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Author Topic: Women lie about their sex lives  (Read 16109 times) Average Rating: 0
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sinjinsmythe
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« on: July 21, 2003, 02:55:13 PM »

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20030715-114921-5957r.htm
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2003, 11:00:30 PM »

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The study also showed significant differences in the ages participants reported when asked how old they were when they became sexually active.
   
Women and men reported about the same age when they were told they could be linked to their responses, 16.8 and 16.2 years old, respectively.
   
When the results were anonymous, however, there was a "real flip-flop," Miss Fisher said.
   
Men reported an average age of 17, while women reported an age of 15.8 years old.
   
"Females mature a couple years faster than males at puberty," Miss Fisher said. "It makes sense to me where females become sexually active faster. Typically, the female is ready for some kind of relationship before the typical male."
   
When hooked up to the bogus lie detector, males reported that they had been 16.3 years old when they became sexually active and females reported they had been 16.5 years old.

I'm never gonna find a virgin.....
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2003, 11:13:24 PM »

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The study also showed significant differences in the ages participants reported when asked how old they were when they became sexually active.
   
Women and men reported about the same age when they were told they could be linked to their responses, 16.8 and 16.2 years old, respectively.
   
When the results were anonymous, however, there was a "real flip-flop," Miss Fisher said.
   
Men reported an average age of 17, while women reported an age of 15.8 years old.
   
"Females mature a couple years faster than males at puberty," Miss Fisher said. "It makes sense to me where females become sexually active faster. Typically, the female is ready for some kind of relationship before the typical male."
   
When hooked up to the bogus lie detector, males reported that they had been 16.3 years old when they became sexually active and females reported they had been 16.5 years old.

I'm never gonna find a virgin.....


I agree with you.  It is pretty despairing these days.  It forces the one to ask the question why be a virgin your in all likelihood your future spouse probably won't be one?
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plutonas
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2003, 11:50:56 PM »

I agree with you.  It is pretty despairing these days.  It forces the one to ask the question why be a virgin your in all likelihood your future spouse probably won't be one?

Well, for me it's not much of a choice anyway, if you know what I mean.  But I know what you're saying.  

However, since I absolutely refuse to marry a woman that has been deflowered (no matter how much I loved her) I'll probably end up never getting married for this reason, and dying alone.  Man, I have so much to look forward to.....

oh well, just another reason why I should give myself entirely to the syringe.
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2003, 02:49:02 AM »

I would think the reason for sexual chastity is not if one's spouse is going to be a virgin, but that it is a commandment of the Lord.  I also think a gynecological examine is a bit much don't you think?  Almost in the same category as a prenuptial agreement,  I would think.
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2003, 02:58:41 AM »

I would think the reason for sexual chastity is not if one's spouse is going to be a virgin, but that it is a commandment of the Lord.  I also think a gynecological examine is a bit much don't you think?  Almost in the same category as a prenuptial agreement,  I would think.
Nilus

I don't think you understand.  I could explain it further but then again that is probably a waste of time since many, especially in the Orthodox church, have no idea what it is like to be a single person in today's world.
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2003, 03:09:15 AM »

I know what it is like, and I also think the churches attitude towards sex is in serious need of being re thought out.  In Biblical times puberty and social independence came around the same time, now the time difference gets greater and greater, as one graduates from college around 21 that leaves almost 10 years of hormones a raging, with no satisfaction.  I am not a stick in the mud when it comes to this.  The reason I found for myself was it is utterly wrong to use people for my own gratification.  Sure a night in the sack seems good, but where is love in that, where is committment, where is dying to self, nowhere, when it means a night of not burning in lust.  I grew up in the free love era of the 60's and 70's so these issues are not foreign to me.
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2003, 03:24:03 AM »

Perhaps the church's position needs to be re-thought.  I doubt that is going to happen anytime soon.  We are too busy fighting our jurisdictional wars and other stupid crap.  I was only lamenting(along with Plutonas) about the chances of meeting someone who has not had 12 sexual partners. Virginity seems to be out of fashion.  What is be the purpose of being pure? Because God says so? I mean I think I know why.  How can someone who has not had premarital sex get married and build intimacy with a spouse who has slept around?
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2003, 03:29:58 AM »

I am sure there are women who feel the same way, but the issue is finding them.  And for myself the longer you wait to get married, the chances of finding an innocent woman gets less and less, and the baggage they carry and we carry gets more and more.  There is a reason marriage is called martyrdom.  
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2003, 06:35:40 AM »

How can someone who has not had premarital sex get married and build intimacy with a spouse who has slept around?  

When my husband I married 5 years ago, neither one of us were virgins.  I know that at the time I married I wished that I had remained a virgin.  However, the fact that we were not virgins has not kept us from building a wonderful, intimate relationship.  Neither one of us ever think about the other people we were with.  Now, it truly seems like I was never with anyone else.  

Let me ask you:  say you married and were then widowed (maybe at a relatively young age).  You found someone else who was also widowed.  Could you not marry and build an intimate relationship with that new spouse simply because they had slept with someone else?  

I realize there is a difference between a girl who has been with one or two other guys and a girl who's been with the whole football team.  Most of my friends, though not virigns, had not been with a lot of guys; I don't think it would be too hard to find a girl like that.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with trying to find someone who is a virgin; in fact, I think it's a good thing that you want to find someone who hasn't slept around.  But I just wanted to say that I don't think it's impossible to build an intimate relationship with someone who is not a virgin.
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2003, 12:41:07 PM »

I would think the reason for sexual chastity is not if one's spouse is going to be a virgin, but that it is a commandment of the Lord.

I don't care whether it is a commandment of the Lord or not.  Even if Orthodoxy was extremely liberal when it came to sex I still would seek out a virgin because it is important to me personally.

But it's a shame how some religious people are willing to blindly accept dogma without first understanding the reasoning behind it.  And that's just ignorance, not faith.

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I also think a gynecological examine is a bit much don't you think?  Almost in the same category as a prenuptial agreement,  I would think.

Whoever said anything about a gynecological examination?  If someone needs a gynecological exam to figure out if his fiancee is a a virgin or not then it's quite obvious that there are already some major problems in the relationship -- namely regarding trust.

I mean I think I know why.  How can someone who has not had premarital sex get married and build intimacy with a spouse who has slept around?  

As far as I'm concerned, it isn't possible.  Especially if, like me, you possess a view that women are either purely virginal or irredeemable whores.

When my husband I married 5 years ago, neither one of us were virgins.  I know that at the time I married I wished that I had remained a virgin.  However, the fact that we were not virgins has not kept us from building a wonderful, intimate relationship. er think about the other people we were with.  Now, it truly seems like I was never with anyone else.  

You obviously weren't paying attention to what the man said.  He asked how it could ever be possible for a virgin and non-virgin to find some sort of intimacy between each other -- not whether two non-virgins could.  The two situations are completely different from one another and, as such, everything you said is rendered moot.
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2003, 01:26:16 PM »

Plutonas,

The idea that women are either purely virginal or whores is not consistent with Orthodoxy.  Everyone makes mistakes.  I think it is a cultural thing that thanfully is dying out.

Chastity is a state of mind.  If someone had sex before but regretted it and then lives chastely, the fact of previous sexual experiene will mean nothing to the current relationship.

Plutonas, in all seriousness, are men either purely chaste or irredeamable man-whores also?  There usually is a double standard about this.

That you say no matter how much you love someone you wouldn't marry them if they were a non-virgin either 1) you would have fallen in love with someone you knew you could not marry which would mean you had spent lots of time with them which would have been irresponsible given your knowing you couldn't marry them or 2) you have not really experienced the fullness of love.  I know once I fell in love with my now-wife, nothing could stop me from being with her.  I was acting stupid so she broke up with me for awhile before marriage and she ended up dating another guy.  You know what though, I never asked her about that fellow because I don't care as long as I got her back, because being without her was hell.  She obviously agreed cuz she dumped that dude and we were back together and married in 8 months.

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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2003, 01:54:37 PM »

The view that women are either purely virginal or irredeemable whores probably isn't consistent with Orthodoxy.  But it's consistent with my own world-view and that's all that matters to me.  As for it being a "cultural phenomena", it's not -- at least for me anyway.

Maybe you're right in saying that a person who regrets losing their virginity will view the past sexual experience as meaningless but nevertheless the experience WILL have effected their lives and way of thinking in some way -- hence their purity, from their previous state, in some form, has been lost.

Plus, something just doesn't sit right with me knowing that my hypothetical wife could have potentially performed fellatio and been anally penetrated by dozens of guys.  Maybe it's just me, but I don't like that thought....

As for men who sleep around with lots of women -- since I'm not going to marry any of them, it's not exactly a "pressing question" for me but women certainly have the right to expect their spouses to be virgins if they have remained virgins themselves.  

Now as for your appraisal of me, it fails to take into account a third possibility: that I was with a woman who had assured me was a virgin, fell in love with her, and then she broke the news that she had just lied to me (and after reading the news article above, it's not exactly an implausible thing to happen, is it?). Now if I had married this woman, and she had broken this news to me after the marriage (which wouldn't be below a woman to do), I would certainly be in my rights to demand a divorce.
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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2003, 02:30:21 PM »

Plutonas,

Yes, the third could have happened and I should have accounted for it. Nevertheless, I know plenty of women who only had sex with one guy not dozens.

You have a right to your own feelings and preferences but I just think I detect a view of women that is not positive.  If you were lied to by a previous woman then that would probably be understandable.

I will pray that you find a nice woman who will be everything you need, spiritually, emotionally, and physically.

I respect the fact that you do not hold a double standard like many, at least, in that you say a woman should expect the same from her partner.

