who have been molested as children or raped.  In other words, through no volition of their own, they are not physically "virgins".  I hardly thing that this "sullies" them or takes their purity.  If such a woman were to be told that she was thus dirty or a w**** or unworthy of marriage this would cause even more wounds then the physical assault alone.

Life is not always or even often "binary".

Ebor

[prodromos]

I think it would do us all some good to read Hosea sometime.

Nobody on this thread has condoned sleeping around before marriage (or after marriage too I imagine) so I'm a little suprised at how two of our eligible bachelors have responded. Personally, I believe that when God reveals those women He has intended for you both this will not be an issue, and if it is you will wish to have it dealt with and never brought up again.

Marriage is a sacrament, and just like Baptism, Confession, the Eucharist etc. it is salvific in nature. I haven't had the time to look deeply into how this is so as I only recently came to this understanding, but others I have spoken to have confirmed the truth of this.

God is only interested in our salvation, everything He has done and continues to do for us is to this end. If marrying a virgin will help you in your journey to attaining salvation then I'm sure that God will bless you with such a marriage.
We must not forget, however, that God sees the big picture and will often permit suffering and despair in our lives which we do not understand at the time, but which force us to struggle and gain in strength so that we can strive all the more towards attaining eternal life. This may involve matching you with a woman who has sinned sexually in the past. It may be necessary for God to yoke her to a man who has kept himself sexually pure for the sake of her own salvation, as it may also be necessary for the man to be yoked to a woman who has sinned in this way for the sake of his own salvation.

Our only requirement in a spouse should be someone who can support us in our struggle towards the goal of eternal life and who we in turn can support in their struggle, for we become one flesh, their struggle becomes ours and ours theirs as we strive together as one.

I'll leave it there as I'm having difficulty expressing exactly what I want to say. I commend you for choosing to remain celebate for the sake of your future spouses as it is good and proper, however I don't believe you can demand the same of your spouses. All of us are adulterous before God as all of us have placed other things before God in our lives, yet God is merciful and forgiving and not only receives us back when we repent, but washes us whiter than snow. If God has forgiven us so large a debt, how can we not forgive those who have so much smaller a debt towards us?

John.

[Keble]

I think it would do us all some good to read Hosea sometime.

Far and away the most sensible thing said in this thread. Thank you for bringing up Hosea-- it hadn't occurred to me, but its relevance is obvious and telling.

[sinjinsmythe]

Okay, I 've read Hosea but I don't see the connection. God told Hosea to go and do it, something entirely different. I don't think that God will tell me tomorrow to go out and marry a whore.

[prodromos]

He will match you up with a sinner though.

Truly, I hope that God will bless your virginity by providing you with a wife who has also maintained her own, I truly do.

However, what if she happens to be someone who has never [insert your sin of choice] and does not wish to marry someone who has. You may be a virgin, but you have sinned in many other ways. Does God see your sin differently from sexual sin? Why do you?

You and I are both miserable sinners. My wife is a miserable sinner and your wife, when you find her, will also be a miserable sinner. Your role as her husband is to help her to attain salvation through your humility, love, support, prayer and at times rebuke. Her role will be to do the same for you, and together you will do the same for your children.

We are sinners, but we are also a people who have been set free from slavery to sin by the death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If a person has commited adultry, but later repented and confessed their sin, or similiarly later became an orthodox christian and had that sin washed away through their regeneration at baptism, God no longer sees that person as an adulterer. As far as God is concerned that person is now as white as snow. Should we see them any differently?

unworthy John.

[ania]

