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Author Topic: Modernism in the RCC, liturgical abuses and can it happen here?  (Read 8593 times) Average Rating: 0
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Heracleides
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« on: May 11, 2008, 11:56:49 PM »

Split from:  The non-Catholic counterfeit Vatican II sect

-- Friul


Pretty much.  Especially with the heresy of modernism, they pretty much claim anything post-Pius XII is heretical.

I for one can not fault them to much for such a view - the following Youtube video of a 2008 Roman Catholic Mass being a fine example of why I feel this way...  Roll Eyes

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY


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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2008, 12:14:41 AM »


Oh, and by the way, the primacy of Rome has absolutely nothing to do with it being the emperial city. The father's and councils teach that the divine primacy of Rome is based on Peter having the authority of the keys and conferring that authority to his successors, the popes. The primacy comes from the Gospels.

If anyone wants to debate me on this subeject alone, send me a PM.
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2008, 12:18:15 AM »

Afraid of the Private forums? Why PMs?

Glad you outted yourself as a popist. Don't you feel better now. Lying is a sin, no?
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2008, 12:46:18 AM »

Afraid of the Private forums? Why PMs?

Glad you outted yourself as a popist. Don't you feel better now. Lying is a sin, no?

Judging is a sin. I wanted a PM because I had not intended to come back here for a while.
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 12:50:31 AM »

Judging is a sin. I wanted a PM because I had not intended to come back here for a while.

Stepped around that, didn't you?
As to PMs...well, I guess that makes sense - to you maybe.
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2008, 01:01:35 AM »

Judging is a sin.
Physician, heal thyself.......

Orthodoxy is an ethnic religion with no Christianity in it. The people are arrogant and very un-loving; especially the Greeks.
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 01:11:40 AM »


I have never seen such arrogant and judgemental people in my life. Father Seraphim's words are much needed today. Orthodox people need to aquire "Orthodoxy of the heart." I call it "conversion of the heart." I believe most Orthodox today have never even had a conversion experience. They think they become holy by "association." I call this "Potluck Christianity." A person does not become Christian or holy just because they go to Church. Conversion is an internal thing.
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2008, 01:23:31 AM »

I for one can not fault them to much for such a view - the following Youtube video of a 2008 Roman Catholic Mass being a fine example of why I feel this way...  Roll Eyes

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY

A "Mass" (validity could be questioned) celebrated by a group of (likely excommunicated) heretics is not a representative example.

Would you like EO to be represented by the screwiest nutter in Mount Athos?
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2008, 01:24:09 AM »

I have never seen such arrogant and judgemental people in my life. Father Seraphim's words are much needed today. Orthodox people need to aquire "Orthodoxy of the heart." I call it "conversion of the heart." I believe most Orthodox today have never even had a conversion experience. They think they become holy by "association." I call this "Potluck Christianity." A person does not become Christian or holy just because they go to Church. Conversion is an internal thing.

Judging is a sin.

Ummmm........
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2008, 02:17:13 AM »

A "Mass" (validity could be questioned) celebrated by a group of (likely excommunicated) heretics is not a representative example.

Would you like EO to be represented by the screwiest nutter in Mount Athos?

Oh please - show me one example of a puppet (or other equally absurd) Divine Liturgy on Holy Mount Athos or elsewhere.  Roll Eyes

Such tripe as the puppet Roman Catholic Mass and other joke 'celebrations' are more common than you folks are comfortable in admitting.
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2008, 03:04:38 AM »


The abuses are rare and are the work of the Freemasons. They went after the Catholic Church to cause a domino affect. Since Rome is the rock and immovable foundation, according to the Fathers, the Freemasonic agenda is to destroy and discredit the apostolic see at Rome and all other churches will crumble.
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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2008, 07:47:16 AM »

^ Batty; absolutely Loony Tunes.

Quote
I have never seen such arrogant and judgemental people in my life. Father Seraphim's words are much needed today. Orthodox people need to aquire "Orthodoxy of the heart." I call it "conversion of the heart." I believe most Orthodox today have never even had a conversion experience. They think they become holy by "association." I call this "Potluck Christianity." A person does not become Christian or holy just because they go to Church. Conversion is an internal thing.

