Modernism in the RCC, liturgical abuses and can it happen here?

[Heracleides]

Split from:  The non-Catholic counterfeit Vatican II sect

-- Friul

Pretty much.  Especially with the heresy of modernism, they pretty much claim anything post-Pius XII is heretical.

I for one can not fault them to much for such a view - the following Youtube video of a 2008 Roman Catholic Mass being a fine example of why I feel this way... 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY


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[Euthymios]

Oh, and by the way, the primacy of Rome has absolutely nothing to do with it being the emperial city. The father's and councils teach that the divine primacy of Rome is based on Peter having the authority of the keys and conferring that authority to his successors, the popes. The primacy comes from the Gospels.

If anyone wants to debate me on this subeject alone, send me a PM.

[Αριστοκλής]

Afraid of the Private forums? Why PMs?

Glad you outted yourself as a popist. Don't you feel better now. Lying is a sin, no?

[Euthymios]

Afraid of the Private forums? Why PMs?

Glad you outted yourself as a popist. Don't you feel better now. Lying is a sin, no?

Judging is a sin. I wanted a PM because I had not intended to come back here for a while.

[Αριστοκλής]

Judging is a sin. I wanted a PM because I had not intended to come back here for a while.

Stepped around that, didn't you?
As to PMs...well, I guess that makes sense - to you maybe.

[ozgeorge]

Judging is a sin.

Physician, heal thyself.......

Orthodoxy is an ethnic religion with no Christianity in it. The people are arrogant and very un-loving; especially the Greeks.

[Euthymios]

I have never seen such arrogant and judgemental people in my life. Father Seraphim's words are much needed today. Orthodox people need to aquire "Orthodoxy of the heart." I call it "conversion of the heart." I believe most Orthodox today have never even had a conversion experience. They think they become holy by "association." I call this "Potluck Christianity." A person does not become Christian or holy just because they go to Church. Conversion is an internal thing.

[lubeltri]

I for one can not fault them to much for such a view - the following Youtube video of a 2008 Roman Catholic Mass being a fine example of why I feel this way... 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY

A "Mass" (validity could be questioned) celebrated by a group of (likely excommunicated) heretics is not a representative example.

Would you like EO to be represented by the screwiest nutter in Mount Athos?

[ozgeorge]

I have never seen such arrogant and judgemental people in my life. Father Seraphim's words are much needed today. Orthodox people need to aquire "Orthodoxy of the heart." I call it "conversion of the heart." I believe most Orthodox today have never even had a conversion experience. They think they become holy by "association." I call this "Potluck Christianity." A person does not become Christian or holy just because they go to Church. Conversion is an internal thing.

Judging is a sin.

Ummmm........

[Heracleides]

A "Mass" (validity could be questioned) celebrated by a group of (likely excommunicated) heretics is not a representative example.

Would you like EO to be represented by the screwiest nutter in Mount Athos?

Oh please - show me one example of a puppet (or other equally absurd) Divine Liturgy on Holy Mount Athos or elsewhere. 

Such tripe as the puppet Roman Catholic Mass and other joke 'celebrations' are more common than you folks are comfortable in admitting.

[Euthymios]

The abuses are rare and are the work of the Freemasons. They went after the Catholic Church to cause a domino affect. Since Rome is the rock and immovable foundation, according to the Fathers, the Freemasonic agenda is to destroy and discredit the apostolic see at Rome and all other churches will crumble.

[Αριστοκλής]

^ Batty; absolutely Loony Tunes.

I have never seen such arrogant and judgemental people in my life. Father Seraphim's words are much needed today. Orthodox people need to aquire "Orthodoxy of the heart." I call it "conversion of the heart." I believe most Orthodox today have never even had a conversion experience. They think they become holy by "association." I call this "Potluck Christianity." A person does not become Christian or holy just because they go to Church. Conversion is an internal thing.

Off topic aren't you? We're awaiting your conversion.
Why you're in "Warning, moderation, muting, banning'" mode, my boy! Type on!

[lubeltri]

Oh please - show me one example of a puppet (or other equally absurd) Divine Liturgy on Holy Mount Athos or elsewhere. 

Such tripe as the puppet Roman Catholic Mass and other joke 'celebrations' are more common than you folks are comfortable in admitting.

Sorry---they aren't, which is why they are popular on Youtube. Call to Action is an ageing heretical group that is irrelevant in the Church today.

Before you jump onto my Church, take a good look at the deplorable state yours is in.

[Heracleides]

Sorry---they aren't, which is why they are popular on Youtube. Call to Action is an ageing heretical group that is irrelevant in the Church today.

Before you jump onto my Church, take a good look at the deplorable state yours is in.