Talk to you later,

anastasios
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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2003, 02:41:04 PM »

Today is the feast of St. Mary Magdalane, Equal to the Apostles. I think her story speaks for the Church's view on this sort of thing...at least what it should be.

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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2003, 02:58:01 PM »

plutonas,
In case you didn't know already, using a tampon will eliminate part of the "evidence" of virginity.  I know it sounds difficult, but you may want to rethink your position on the virginity requirement for marriage (it's difficult for me as well!).

Anastasios,
A little too much info.  Don't care about the details.  Wink


Everyone,
Am I inferring something wrong, or is someone saying that it is an Orthodox requirement to be a virgin before marriage (well, I know required, I'm just saying practically speaking - as in no priest will marry you).  I've never heard of this happening.
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2003, 02:59:54 PM »

Elisha,  I thought I was being vague.  You don't know even a fourth of the story!  It is much more complex than you can imagine! :-)

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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2003, 03:00:48 PM »

When my husband I married 5 years ago, neither one of us were virgins.  I know that at the time I married I wished that I had remained a virgin.  However, the fact that we were not virgins has not kept us from building a wonderful, intimate relationship.  Neither one of us ever think about the other people we were with.  Now, it truly seems like I was never with anyone else.  
As Plutonas said, I was asking about how a virgin and a non-virgin can build sexual intimacy in a marriage.  Anyway, you don't seem to be endorsing virginity, by that you are not totally bummed about not being a virgin on your wedding day.

Quote
Let me ask you:  say you married and were then widowed (maybe at a relatively young age).  You found someone else who was also widowed.  Could you not marry and build an intimate relationship with that new spouse simply because they had slept with someone else?  

If I was a widower, I don't think I would re-marry. Depending on the situation I would consider monasticism.

Quote
I realize there is a difference between a girl who has been with one or two other guys and a girl who's been with the whole football team.  Most of my friends, though not virigns, had not been with a lot of guys; I don't think it would be too hard to find a girl like that.

I'm sorry but I am sure that the Orthodox Church and God himself doesn't see it that way. You are telling me there is a difference between a person who has slept with one or two other people and the whole football team? What is the point of me being a virgin then? Whatever happened to being pure and having only one person for the rest of your life? Whatever happened to building an intimacy over time? So it is not so bad to have sex with a few people and not ten? That is pathetic.

Quote
I am not saying that there is anything wrong with trying to find someone who is a virgin; in fact, I think it's a good thing that you want to find someone who hasn't slept around.  But I just wanted to say that I don't think it's impossible to build an intimate relationship with someone who is not a virgin.  

I guess Plutonas and I are two aliens from another planet on this whole entire issue. I realize we live in a more sexually liberated time and it is sad.  So much for being chaste up to your marriage, might as well go out and get some experience with one or two others. This whole thread is just plain despairing. Sad

By the way, I believe men should be virgins too until their wedding day, but then again given this thread, why bother being a virgin anymore :'(
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2003, 03:01:18 PM »

Plutonas:

I regret that I cannot tell you from personal experience whether intimacy between a non-virgin and a virgin is possible.  I can, however, report that close friends I have, who fit that particular scenario, have found intimacy not only possible, but a blessed fact.

I'm glad Frobisher pointed out the Saint whose feast day it is today.  Because your personal views--insofar as you have expressed them and I have understood them--seem at such variance with Church teaching.

Yes, the Church obligates us to marital purity (including physical virginity).  And you are right to demand that high standard of yourself and of the future woman you want to be your wife.

But you seem to come from a viewpoint that views the consequences of sexual sin as pragmatically irredeemable.  That is to say, it appears that you think one can be forgiven, but in terms of the daily work of intimacy, it's essentially over if physical purity has been lost.

This does not seem to me to be consonant with the teaching of the Church on repentance and theosis.  This is not to say that God would somehow miraculously restore the physical components of virginity.  But it is to say that the ontological aspects of purity may indeed are restored through confession, repentance and askesis.

I guess what I'm trying to express is don't worry.  Sure it's personally important to you to maintain and to marry someone who also has mainted sexual purity.  And I'd be a fool to tell you to "get real" and bring your ideals down to modern reality.  (And I'd be a teacher of false doctrine.)  But there are plenty of virginal marriages that don't last because of many other factors, and plenty of non-virginal marriages (one or both partners) that do last.

In short, if a girl you find attractive is one with whom you can worship, pray and play, and with whom you have "fallen in love" it would not doom your relationship if she (or, perhaps you) were to have failed.  The greatest of whores have become saints, after all, men and women.
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2003, 03:01:38 PM »

Elisha,

I think Plutonas was speaking more to the "you should be able to tell if you mate is lying" aspect not the strict physiological aspect.  Oh and too much information re that! ;-)

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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2003, 03:05:19 PM »

Sexual sins are not a big deal compared with the important stuff. People who worry too much about them end up falling into more sexual sins!!!

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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2003, 03:06:33 PM »

You are telling me there is a difference between a person who has slept with one or two other people and the whole football team? What is the point of me being a virgin then? Whatever happened to being pure and having only one person for the rest of your life? Whatever happened to building an intimacy over time? So it is not so bad to have sex with a few people and not ten? That is pathetic.

WOW!  Of course there is a difference! God recognizes degrees of sin! A woman or man who has sex with one person before marriage versus one who goes around screwing a football team is a big difference!!!

It is not pathetic, it is the way life is in this screwed up modern world.  People make mistakes.  If Jesus can look past them so can you!  St Theodora was bascially a whore but St. Justinian married her and they found true love.


The reason YOU should remain a virgin is because YOU know it is wrong.  But life is NOT black and white.  You are basically asking "oh well if everyone else is doing it so shouldn't I?"

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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2003, 03:11:15 PM »

However, since I absolutely refuse to marry a woman that has been deflowered (no matter how much I loved her) I'll probably end up never getting married for this reason, and dying alone.  

Excuse me, but you can't be serious??!!!

Who are YOU to judge? Have YOU not sinned in the past?

Why are your many sins able to be forgiven, but not a young woman who made a mistake before she knew the consequences of her action?

If this person is truly sorry for the mistake she made in the past and has repented before her God, then YOU will be the one judged for your inability to forgive.

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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2003, 03:15:16 PM »


But you seem to come from a viewpoint that views the consequences of sexual sin as pragmatically irredeemable.  That is to say, it appears that you think one can be forgiven, but in terms of the daily work of intimacy, it's essentially over if physical purity has been lost.

Here is the parable of the locket and where locket is , substitute sex.
A boy buys a locket for his girlfriend. They break up. Every time he has a girlfriend and has to get a gift, he can think of no better gift than that locket. When he gets married and goes to buy a gift for his bride, he finds himself looking at the same locket. Although he wants to get something else, that is the most perfect gift he can think of, so he gets it. As he puts it around her neck, he cannot help but remember every girl he ever gave the locket to.

Obviously everytime you have sex with someone you are giving a piece of yourself away.
Quote

I guess what I'm trying to express is don't worry.  
It is something to worry about when it is important to one personally.
Quote
But there are plenty of virginal marriages that don't last because of many other factors, and plenty of non-virginal marriages (one or both partners) that do last.

Of course virginal marriages fail, but that doesn't endorse losing your virginity before your wedding night.
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In short, if a girl you find attractive is one with whom you can worship, pray and play, and with whom you have "fallen in love" it would not doom your relationship if she (or, perhaps you) were to have failed.  

CDHealy, are you married? It would not doom the relationship if my future spouse was not a virgin? Read what I said above about sex and the locket. I don't think you understand.  By the way, you seem to be condoning losing virginity....I don't that the holy fathers would take such a softy stance that you take.

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The greatest of whores have become saints, after all, men and women.
True, but what are the chances of finding someone who is like that? Seriously my friend especially in this era of human history.
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2003, 03:18:01 PM »




You are basically asking "oh well if everyone else is doing it so shouldn't I?"

anastasios

Yes I am.  [sarcasm] I mean what is the big deal after all if God will forgive and it is not so bad[/sarcasm].
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2003, 03:18:16 PM »

By the way, I believe men should be virgins too until their wedding day, but then again given this thread, why bother being a virgin anymore :'(


No, No, No -- I am saying that the person made a mistake BEFORE they understood that it was a sin.

As an Orthodox Christian you MUST forgive that person if they truly repent. And if you choose to hold it against them as the ONLY reason you would not MARRY them, then you have NOT truly forgiven them.

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« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2003, 03:25:24 PM »

I bet 99.999% of us are guilty of sexual sins. We are all human and that's why God became man. St. Basil the Great is quoted in the Philokalia (Vol. 1) saying, "I have known not woman, yet I am not a virgin."

We are to be made into a new creation and not just cling to the old. Again, I think if you are struggling with this stuff and accusing others of things, then you are clinging too hard. The pharisees who wanted to stone the harlot may not have done anything for 40 years, but they are the ones going to hell for judging that woman whom Jesus loved.

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« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2003, 03:38:00 PM »

Maybe if you assume lack of virginity, then if you later found out she was a virgin would make more sense.  It comes down to trust, and fretting about it is not going to cause it to go away.  I would think virginity is least of one's worries in getting married, the bigger question is do you get along, do you look at problems from the same sort of value systems, etc.  For any marriage to work, forgiveness is a must, and if you can not forgive a woman who has had sex in the past, long before she knew you, then maybe you should consider not getting married at all, and go to a monastery.
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« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2003, 03:43:11 PM »

Sinjin,

OK you basically ask why.  So if this is a really big issue for you then pray that God will find you a virgin specifically.

I am not going to presume to tell you HOW to do go about it as we have had this discussion before (ie lack of available women for young Orthodox men) but I am just saying that God will provide if it is his will.