Off topic aren't you? We're awaiting your conversion.
Why you're in "Warning, moderation, muting, banning'" mode, my boy! Type on!
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« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2008, 09:12:09 AM »

Oh please - show me one example of a puppet (or other equally absurd) Divine Liturgy on Holy Mount Athos or elsewhere.  Roll Eyes

Such tripe as the puppet Roman Catholic Mass and other joke 'celebrations' are more common than you folks are comfortable in admitting.

Sorry---they aren't, which is why they are popular on Youtube. Call to Action is an ageing heretical group that is irrelevant in the Church today.

Before you jump onto my Church, take a good look at the deplorable state yours is in.
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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2008, 12:28:20 PM »

Sorry---they aren't, which is why they are popular on Youtube. Call to Action is an ageing heretical group that is irrelevant in the Church today.

Before you jump onto my Church, take a good look at the deplorable state yours is in.

And yet oddly enough I cannot find one example of an absurd travisty of the Divine Liturgy on Youtube, whereas it is littered with mangeled examples of the NO Roman Mass.

Just a fluke I am sure...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2008, 12:40:04 PM »

Judging is a sin. I wanted a PM because I had not intended to come back here for a while.

Not always -- read Corinthians.
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« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2008, 12:41:02 PM »

Let's not argue about Modernism in the RC Church here. That is a topic that can be discussed in another thread.
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2008, 11:37:41 AM »

May I ask, in the Orthodox church, if someone was abusing the Liturgy to such an extent, what would happen to them? 

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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2008, 08:23:22 PM »

May I ask, in the Orthodox church, if someone was abusing the Liturgy to such an extent, what would happen to them? 

Andrea

Well I don't know exactly what would happen, but I can assure you that with Orthodoxy there is hardly any room for change in liturgy.m When you talk about Conservative vs Liberal Catholic there can be vast differences in beliefs but with Orthodoxy a Conservative and Liberal parishioner are not as different in beliefs. I  quite liberal but if I was in Catholicism I would be considered as conservative and traditional as they come.
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« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2008, 10:25:08 PM »

I for one can not fault them to much for such a view - the following Youtube video of a 2008 Roman Catholic Mass being a fine example of why I feel this way...  Roll Eyes

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY
I don't know what happened to the RCC. 
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« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2008, 10:27:33 PM »

The abuses are rare and are the work of the Freemasons.
Actually, in my personal opinion, they are not so rare and further, many people are not calling them liturgical abuses, but developments.
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« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2008, 10:31:28 PM »

Aren't these claims ludicrous as a Roman Catholic is distinguished by a belief that the Roman Pontiff is universal and supreme ruler of the church? So how can you create a sect holding Roman Catholic beliefs?
If you agree that Pope Benedict is the Pope of the RCC, then they would be ludicrous. However, if you take the view of sedevacantism, then they become more reasonable, but mostly to a small number of Catholics. Too much has changed in the RCC since Vatican II. Take for example, the question of marriage annulments. In 1930, there were 9 marriage annulments granted in the whole USA, whereas in recent years it has been running as high as 60,000 per year in the USA.
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« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2008, 10:33:36 PM »

Well I don't know exactly what would happen, but I can assure you that with Orthodoxy there is hardly any room for change in liturgy.m When you talk about Conservative vs Liberal Catholic there can be vast differences in beliefs but with Orthodoxy a Conservative and Liberal parishioner are not as different in beliefs. I  quite liberal but if I was in Catholicism I would be considered as conservative and traditional as they come.

Right. A "Liberal Orthodox" would be a very conservative Roman Catholic and a Conservative Orthodox would be more like a Roman Catholic Monastic.
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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2008, 01:04:30 PM »

^ Batty; absolutely Loony Tunes.

The post you're referring to reminds me of a Jack Chick publication.

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« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2008, 10:14:27 PM »

A "Mass" (validity could be questioned) celebrated by a group of (likely excommunicated) heretics is not a representative example.

Would you like EO to be represented by the screwiest nutter in Mount Athos?

Oh please - show me one example of a puppet (or other equally absurd) Divine Liturgy on Holy Mount Athos or elsewhere.  Roll Eyes

Such tripe as the puppet Roman Catholic Mass and other joke 'celebrations' are more common than you folks are comfortable in admitting.

I think lubeltri's only real mistake here is in choosing Mount Athos as his example. (If I was going to compare Mount Athos to something on the Catholic side, I would say it's like what the SSPX would be like if Lefebvre had never done the unauthorized ordination.) Otherwise, I'd say lubeltri's logic make perfect sense: if we could find footage of liturgical abuses by an "Orthodox" (possibly already excommunicated) priest, what would that prove? Nothing.
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« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2008, 12:55:43 AM »

Right. A "Liberal Orthodox" would be a very conservative Roman Catholic and a Conservative Orthodox would be more like a Roman Catholic Monastic.