And yet oddly enough I cannot find one example of an absurd travisty of the Divine Liturgy on Youtube, whereas it is littered with mangeled examples of the NO Roman Mass.

Just a fluke I am sure... 
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[Anastasios]

Judging is a sin. I wanted a PM because I had not intended to come back here for a while.

Not always -- read Corinthians.

[Anastasios]

Let's not argue about Modernism in the RC Church here. That is a topic that can be discussed in another thread.

[Andrea]

May I ask, in the Orthodox church, if someone was abusing the Liturgy to such an extent, what would happen to them? 

Andrea

[prodromas]

May I ask, in the Orthodox church, if someone was abusing the Liturgy to such an extent, what would happen to them? 

Andrea

Well I don't know exactly what would happen, but I can assure you that with Orthodoxy there is hardly any room for change in liturgy.m When you talk about Conservative vs Liberal Catholic there can be vast differences in beliefs but with Orthodoxy a Conservative and Liberal parishioner are not as different in beliefs. I  quite liberal but if I was in Catholicism I would be considered as conservative and traditional as they come.

[stanley123]

I for one can not fault them to much for such a view - the following Youtube video of a 2008 Roman Catholic Mass being a fine example of why I feel this way... 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY

I don't know what happened to the RCC. 

[stanley123]

The abuses are rare and are the work of the Freemasons.

Actually, in my personal opinion, they are not so rare and further, many people are not calling them liturgical abuses, but developments.

[stanley123]

Aren't these claims ludicrous as a Roman Catholic is distinguished by a belief that the Roman Pontiff is universal and supreme ruler of the church? So how can you create a sect holding Roman Catholic beliefs?

If you agree that Pope Benedict is the Pope of the RCC, then they would be ludicrous. However, if you take the view of sedevacantism, then they become more reasonable, but mostly to a small number of Catholics. Too much has changed in the RCC since Vatican II. Take for example, the question of marriage annulments. In 1930, there were 9 marriage annulments granted in the whole USA, whereas in recent years it has been running as high as 60,000 per year in the USA.

[Marc1152]

Well I don't know exactly what would happen, but I can assure you that with Orthodoxy there is hardly any room for change in liturgy.m When you talk about Conservative vs Liberal Catholic there can be vast differences in beliefs but with Orthodoxy a Conservative and Liberal parishioner are not as different in beliefs. I  quite liberal but if I was in Catholicism I would be considered as conservative and traditional as they come.

Right. A "Liberal Orthodox" would be a very conservative Roman Catholic and a Conservative Orthodox would be more like a Roman Catholic Monastic.

[Ebor]

^ Batty; absolutely Loony Tunes.

The post you're referring to reminds me of a Jack Chick publication.

[Peter J]

A "Mass" (validity could be questioned) celebrated by a group of (likely excommunicated) heretics is not a representative example.

Would you like EO to be represented by the screwiest nutter in Mount Athos?

Oh please - show me one example of a puppet (or other equally absurd) Divine Liturgy on Holy Mount Athos or elsewhere. 

Such tripe as the puppet Roman Catholic Mass and other joke 'celebrations' are more common than you folks are comfortable in admitting.

I think lubeltri's only real mistake here is in choosing Mount Athos as his example. (If I was going to compare Mount Athos to something on the Catholic side, I would say it's like what the SSPX would be like if Lefebvre had never done the unauthorized ordination.) Otherwise, I'd say lubeltri's logic make perfect sense: if we could find footage of liturgical abuses by an "Orthodox" (possibly already excommunicated) priest, what would that prove? Nothing.

[lubeltri]

Right. A "Liberal Orthodox" would be a very conservative Roman Catholic and a Conservative Orthodox would be more like a Roman Catholic Monastic.

I used to think this but now see it as a myth. Just look at OC.net and you can find a good number of EO who if Catholic would be quite on the "progressive" side. EO is not immune from modernism.

[stanley123]

I used to think this but now see it as a myth. Just look at OC.net and you can find a good number of EO who if Catholic would be quite on the "progressive" side. EO is not immune from modernism.

But how about from the liturgical point of view? It seems to me that EO are quite traditional and conservative from the point of view of the Liturgy. Take a look at what has happened to the RC Mass since Vatican II. It has become quite modernised in many respects, and pretty much different from the way it was before Vatican II.  For example, here is a Mass celebrated by a retired Catholic bishop, Bishop Remi Joseph De Roo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY

[The Iambic Pen]

Just look at OC.net and you can find a good number of EO who if Catholic would be quite on the "progressive" side.

I have also noticed this.

