Topic: Modernism in the RCC, liturgical abuses and can it happen here?

[Heracleides]

Papal infallibility has nothing to do with pastoral decisions made by the Holy Father.

Quite obviously.  
.

[SolEX01]

Papal infallibility has nothing to do with pastoral decisions made by the Holy Father.

Infallibility was a poor choice of words because I'm under the impression that the Holy Father can stop rock bands from performing during any Mass by issuing an encyclical binding to the entire RC world.     

[Andrea]

Infallibility was a poor choice of words because I'm under the impression that the Holy Father can stop rock bands from performing during any Mass by issuing an encyclical binding to the entire RC world.     

See, I would think the Pope could do something like that for a lot of things...like communion into the hand, laity distributing the Eucharist, etc...

So what would happen if a rock band did perform at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy? Is there liturgical abuse in Orthodox Churches, and if so, how is it handled?

[SolEX01]

See, I would think the Pope could do something like that for a lot of things...like communion into the hand, laity distributing the Eucharist, etc...

Surely, He could and none of us know why He doesn't. 

So what would happen if a rock band did perform at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy? Is there liturgical abuse in Orthodox Churches, and if so, how is it handled?

Personally, I'd dial my Hierarch right away along with others.  The Hierarch would investigate and take any action necessary to ensure that such a thing wouldn't happen again.

[Entscheidungsproblem]

like communion into the hand, laity distributing the Eucharist

It is actully being discussed after Archbishop Albert Malcolm Ranjith spoke out about it.

[Andrea]

Personally, I'd dial my Hierarch right away along with others.  The Hierarch would investigate and take any action necessary to ensure that such a thing wouldn't happen again.

So abuse of the liturgy, or "innovation" is taken very seriously and not tolerated by the Hierarchs?

[Entscheidungsproblem]

Personally, I'd dial my Hierarch right away along with others.  The Hierarch would investigate and take any action necessary to ensure that such a thing wouldn't happen again.

And if your Hierarch does nothing about it?  And don't say it doesn't happen, because it does.

[Andrea]

It is actully being discussed after Archbishop Albert Malcolm Ranjith spoke out about it.

I hope so, but I read an article yesterday that didn't make me very hopeful.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802805.htm

From the article: "In addition, he said, "there are no new norms coming" that would change the Vatican's 1969 decision that local bishops could allow their faithful to receive the Eucharist in their hands while standing."

[Entscheidungsproblem]

I hope so, but I read an article yesterday that didn't make me very hopeful.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802805.htm

From the article: "In addition, he said, "there are no new norms coming" that would change the Vatican's 1969 decision that local bishops could allow their faithful to receive the Eucharist in their hands while standing."

Who knows.    Getting definite information out of the Vatican just never seems to happen.  Look how long it took for the Summorum Pontificum to come out after various Bishops and members had said it was "soon".   

[Andrea]

Who knows.    Getting definite information out of the Vatican just never seems to happen.  Look how long it took for the Summorum Pontificum to come out after various Bishops and members had said it was "soon".   

  So true!

[SolEX01]

So abuse of the liturgy, or "innovation" is taken very seriously and not tolerated by the Hierarchs?

Yes.  I've never seen an innovation at any Liturgy for any jurisdiction.  I didn't say that innovations didn't exist.  An Orthodox church with an organ wouldn't be an innovation, based on my understanding of Liturgy.  A Christmas concert on the solea wouldn't be an innovation either because no sacramental worship has occurred.

EDIT - Explained myself further.   

[SolEX01]

And if your Hierarch does nothing about it?  And don't say it doesn't happen, because it does.

If my Hierarch ignored me, I would find my way to another Orthodox church or simply stay home.  I would vote with my feet like others have already done.

[stanley123]

Where did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth.

THIS particular Mass may be invalid---considering the awful abuses already taking place, how do you know they were not using invalid matter? 

So you question the validity of the Mass of a Catholic bishop? What about the bishops that he consecrated. Do you question the validity of those consecrations also? If these are all of questionable validity, then what happens to the credibility of the Catholic Church?

[Entscheidungsproblem]

So you question the validity of the Mass of a Catholic bishop? What about the bishops that he consecrated. Do you question the validity of those consecrations also? If these are all of questionable validity, then what happens to the credibility of the Catholic Church?

I don't see what those he consecrated has to do with anything.  Lubeltri is questioning the validity of a single mass the Bishop presided over, not the Bishop's office.  If the consecration services were valid and licit, what issue would a single mass have over them?

[stanley123]

He has not been formally excommunicated. But as a heretic, he has excommunicated himself. Not having a piece of paper stating so does not mean he has not already broken communion with the Church.

I don't think that you are the standing authority in the Roman Catholic Church to decide whether or not a particular bishop has been excommunicated or not.