I used to think this but now see it as a myth. Just look at OC.net and you can find a good number of EO who if Catholic would be quite on the "progressive" side. EO is not immune from modernism.
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« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2008, 01:39:53 AM »

I used to think this but now see it as a myth. Just look at OC.net and you can find a good number of EO who if Catholic would be quite on the "progressive" side. EO is not immune from modernism.
But how about from the liturgical point of view? It seems to me that EO are quite traditional and conservative from the point of view of the Liturgy. Take a look at what has happened to the RC Mass since Vatican II. It has become quite modernised in many respects, and pretty much different from the way it was before Vatican II.  For example, here is a Mass celebrated by a retired Catholic bishop, Bishop Remi Joseph De Roo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY

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« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2008, 01:42:08 AM »

Just look at OC.net and you can find a good number of EO who if Catholic would be quite on the "progressive" side.
I have also noticed this.
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« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2008, 02:11:47 AM »

But how about from the liturgical point of view? It seems to me that EO are quite traditional and conservative from the point of view of the Liturgy. Take a look at what has happened to the RC Mass since Vatican II. It has become quite modernised in many respects, and pretty much different from the way it was before Vatican II.  For example, here is a Mass celebrated by a retired Catholic bishop, Bishop Remi Joseph De Roo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY

A link to that freak show has already been posted on this thread.

Second, it is not at all a representative example of the 2002 Missale Romanum. It may not even be valid---it goes without saying that it is gravely illicit, not to mention celebrated by likely excommunicated heretics.
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« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2008, 09:52:50 AM »

But how about from the liturgical point of view? It seems to me that EO are quite traditional and conservative from the point of view of the Liturgy. Take a look at what has happened to the RC Mass since Vatican II. It has become quite modernised in many respects, and pretty much different from the way it was before Vatican II.  For example, here is a Mass celebrated by a retired Catholic bishop, Bishop Remi Joseph De Roo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY

Being that Bishop Remi Josepth De Roo is from British Columbia, the modernism and liberalism hardly surprises me.  I guess at least they "used" incense, that seems lack from many Novus Ordo masses.   Roll Eyes  I have never understood why garbage like this happens.  When I was a practicing Roman Catholic I used to mostly attend the Tridentine mass, but also went to a small Italian parish periodically for the new mass.  It was always done respectfully with proper vestments, proper chants, and actual reverence and respect during the service.  No hap-hazard and disgusting twirling of the Gospel...
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« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2008, 11:38:34 AM »

I have never understood why garbage like this happens. 

Yeah, I am really struggling with this. It seems like there is just free reign to do whatever and nothing is said or done about it. OK, so I've never seen giant puppets at Mass, but I have seen my fair share of abuses. We were even taught a liturgical dance in RCIA! (I took my kids and ran from the room the second the folk guitar music started. My poor husband stood and watched.) Anyway, if what we have today is "not what the council intended" then what the heck has taken so long to put it right? If ripping out tabernacles, altars, statues, etc is not what was supposed to happen, how come no one stopped it?  How come Bishops and Archbishops preside over ridiculous abuses and nothing happens? 

Sorry for venting, I am having a very hard time, I cried all through Mass yesterday...the minute the folk guitar and hippy tunes started up...you know, we have to drive 1 1/2 hours just to go to a NO that would be reverently celebrated? That's how rare they are here.
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« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2008, 02:03:05 PM »

The (current) all-time award winner for absurd modern RC 'worship' has to be the following 2006 "Dancing Eucharist" benediction service in Brazil - an event attended by Catholic Cardinals, Archbishops, and Bishops.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRULNTperWE
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« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2008, 04:51:20 PM »

A link to that freak show has already been posted on this thread.

Second, it is not at all a representative example of the 2002 Missale Romanum. It may not even be valid---it goes without saying that it is gravely illicit, not to mention celebrated by likely excommunicated heretics.
But if a Mass by a Catholic bishop in good standing with the Catholic Church is not valid, then what does that say about the credibility of the Catholic Church?
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« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2008, 04:59:38 PM »

But if a Mass by a Catholic bishop in good standing with the Catholic Church is not valid, then what does that say about the credibility of the Catholic Church?