Sinjin,
I'm curious to see what you'll be like in 10 years.  Hopefully in that time, you will grow to understand that all people are sinners.  Are you saying it's better to marry a thief (or God forbid a murderer), than to marry a non-virgin?  Would you judge a repentant thief harshly, when Christ, during his crucifixion did not?  If we ever met, would you hold the fact that, long ago, in my troubled youth, I used to take advantage of the 5 figure discount quite a lot, against me,? though it was almost 10 years ago?  Would you disregard this fact as childish stupidity, or would you hide your Rolex & family silver if I came to dinner?  At the same time I was getting good at shoplifting, most of the other kids in my class were busy loosing their virginity.  Since then, many of my friends have regretted loosing it, as I regret stealing.  We were 13 at the time.  I was stealing as a backlash against authority, knowing full well what I was doing was wrong.  They had sex because for the most part no-one taught them any better.  If anyone here has sat in a high school health class in the recent past, what they will hear might shock them.  They teach how to put a condom on, they advise you to go to the nurse or Planned Parenthood for birth control, etc, etc.  Only at the end do they say, well, the best way to avoid an STD is by abstinence.  
So if you met someone, who, in the folly of youth, had sex, because of peer pressure, or not knowing any better, but has since repented, become Orthodox, and lived a good spiritual life since, would you still call them a whore?  If so, then by all rights you should call me a thief.
Out of curiosity Sinjin, if there were 3 people left on Earth, (oh yeah, & a priest, so I guess that would be 4); you (an all-pure example of Orthodox masculinity), me (a Orthodox virgin who in my youth had sticky fingers), and a repentant non-virgin who is a heck of a lot more pious than I am, who would you chose to marry & continue on the human race with?  Actually, never mind, I think me & the non-virgin would just choose to die spinsters, because to live with someone as judgmental as you for the rest of our lives would be a fate worse than a lonely death.
Apparently Sinjin, you're the only one among us who can live in a glass house.  
Anyway, tangent done, time for me to get some work done.
Ania
P.S. You still haven't answered if you would marry someone who was raped or molested, and so has not sinned but is also still physically not a virgin.

[sinjinsmythe]

Ania,
 To answer your question I would marry someone who is raped/molested/assaulted because they did not make the choice. They were forced into committing acts they did not want to do. I would not marry anyone who has a criminal past. I am looking for someone who is like me. As for your other question, I would choose to die alone. If God have given a choice between being born or not, I would choose not to be born. I can't forgive myself, so how do you expect me to forgive others?

[sinjinsmythe]

He will match you up with a sinner though.

Of course, he will.

However, what if she happens to be someone who has never [insert your sin of choice] and does not wish to marry someone who has.

That is her choice to do so.

You may be a virgin, but you have sinned in many other ways. Does God see your sin differently from sexual sin? Why do you?

The old we are all sinners clause. Okay, so are you saying that all sins are the same. That lying is as bad as killing someone?

You and I are both miserable sinners.

Boy...isn't that the truth.

We are sinners, but we are also a people who have been set free from slavery to sin by the death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If a person has commited adultry, but later repented and confessed their sin, or similiarly later became an orthodox christian and had that sin washed away through their regeneration at baptism, God no longer sees that person as an adulterer. As far as God is concerned that person is now as white as snow. Should we see them any differently?

I am sorry but society doesn't. I mean we don't let rapists/child molesters of the hook because they have sincerely repented. Everything talks this great game about forgiveness, yet how much of society truly forgives repented offenses?

[GOD]

I never thought the day would come where I'd have to delete the "word" of "God", but here goes.

Watch it, God.

[ania]

Wow Sinjin, you've set yourself up for a very lonely life.  If people didn't know how to forgive themselves... just the very thought is depressing & scary.  If you can love, then you can forgive.  You remember, "Love thy neighbor as you love thyself."  Apparently God wants you to love yourself at least to some degree, even if it's simply because you yourself are part of God's creation, which means you are supposed to forgive yourself.
So many of the world's problems these day's stem from peoples inability to forgive.  Look at the Middle East, for gosh sakes.  But that's a whole 'nother topic for a whole 'nother day.  So to quote a Southern Baptist I saw on TV a while back... "Let Love into your Life, Halellujah!"
But to end this miandering thought, God forgives because He loves.
You & I should get together, it'd be more interesting to chat face to face.  Perhaps then I can persuade you that not all is black & white, good & bad, saved or destined for H-E-Double Hockey Sticks.
Ania

[ania]

Whoever posted right before me, your disgusting & rude.

[plutonas]

I know I said I'd stop replying to this thread, and maybe I should, but I'm feeling particularly pissed off right now so whatever...

I don't think that God will tell me tomorrow to go out and marry a whore.