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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2003, 04:09:06 PM »

anastasios, thank you sir!  I'd do the same for you, but you're already married as you mentioned previously.

Elisha, like I told nilus, who ever said anything about gynecological examinations and the like???  If there didn't exist enough trust in the relationship for one partner to believe what the other said, what good would a physical test do?

sinjinsmythe, along with completely agreeing on the points you made I want to also say that I laughed out loud when I read that comment you made about us being aliens from another planet

The funny thing is that this hasn't been the only thread where me and you have been "singled out" in our opinions, as it were.  We'll always be misunderstood it seems...

CDHealy, I do understand what you're saying about the "ontological aspects of purity" being restored through through confession, repentance, and askesis but even so I still could not forgive the loss of virginity even if God did.  For me this is a deeply personal thing which symbolizes more, and goes far beyond, than just a question of an individual's purity.  It has a lot to do with the things that form the very basis of my world-view...

Personally, I'd much rather be alone than in wedlock to someone who refused to wait for me, like I did for them.
   
TomS, what are you saying?  That I have NO right to expect certain things from a person I wish to spend the rest of my life with?  That there should be no standards whatsoever when I go to choose my wife?  Are you sure YOU aren't the one not being serious?

And please don't deal me this "not knowing the consequences of her action" thing.  She didn't jaywalk or park in the wrong area, she allowed another human being to do very intimate (maybe even sickening, revolting) things to her and she reciprocated them as well.  It was a conscious choice and as such there must be consequences for it.  

Yes, it's true we all make mistakes, but it's also true that we must take responsibility for them.  

As for God judging me for not forgiving her for a shameless debauchery and loss of all self-respect, well, in that case I can do nothing but gladly accept my fate.  Let me be judged and let me be damned even, if the only other option I have is to accept a despoiled creature as my wife, thereby lowering and degrading myself.
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« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2003, 04:19:43 PM »

My Gosh...
With all the problems in the world today, you would demand a virgin, & not someone who, besides putting up with your bad habbits, can share your joys & sorrows?  (Not that, if your lucky, you can't have both).  You will place the rest of your life, your spiritual & physical happiness, on one flimsy peice of tissue???
People make mistakes, that's the way it is.  You remember, a good part of the Church's teaching is about lost sheep, and how Christ got them back!  The whole concept of confession is to make yourself pure again.  If you honestly, whole-heartedly, and humbly confessed your sins, then when you walk out of confession, your are pure until you sin again.  
If both marriage partners are virgins, that's great, good for them!  Honestly, I know that is the way it's supposed to be.  But, I know plenty of people (my close family members included) who either were sexually active before marriage, or married somebody who was.  As yet, most of them are doing alright, and those who are having problems aren't having problems because one or both went to the marriage bed not a virgin.  
Before people jump down my throat and say I'm advocating sexual activity, I'd like to say I AM NOT!!!  However, I see the sin of not forgiving, knowingly condemning someone who is/was sexually active far greater than the sin of the person your not forgiving.
And, before anyone starts wondering, YES, <<gasp>> I am a virgin.
(See, there are Orthodox girls who are still virgins out there Roll Eyes)
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« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2003, 04:34:15 PM »

Of course virginal marriages fail, but that doesn't endorse losing your virginity before your wedding night.

Re-read my post.  I think I very clearly stated I do not condone losing one's virginity.  Also, note the content of Plutonas' posts.  He has stated he couldn't forgive even if God could.  This is an extremely dangerous state of heart. (Cf. our Lord's words on the matter.)  My comment about "not worrying" was an attempt to bring him back from the edge of danger.

CDHealy, are you married? It would not doom the relationship if my future spouse was not a virgin? Read what I said above about sex and the locket. I don't think you understand.  By the way, you seem to be condoning losing virginity....I don't that the holy fathers would take such a softy stance that you take.

I am married, and expecting our first child in a matter of days.  I will not go into the details of my and my spouse's sexual histories, but suffice it to say, the loss of sexual purity/virginity was something with which we had to deal.  So I know from personal experience the loss of virginity, would not doom your relationship with your future spouse.  Yes, there would be significant effects through which you both would have to work, but you would not be doomed.  And once again, clearly now and for the record: I DO NOT CONDONE LOSING ONE'S VIRGINITY.
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« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2003, 04:37:11 PM »

Sinjim, now's your chance......  Wink

This discussion is so very hypothetical. Obviously it matters if the person whom you are planning to marry gives signs that they are likely to be unfaithful. But that's the point. It is the person. If you are not courting, then it's al rather moot. If you are courting, then it is that person who must be addressed and loved, and if all you can do is evaluate him/her on the basis of virginity, you fail to forgive, and you serve yourself, not the other.
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« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2003, 04:43:49 PM »


TomS, what are you saying?  That I have NO right to expect certain things from a person I wish to spend the rest of my life with?  That there should be no standards whatsoever when I go to choose my wife?  Are you sure YOU aren't the one not being serious?

If you want to take it to that extreme, then YES, that is exactly what I am saying, because you are judging that person based upon who they were BEFORE. That is no longer relevant, that is unless you reject the teachings of the Church.

And please don't deal me this "not knowing the consequences of her action" thing.  She didn't jaywalk or park in the wrong area, she allowed another human being to do very intimate (maybe even sickening, revolting) things to her and she reciprocated them as well.  It was a conscious choice and as such there must be consequences for it.  Yes, it's true we all make mistakes, but it's also true that we must take responsibility for them.  

What is wrong with saying that? Am I not correct? Stop taking YOUR current values system and trying to apply it her past. IT IS NOT RELEVANT!

But she IS taking responibility for them -- that is why she has asked for forgiveness.

As for God judging me for not forgiving her for a shameless debauchery and loss of all self-respect, well, in that case I can do nothing but gladly accept my fate.  Let me be judged and let me be damned even

Hey, have it your way, pal. There is plenty of rope.

.. if the only other option I have is to accept a despoiled creature as my wife, thereby lowering and degrading myself.

IF you truly applied the teaching of the Orthodox Church, she would not be.


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« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2003, 04:44:47 PM »

This forum is overrun with males!!!!!!

Oh man you guys. A sin is a sin. If a woman falls, and if a man falls, they repent and if they are truly repentant God will forgive them. Gluttony is a sin. How many of you have confessed gluttony? Pride? Would I not marry someone because they have a tendency to be prideful? Or they have been gluttoness one a particular Thanksgiving? Were you truly sorry for what you did? Then you are forgiven. We all fall into sin one way or another, and it is prideful and rude of you guys to criticize the females out there that have fallen into sin and are TRULY repentant. It is just plain rude and prideful.


On that note - what about St. Mary of Egypt?? She was a PROSTITUTE!!!!!! Heck with a whole football team! She repented! She is now a saint!!!! A greatly revered saint!!
Now, I want to know how many of you guys wouldn't want to marry her!! Because she slept with some people. She repented!!!!!!!!! She is a saint!!!! How can you say that a woman who you might consider marrying but has slept with someone might not be a saint!!!! You might miss the opportunity of your life.

enough said.

and, like ania (well-said in your post, btw) I am not promoting promiscuity but I am promoting repentance and forgiveness. And yes, I am still a virgin.
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« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2003, 04:51:35 PM »

Kukla:

Would you be offended if I gave a very hearty, one-time Protestant "AMEN!"?

I wanted to keep my post/replies short, but the desert fathers have always indicated a close relationship between gluttony and lust.  And it would seem our Lord had a thing or two to say about lust.  How many of us men have remained physical virgins while consuming all sorts of pornography (both "soft" as in the Victoria Secrets show on television--and the more disgusting "hard core")?  Seems to me to be a big disconnect.  This is not to say that it's easy for guys to maintain purity of mind in our U. S. culture given the trend in women's fashions (bare midriffs, bare shoulders, low-cut jeans which intentionally reveal underwear selection--need I go on?).  I'm not blaming women.  God knows we men should take Job's vow and make a covenant with our eyes.

It just blows me away that one on issue, the consensus of the forum was to "liberalize" Church/Scriptural strictures on intimate partnerships with non-Christians (which I was against), yet on this issue, the consensus seems to be "no virginity, no wife, no forgiveness."  Sheesh.
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« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2003, 04:54:13 PM »

and if, as someone said, God might forgive someone for falling into sin with a man, but YOU (whoever said it) won't then-

do you view St. Mary of Egypt as a saint? Seeing that you can't forgive her for her promiscuity, she must not be a saint in your eyes?

How can anyone say they cannot forgive something that God forgives? It is not up to us to judge other people's acts... and if God forgives, we have  NO CHOICE but to forgive also. If it is a personal choice to not marry someone who is not a virgin, then so be it. But do not word it that you don't forgive that person. That is VERY dangerous.
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« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2003, 04:58:31 PM »

wow... I just realized I wrote "gluttoness" wow...

sorry about that guys.. I've been tutoring spanish all day today. My Russian/Spanish/English get all confused sometimes and my english spelling is getting worse by the day :-p

as for the protestant amen: haha not offended!  Wink In fact, I used to be presbyterian, so it reminds me of the old days Smiley
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« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2003, 05:03:25 PM »

This forum is overrun with males!!!!!!

I am sorry for being born a male.



Quote
How can you say that a woman who you might consider marrying but has slept with someone might not be a saint!!!! You might miss the opportunity of your life.



The chances of someone becoming a saint are very, very slim.
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« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2003, 05:08:46 PM »

This forum is overrun with males!!!!!!

I am sorry for being born a male.



Quote
How can you say that a woman who you might consider marrying but has slept with someone might not be a saint!!!! You might miss the opportunity of your life.