If Francis Cardinal Arinze and Archbishop Francesco Monterisi are aware of it and they are not doing anything about it, then I would be worried.
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« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2008, 05:59:04 PM »

If Francis Cardinal Arinze and Archbishop Francesco Monterisi are aware of it and they are not doing anything about it, then I would be worried.

Giving them the benefit of the doubt, perhaps the RC's on this forum should write, with links to Youtube included, the two individuals listed above and make them aware.  Doubtless their swift action will then be evident for all to witness.
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« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2008, 06:42:06 PM »

And yet oddly enough I cannot find one example of an absurd travisty of the Divine Liturgy on Youtube, whereas it is littered with mangeled examples of the NO Roman Mass.

Just a fluke I am sure...  Roll Eyes
.

Well, I know next to nothing about the RCC, but as  I watched this Liturgical Dance Mass linked above, it  brought to mind the joyful feast of Simhat Torah (the joy of the Torah), when the usual decorum is waived in honor of the  conclusion of the annual liturgical reading cycle, and people dance joyfully with the Torah scrolls.

Anyhow, for some reason this movie seemed to me more godly than the one I watched yesterday with the fanatical American  "5 Point Calvinists" spewing hatred and preaching the gospel of a cruel, hateful god.
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« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2008, 07:30:28 PM »

If Francis Cardinal Arinze and Archbishop Francesco Monterisi are aware of it and they are not doing anything about it, then I would be worried.
Watching the clips from the liturgy and being at the liturgy are not exactly the same thing. If some people get something positive out of a more modern liturgy, then what gives people the right to go around saying that the liturgy may be invalid? The retired  bishop is in good standing with the Catholic Church and I don't see how lubeltri can say that the Mass may not be valid, unless he knows something that the Catholic Church does not know.
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« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2008, 10:53:54 PM »

Well, I know next to nothing about the RCC, but as  I watched this Liturgical Dance Mass linked above, it  brought to mind the joyful feast of Simhat Torah (the joy of the Torah), when the usual decorum is waived in honor of the  conclusion of the annual liturgical reading cycle, and people dance joyfully with the Torah scrolls.

Anyhow, for some reason this movie seemed to me more godly than the one I watched yesterday with the fanatical American  "5 Point Calvinists" spewing hatred and preaching the gospel of a cruel, hateful god.

"shut ur trap while I quote you sum scriptcha"

But seriously I would have to agree there was no puppets or clowns. Who sanctions the creation of the liturgical dance? does anyone know how old the dance is?
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« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2008, 12:16:43 AM »

Watching the clips from the liturgy and being at the liturgy are not exactly the same thing. If some people get something positive out of a more modern liturgy, then what gives people the right to go around saying that the liturgy may be invalid? The retired  bishop is in good standing with the Catholic Church and I don't see how lubeltri can say that the Mass may not be valid, unless he knows something that the Catholic Church does not know.

How do you know they were not using invalid matter? And how about the intention of the bishop? The consecration was butchered. There are questions... For the sake of the communicants I certainly hope it was invalid.

The bishop is not in good standing with the Church...you don't need a decree to see that.
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« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2008, 01:52:35 AM »

How do you know they were not using invalid matter? And how about the intention of the bishop? The consecration was butchered. There are questions... For the sake of the communicants I certainly hope it was invalid.
So you question the validity of Masses celebrated by Catholic bishops ?
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« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2008, 01:56:16 AM »

The bishop is not in good standing with the Church...you don't need a decree to see that.
The following website lists Bishop Remi Joseph De Roo as
Bishop Emeritus of Victoria, British Columbia. He was ordained a Catholic bishop on December 14, 1962. He was the principal co-consecrator of Archbishop Antoine Hacault  and Bishop Lawrence Sabatini, C.S. Do you say that these two Catholic bishops are also not in good standing? And according to the website, he may be contacted through the diocese of Victoria, Canada:
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bderoo.html
Where is your support for the statement that he is not in good standing in the Catholic Church today?

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« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2008, 02:30:40 AM »

The bishop is not in good standing with the Church...you don't need a decree to see that.
I don't see any support for your statement. On the contrary:
Here is an excerpt from an article on Bishop de Roo:
“Not everyone recognizes the defining moment of his or her life, even if it is right in front of them. Tonight, we are grateful that Bishop Remi De Roo did recognize his defining moment when he was doubly summoned. He recognized the momentous import of Vatican II and spent his next 40 years as.a bishop responding to it.