You know what?  I seriously believe something like that is gonna happen to me one day.  When I look at what's happened to me so far I can't help but think that God has something like that in store for me in the "grand scheme of things", like God is planning exactly that future for me.  And only because He knows I don't want to marry a whore.  No other reason.  Just to make me even more miserable.  

Like He'll either make me fall in love with some slut who's graphic reference or He'll set me up with a "virgin" who AFTER I marry will only then confess to me that she's graphic reference.  Now that would just be the "icing" to the "cake" which is my life.

I just KNOW this is going to happen.  And on realizing it, I can't but help laugh maniacally.......... let's all point at me and laugh together.  Cuz God's laughing too.

[Frobie]

Dude, get a grip.

[ania]

I second the motion, Frobisher!  Get a shrink while your at it, as well.

[Anastasios]

Instead of attacking members with whom we do not agree, let's try to just pray for each other.  I realize we are all feeling a little angry and shocked at some of the things being said but reality is that not everyone is well formed and catechized in this generation so a lot of alternative ideas are floating around.  Let's focus on reading the scriptures, writings of the fathers, going to liturgy, and putting what we've learned to good use via fasting, prayer, and almsgiving.

anastasios

[plutonas]

I thought this forum wasn't moderated.  Considering that I said nothing more graphic than I did previously in this thread this is a real let down on the part of the easily-intimidated and oversensitive administration.  What can I expect from ultra-religious zealots, though?

This forum is a JOKE.

[Ebor]

Ultra-religious zealots?  They let me and Keble and Boswell stay... we're not EO even.

Ideas can be gotten across without resorting to crudity, maybe?

Plutonas, Why are you so angry?  What has hurt you?

Ebor

edited for lapsed grammar and spelling

[plutonas]

we're not EO even.

Perhaps that's a blessing.  

Ideas can be gotten across without resorting to crudity, maybe?

Of course.  But...

My post which was censored on a supposedly "unmoderated" forum, though containing content of a crude nature, was put in the most eloquent terms possible so as to not be graphic.  Furthermore, I expressed my total indignation towards the sexually deviant acts that were described.

I also felt, and still do, that the censored areas of my post where absolutely essential to stress the point I was making.  They were no more and no less graphic than any other thing I said within this thread anyway.  But now that they have been edited my post is unintelligable.

I have a hard time understanding how anyone of a right mind could have been offended by what I wrote?  There is no logical explanation.  But then again zealotry is known to produce irrationality.

Plutonas, Why are you so angry?  What has hurt you?

I am angry primarily because of the pervading mentality of idealistic buffoonery that I have witnessed here firsthand, secondly because I am consistently attacked and insulted for personal opinions that in no way conflict with the teachings of Orthodoxy, and finally because the administration can not keep to its own rules.  But I am in no way "hurt."

[ania]

If you weren't hurt or angry, you wouldn't be sending me disgustingly graphic pms.  Were you being crude & inappropriate to prove a point, or do you really want me to burn in hell?  
Heaven help ya.
Ania

[Robert]

I have read the offending PM, and frankly I am disguisted.  I have done my best to keep away from board politics, but I cannot let this go without action.  I have removed PM rights from Plutonas's account, and he is now placed on post moderation. This means that any post made by him will need to be approved by a mod/admin for it to appear.

If anyone has any protests to my action, please let me know.

Bobby

[TomS]

Good move, Bobby! I support you!

[David]

Nice, good to see a swift resolution.

[Justin Kissel]

plutonas

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." - James 1:13-15


Say not: "It was God's doing that I fell away"; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: "It was he who set me astray"; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Immense is the wisdom of the LORD; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing. The eyes of God see all he has made; he understands man's every deed. No man does he command to sin, to none does he give strength for lies. - Sir. 15:11-20

[Anastasios]

Just as a clarification:

Yes this is an unmoderated forum but if you read the fine print it clearly says that posts violating forum rules will be junked.

We are considering making the mission statement of the free for all forum more clear to avoid such accusations in the future at any rate.

anastasios

[Bono Vox]

I just read the first page of this thread (after looking at what place the STAR WARS thread ranked on the all time most read thread, and I must say that I find this very interesting.

I do think that sexual promescuity is completely out of controll in the world today; in fact, it is because most of our souls (nous) is constantly bombarded by sexuality in a way that it has never been before in the history of mankind.