The chances of someone becoming a saint are very, very slim.

but for you to judge beforehand is unfair. What are the chances that you would have guessed St. Mary of Egypt would become a saint? How can you condemn women who have fallen when you dont know their level of repentance? And even if a woman might not be a saint, who is to say she won't enter heaven? Or help you with your salvation? If you meet the right woman, certain things won't matter.
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« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2003, 05:18:07 PM »

This is going to be my last response on this topic because I'm getting pissed off with the attitudes I'm getting from a supposedly 'Christian' crowd.

My Gosh...
With all the problems in the world today, you would demand a virgin, & not someone who, besides putting up with your bad habbits, can share your joys & sorrows?  (Not that, if your lucky, you can't have both).  You will place the rest of your life, your spiritual & physical happiness, on one flimsy peice of tissue???

Who ever said that virginity was the ONLY thing we were expecting???  Some of you really make WAY too many assumptions about what was said.... If I was looking for a virgin and nothing else I'd go to Saudi Arabia, or Africa, or India and find a wife.  Obviously that isn't the case.

Hey, have it your way, pal. There is plenty of rope.

I'm not your pal.  Nor would I ever want to be.  So keep that in mind when speaking to me again.  Actually, scratch that -- just don't speak to me again.  Period.

Oh, and one last thing just because you decided to marry some 'woman' who has probably seen more action than a NY hooker, doesn't mean the rest of us have to, okay?  Thanks for understanding, 'buddy.'
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« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2003, 05:26:19 PM »

Oh, and one last thing just because you decided to marry some 'woman' who has probably seen more action than a NY hooker, doesn't mean the rest of us have to, okay?

New Jersey hooker, my friend. New Jersey.

 Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2003, 05:27:06 PM »

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his is going to be my last response on this topic because I'm getting pissed off with the attitudes I'm getting from a supposedly 'Christian' crowd.

ironic
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« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2003, 05:31:01 PM »

Kukla, you say that certain things don't matter? I guess everyone has certain things that are important to them. Perhaps this is not important to you, but it is something that is important to me.
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« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2003, 05:33:42 PM »

I completely agree with you Tom. There seems to be a lot of judging going on in this thread. Sexual sins are certainly not the only sins. As long as someone is repentant and has reformed their lives, their past should not be an issue IMO.

In Christ,
Tony

However, since I absolutely refuse to marry a woman that has been deflowered (no matter how much I loved her) I'll probably end up never getting married for this reason, and dying alone.  

Excuse me, but you can't be serious??!!!

Who are YOU to judge? Have YOU not sinned in the past?

Why are your many sins able to be forgiven, but not a young woman who made a mistake before she knew the consequences of her action?

If this person is truly sorry for the mistake she made in the past and has repented before her God, then YOU will be the one judged for your inability to forgive.


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« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2003, 05:37:47 PM »

... but just a question, from another p.o.v.-

What if your best guy friend fell and slept with a girl? He realized after it that he was wrong, went to confession, was truly repentent and vowed to never let it happen again until after marriage. Would you discourage him from dating virgins? Would you wish him to marry a non-virgin? Or would you respect him because he realized his error, repented, and lived a chaste life after? Or would you not associate with him, not forgive him, and criticize him if he dated a virgin, or married a virgin? Who would have the greater sin? The man who fell and felt truly repentent? Or the man who continued to judge even after God had granted forgiveness? And would you actually discourage him from marrying a virgin? Even though he had received forgiveness from God and changed his ways? Would that be fair for you? Would it be fair for me to do the same with my best girl friend?

Just like one-time gluttony will not ruin a chef for the rest of his career, one-time falling into lust will not ruin a repentent Christian's future marriage.

sorry... bad bad analogy, but like I said, my brain is fried :-p
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« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2003, 05:47:51 PM »

This is going to be my last response on this topic because I'm getting pissed off with the attitudes I'm getting from a supposedly 'Christian' crowd.

I'm sorry, I fail to understand.  We're talking sin, repentance and forgiveness.  Seems very Christian to me.

On the other hand, not forgiving . . . "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." (Matthew 18:35 NKJV)
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« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2003, 05:49:42 PM »

... but just a question, from another p.o.v.-

What if your best guy friend fell and slept with a girl? He realized after it that he was wrong, went to confession, was truly repentent and vowed to never let it happen again until after marriage. Would you discourage him from dating virgins? Would you wish him to marry a non-virgin? Or would you respect him because he realized his error, repented, and lived a chaste life after? Or would you not associate with him, not forgive him, and criticize him if he dated a virgin, or married a virgin? Who would have the greater sin? The man who fell and felt truly repentent? Or the man who continued to judge even after God had granted forgiveness? And would you actually discourage him from marrying a virgin? Even though he had received forgiveness from God and changed his ways? Would that be fair for you? Would it be fair for me to do the same with my best girl friend?

Just like one-time gluttony will not ruin a chef for the rest of his career, one-time falling into lust will not ruin a repentent Christian's future marriage.

sorry... bad bad analogy, but like I said, my brain is fried :-p

I will be honest here, and it may shock some people.  I would criticize him for dating a virgin.  I would mock him for marrying a virgin, because that virgin could have married another virgin.  Life is not fair, that is what I have learned.   Just because God forgives you does not mean all things are well. What about someone who kills someone else? He goes to church repents and confesses his sin, truly repented and vowed to never fall again. God has forgiven him, so why doesn't society forgive him and let him out of jail? Their are consequences to sin. A person who has slept around has a good chance of carrying STDs(believe it or not condoms do not protect against every STD) and STDs have been know to cause infertility in males and females.  So it becomes more of a health issue, and that is not a minor thing at all.   I have found that women are more accepting of sexual liasons than men. Just look at Kobe Bryant. He commits adultery and may go to jail, yet there is his wife right by his side.
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« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2003, 05:53:11 PM »


 Yes, there would be significant effects through which you both would have to work, but you would not be doomed.  

Thank you for saying that. I was trying to articulate that earlier but failed doing so.
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« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2003, 05:56:25 PM »

You obviously weren't paying attention to what the man said.  He asked how it could ever be possible for a virgin and non-virgin to find some sort of intiacy between each other -- not whether two non-virgins could.  The two situations are completely different from one another and, as such, everything you said is rendered moot.

Actually, I was paying attention.  The situations are not completely different.  The point remains the same:  just because someone is not a virgin when they marry doesn't mean they can't have an intimate relationship with their spouse.  If he is a virign and his wife is not when they marry, through the grace of God, they may still have an intimate relationship.  

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« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2003, 06:00:24 PM »

Don't forget that, especially in this day and age (with the net, xxx channels, porn shops, etc.), virginity is only part of the story. I technically entered marriage a virgin, but I was hardly sexually pure. Our world today offers us many different ways of being sexually impure while still being "a virgin" physically. The Fathers almost always identified virginity with purity of both body and soul. It would be wise for us not to get too hung up on the physical virginity thing.... especially in light of the fact that almost all of us have failed in some way in this area (even if not by having sexual relations).

The man who lusts in his heart has already committed adultery. Someone who looks at porn often, just as one example -- and I speak not as a judge but as someone with experience -- has not only committed spiritual adultery many times over but has died many spiritual deaths. Committing a sin should help us sympathise and love someone who commits a similar sin, because we can understand the pain and hurt that is caused, and spiritual and personal failure. Perhaps many of us have died so many times spiritually, though, that we have little life left with which to enliven and love others. I know this is true of me.
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« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2003, 06:03:33 PM »

Quote

I will be honest here, and it may shock some people.  I would criticize him for dating a virgin.  I would mock him for marrying a virgin, because that virgin could have married another virgin.  Life is not fair, that is what I have learned.   Just because God forgives you does not mean all things are well. What about someone who kills someone else? He goes to church repents and confesses his sin, truly repented and vowed to never fall again. God has forgiven him, so why doesn't society forgive him and let him out of jail? Their are consequences to sin. A person who has slept around has a good chance of carrying STDs(believe it or not condoms do not protect against every STD) and STDs have been know to cause infertility in males and females.  So it becomes more of a health issue, and that is not a minor thing at all.   I have found that women are more accepting of sexual liasons than men. Just look at Kobe Bryant. He commits adultery and may go to jail, yet there is his wife right by his side.  


I am sorry you feel this way. That is very sad. Yes, God forgives people if they are truly repentent and they may still remain in jail, thanks to our society. Is this the justification you are using to say that you don't have to forgive someone? Because society still leaves them in jail in spite of their repentance? This is the same society that earlier in this thread has been blamed for lack of morals and instilling promiscuity in people's lives.

And as for the STDs. Yes, that is undeniably a problem. However, are the STDs what you are concerned with? Or are you concerned more with the spiritual aspect of it. I'm a bit confused  Huh
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« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2003, 06:16:04 PM »

As Plutonas said, I was asking about how a virgin and a non-virgin can build sexual intimacy in a marriage.  Anyway, you don't seem to be endorsing virginity, by that you are not totally bummed about not being a virgin on your wedding day.

On the contrary, as I said in my post, I wished I had remained a virgin.  I didn't use the words "totally bummed" so perhaps I didn't convey just how sorry I was, but rest assured I was seriously disappointed.   Everyone should be a virgin when they marry.  It is tragic if they are not.  However, my point was that it doesn't mean you can't have an intimate relationship.  And it does NOT matter whether the situation is one in which both people are not virgins or just one is not a virgin; a deep, intimate relationship may still flourish.  

Quote
If I was a widower, I don't think I would re-marry. Depending on the situation I would consider monasticism.

Say you had not been married and 10 years from now you meet and fall in love with a woman who had been married previously and was widowed (and she had only been with her late husband) would you not consider marrying her because she had had a previous sexual relationship?  