[lubeltri]

But how about from the liturgical point of view? It seems to me that EO are quite traditional and conservative from the point of view of the Liturgy. Take a look at what has happened to the RC Mass since Vatican II. It has become quite modernised in many respects, and pretty much different from the way it was before Vatican II.  For example, here is a Mass celebrated by a retired Catholic bishop, Bishop Remi Joseph De Roo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY

A link to that freak show has already been posted on this thread.

Second, it is not at all a representative example of the 2002 Missale Romanum. It may not even be valid---it goes without saying that it is gravely illicit, not to mention celebrated by likely excommunicated heretics.

[Entscheidungsproblem]

But how about from the liturgical point of view? It seems to me that EO are quite traditional and conservative from the point of view of the Liturgy. Take a look at what has happened to the RC Mass since Vatican II. It has become quite modernised in many respects, and pretty much different from the way it was before Vatican II.  For example, here is a Mass celebrated by a retired Catholic bishop, Bishop Remi Joseph De Roo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY

Being that Bishop Remi Josepth De Roo is from British Columbia, the modernism and liberalism hardly surprises me.  I guess at least they "used" incense, that seems lack from many Novus Ordo masses.     I have never understood why garbage like this happens.  When I was a practicing Roman Catholic I used to mostly attend the Tridentine mass, but also went to a small Italian parish periodically for the new mass.  It was always done respectfully with proper vestments, proper chants, and actual reverence and respect during the service.  No hap-hazard and disgusting twirling of the Gospel...

[Andrea]

I have never understood why garbage like this happens. 

Yeah, I am really struggling with this. It seems like there is just free reign to do whatever and nothing is said or done about it. OK, so I've never seen giant puppets at Mass, but I have seen my fair share of abuses. We were even taught a liturgical dance in RCIA! (I took my kids and ran from the room the second the folk guitar music started. My poor husband stood and watched.) Anyway, if what we have today is "not what the council intended" then what the heck has taken so long to put it right? If ripping out tabernacles, altars, statues, etc is not what was supposed to happen, how come no one stopped it?  How come Bishops and Archbishops preside over ridiculous abuses and nothing happens? 

Sorry for venting, I am having a very hard time, I cried all through Mass yesterday...the minute the folk guitar and hippy tunes started up...you know, we have to drive 1 1/2 hours just to go to a NO that would be reverently celebrated? That's how rare they are here.

[Heracleides]

The (current) all-time award winner for absurd modern RC 'worship' has to be the following 2006 "Dancing Eucharist" benediction service in Brazil - an event attended by Catholic Cardinals, Archbishops, and Bishops.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRULNTperWE
.

[stanley123]

A link to that freak show has already been posted on this thread.

Second, it is not at all a representative example of the 2002 Missale Romanum. It may not even be valid---it goes without saying that it is gravely illicit, not to mention celebrated by likely excommunicated heretics.

But if a Mass by a Catholic bishop in good standing with the Catholic Church is not valid, then what does that say about the credibility of the Catholic Church?

[Entscheidungsproblem]

But if a Mass by a Catholic bishop in good standing with the Catholic Church is not valid, then what does that say about the credibility of the Catholic Church?

If Francis Cardinal Arinze and Archbishop Francesco Monterisi are aware of it and they are not doing anything about it, then I would be worried.

[Heracleides]

If Francis Cardinal Arinze and Archbishop Francesco Monterisi are aware of it and they are not doing anything about it, then I would be worried.

Giving them the benefit of the doubt, perhaps the RC's on this forum should write, with links to Youtube included, the two individuals listed above and make them aware.  Doubtless their swift action will then be evident for all to witness.
.

[Rosehip]

And yet oddly enough I cannot find one example of an absurd travisty of the Divine Liturgy on Youtube, whereas it is littered with mangeled examples of the NO Roman Mass.

Just a fluke I am sure... 
.

Well, I know next to nothing about the RCC, but as  I watched this Liturgical Dance Mass linked above, it  brought to mind the joyful feast of Simhat Torah (the joy of the Torah), when the usual decorum is waived in honor of the  conclusion of the annual liturgical reading cycle, and people dance joyfully with the Torah scrolls.

Anyhow, for some reason this movie seemed to me more godly than the one I watched yesterday with the fanatical American  "5 Point Calvinists" spewing hatred and preaching the gospel of a cruel, hateful god.

[stanley123]

If Francis Cardinal Arinze and Archbishop Francesco Monterisi are aware of it and they are not doing anything about it, then I would be worried.

Watching the clips from the liturgy and being at the liturgy are not exactly the same thing. If some people get something positive out of a more modern liturgy, then what gives people the right to go around saying that the liturgy may be invalid? The retired  bishop is in good standing with the Catholic Church and I don't see how lubeltri can say that the Mass may not be valid, unless he knows something that the Catholic Church does not know.