Each one of us here can bear witness to how our faith has been transformed, challenged and made whole by the vision articulated at Vatican II. The opening words of Gaudium et Spes (1965) are as breathtaking now as then: "The joys and the hopes, the griefs and the anxieties of the (people) of this age, especially those who are poor or in any way afflicted, these, too, are the joys and hopes, the griefs and the anxieties of the followers of Christ."

Bishop De Roo, the youngest bishop at Vatican II, was taken beyond himself by this vast horizon of hope. He became one its most articulate and intelligent apostles and spent his years in Victoria trying to implement the vision of the church as outlined in the documents of Vatican II.

The people of the Diocese of Victoria know the dedication and sincerity he brought to this task….”
http://goliath.ecnext.com/comsite5/bin/pdinventory.pl?pdlanding=1&referid=2750&item_id=0199-1179212


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« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2008, 09:07:13 AM »

He has not been formally excommunicated. But as a heretic, he has excommunicated himself. Not having a piece of paper stating so does not mean he has not already broken communion with the Church.

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« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2008, 09:11:59 AM »

So you question the validity of Masses celebrated by Catholic bishops ?

Where did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth.

THIS particular Mass may be invalid---considering the awful abuses already taking place, how do you know they were not using invalid matter?

There is a local church (John Kerry's, in fact) which has terrible abuses (though not as bad as that Call to Action, thank goodness). I've been there a couple of times, but I never received Communion because it might be invalid. It's questionable when so many flagrant abuses are occuring. 
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« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2008, 11:36:29 AM »

What is the point?   Cheesy

As long as a 5 piece Christian Rock Band doesn't perform at any Orthodox Divine Liturgy, there's really nothing for us to worry about?  If Christian Rock Bands want to perform at RC services, let Pope Benedict XVI make that decision; after all, he claims infalliability.
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« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2008, 12:06:59 PM »

What is the point?   Cheesy

As long as a 5 piece Christian Rock Band doesn't perform at any Orthodox Divine Liturgy, there's really nothing for us to worry about?  If Christian Rock Bands want to perform at RC services, let Pope Benedict XVI make that decision; after all, he claims infalliability.
Papal infallibility has nothing to do with pastoral decisions made by the Holy Father.
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« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2008, 12:23:03 PM »

Papal infallibility has nothing to do with pastoral decisions made by the Holy Father.

Quite obviously.   Wink
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« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2008, 12:59:52 PM »

Papal infallibility has nothing to do with pastoral decisions made by the Holy Father.

Infallibility was a poor choice of words because I'm under the impression that the Holy Father can stop rock bands from performing during any Mass by issuing an encyclical binding to the entire RC world.     
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« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2008, 01:12:24 PM »

Infallibility was a poor choice of words because I'm under the impression that the Holy Father can stop rock bands from performing during any Mass by issuing an encyclical binding to the entire RC world.     

See, I would think the Pope could do something like that for a lot of things...like communion into the hand, laity distributing the Eucharist, etc...

So what would happen if a rock band did perform at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy? Is there liturgical abuse in Orthodox Churches, and if so, how is it handled?
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« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2008, 01:17:45 PM »

See, I would think the Pope could do something like that for a lot of things...like communion into the hand, laity distributing the Eucharist, etc...

Surely, He could and none of us know why He doesn't.  Smiley

So what would happen if a rock band did perform at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy? Is there liturgical abuse in Orthodox Churches, and if so, how is it handled?

Personally, I'd dial my Hierarch right away along with others.  The Hierarch would investigate and take any action necessary to ensure that such a thing wouldn't happen again.
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« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2008, 01:39:48 PM »

like communion into the hand, laity distributing the Eucharist

It is actully being discussed after Archbishop Albert Malcolm Ranjith spoke out about it.
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« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2008, 01:41:29 PM »



Personally, I'd dial my Hierarch right away along with others.  The Hierarch would investigate and take any action necessary to ensure that such a thing wouldn't happen again.

So abuse of the liturgy, or "innovation" is taken very seriously and not tolerated by the Hierarchs?
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« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2008, 01:41:55 PM »

Personally, I'd dial my Hierarch right away along with others.  The Hierarch would investigate and take any action necessary to ensure that such a thing wouldn't happen again.

And if your Hierarch does nothing about it?  And don't say it doesn't happen, because it does.
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« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2008, 01:47:50 PM »

It is actully being discussed after Archbishop Albert Malcolm Ranjith spoke out about it.