The point I'm trying to make is that just because a woman has been with another man does not mean that you can't have an intimate relationship with her as her spouse.

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I'm sorry but I am sure that the Orthodox Church and God himself doesn't see it that way. You are telling me there is a difference between a person who has slept with one or two other people and the whole football team? What is the point of me being a virgin then? Whatever happened to being pure and having only one person for the rest of your life? Whatever happened to building an intimacy over time? So it is not so bad to have sex with a few people and not ten? That is pathetic.

You're missing my point.  It's never good to fornicate or commit adultery.  Sex is meant for inside marriage only.  However, there is a difference since a girl who goes out to sleep with the whole football team obviously has issues sexually, as opposed to the girl who made a single mistake by giving in to a boyfriend.  

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I guess Plutonas and I are two aliens from another planet on this whole entire issue. I realize we live in a more sexually liberated time and it is sad.  So much for being chaste up to your marriage, might as well go out and get some experience with one or two others. This whole thread is just plain despairing. Sad

Don't despair.  I'm really glad to see a guy who is willing to wait until marriage.  Most guys I've met, including Christian guys, are not willing to wait.  

Your sister in Christ,

Jenny
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« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2003, 06:18:22 PM »

Just look at Kobe Bryant. He commits adultery and may go to jail, yet there is his wife right by his side.  

I'll take bets on how long. Be patient. By showing up at his side she gains more sympathy in the eyes of a future jury. You think she is stupid?

She knows this is not the first time. But then she can file for divorce and say "I stuck buy him then, but I had no IDEA that there were others. So, I'll settle for 50% of his earnings since we got married. Thank you"  

Grin

P.S. Not that you can blame her!
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« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2003, 06:19:14 PM »

Kukla, I am concerned with all aspects.
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« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2003, 12:58:38 PM »

Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten ...

-- The Prophet Joel
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« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2003, 03:05:27 PM »

Just a few thoughts...

i) If someone is set on marrying a virgin, that is their right.  They certainly are not space aliens for expecting such - in most cultures, including decidedly Christian ones, a very high premium was placed on this.  Up until relatively recently, even in the west, a huge social stigma was placed upon engaging in pre-marital sex; it was a disgrace, with real social consequences, particularly in regard to one's future prospects.  This was particularly true in regard to women.  This is unfair (the gender bias), but it is hardly something "strange", and at one time there were understandable reasons for this bias (relating to the legitimacy of children, or ensuring any children born shortly after the marriage were in fact those of the husband.)

ii) statistically, marriages where both partners are virgins do work out better.  Divorce rates fall through the floor, even in our troubled western cultures, when one looks at marriages between two virgins.  Psychologically, we do give a part of ourselves away when we engage in sexual relations.  Obviously, if one has been with people other than their current spouse, some of the exlusiveness of that relationship has been comprimised.  This is why in Orthodoxy, one marriage is the ideal, even for widows/widowers.

iii) With the above said, (as Justin wisely pointed out) there is more to this than simple physicality... particularly for Christians, whose interests should rise above tribal/economic interests from days past (which still exist in many societies, such as the middle east and less developed areas), situations which actually result in a vision of marriage which is not by default what a "Christian marriage" is all about.  The Christian marriage is actually a very different animal from what normally passes for marriage in other civilizations; it is a return to the Adamic ideal, as Christ Himself indicated when speaking to the Jews.  In fact, without this Christian ideal, the utility of marriage as an institution becomes open for debate, since we are no longer nomads or tribesmen who have vested social/economic interests in our offspring, their strict descent from our loins, etc.  In fact, it is such a contractual/worldly view of marriage which allowed for the degeneration of marriage into polygamy throughout the world (since there is no good economic reason why a man couldn't have more than one wife to produce legitimate children.)  In our culture, this more "tribalistic" view of marriage rings hollow, and in part (along with the decline of the Christian ideal of marriage, corresponding to the decline of Christianity in general) is why promiscuity and the devaluing of marriage as an institution (or confusion about what it's for) has become so common.

iv) What should be of paramount concern when finding a spouse, I would think, is the state of their heart.  Virginity is not simply a matter of being physically in tact - virginity signifies (particularly in our sex drenched culture) a great commitment, and no small amount of personal discipline.  The mind which see's virginity as being important, is probably more congenial to the Christian ethos in general.

v) However, I think it's also possible to find someone who is repentent of their sins (in particular, sexual sins) and who has, in a manner of speaking, renewed their purity.  Perhaps such a person may be a very zealous Christian even.  It would be a shame to turn such a person away, I think, because of their past.  That however, is up to the person looking for a spouse, and we should respect that decision...I would say finding a genuine Christian, is just as difficult (if not more so) than finding someone who is a virgin...though I'd argue that the two often go hand in hand in our culture (since nothing but some kind of religious conviction would make such an unfashionable virtue practicable in our social climate.)

vi) A little word about "virgins" however.  This may sound terribly judgemental, but I question how "virginal" some physically in tact women are, at least in our culture.  Growing up, I knew of girls who prided themselves on being "virgins", yet I knew full well they had done lewd, sexual things...just not vaginal intercourse.  Is that really a "virgin" in the sense that matters to Christianity?  I'd say no, since "purity" (the real virtue behind being virginal) is something far broader than a woman having an intact hymen.  On that score, most men and women who are virgins (even the best of them, whose virginity is not simply pharisaical...no intercourse, but practically everything else under the sun) have fallen at some point.  Purity is fundamentally something rooted in the heart, which is precisely why it has some independence from physical acts (thus, why a physically chaste person can in fact be impure, or why someone who has been physically unchaste can regain this purity.)

Seraphim
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« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2003, 04:36:51 PM »

Just to add another aspect:  There are women who have been molested as children or raped.  In other words, through no volition of their own, they are not physically "virgins".  I hardly thing that this "sullies" them or takes their purity.  If such a woman were to be told that she was thus dirty or a w**** or unworthy of marriage this would cause even more wounds then the physical assault alone.

Life is not always or even often "binary".

Ebor
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« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2003, 08:02:03 AM »

I think it would do us all some good to read Hosea sometime.

Nobody on this thread has condoned sleeping around before marriage (or after marriage too I imagine) so I'm a little suprised at how two of our eligible bachelors have responded. Personally, I believe that when God reveals those women He has intended for you both this will not be an issue, and if it is you will wish to have it dealt with and never brought up again.

Marriage is a sacrament, and just like Baptism, Confession, the Eucharist etc. it is salvific in nature. I haven't had the time to look deeply into how this is so as I only recently came to this understanding, but others I have spoken to have confirmed the truth of this.

God is only interested in our salvation, everything He has done and continues to do for us is to this end. If marrying a virgin will help you in your journey to attaining salvation then I'm sure that God will bless you with such a marriage.
We must not forget, however, that God sees the big picture and will often permit suffering and despair in our lives which we do not understand at the time, but which force us to struggle and gain in strength so that we can strive all the more towards attaining eternal life. This may involve matching you with a woman who has sinned sexually in the past. It may be necessary for God to yoke her to a man who has kept himself sexually pure for the sake of her own salvation, as it may also be necessary for the man to be yoked to a woman who has sinned in this way for the sake of his own salvation.

Our only requirement in a spouse should be someone who can support us in our struggle towards the goal of eternal life and who we in turn can support in their struggle, for we become one flesh, their struggle becomes ours and ours theirs as we strive together as one.

I'll leave it there as I'm having difficulty expressing exactly what I want to say. I commend you for choosing to remain celebate for the sake of your future spouses as it is good and proper, however I don't believe you can demand the same of your spouses. All of us are adulterous before God as all of us have placed other things before God in our lives, yet God is merciful and forgiving and not only receives us back when we repent, but washes us whiter than snow. If God has forgiven us so large a debt, how can we not forgive those who have so much smaller a debt towards us?

John.
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« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2003, 09:30:42 AM »

I think it would do us all some good to read Hosea sometime.

Far and away the most sensible thing said in this thread. Thank you for bringing up Hosea-- it hadn't occurred to me, but its relevance is obvious and telling.
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« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2003, 10:19:58 PM »

Okay, I 've read Hosea but I don't see the connection. God told Hosea to go and do it, something entirely different. I don't think that God will tell me tomorrow to go out and marry a whore.
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« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2003, 05:03:30 AM »

He will match you up with a sinner though.

Truly, I hope that God will bless your virginity by providing you with a wife who has also maintained her own, I truly do.

However, what if she happens to be someone who has never [insert your sin of choice] and does not wish to marry someone who has. You may be a virgin, but you have sinned in many other ways. Does God see your sin differently from sexual sin? Why do you?

You and I are both miserable sinners. My wife is a miserable sinner and your wife, when you find her, will also be a miserable sinner. Your role as her husband is to help her to attain salvation through your humility, love, support, prayer and at times rebuke. Her role will be to do the same for you, and together you will do the same for your children.