[lubeltri]

I don't think that you are the standing authority in the Roman Catholic Church to decide whether or not a particular bishop has been excommunicated or not.

Read canon 1364. Heretics are excommunicated latae sententiae. Celebrating a sacrilegious liturgy for a manifestly schismatic and heretical organization is only the latest piece of evidence of this sorry bishop's effective abandonment of communion with the Catholic Church.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM

[lubeltri]

If my Hierarch ignored me, I would find my way to another Orthodox church or simply stay home.  I would vote with my feet like others have already done.

Exactly what I did after attending John Kerry's church. The Paulist Fathers are on death's doorstep as a society anyway---though they are probably mystified over why.

[stanley123]

Read canon 1364. Heretics are excommunicated latae sententiae. Celebrating a sacrilegious liturgy for a manifestly schismatic and heretical organization is only the latest piece of evidence of this sorry bishop's effective abandonment of communion with the Catholic Church.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM

Where has it been proven that this liturgy was in any way sacrilegious. It is more or less a typical modernised form of the R Catholic liturgy. A modernised liturgy been seen in many different RC Churches across various countries and continents. For example, there was a Chinese dragon Mass in the Los Angeles area held to celebrate the Chinese New Year. The faithful were told to touch the Chinese dragon as it was passing through the Church in order to receive good luck for the coming year.   
It has not been proven that this bishop or any other R Catholic bishop has been excommunicated. The personal and private interpretation of an anonymous blogger on the internet that this priest or that bishop is a heretic is not proof. In fact, according to some of the Orthodox here, especially the Old Calendar members, some of the positions held by all of the R Catholic bishops are interpreted as being heretical. Using your private interpretation of this canon, that heretics are automatically excommunicated,  it would then follow that each and every Catholic bishop is excommunicated, which of course, is not true. Regardless of what you or any other anonymous blogger says, the retired bishop is officially in good standing with his diocese in Canada and this can be verified by contacting his diocese. 

[stanley123]

Exactly what I did after attending John Kerry's church. The Paulist Fathers are on death's doorstep as a society anyway---though they are probably mystified over why.

Are they all excommunicated also?

[lubeltri]

Are they all excommunicated also?

If they are culpable for heresy, yes. I can't speak for every Paulist, but I do know some of them to be manifestly heretical.

[Jakub]

Although it pained me, I started a poll at CA regarding the Pope's altar setting to see how many understand the significance, I guess not much, 100 views and 7 responses, including "why would one want to"...


A stiff neck and ignorant people...

[Entscheidungsproblem]

including "why would one want to"...

*rolls eyes*


The parish my parents attend, even though it is a very modern building and it might "look out of place", has adopted the Pope's altar setting.

[lubeltri]

In fact, according to some of the Orthodox here, especially the Old Calendar members, some of the positions held by all of the R Catholic bishops are interpreted as being heretical. Using your private interpretation of this canon, that heretics are automatically excommunicated,  it would then follow that each and every Catholic bishop is excommunicated, which of course, is not true. Regardless of what you or any other anonymous blogger says, the retired bishop is officially in good standing with his diocese in Canada and this can be verified by contacting his diocese. 

Pardon me for saying so, but what illogical nonsense. Since when do Catholics determine heresy based on EO criteria?

Being in "official" (as you call it) good standing does not mean that somebody has not excommunicated himself. Once again, canon 1364. We are not a Church of paper. Catholics do not have free reign with all teachings until/unless they get slapped with an official decree.

De Roo has a long record of heresy in his writings and speeches. Look him up: women priests, moral teachings, the priesthood, the episcopacy, etc. Thank God he is not functioning in any pastoral capacity. To celebrate a sacrilegious Mass (assuming it was valid) for a manifestly schismatic and heretical organization (and to speak at its conference, all off Church property for obvious reasons) is only the icing on the cake. Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, prefect of the Congregation for Bishops, writes, "The activities of 'Call to Action' in the course of these years are in contrast with the Catholic faith due to views and positions held which are unacceptable from a doctrinal and disciplinary standpoint. . . Thus to be a member of this Association or to support it, is irreconcilable with a coherent living of the Catholic Faith."

Lastly, that display at the CTA conference was not at all typical. I've never been to a Mass even close to that, and neither has anyone I know. It didn't even happen in a church.

  Honestly.

[stanley123]

If they are culpable for heresy, yes. I can't speak for every Paulist, but I do know some of them to be manifestly heretical.

Sorry, but I really don't see where an individual such as yourself, with basically no apparent credentials except that of an anonymous internet blogger,  is authorised to determine who is and who is not excommunicated from the R. Catholic Church. You simply do not have the authority to make that determination and decision for the R Catholic Church. I will go with what the R Catholic diocese of Boston says and with what the RC diocese of Victoria, Canada says.  And all indications from the diocesan officials are that these individuals are in good standing in the RCC today.