I hope so, but I read an article yesterday that didn't make me very hopeful.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802805.htm

From the article: "In addition, he said, "there are no new norms coming" that would change the Vatican's 1969 decision that local bishops could allow their faithful to receive the Eucharist in their hands while standing."




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« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2008, 01:53:39 PM »

I hope so, but I read an article yesterday that didn't make me very hopeful.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802805.htm

From the article: "In addition, he said, "there are no new norms coming" that would change the Vatican's 1969 decision that local bishops could allow their faithful to receive the Eucharist in their hands while standing."

Who knows.  Tongue  Getting definite information out of the Vatican just never seems to happen.  Look how long it took for the Summorum Pontificum to come out after various Bishops and members had said it was "soon".   laugh
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« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2008, 02:00:00 PM »

Who knows.  Tongue  Getting definite information out of the Vatican just never seems to happen.  Look how long it took for the Summorum Pontificum to come out after various Bishops and members had said it was "soon".   laugh

 Grin So true!
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« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2008, 02:09:51 PM »

So abuse of the liturgy, or "innovation" is taken very seriously and not tolerated by the Hierarchs?

Yes.  I've never seen an innovation at any Liturgy for any jurisdiction.  I didn't say that innovations didn't exist.  An Orthodox church with an organ wouldn't be an innovation, based on my understanding of Liturgy.  A Christmas concert on the solea wouldn't be an innovation either because no sacramental worship has occurred.

EDIT - Explained myself further.   Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2008, 02:11:05 PM »

And if your Hierarch does nothing about it?  And don't say it doesn't happen, because it does.

If my Hierarch ignored me, I would find my way to another Orthodox church or simply stay home.  I would vote with my feet like others have already done.
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« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2008, 02:32:43 PM »

Where did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth.

THIS particular Mass may be invalid---considering the awful abuses already taking place, how do you know they were not using invalid matter? 
So you question the validity of the Mass of a Catholic bishop? What about the bishops that he consecrated. Do you question the validity of those consecrations also? If these are all of questionable validity, then what happens to the credibility of the Catholic Church?
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« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2008, 02:41:37 PM »

So you question the validity of the Mass of a Catholic bishop? What about the bishops that he consecrated. Do you question the validity of those consecrations also? If these are all of questionable validity, then what happens to the credibility of the Catholic Church?

I don't see what those he consecrated has to do with anything.  Lubeltri is questioning the validity of a single mass the Bishop presided over, not the Bishop's office.  If the consecration services were valid and licit, what issue would a single mass have over them?
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« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2008, 02:44:46 PM »

He has not been formally excommunicated. But as a heretic, he has excommunicated himself. Not having a piece of paper stating so does not mean he has not already broken communion with the Church.
I don't think that you are the standing authority in the Roman Catholic Church to decide whether or not a particular bishop has been excommunicated or not.
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« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2008, 06:06:06 PM »

I don't think that you are the standing authority in the Roman Catholic Church to decide whether or not a particular bishop has been excommunicated or not.

Read canon 1364. Heretics are excommunicated latae sententiae. Celebrating a sacrilegious liturgy for a manifestly schismatic and heretical organization is only the latest piece of evidence of this sorry bishop's effective abandonment of communion with the Catholic Church.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM
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« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2008, 06:16:19 PM »

If my Hierarch ignored me, I would find my way to another Orthodox church or simply stay home.  I would vote with my feet like others have already done.

Exactly what I did after attending John Kerry's church. The Paulist Fathers are on death's doorstep as a society anyway---though they are probably mystified over why.
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« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2008, 07:35:12 PM »

Read canon 1364. Heretics are excommunicated latae sententiae. Celebrating a sacrilegious liturgy for a manifestly schismatic and heretical organization is only the latest piece of evidence of this sorry bishop's effective abandonment of communion with the Catholic Church.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM
Where has it been proven that this liturgy was in any way sacrilegious. It is more or less a typical modernised form of the R Catholic liturgy. A modernised liturgy been seen in many different RC Churches across various countries and continents. For example, there was a Chinese dragon Mass in the Los Angeles area held to celebrate the Chinese New Year. The faithful were told to touch the Chinese dragon as it was passing through the Church in order to receive good luck for the coming year.   
It has not been proven that this bishop or any other R Catholic bishop has been excommunicated. The personal and private interpretation of an anonymous blogger on the internet that this priest or that bishop is a heretic is not proof. In fact, according to some of the Orthodox here, especially the Old Calendar members, some of the positions held by all of the R Catholic bishops are interpreted as being heretical. Using your private interpretation of this canon, that heretics are automatically excommunicated,  it would then follow that each and every Catholic bishop is excommunicated, which of course, is not true. Regardless of what you or any other anonymous blogger says, the retired bishop is officially in good standing with his diocese in Canada and this can be verified by contacting his diocese. 
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« Reply #63 on: May 27, 2008, 07:35:45 PM »