Premarital sex is something that hurts us and tears apart our nous.

I agreee with Anastasios, chastity is a state of mind. Just look at St. Mary of Egypt.

If a person cannot forgive a woman (especially one that he loves, and is seeking union with God), then he has a problem with pride and unforgiveness. I'm sure that all of us have commited the sin of lust whethere we slept around or not, and our nous was damaged by it.

In Orthodoxy, we are patients in a hospital, and we are recieving healing whatever our sin is. It is our job to work with God in our healing WHICH INCLUDES FORGIVENESS OF OTHERS even if they had fornicated in the past.

With all of that being said, I do pray to God that our world get healed of this massive sickness of fornication that has polluted it. I worry for my two daughters, and pray that they will be chaste. It is a hard thing in this day and age. I am also really disturbed when I see Orthodox who I know are fornicating going up and recieving communion all the time (I know that we aren't supposed to judge, but I'm talking about when it is flat out obvious and there is no sign of quiting in sight).

Mother Mary of Egypt Pray for us!!

Bagpiper

[penelope]

if the only other option I have is to accept a despoiled creature as my wife, thereby lowering and degrading myself.

'He gave Himself up for her that "He might cleanse and sanctify her..."  So the Church was not pure.  She had blemishes, she was ugly and cheap.  Whatever kind of wife you marry, you will never take a bride like Christ did when He married the Church; you will never marry anyone estranged from you as the Church was from Christ.  Despite all this, He did not abhor or hate her for her extraordinary corruption.  Do you want her corruption described?  Paul says, "For once you were in darkness."  Do you see how black she was?  Nothing is blacker than darkness.  Think of her shamelessness; she passed her day in malice and envy, Paul says.  Look at her impurity; she was foolish and disobedient.  But what am I saying?  She was foolish, her tongue was evil, but even though her wounds were so numerous, He sacrificed Himself for her in her corrupted state, as if she were in the bloom of youth, as if she were dearly beloved, and a wonderful beauty.'
                                                                                                                         -St. John Chrysostom

[Vasya Davidovich]

I had to respond to this thread, not because I could say anything better than what has already been said, but because I feel so much sorrow.

The judgementalism I saw astounded me... and then, on reflection, didn't.  While I have never expressed views as angrily or as crudely as I have seen in this thread, the attitude of my heart was marry-a-virgin-or-perish.  So, I think I understand, a little, the emotional attachment one makes to the idea of marrying a virgin... particularly when you are making sacrifices of your own on a daily basis and losing out in the popularity contest of life.  The world does not respect virgins.

What changed me, and I hope changes you - the posters who share my former views - is a realization of one's own sin.  How dare I examine the mote in another's eye, when I am blinded by my own sins?  How dare I sit in judgement - do I wish judgement to fall on me from on high?  How dare I presume myself to be without lust?  And, yes, Hosea.  Hosea messed with my head, for it brought back to me that Christ loves the Church as God loved Israel.  And God is united to Himself a Bride that was lost in harlotries, and who turns back to them at every opportunity.

Remember, please, that God calls on men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church.  That means dying for her.  That means dying horribly for her.  That means suffering with her.  And that means forgiving her when she whores herself with other men.  For the Church has, like Israel before her, turned again and again to false gods and heresies - the divine equivalent of harlotry.  With that kind of command before us, which few mortal men could ever live up to (and which not even the Church expects of us), I kind of feel that one or two past pre-marital indiscretions are fairly minor.  Don't you?

And lastly, I had given up on finding a virgin.  I knew of none.  And now I have met a lovely young lady who is immeasurably good for me, of whom I am unworthy.  And you know what?  She's a virgin.  With God all things are possible.  Don't let go of that.  Don't let despair swallow you as it had swallowed me.

In Christ, Vasya.

[Elizaveta]

Well, I am a virgin, but I do not have any expectation as to whether I will marry a virgin or non-virgin.  As Prodromos indicated, I don't know what will be required for my salvation where a spouse is concerned.  I also do not feel it is Christian to condemn someone for past mistakes.  That is not Christ-like at all.