We are sinners, but we are also a people who have been set free from slavery to sin by the death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If a person has commited adultry, but later repented and confessed their sin, or similiarly later became an orthodox christian and had that sin washed away through their regeneration at baptism, God no longer sees that person as an adulterer. As far as God is concerned that person is now as white as snow. Should we see them any differently?

unworthy John.
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« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2003, 10:11:05 AM »

Sinjin,
I'm curious to see what you'll be like in 10 years.  Hopefully in that time, you will grow to understand that all people are sinners.  Are you saying it's better to marry a thief (or God forbid a murderer), than to marry a non-virgin?  Would you judge a repentant thief harshly, when Christ, during his crucifixion did not?  If we ever met, would you hold the fact that, long ago, in my troubled youth, I used to take advantage of the 5 figure discount quite a lot, against me,? though it was almost 10 years ago?  Would you disregard this fact as childish stupidity, or would you hide your Rolex & family silver if I came to dinner?  At the same time I was getting good at shoplifting, most of the other kids in my class were busy loosing their virginity.  Since then, many of my friends have regretted loosing it, as I regret stealing.  We were 13 at the time.  I was stealing as a backlash against authority, knowing full well what I was doing was wrong.  They had sex because for the most part no-one taught them any better.  If anyone here has sat in a high school health class in the recent past, what they will hear might shock them.  They teach how to put a condom on, they advise you to go to the nurse or Planned Parenthood for birth control, etc, etc.  Only at the end do they say, well, the best way to avoid an STD is by abstinence.  
So if you met someone, who, in the folly of youth, had sex, because of peer pressure, or not knowing any better, but has since repented, become Orthodox, and lived a good spiritual life since, would you still call them a whore?  If so, then by all rights you should call me a thief.
Out of curiosity Sinjin, if there were 3 people left on Earth, (oh yeah, & a priest, so I guess that would be 4); you (an all-pure example of Orthodox masculinity), me (a Orthodox virgin who in my youth had sticky fingers), and a repentant non-virgin who is a heck of a lot more pious than I am, who would you chose to marry & continue on the human race with?  Actually, never mind, I think me & the non-virgin would just choose to die spinsters, because to live with someone as judgmental as you for the rest of our lives would be a fate worse than a lonely death.
Apparently Sinjin, you're the only one among us who can live in a glass house.  
Anyway, tangent done, time for me to get some work done.
Ania
P.S. You still haven't answered if you would marry someone who was raped or molested, and so has not sinned but is also still physically not a virgin.
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« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2003, 04:22:08 PM »

Ania,
 To answer your question I would marry someone who is raped/molested/assaulted because they did not make the choice. They were forced into committing acts they did not want to do. I would not marry anyone who has a criminal past. I am looking for someone who is like me. As for your other question, I would choose to die alone. If God have given a choice between being born or not, I would choose not to be born. I can't forgive myself, so how do you expect me to forgive others?
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« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2003, 04:30:52 PM »

He will match you up with a sinner though.

Of course, he will. Roll Eyes

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However, what if she happens to be someone who has never [insert your sin of choice] and does not wish to marry someone who has.

That is her choice to do so.

Quote
You may be a virgin, but you have sinned in many other ways. Does God see your sin differently from sexual sin? Why do you?

The old we are all sinners clause. Okay, so are you saying that all sins are the same. That lying is as bad as killing someone?
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You and I are both miserable sinners.

Boy...isn't that the truth.

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We are sinners, but we are also a people who have been set free from slavery to sin by the death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If a person has commited adultry, but later repented and confessed their sin, or similiarly later became an orthodox christian and had that sin washed away through their regeneration at baptism, God no longer sees that person as an adulterer. As far as God is concerned that person is now as white as snow. Should we see them any differently?

I am sorry but society doesn't. I mean we don't let rapists/child molesters of the hook because they have sincerely repented. Everything talks this great game about forgiveness, yet how much of society truly forgives repented offenses?
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« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2003, 05:03:12 PM »

I never thought the day would come where I'd have to delete the "word" of "God", but here goes.

Watch it, God.
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« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2003, 05:03:34 PM »

Wow Sinjin, you've set yourself up for a very lonely life.  If people didn't know how to forgive themselves... just the very thought is depressing & scary.  If you can love, then you can forgive.  You remember, "Love thy neighbor as you love thyself."  Apparently God wants you to love yourself at least to some degree, even if it's simply because you yourself are part of God's creation, which means you are supposed to forgive yourself.
So many of the world's problems these day's stem from peoples inability to forgive.  Look at the Middle East, for gosh sakes.  But that's a whole 'nother topic for a whole 'nother day.  So to quote a Southern Baptist I saw on TV a while back... "Let Love into your Life, Halellujah!"
But to end this miandering thought, God forgives because He loves.
You & I should get together, it'd be more interesting to chat face to face.  Perhaps then I can persuade you that not all is black & white, good & bad, saved or destined for H-E-Double Hockey Sticks.
Ania
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« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2003, 05:12:03 PM »

Whoever posted right before me, your disgusting & rude.
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« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2003, 12:17:51 AM »

I know I said I'd stop replying to this thread, and maybe I should, but I'm feeling particularly pissed off right now so whatever...

I don't think that God will tell me tomorrow to go out and marry a whore.

You know what?  I seriously believe something like that is gonna happen to me one day.  When I look at what's happened to me so far I can't help but think that God has something like that in store for me in the "grand scheme of things", like God is planning exactly that future for me.  And only because He knows I don't want to marry a whore.  No other reason.  Just to make me even more miserable.  

Like He'll either make me fall in love with some slut who's graphic reference or He'll set me up with a "virgin" who AFTER I marry will only then confess to me that she's graphic reference.  Now that would just be the "icing" to the "cake" which is my life.

I just KNOW this is going to happen.  And on realizing it, I can't but help laugh maniacally.......... let's all point at me and laugh together.  Cuz God's laughing too.
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« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2003, 11:34:15 AM »

Dude, get a grip.
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« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2003, 11:50:24 AM »

I second the motion, Frobisher!  Get a shrink while your at it, as well.
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« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2003, 02:33:01 PM »

Instead of attacking members with whom we do not agree, let's try to just pray for each other.  I realize we are all feeling a little angry and shocked at some of the things being said but reality is that not everyone is well formed and catechized in this generation so a lot of alternative ideas are floating around.  Let's focus on reading the scriptures, writings of the fathers, going to liturgy, and putting what we've learned to good use via fasting, prayer, and almsgiving.

anastasios
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« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2003, 04:39:16 PM »

I thought this forum wasn't moderated.  Considering that I said nothing more graphic than I did previously in this thread this is a real let down on the part of the easily-intimidated and oversensitive administration.  What can I expect from ultra-religious zealots, though?

This forum is a JOKE.
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« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2003, 05:13:52 PM »

Ultra-religious zealots?  They let me and Keble and Boswell stay... we're not EO even.

Ideas can be gotten across without resorting to crudity, maybe?

Plutonas, Why are you so angry?  What has hurt you?

Ebor

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« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2003, 10:42:09 PM »

we're not EO even.

Perhaps that's a blessing.  

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Ideas can be gotten across without resorting to crudity, maybe?

Of course.  But...

My post which was censored on a supposedly "unmoderated" forum, though containing content of a crude nature, was put in the most eloquent terms possible so as to not be graphic.  Furthermore, I expressed my total indignation towards the sexually deviant acts that were described.

I also felt, and still do, that the censored areas of my post where absolutely essential to stress the point I was making.  They were no more and no less graphic than any other thing I said within this thread anyway.  But now that they have been edited my post is unintelligable.

I have a hard time understanding how anyone of a right mind could have been offended by what I wrote?  There is no logical explanation.  But then again zealotry is known to produce irrationality.

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Plutonas, Why are you so angry?  What has hurt you?

I am angry primarily because of the pervading mentality of idealistic buffoonery that I have witnessed here firsthand, secondly because I am consistently attacked and insulted for personal opinions that in no way conflict with the teachings of Orthodoxy, and finally because the administration can not keep to its own rules.  But I am in no way "hurt."
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« Reply #75 on: August 20, 2003, 09:38:58 AM »

If you weren't hurt or angry, you wouldn't be sending me disgustingly graphic pms.  Were you being crude & inappropriate to prove a point, or do you really want me to burn in hell?  
Heaven help ya.
Ania
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« Reply #76 on: August 20, 2003, 09:49:31 AM »

I have read the offending PM, and frankly I am disguisted.  I have done my best to keep away from board politics, but I cannot let this go without action.  I have removed PM rights from Plutonas's account, and he is now placed on post moderation. This means that any post made by him will need to be approved by a mod/admin for it to appear.

If anyone has any protests to my action, please let me know.

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« Reply #77 on: August 20, 2003, 09:50:34 AM »

Good move, Bobby! I support you!
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« Reply #78 on: August 20, 2003, 09:51:44 AM »

Nice, good to see a swift resolution.
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« Reply #79 on: August 20, 2003, 09:52:30 AM »

plutonas

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Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." - James 1:13-15


Say not: "It was God's doing that I fell away"; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: "It was he who set me astray"; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Immense is the wisdom of the LORD; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing. The eyes of God see all he has made; he understands man's every deed. No man does he command to sin, to none does he give strength for lies. - Sir. 15:11-20
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« Reply #80 on: August 20, 2003, 01:18:47 PM »

Just as a clarification:

Yes this is an unmoderated forum but if you read the fine print it clearly says that posts violating forum rules will be junked.

We are considering making the mission statement of the free for all forum more clear to avoid such accusations in the future at any rate.

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« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2005, 02:07:35 AM »

I just read the first page of this thread (after looking at what place the STAR WARS thread ranked on the all time most read thread, and I must say that I find this very interesting.

I do think that sexual promescuity is completely out of controll in the world today; in fact, it is because most of our souls (nous) is constantly bombarded by sexuality in a way that it has never been before in the history of mankind.

Premarital sex is something that hurts us and tears apart our nous.

I agreee with Anastasios, chastity is a state of mind. Just look at St. Mary of Egypt.

If a person cannot forgive a woman (especially one that he loves, and is seeking union with God), then he has a problem with pride and unforgiveness. I'm sure that all of us have commited the sin of lust whethere we slept around or not, and our nous was damaged by it.

In Orthodoxy, we are patients in a hospital, and we are recieving healing whatever our sin is. It is our job to work with God in our healing WHICH INCLUDES FORGIVENESS OF OTHERS even if they had fornicated in the past.