Exactly what I did after attending John Kerry's church. The Paulist Fathers are on death's doorstep as a society anyway---though they are probably mystified over why.
Are they all excommunicated also?
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« Reply #64 on: May 27, 2008, 07:56:37 PM »

Are they all excommunicated also?

If they are culpable for heresy, yes. I can't speak for every Paulist, but I do know some of them to be manifestly heretical.
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« Reply #65 on: May 27, 2008, 08:20:16 PM »

Although it pained me, I started a poll at CA regarding the Pope's altar setting to see how many understand the significance, I guess not much, 100 views and 7 responses, including "why would one want to"...


A stiff neck and ignorant people...
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« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2008, 08:24:32 PM »

including "why would one want to"...

*rolls eyes*


The parish my parents attend, even though it is a very modern building and it might "look out of place", has adopted the Pope's altar setting.
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« Reply #67 on: May 27, 2008, 08:43:48 PM »

In fact, according to some of the Orthodox here, especially the Old Calendar members, some of the positions held by all of the R Catholic bishops are interpreted as being heretical. Using your private interpretation of this canon, that heretics are automatically excommunicated,  it would then follow that each and every Catholic bishop is excommunicated, which of course, is not true. Regardless of what you or any other anonymous blogger says, the retired bishop is officially in good standing with his diocese in Canada and this can be verified by contacting his diocese. 

Pardon me for saying so, but what illogical nonsense. Since when do Catholics determine heresy based on EO criteria?

Being in "official" (as you call it) good standing does not mean that somebody has not excommunicated himself. Once again, canon 1364. We are not a Church of paper. Catholics do not have free reign with all teachings until/unless they get slapped with an official decree.

De Roo has a long record of heresy in his writings and speeches. Look him up: women priests, moral teachings, the priesthood, the episcopacy, etc. Thank God he is not functioning in any pastoral capacity. To celebrate a sacrilegious Mass (assuming it was valid) for a manifestly schismatic and heretical organization (and to speak at its conference, all off Church property for obvious reasons) is only the icing on the cake. Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, prefect of the Congregation for Bishops, writes, "The activities of 'Call to Action' in the course of these years are in contrast with the Catholic faith due to views and positions held which are unacceptable from a doctrinal and disciplinary standpoint. . . Thus to be a member of this Association or to support it, is irreconcilable with a coherent living of the Catholic Faith."

Lastly, that display at the CTA conference was not at all typical. I've never been to a Mass even close to that, and neither has anyone I know. It didn't even happen in a church.

 Roll Eyes Honestly.

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« Reply #68 on: May 27, 2008, 10:09:59 PM »

If they are culpable for heresy, yes. I can't speak for every Paulist, but I do know some of them to be manifestly heretical.
Sorry, but I really don't see where an individual such as yourself, with basically no apparent credentials except that of an anonymous internet blogger,  is authorised to determine who is and who is not excommunicated from the R. Catholic Church. You simply do not have the authority to make that determination and decision for the R Catholic Church. I will go with what the R Catholic diocese of Boston says and with what the RC diocese of Victoria, Canada says.  And all indications from the diocesan officials are that these individuals are in good standing in the RCC today.
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« Reply #69 on: May 27, 2008, 10:49:35 PM »

Talk about doing things backwards (not to speak of  belated! and unsolicited! and unqualified!) but to whom it may concern: I am now officially announcing that I have actually viewed the OP youtube clip! Shocked Quite a feeling when those monstrous puppets enter the room! One feels awkwardness, discomfort, embarrassment! I can't imagine how strange those mostly elderly folks must surely feel about this invasion of over-sized stuffed puppets! Most disconcerting!  I'm very glad I'm Orthodox!
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« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2008, 11:01:57 PM »

Talk about doing things backwards (not to speak of  belated! and unsolicited! and unqualified!) but to whom it may concern: I am now officially announcing that I have actually viewed the OP youtube clip! Shocked Quite a feeling when those monstrous puppets enter the room! One feels awkwardness, discomfort, embarrassment! I can't imagine how strange those mostly elderly folks must surely feel about this invasion of over-sized stuffed puppets! Most disconcerting!  I'm very glad I'm Orthodox!