There are many impure virgins, just as there are many pure non-virgins.  It's about the condition of the heart and soul, not an anatomical barrier.  To me, love and devotion to the Church, as well as personal character, is much more important than what sin they may have committed in years past.  I would be horrified if someone rejected me for a past sin, so I won't do it to someone else.

[calligraphqueen]

Seriously? Is there like absolutely no pressure whatsover on women FROM the male dominated society? Are men not famous for lying and saying they deeply love a women, when in fact they are just trying to get sex? Some of you are being entirely too hard on one component in this scenario, when there are two components to call out.

And more importantly, the whole issue of fixation on sexuality here does make one wonder how truly pure the man is. Scripture is clear on what constitutes sexual sin, and its not just the physical act of sex before marriage. There is softcore porn on regular television, in ads at the grocery checkout, on the internet, billboards, and in stores/malls. I would have a really difficult time believing a couple of you are nearly as "pure as the driven snow" as you think you are. In God's eyes a man that has lusted after a woman with his eyes and his heart and mind is just as defiled. The standard is the same, and the bar is just as high for men-who probably have it somewhat harder in that they are made to be visually stimulated- in a society that provides a smorgasbord of stimulation.  I spent years in private Christian school and I can't tell you the amount of sexual pressure that comes from supposedly 'christian' men-including our Bible professors!!

I don't suggest that sexual purity is NOT important, I am suggesting that there is far more to it than some of your limited expectations of getting to be the only 'deflowerer' of a woman. If you have visually, or mentally 'deflowered' anyone EVER (even imaginary women), you are just as guilty. What a man thinks on, that is his heart.

I can lament the lack of Orthodox singles a bit, I have kids heading straight into that mess. We have little options as Orthodox in the South for our children, so spread out are we. But anyone as judgmental as a few of you guys would not be competent mates for my beautiful intelligent daughters anyway. Sin is sin in God's eyes, and the measure with which you would judge my daughter (even as virgins) would give me pause. A haughty man, a judgmental arrogant man? Marriage is freakishly hard enough, I honestly would have a hard time condoning it if this is the kind of Orthodox men left!

[Fr. George]

^ You may want to word parts of your argument (like "some of you are being entirely too hard") in the past tense, since all but 4 posts (now 6) are from 2003 and, thus, firmly in the past.  There are a number of people involved in this discussion who no longer post here, btw.

Otherwise, carry on.  I don't want to stifle your response to the thread just because it's old - we're a discussion forum, for Pete's sake.

[Marc1152]

How can someone who has not had premarital sex get married and build intimacy with a spouse who has slept around?  

When my husband I married 5 years ago, neither one of us were virgins.  I know that at the time I married I wished that I had remained a virgin.  However, the fact that we were not virgins has not kept us from building a wonderful, intimate relationship.  Neither one of us ever think about the other people we were with.  Now, it truly seems like I was never with anyone else.  

Let me ask you:  say you married and were then widowed (maybe at a relatively young age).  You found someone else who was also widowed.  Could you not marry and build an intimate relationship with that new spouse simply because they had slept with someone else?  

I realize there is a difference between a girl who has been with one or two other guys and a girl who's been with the whole football team.  Most of my friends, though not virigns, had not been with a lot of guys; I don't think it would be too hard to find a girl like that.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with trying to find someone who is a virgin; in fact, I think it's a good thing that you want to find someone who hasn't slept around.  But I just wanted to say that I don't think it's impossible to build an intimate relationship with someone who is not a virgin.

ummmm.. It's a bit sexist to judge women on the details of their past sexual experiences as if they are "spoiled goods". .  How's about finding someone who is generous , a pious Christian and potential good mother or already a good mother? This kind of judgementalism makes my teeth itch. Your milage may vary

[Rosehip]

Ironically, I've heard more of the opposite lately-men only want women with "experience".

[Gabriel]

Ironically, I've heard more of the opposite lately-men only want women with "experience".

LOL.

There's a running gag that I've come up with (though, I think a lot of people just come up with this on their own).

Why exactly would Muslims want a mess of virgins?  Why wouldn't they want a mess of female ne'er-do-wells who actually know what they're doing?

 

I'm kind of the same way (in moderation), but I suppose the reverse could be fun.  Learning together and all that.

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