With all of that being said, I do pray to God that our world get healed of this massive sickness of fornication that has polluted it. I worry for my two daughters, and pray that they will be chaste. It is a hard thing in this day and age. I am also really disturbed when I see Orthodox who I know are fornicating going up and recieving communion all the time (I know that we aren't supposed to judge, but I'm talking about when it is flat out obvious and there is no sign of quiting in sight).

Mother Mary of Egypt Pray for us!!

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« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2005, 03:48:42 PM »

if the only other option I have is to accept a despoiled creature as my wife, thereby lowering and degrading myself.
'He gave Himself up for her that "He might cleanse and sanctify her..."  So the Church was not pure.  She had blemishes, she was ugly and cheap.  Whatever kind of wife you marry, you will never take a bride like Christ did when He married the Church; you will never marry anyone estranged from you as the Church was from Christ.  Despite all this, He did not abhor or hate her for her extraordinary corruption.  Do you want her corruption described?  Paul says, "For once you were in darkness."  Do you see how black she was?  Nothing is blacker than darkness.  Think of her shamelessness; she passed her day in malice and envy, Paul says.  Look at her impurity; she was foolish and disobedient.  But what am I saying?  She was foolish, her tongue was evil, but even though her wounds were so numerous, He sacrificed Himself for her in her corrupted state, as if she were in the bloom of youth, as if she were dearly beloved, and a wonderful beauty.'
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« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2005, 09:03:29 AM »

I had to respond to this thread, not because I could say anything better than what has already been said, but because I feel so much sorrow.

The judgementalism I saw astounded me... and then, on reflection, didn't.  While I have never expressed views as angrily or as crudely as I have seen in this thread, the attitude of my heart was marry-a-virgin-or-perish.  So, I think I understand, a little, the emotional attachment one makes to the idea of marrying a virgin... particularly when you are making sacrifices of your own on a daily basis and losing out in the popularity contest of life.  The world does not respect virgins.

What changed me, and I hope changes you - the posters who share my former views - is a realization of one's own sin.  How dare I examine the mote in another's eye, when I am blinded by my own sins?  How dare I sit in judgement - do I wish judgement to fall on me from on high?  How dare I presume myself to be without lust?  And, yes, Hosea.  Hosea messed with my head, for it brought back to me that Christ loves the Church as God loved Israel.  And God is united to Himself a Bride that was lost in harlotries, and who turns back to them at every opportunity.

Remember, please, that God calls on men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church.  That means dying for her.  That means dying horribly for her.  That means suffering with her.  And that means forgiving her when she whores herself with other men.  For the Church has, like Israel before her, turned again and again to false gods and heresies - the divine equivalent of harlotry.  With that kind of command before us, which few mortal men could ever live up to (and which not even the Church expects of us), I kind of feel that one or two past pre-marital indiscretions are fairly minor.  Don't you?

And lastly, I had given up on finding a virgin.  I knew of none.  And now I have met a lovely young lady who is immeasurably good for me, of whom I am unworthy.  And you know what?  She's a virgin.  With God all things are possible.  Don't let go of that.  Don't let despair swallow you as it had swallowed me.

In Christ, Vasya.
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« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2005, 11:32:51 AM »

Well, I am a virgin, but I do not have any expectation as to whether I will marry a virgin or non-virgin.  As Prodromos indicated, I don't know what will be required for my salvation where a spouse is concerned.  I also do not feel it is Christian to condemn someone for past mistakes.  That is not Christ-like at all.

There are many impure virgins, just as there are many pure non-virgins.  It's about the condition of the heart and soul, not an anatomical barrier.  To me, love and devotion to the Church, as well as personal character, is much more important than what sin they may have committed in years past.  I would be horrified if someone rejected me for a past sin, so I won't do it to someone else.
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« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2009, 01:02:35 PM »

Seriously? Is there like absolutely no pressure whatsover on women FROM the male dominated society? Are men not famous for lying and saying they deeply love a women, when in fact they are just trying to get sex? Some of you are being entirely too hard on one component in this scenario, when there are two components to call out.

And more importantly, the whole issue of fixation on sexuality here does make one wonder how truly pure the man is. Scripture is clear on what constitutes sexual sin, and its not just the physical act of sex before marriage. There is softcore porn on regular television, in ads at the grocery checkout, on the internet, billboards, and in stores/malls. I would have a really difficult time believing a couple of you are nearly as "pure as the driven snow" as you think you are. In God's eyes a man that has lusted after a woman with his eyes and his heart and mind is just as defiled. The standard is the same, and the bar is just as high for men-who probably have it somewhat harder in that they are made to be visually stimulated- in a society that provides a smorgasbord of stimulation.  I spent years in private Christian school and I can't tell you the amount of sexual pressure that comes from supposedly 'christian' men-including our Bible professors!!

I don't suggest that sexual purity is NOT important, I am suggesting that there is far more to it than some of your limited expectations of getting to be the only 'deflowerer' of a woman. If you have visually, or mentally 'deflowered' anyone EVER (even imaginary women), you are just as guilty. What a man thinks on, that is his heart.

I can lament the lack of Orthodox singles a bit, I have kids heading straight into that mess. We have little options as Orthodox in the South for our children, so spread out are we. But anyone as judgmental as a few of you guys would not be competent mates for my beautiful intelligent daughters anyway. Sin is sin in God's eyes, and the measure with which you would judge my daughter (even as virgins) would give me pause. A haughty man, a judgmental arrogant man? Marriage is freakishly hard enough, I honestly would have a hard time condoning it if this is the kind of Orthodox men left!
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« Reply #86 on: July 02, 2009, 01:17:50 PM »

^ You may want to word parts of your argument (like "some of you are being entirely too hard") in the past tense, since all but 4 posts (now 6) are from 2003 and, thus, firmly in the past.  There are a number of people involved in this discussion who no longer post here, btw.

Otherwise, carry on.  I don't want to stifle your response to the thread just because it's old - we're a discussion forum, for Pete's sake.
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« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2009, 01:47:45 PM »

How can someone who has not had premarital sex get married and build intimacy with a spouse who has slept around?  

When my husband I married 5 years ago, neither one of us were virgins.  I know that at the time I married I wished that I had remained a virgin.  However, the fact that we were not virgins has not kept us from building a wonderful, intimate relationship.  Neither one of us ever think about the other people we were with.  Now, it truly seems like I was never with anyone else.  

Let me ask you:  say you married and were then widowed (maybe at a relatively young age).  You found someone else who was also widowed.  Could you not marry and build an intimate relationship with that new spouse simply because they had slept with someone else?  

I realize there is a difference between a girl who has been with one or two other guys and a girl who's been with the whole football team.  Most of my friends, though not virigns, had not been with a lot of guys; I don't think it would be too hard to find a girl like that.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with trying to find someone who is a virgin; in fact, I think it's a good thing that you want to find someone who hasn't slept around.  But I just wanted to say that I don't think it's impossible to build an intimate relationship with someone who is not a virgin.

ummmm.. It's a bit sexist to judge women on the details of their past sexual experiences as if they are "spoiled goods". .  How's about finding someone who is generous , a pious Christian and potential good mother or already a good mother? This kind of judgementalism makes my teeth itch. Your milage may vary
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« Reply #88 on: July 02, 2009, 01:50:26 PM »

Ironically, I've heard more of the opposite lately-men only want women with "experience".
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« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2009, 03:03:02 PM »

Ironically, I've heard more of the opposite lately-men only want women with "experience".

LOL.

There's a running gag that I've come up with (though, I think a lot of people just come up with this on their own).

Why exactly would Muslims want a mess of virgins?  Why wouldn't they want a mess of female ne'er-do-wells who actually know what they're doing?

 Cheesy

I'm kind of the same way (in moderation), but I suppose the reverse could be fun.  Learning together and all that.

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« Reply #90 on: July 02, 2009, 03:20:14 PM »

Ironically, I've heard more of the opposite lately-men only want women with "experience".

LOL.

There's a running gag that I've come up with (though, I think a lot of people just come up with this on their own).

Why exactly would Muslims want a mess of virgins?  Why wouldn't they want a mess of female ne'er-do-wells who actually know what they're doing?

 Cheesy

I'm kind of the same way (in moderation), but I suppose the reverse could be fun.  Learning together and all that.



I am the only man in a office with 10 women.. I have confirmed that polygamy is not a good option.
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« Reply #91 on: July 02, 2009, 05:24:46 PM »

Ironically, I've heard more of the opposite lately-men only want women with "experience".

LOL.

There's a running gag that I've come up with (though, I think a lot of people just come up with this on their own).

Why exactly would Muslims want a mess of virgins?  Why wouldn't they want a mess of female ne'er-do-wells who actually know what they're doing?

 Cheesy

I'm kind of the same way (in moderation), but I suppose the reverse could be fun.  Learning together and all that.



I am the only man in a office with 10 women.. I have confirmed that polygamy is not a good option.

Smart man.   laugh
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« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2009, 12:24:05 AM »

Ironically, I've heard more of the opposite lately-men only want women with "experience".
Is it because they want an even match?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2009, 06:38:12 PM »

This thread would be really sad for a couple of my friends to read...and I'm glad they aren't.  Plutonas' (sp) attitude would deem rape victims as unmarriagable.
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« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2009, 08:59:45 PM »

Ironically, I've heard more of the opposite lately-men only want women with "experience".
Is it because they want an even match?  Roll Eyes

I'm not sure. I think it's because they're selfish. I've decided it's impossible to please men. They always hold something against you. Men, on the other hand, have it much easier-they don't have nearly the difficulties women face in finding a mate.
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« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2009, 10:35:57 AM »

I'm not sure. I think it's because they're selfish. I've decided it's impossible to please men. They always hold something against you. Men, on the other hand, have it much easier-they don't have nearly the difficulties women face in finding a mate.