[Rosehip]

Talk about doing things backwards (not to speak of  belated! and unsolicited! and unqualified!) but to whom it may concern: I am now officially announcing that I have actually viewed the OP youtube clip! Quite a feeling when those monstrous puppets enter the room! One feels awkwardness, discomfort, embarrassment! I can't imagine how strange those mostly elderly folks must surely feel about this invasion of over-sized stuffed puppets! Most disconcerting!  I'm very glad I'm Orthodox!

[Entscheidungsproblem]

Talk about doing things backwards (not to speak of  belated! and unsolicited! and unqualified!) but to whom it may concern: I am now officially announcing that I have actually viewed the OP youtube clip! Quite a feeling when those monstrous puppets enter the room! One feels awkwardness, discomfort, embarrassment! I can't imagine how strange those mostly elderly folks must surely feel about this invasion of over-sized stuffed puppets! Most disconcerting!  I'm very glad I'm Orthodox!

Since it was the closing "liturgy" at a 'Call to Action' conference, they had likely seen it before.  The organisation has been excommunicated, which they appealed, but it was upheld by the Congregation for Bishops in 2006.

[Rosehip]

Since it was the closing "liturgy" at a 'Call to Action' conference, they had likely seen it before.  The organisation has been excommunicated, which they appealed, but it was upheld by the Congregation for Bishops in 2006.

Thanks for patiently explaining to someone who simply hasn't been following/paying attention...but I'm still sitting here shaking my head in disbelief...I mean, those puppets weren't even nice-looking puppets...

[Entscheidungsproblem]

Thanks for patiently explaining to someone who simply hasn't been following/paying attention...but I'm still sitting here shaking my head in disbelief...I mean, those puppets weren't even nice-looking puppets...

Oh I know, they are the things of nightmares.   

[lubeltri]

Talk about doing things backwards (not to speak of  belated! and unsolicited! and unqualified!) but to whom it may concern: I am now officially announcing that I have actually viewed the OP youtube clip! Quite a feeling when those monstrous puppets enter the room! One feels awkwardness, discomfort, embarrassment! I can't imagine how strange those mostly elderly folks must surely feel about this invasion of over-sized stuffed puppets! Most disconcerting! 

I doubt they felt strange. You see, it wasn't a Mass at a parish church. It was a Mass at a conference of a group known as Call to Action. It's one of those notorious "Catholic" pressure groups lobbying the Church to abandon its teachings on a whole variety of issues (others include Catholics for a Free Choice, Dignity, Roman Catholic Womenpriests, Voice of the Faithful, and the Rainbow Sash Movement). CtA does not hold its events on Church property (which is just as well, since they frequently portray themselves as the Israelites against the Pharoah in the Vatican).

The attendees at that Mass were mostly either members of CtA or supporters. They are all elderly because they've been waiting for the Church to change her teachings since their salad days in the 1960s and 1970s. How did their liturgical celebration get so ridiculous? They've been out of communion with the Church (in spirit, i.e., in reality) for 40 years...a branch sundered from the tree will eventually wither.

I fear that they are so ideologically hardened in their rebellion that it will be very difficult for them to be reconciled.



[MTA: Oops, Friul already answered. Thanks, Friul!]

[LBK]

For what my ten cents is worth:

The short answer to "could it happen to the Orthodox" is this: It would be a particularly foolish priest or bishop who would even try. If he did, he would be called before his superior, pronto, and asked to explain himself. Chances are, even if the infraction was relatively minor, he may well have to serve out a period of penance (such as withdrawal of the right to hear confessions).

If anything as "innovative" or grotesque as a "puppet liturgy" was ever to take place in an Orthodox church, I would bet anything that the gathered laity would rise up and prevail upon the errant priest right there and then to cease and desist. If he's lucky, he might not even be frogmarched out of the church by the yiayies or the babushki! 

To be fair to our RC friends on this forum, not all of the RC world is as loopy as some of those in the US. Standards are being maintained in at least some parts of the world. A parallel would be the case in late 2004 of a Roman Catholic priest in the Australian city of Brisbane who, of his own volition, performed a number of baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer", instead of "the Father, Son and Holy Spirit". Not surprisingly, the Archbishop of Brisbane ordered the errant priest to stop this practice immediately.

The highest-ranking Roman Catholic cleric in Australia, the Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell, also entered the fray, as was his responsibility. He ensured an investigation was instituted to determine the sacramental validity or otherwise of these baptisms. The Vatican has now decreed that this unconventional wording renders such baptisms invalid, as it is not according to the canonical Trinitarian "formula", therefore people thus baptised must be baptised again to restore sacramental validity.

The scary thing is that the errant priest had conducted such baptisms for something like ten years, and was only brought to account when the grandfather of a child to be baptised heard the wording, and approached his local bishop with his concerns.