Since it was the closing "liturgy" at a 'Call to Action' conference, they had likely seen it before.  The organisation has been excommunicated, which they appealed, but it was upheld by the Congregation for Bishops in 2006.
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« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2008, 11:08:00 PM »

Since it was the closing "liturgy" at a 'Call to Action' conference, they had likely seen it before.  The organisation has been excommunicated, which they appealed, but it was upheld by the Congregation for Bishops in 2006.

Thanks for patiently explaining to someone who simply hasn't been following/paying attention...but I'm still sitting here shaking my head in disbelief...I mean, those puppets weren't even nice-looking puppets... Huh
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« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2008, 11:23:10 PM »

Thanks for patiently explaining to someone who simply hasn't been following/paying attention...but I'm still sitting here shaking my head in disbelief...I mean, those puppets weren't even nice-looking puppets... Huh

Oh I know, they are the things of nightmares.   Tongue
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« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2008, 11:26:12 PM »

Talk about doing things backwards (not to speak of  belated! and unsolicited! and unqualified!) but to whom it may concern: I am now officially announcing that I have actually viewed the OP youtube clip! Shocked Quite a feeling when those monstrous puppets enter the room! One feels awkwardness, discomfort, embarrassment! I can't imagine how strange those mostly elderly folks must surely feel about this invasion of over-sized stuffed puppets! Most disconcerting! 

I doubt they felt strange. You see, it wasn't a Mass at a parish church. It was a Mass at a conference of a group known as Call to Action. It's one of those notorious "Catholic" pressure groups lobbying the Church to abandon its teachings on a whole variety of issues (others include Catholics for a Free Choice, Dignity, Roman Catholic Womenpriests, Voice of the Faithful, and the Rainbow Sash Movement). CtA does not hold its events on Church property (which is just as well, since they frequently portray themselves as the Israelites against the Pharoah in the Vatican).

The attendees at that Mass were mostly either members of CtA or supporters. They are all elderly because they've been waiting for the Church to change her teachings since their salad days in the 1960s and 1970s. How did their liturgical celebration get so ridiculous? They've been out of communion with the Church (in spirit, i.e., in reality) for 40 years...a branch sundered from the tree will eventually wither.

I fear that they are so ideologically hardened in their rebellion that it will be very difficult for them to be reconciled. Undecided



[MTA: Oops, Friul already answered. Thanks, Friul!]
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« Reply #74 on: May 28, 2008, 03:54:42 AM »

For what my ten cents is worth:

The short answer to "could it happen to the Orthodox" is this: It would be a particularly foolish priest or bishop who would even try. If he did, he would be called before his superior, pronto, and asked to explain himself. Chances are, even if the infraction was relatively minor, he may well have to serve out a period of penance (such as withdrawal of the right to hear confessions).

If anything as "innovative" or grotesque as a "puppet liturgy" was ever to take place in an Orthodox church, I would bet anything that the gathered laity would rise up and prevail upon the errant priest right there and then to cease and desist. If he's lucky, he might not even be frogmarched out of the church by the yiayies or the babushki!  laugh

To be fair to our RC friends on this forum, not all of the RC world is as loopy as some of those in the US. Standards are being maintained in at least some parts of the world. A parallel would be the case in late 2004 of a Roman Catholic priest in the Australian city of Brisbane who, of his own volition, performed a number of baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer", instead of "the Father, Son and Holy Spirit". Not surprisingly, the Archbishop of Brisbane ordered the errant priest to stop this practice immediately.

The highest-ranking Roman Catholic cleric in Australia, the Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell, also entered the fray, as was his responsibility. He ensured an investigation was instituted to determine the sacramental validity or otherwise of these baptisms. The Vatican has now decreed that this unconventional wording renders such baptisms invalid, as it is not according to the canonical Trinitarian "formula", therefore people thus baptised must be baptised again to restore sacramental validity.

The scary thing is that the errant priest had conducted such baptisms for something like ten years, and was only brought to account when the grandfather of a child to be baptised heard the wording, and approached his local bishop with his concerns.
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