Really...

Enlighten us.
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« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2009, 11:06:53 AM »

Yes. If you diligently keep yourself pure out of love and devotion to your future husband, then you discover men disdain you for this. If you have fallen into sin and been in previous relationships, then the men despise you because you're not a virgin. On the other hand, men seem to be able to get away with immoral behaviour, and somehow, that's okay. Plus, they get to ask women out. Women do not have that option and must wait until someone asks them. I've known all sorts of very unattractive men who manage to find mates but women who far surpass them in the looks department are never chosen.
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« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2009, 11:16:12 AM »

Yes. If you diligently keep yourself pure out of love and devotion to your future husband, then you discover men disdain you for this. If you have fallen into sin and been in previous relationships, then the men despise you because you're not a virgin. On the other hand, men seem to be able to get away with immoral behaviour, and somehow, that's okay. Plus, they get to ask women out. Women do not have that option and must wait until someone asks them. I've known all sorts of very unattractive men who manage to find mates but women who far surpass them in the looks department are never chosen.

I find the bolded statement quite telling, honestly.  Those "unattractive men" are usually people for whom beauty is in the eye of the beholder and who are actually looking for a person rather than at a person.

I say this as one of those "unattractive men" who most conventionally attractive women don't even notice exist let alone would consider dating.  I say this as a friend of scores of "unattractive men" who enjoy the "dorky" pursuits of life who were always told they'd be alone for the rest of their lives and managed through thick and thin to look find a mate.  I say this as the husband of a beautiful woman who had a horrible track record in dating men for so long that her mother had in it for me from the get-go because she was simply accustomed to her daughter dating horrible men. 

Perhaps you need to move or look elsewhere.  There's bound to be a gaming convention near you where you're going to find someone who will adore the very ground you walk on and who wouldn't mind in the slightest if you asked them out because they lack the confidence to do it themselves.
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« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2009, 11:26:21 AM »

I didn't intend to slam "unattractive men". What I meant to say was that even "unattractive" men think it their right to a "beautiful" woman. However, "unattractive" women aren't able to enjoy the same privileges, and are usually ignored by men. Women are constantly judged by so many things, whereas men can do as they please and think it their right-no matter what they look like to "rate" women, to marry a "beautiful" woman, to disdain a woman for either being a virgin or promiscuous or too ugly. Believe me, I've been around a lot of men, and I know how they act.
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« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2009, 12:37:53 PM »

It seems to me that we need to be very careful about making sweeping generalizations. Just a suggestion. It's unwise to label men and women as being this or that. If one is going to judge at all, it seems more prudent to judge the individual rather than paint broad stripes over the group. Just my two cents.    Roll Eyes
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« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2009, 05:41:19 PM »

Ironically, I've heard more of the opposite lately-men only want women with "experience".

LOL.

There's a running gag that I've come up with (though, I think a lot of people just come up with this on their own).

Why exactly would Muslims want a mess of virgins?  Why wouldn't they want a mess of female ne'er-do-wells who actually know what they're doing?

 Cheesy

I'm kind of the same way (in moderation), but I suppose the reverse could be fun.  Learning together and all that.



I am the only man in a office with 10 women.. I have confirmed that polygamy is not a good option.

I have heard that monogamy and polygamy are really the same.  They are both at least one spouse too many.
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« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2009, 01:59:23 AM »

Never thought I'd see such a spicy topic on an Orthodox forum laugh

Some saints with a "dark past":

-St. Mary of Egypt
-St. Moses the Black
-St. Augustine (I think)
-That girl who tempted St. George the Roman while in his cell

The thing is, all these people turned away from their lives and never went back. But what does the church have to say for those who do return, like let's say 'addicted' to sin?

"I've decided it's impossible to please men."

laugh Right back at you, missy! Just listen to this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrmjSOer04M <--Those who think they stand, *take heed* lest you fall, you have been warned (the video isn't completely appropriate, but does have a catchy tune).

Disclaimer: The above link directs the viewer to a video which contains material that some may find offensive. Viewer discretion is advised.--YtterbiumAnalyst
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« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2009, 11:08:44 AM »



laugh Right back at you, missy! Just listen to this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrmjSOer04M <--Those who think they stand, *take heed* lest you fall, you have been warned (the video isn't completely appropriate, but does have a catchy tune).

This video is completely inappropriate for a Christian forum, your warning notwithstanding. We are Christians... Orthodox Christians. I would hope that we can show better discretion in what we allow in through the eye. This sort of filth has a way of polluting the heart and can easily become an addiction. I had a small part in this thread so I was curious as to what you believed pertained to the discussion. After twenty or so seconds of that disgusting video, I quickly turned it off. Lord, have mercy.

And... "right back at you, missy"Huh Missy is both a derogatory term as well as showing a sexist bent. We're not adversarial here nor do we demean the other gender. I'm actually quite shocked that your first post to this thread would be so dismissive of a long-time poster here.
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« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2009, 11:31:18 AM »



laugh Right back at you, missy! Just listen to this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrmjSOer04M <--Those who think they stand, *take heed* lest you fall, you have been warned (the video isn't completely appropriate, but does have a catchy tune).

This video is completely inappropriate for a Christian forum, your warning notwithstanding. We are Christians... Orthodox Christians. I would hope that we can show better discretion in what we allow in through the eye. This sort of filth has a way of polluting the heart and can easily become an addiction. I had a small part in this thread so I was curious as to what you believed pertained to the discussion. After twenty or so seconds of that disgusting video, I quickly turned it off. Lord, have mercy.

And... "right back at you, missy"Huh Missy is both a derogatory term as well as showing a sexist bent. We're not adversarial here nor do we demean the other gender. I'm actually quite shocked that your first post to this thread would be so dismissive of a long-time poster here.

Although hard to understand, the lyrics aren't commending that lifestyle.  Quite the opposite.  At the end there is a statistic about HIV infection among girls in Jamaica, and a quote "burn the sex seller and the buyer."
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« Reply #104 on: July 15, 2009, 11:35:39 AM »

Thanks, Douglas. Um, sodr2, I didn't manage to get through that video you posted. Sorry, it's just not my style. The genre is totally foreign to me and not my taste at all. Regarding my remark, on which you commented, that remark wasn't intended to mean what I believe you are somehow implying. I meant my remark to mean that in order to even be asked out on a date by a serious and honourable man who intends to marry and to keep himself pure before marriage, often his standards relating to a woman's appearance, family background, ethnicity, career etc etc. are so high that ordinary women don't stand a chance. I was NOT referring to something sexual, as I believe you were.
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« Reply #105 on: July 15, 2009, 11:52:05 AM »

This video is completely inappropriate for a Christian forum, your warning notwithstanding. We are Christians... Orthodox Christians. I would hope that we can show better discretion in what we allow in through the eye. This sort of filth has a way of polluting the heart and can easily become an addiction. I had a small part in this thread so I was curious as to what you believed pertained to the discussion. After twenty or so seconds of that disgusting video, I quickly turned it off. Lord, have mercy.

And... "right back at you, missy"Huh Missy is both a derogatory term as well as showing a sexist bent. We're not adversarial here nor do we demean the other gender. I'm actually quite shocked that your first post to this thread would be so dismissive of a long-time poster here.

Ever hear the saying: "It's not what goes into a person, but what comes out of him."? BTW I was not trying to be sexist.

And the comment I made in reply to Rosehip wasn't meant to be referring to anything sexual (if you want, it can be).
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« Reply #106 on: July 15, 2009, 12:29:49 PM »

Although hard to understand, the lyrics aren't commending that lifestyle.  Quite the opposite.  At the end there is a statistic about HIV infection among girls in Jamaica, and a quote "burn the sex seller and the buyer."
I understand. But I don't appreciate scantily clad women, men leering and prostitution presented here on this Christian forum in order to make a point (whatever that point might have been in relation to the ongoing discussion). Let's just say that our standards are a little different.
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« Reply #107 on: July 15, 2009, 12:33:20 PM »

Ever hear the saying: "It's not what goes into a person, but what comes out of him."? BTW I was not trying to be sexist.

And the comment I made in reply to Rosehip wasn't meant to be referring to anything sexual (if you want, it can be).

Whether you intentionally meant it to be sexist or not, using the word "missy" is a dismissive term... period. In fact, your comment that "you (sic) were not trying to be sexist" puts me in mind of Sotomayor's comment that her comments were not racially motivated. What is on the heart, frequently comes out of the mouth (in this case, via the keyboard).
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« Reply #108 on: July 15, 2009, 12:41:22 PM »

I actually found it nothing short of hilarious to be called "Missy" by a 17 year old male. Shocked Cheesy
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« Reply #109 on: July 15, 2009, 12:48:46 PM »

I actually found it nothing short of hilarious to be called "Missy" by a 17 year old male. Shocked Cheesy

Well... now that you mention it, it is rather funny. I need to check profiles more often.
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« Reply #110 on: July 15, 2009, 04:54:55 PM »

Two things, folks:

Please keep the discussion clean, and refrain from any ad hominems involving sex or gender, and any innuendo.  No more comments of this nature will be tolerated.  Nor will any more political references (eg: something involving Sotomayor).  I hope that this is clear.  Thank you.

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« Reply #111 on: July 21, 2009, 08:15:13 PM »

Humans lie about sex.

Psalm 12:1-2 For the director of music. According to sheminith. A psalm of David. Help, LORD, for the godly are no more; the faithful have vanished from among men. Everyone lies to his neighbor; their flattering lips speak with deception.
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