[prodromas]

Well, I know next to nothing about the RCC, but as  I watched this Liturgical Dance Mass linked above, it  brought to mind the joyful feast of Simhat Torah (the joy of the Torah), when the usual decorum is waived in honor of the  conclusion of the annual liturgical reading cycle, and people dance joyfully with the Torah scrolls.

Anyhow, for some reason this movie seemed to me more godly than the one I watched yesterday with the fanatical American  "5 Point Calvinists" spewing hatred and preaching the gospel of a cruel, hateful god.

"shut ur trap while I quote you sum scriptcha"

But seriously I would have to agree there was no puppets or clowns. Who sanctions the creation of the liturgical dance? does anyone know how old the dance is?

[lubeltri]

Watching the clips from the liturgy and being at the liturgy are not exactly the same thing. If some people get something positive out of a more modern liturgy, then what gives people the right to go around saying that the liturgy may be invalid? The retired  bishop is in good standing with the Catholic Church and I don't see how lubeltri can say that the Mass may not be valid, unless he knows something that the Catholic Church does not know.

How do you know they were not using invalid matter? And how about the intention of the bishop? The consecration was butchered. There are questions... For the sake of the communicants I certainly hope it was invalid.

The bishop is not in good standing with the Church...you don't need a decree to see that.

[stanley123]

How do you know they were not using invalid matter? And how about the intention of the bishop? The consecration was butchered. There are questions... For the sake of the communicants I certainly hope it was invalid.

So you question the validity of Masses celebrated by Catholic bishops ?

[stanley123]

The bishop is not in good standing with the Church...you don't need a decree to see that.

The following website lists Bishop Remi Joseph De Roo as
Bishop Emeritus of Victoria, British Columbia. He was ordained a Catholic bishop on December 14, 1962. He was the principal co-consecrator of Archbishop Antoine Hacault  and Bishop Lawrence Sabatini, C.S. Do you say that these two Catholic bishops are also not in good standing? And according to the website, he may be contacted through the diocese of Victoria, Canada:
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bderoo.html
Where is your support for the statement that he is not in good standing in the Catholic Church today?

[stanley123]

The bishop is not in good standing with the Church...you don't need a decree to see that.

I don't see any support for your statement. On the contrary:
Here is an excerpt from an article on Bishop de Roo:
“Not everyone recognizes the defining moment of his or her life, even if it is right in front of them. Tonight, we are grateful that Bishop Remi De Roo did recognize his defining moment when he was doubly summoned. He recognized the momentous import of Vatican II and spent his next 40 years as.a bishop responding to it.

Each one of us here can bear witness to how our faith has been transformed, challenged and made whole by the vision articulated at Vatican II. The opening words of Gaudium et Spes (1965) are as breathtaking now as then: "The joys and the hopes, the griefs and the anxieties of the (people) of this age, especially those who are poor or in any way afflicted, these, too, are the joys and hopes, the griefs and the anxieties of the followers of Christ."

Bishop De Roo, the youngest bishop at Vatican II, was taken beyond himself by this vast horizon of hope. He became one its most articulate and intelligent apostles and spent his years in Victoria trying to implement the vision of the church as outlined in the documents of Vatican II.

The people of the Diocese of Victoria know the dedication and sincerity he brought to this task….”
http://goliath.ecnext.com/comsite5/bin/pdinventory.pl?pdlanding=1&referid=2750&item_id=0199-1179212

[lubeltri]

He has not been formally excommunicated. But as a heretic, he has excommunicated himself. Not having a piece of paper stating so does not mean he has not already broken communion with the Church.

[lubeltri]

So you question the validity of Masses celebrated by Catholic bishops ?

Where did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth.

THIS particular Mass may be invalid---considering the awful abuses already taking place, how do you know they were not using invalid matter?

There is a local church (John Kerry's, in fact) which has terrible abuses (though not as bad as that Call to Action, thank goodness). I've been there a couple of times, but I never received Communion because it might be invalid. It's questionable when so many flagrant abuses are occuring. 

[SolEX01]

What is the point?   

As long as a 5 piece Christian Rock Band doesn't perform at any Orthodox Divine Liturgy, there's really nothing for us to worry about?  If Christian Rock Bands want to perform at RC services, let Pope Benedict XVI make that decision; after all, he claims infalliability.

[Papist]

What is the point?   

As long as a 5 piece Christian Rock Band doesn't perform at any Orthodox Divine Liturgy, there's really nothing for us to worry about?  If Christian Rock Bands want to perform at RC services, let Pope Benedict XVI make that decision; after all, he claims infalliability.

Papal infallibility has nothing to do with pastoral decisions made by the Holy Father.

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